R2 Upgrades and R3 Shims

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:00 pm

This is a quote from PVD over at the vendors corner of ncdsa:

"the developement of this truck has not stopped. the R3 is basically in it's final form, but some very minor changes have been made for improved performance.

any R2 customers and early R3 customers should contact me to purchase R2 update kits, and no-cost R3 shims.
-p "

Could anyone explain what both these upgrades fix? My R3's have a bad "tick / click" while turning does the shim fix this problem? It seems as if the grommet hole on the R3s is a tad larger than the R2s and the grommet does not fit as tight.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:21 pm

that noise in the R3s isn't the grommet (bushin right?)...it is in the kingpin and yes the shims are the solution. Peter made ones in 1mm and .5mm. Basically they go in the kingpin assembly between the outerwasher and the pivot boss/bearing. They ake up the slack in the assembly. One 1mm will do it or two .5mms will.

As for the R2 upgrade kit....peter has explained to me why i need that over and over...but I've never had any issues with the R2 kingpin assembly. If anything my R2s have a more "solid" feel. I do know that this upgrade kit basically puts the R3 kingpin assembly into the R2. Peter can explain it I am sure.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2003-07-24 17:45 ]

Noah Heinle · Post by **Noah Heinle** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:32 pm

If you take the bushing out of an R2 and try to find any play in the hanger and kingpin assembly, you probably wont. (unless you're Vlad) At least I haven't after several months of use. The R3's, however, have a little slop. If you take the bushing out, you might find that the hanger will move (slightly) along the kingpin; it's just not tight. Applying the shims isn't too tough and it definitely solves THIS problem.

But I don't think the shims will stop the "tick/click." Honestly, I think the shims might make the noise worse by tightening the whole thing up. I've only put the shims into one of my R3's. The second truck, for some reason doesn't seem to have enough play to require them (although it's not as tight as I'd like). The truck WITH the shims clicks loudly. The other makes a less consistent and much quieter click. Last night, I removed the shims and sure enough, the click remained, but was less consistent and quieter. I'd rather the noise than the slop, so I put the shims back and the click came back louder. No big deal to me. The noise doesn't seem to me like it affects the performance of the truck. I doubt it's slow or dangerous.

My guess is that the noise is a result of the bushing tension plate shifting in a turn. To my eye, the yellow bushings look very slightly smaller than the greens, but using green bushings doesn't stop the click either. Maybe the bushing socket in the hanger is a little larger than the R2's? The bushings, regardless of color, don't seem as snug as they do in the R2's. Maybe it's the preload screws are momentarily being pushed out of their holes in the tension plate? My click is two-way. I lean the truck into a turn and when it hit's a certain point, it pops. When I release that turn, it pops again before returning to center. This is why I think it's the tension plate or the bushing or something in the hanger.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:45 pm

Ok...I too have this "click click" on my rear R3. it has nothing to do with the shims/kingpin though. Noah is right it is in the bushings. I ride my rear R3 with a 92a yellow bushing and about 4-5 fullturns of pre-load on it. I've noticed i get a "click-click" on my rear truck in a few situations;

1) My first few runs in the session. before everything warms up.
2) Colder days
3)After I take the bushing out and adjust/clean the truck and put it back in.

Now i think those 3 things share something. if you look at the design of the haner around the bushing of the R2 and R3 there is a big difference. The R3 has ALOT more open room in there. That in turn is allowing the bushing to move around more in there during the turn. it is also allowing the bushing to deform differently than it did in the R2. With the R2 the bushing was packed in the hanger tightly with no-where really to go so in a turn it compressed more and "mushed" out the sides less. That in turn gives the R2s a "snappier" feel, quicker RTC, which some people like (while the R3 has floppier (reletively) quicker edge to edge feel with slightly less RTC). With the R3 the bushing does the opposite, it DOES compress...but mushes out more...this mushing I think is the "click click": noise. It is either the bushing moving on ghr pivot boss or the bushing getitng pinched by the hanger (I've noticed increased bushing wear with R3s). However after you ride the truck a bit and warm the bushing up it seems to stop for the rest of the session...in my experience.

All of this adds t the fact that the R2 and the R3 complement each other nicely. I know peter sees the R3 as a design evolution and fix over the R2...but I think those changes actually made the R3 slightly different. I see the R2 as th more stable (tracker RT-S) truck and the R3 as the more responsive (RT-X) truck. I've told this to other people and they think I am nuts...but I have maybe 5 months solid on both R2s and R3s and given the course or board type i make the truck choice...

It is nice to have options!!!!

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:21 pm

Noah:
My guess is that the noise is a result of the bushing tension plate shifting in a turn. To my eye, the yellow bushings look very slightly smaller than the greens, but using green bushings doesn't stop the click either. Maybe the bushing socket in the hanger is a little larger than the R2's? The bushings, regardless of color, don't seem as snug as they do in the R2's. Maybe it's the preload screws are momentarily being pushed out of their holes in the tension plate? My click is two-way. I lean the truck into a turn and when it hit's a certain point, it pops. When I release that turn, it pops again before returning to center. This is why I think it's the tension plate or the bushing or something in the hanger.

That was my feeling exactly. That because the bushing socket is larger on the R3 than the R2. Both the bushing and the bushing tension plate don’t fit as snug. I am using both yellow and green bushings with not much difference to affect this problem that I can see.

My gut feeling is that a newer version bushing and bushing tension plate that fits the bushing socket more precisely would be a better fix.

It would be best to have a completely quite truck for the price.

[ This Message was edited by: Glenn on 2003-07-25 11:48 ]

Noah Heinle · Post by **Noah Heinle** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:10 pm

On 2003-07-25 11:21, Glenn S wrote:
A newer version bushing and bushing tension plate that fits the bushing socket more precisely would be a better fix.

It would be best to have a completely quite truck for the price.

[ This Message was edited by: Glenn on 2003-07-25 11:48 ]

Amen.

Not only should the bushings and plate be resized to fit better, but I'm still seeing a need for MORE bushings. I have one 80a that is like gold to me....It's ridiculous that I need to protect one 10 cent piece of urethane to make my $600 trucks feel good (to me.)

I think the next run of trucks should include at least 3 PAIRS of EACH duro bushing. They do wear out ya know. And they don't have replacements at my local shop.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:26 pm

76a bushings please!

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:44 pm

I've been using 82A/90A for a while. 80A was slower on cyber, so I never bothered to try it on TS. I'll try it this week. New bushings wear out (pack) in 2 days. Enough to develop slop. The only solutions are to tighten the preload (and change the compression distance) or get a new bushing. I've been using the same front bushing since day one and it's still OK. It doesn't compress (pack) beyond a certain point and it doesn't wear out. My feeling is that it is going to last for years. Just like Stimulators.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:54 pm

vlad...I have the exact opposite of you. I am riding the same 92a bushing in the back as I have from day 1. The fronts I have been going through quiickly though, they compress and do just what you say about yoru rear ones...

go figure.

Noah Heinle · Post by **Noah Heinle** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:01 pm

That's another good point about preload adjustment....even in the R3's, you can get rid of the slop in the hanger/kingpin by tightening the preload. But if you don't want any preload, you have to install the shims or live with a bit of play.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:03 pm

No, no opposite. "The Cyber" rear bushing was 86A. The regular rear bushing was 88A. It's now 90A. My set-up is constantly changing. TS is now 56/30. The bushings stay the same.

R2s are no longer available despite the demand. The bushings might be gone soon as well. So, I'll ride mine till the trucks are no more. Which is not that far away. The "upgrade" kit might prolong the pleasure.

Troy Smart · Post by **Troy Smart** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:03 pm

It annoys me that you have almost worn out your PVD's and I have yet to wear out a single set of wheels. Ever.

Get a job.
Punk.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:38 pm

troy was that post directed at me or Vlad....I've gotten e-mails and phone calls that go eitherway?????????

Troy Smart · Post by **Troy Smart** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:33 am

Well, it was directed at Vlad but since you brought it up...
No, actually these are just the ramblings of a bitter and jealous man who must constantly work to support his 10 kids (or is it 3?? I'm not sure anymore...seems like 10) and his habit of spending money on toys he never uses.
Poor, poor, pitiful me.
Thank God for beer. Sweet, sweet nectar.
Here's to you.

(this smilie is supposed to be drinking a beer but since I don't know how to do that, use your imagination)

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:08 am

Troy, I can’t help you with PVDs as I only had enough $$ for the superior R2s that everyone likes so much and that are no longer made. But here are some beer smilies.
<center>

</center>

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:38 am

Yes I truly feel that a new better fitting bushing/grommet is the best way to go for the R3s.

If you put a bushing in an R2 with no tension on the preload it seems perfect. With bushings being 2a in duro apart I don't have to put much tension on the bushing before I just decide to switch it out.

Whereas the R3s are very sloppy when there is no tension on the preload screws. Mine have quite a bit of free play when there is no tension on the bushing. I would think that having to put so much compression on the bushing just to get the slop out would also make for bushings wearing out faster. Because there is tension on the bushing when it is doing nothing.

This is too bad really for those of us who have both the R2's and R3s and bushing that fit the R2 only.

Why was the bushing slot made larger on the R3s? What what the thought behind this? I felt that the R2 were a perfect fit in regards to bushing and bushing slot.

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:36 pm

I dont think the slot is larger. I think I ground down the bushings too much the night I did them. I did them all by hand using a caliper but still by hand none the less. Mabey pete can trim a few new ones and leave them a hair oversized and see what happens. TK

Noah Heinle · Post by **Noah Heinle** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:27 pm

The slot is actually smaller due to the rounded corners, but it's deeper than the R2's. I tried two tension plates...even 3 to fill the void, but the pop is still as loud as ever. I don't understand why ALL R3's don't make the noise. And Glenn, you're right on about the R3's REQUIRING preload. Just try to ride them with out it. You can't. Seems like regression in design. What's the fix?

R2's just fit better.

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:01 pm

I've not had a chance to skate much lately because of work but I "thought" the bushing had more room around the sides on the R3 as well as being deeper.

Maybe the first try at a fix should be a custom metal/aluminimum/(TI

) preload plate that fit the slot almost exactly and would also take up the space at the top of the bushing. But this fix would be so that the original bushings would work with both the R2 an R3

A better fix for the R3 would probably be a taller tighter fitting bushing.

Both my trucks make this noise, the front one being much louder. When I get some time off work and can skate I'll switch the hangers around and see if it makes a difference.

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:19 am

Has anybody gotten a response from Peter in regards to any of these issues?

I emailed Peter shortly after I got my trucks, about the clicking sound, and never heard back from him. This was a few months ago.

Then recently a few weeks ago I emailed him when I saw a post he had made at ncdsa about the R3 shims and other fixes for the R2s. I've emailed him twice since then.

He is not getting back. I wish he'd address these issues or at least email back that he's at least got my emails.

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:09 am

You guys arent going to believe this but I actually like the clicking sound. I try to make it go faster and faster as I zoom through the cones. I think pete is a genius for integrating the clickometer into the R3's . Why do you think ballerinas use metronomes? Anyway , if you can tell me how to get the clicks louder I would appreciate it. I'd ask Pete but I can't get in touch with him. TK ...Clicking my way to the podium.

Brady Mitchell · Post by **Brady Mitchell** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:30 am

The issues with the R2`s and R3`s have been fixed....

Just get some Radikals.

No seriously though, I have some swiss g-truck clones that click on a hard turn. It doesn`t effect the performance but irks the hell outa me.

So much so, I`m buying the R trucks (the one`s that don`t click)

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:43 am

Brady, they only click if you RIDE them.

Brady Mitchell · Post by **Brady Mitchell** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:09 am

Nice dig TK. Slightly Eric Groffesque though. I`m not into cliques, be they from the west coast or nor-east.

I did try the PVDs when PV was down here and the Radikals that were available at the time. I wasn`t comfortable with either of them. Maybe with time I might of adjusted to them (either or) but it was when I tried the latest version that Mark had a couple of months ago, I got hooked.

It`s probably just a personal preferance thang. I`m sure the PVD`s are a great truck. No ill meant. Just a lil ball busting.

Speaking of which.....Mark, Got nips???

Slappy Maxwell · Post by **Slappy Maxwell** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:54 pm

Brady don't be a donkey.

If you pay attention you'll see this board is broken into forums.

1. If you want to discuss Radikals go to that forum. If you want ask the manufacturer of Radikals a question email him privately.

2. If you are going to bust balls. Grow them first.

3. (and most importantly) Nobody cares what a board collector thinks about performance.

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:00 pm

East coast clique??? Dude I'm from New Hamshire, who should I clique with the cows? The only clicking here is from my PVD's as I zoom through the cones.

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:01 pm

Got an email reply from PV this morning. I guess he's been busy at work and living with his stuff in a storage facility. Maybe my posting here motivated a reply

But I understand how his time could be taken by moving and stuff.

He thinks it is the tensioning plate hitting the two set screws.

So a new better fitting tensioning plate with set screws are in order when he finds the time.

Other than that I think the trucks are great.

Noah Heinle · Post by **Noah Heinle** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:35 pm

Mr. Dong believes the same thing. ...That the tension plate is hitting the set screws. I'd bet a beer that this is why Pete said this is causing the noise. I say it's not. The same noise occurs with NO set screws. Rather, I now think it's the size of the tension plate. Because it's thin enough, it's popping up over the lip of the hanger and 'snapping' back down. I have pics that show even scratches from the plate on both sides of the bushing hole which I believe prove this theory. But who the hell cares? Skatem.

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:26 pm

Noah,TK,Chris,
I do care because the noise makes me feel that something is breaking or catastrophic is going to happen. I don't want to be worrying about the trucks when skating.

For the price of the R3s, and the fact that this version was to be the newer and more improved version, I think that a new and improved "tensioning plate/pre-load plate"(what ever you call it) and set-screws is in order at the very least.

Are you guys sponsored or something? I guess that If I got them for free or at a very reduced price I'd praise them too

On 2003-08-22 15:35, Noah Heinle wrote:
Mr. Dong believes the same thing. ...That the tension plate is hitting the set screws. I'd bet a beer that this is why Pete said this is causing the noise. I say it's not. The same noise occurs with NO set screws. Rather, I now think it's the size of the tension plate. Because it's thin enough, it's popping up over the lip of the hanger and 'snapping' back down. I have pics that show even scratches from the plate on both sides of the bushing hole which I believe prove this theory. But who the hell cares? Skatem.

[ This Message was edited by: Glenn on 2003-08-22 16:27 ]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:32 pm

glenn...I'm no longer involved in this discussion. My R3s don't click much at all, when they do click it is at the beginning of a session, only on my rear truck and within a few turns it has worked itself out. I don't think it is the preload plate, it isn't a metal on metal sound. The other thing I noticed is that the BLUE R3s click a hell of alot more than the red ones, not that the red ones don't click too. That makes me think it has something to do with the pigments in the anodizing and the urethane of the bushings.

Oh and Noah's R3s are the noisiest damn things ever and they feel ALOT different than my R3s do, and that isn't just in the way Noah likes his deck setup compared to mine....

and no I am not sponsored by PVD - nor am I sponsored by anyone anymore (and I like it that way).

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2003-08-22 16:36 ]

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:48 pm

Glenn, I get all of my PVD's free. Radikals Too. I also get my Roes for free and all my Turner Wheels Free. I went to fill my tank today and the guy wouldnt take my money "free" was all he said. Had a pizza tonight and , you guessed it...FREE!!! The only person who makes me pay is Chaput but I'm working on him. Live FRee or Die, TK

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:56 pm

I just did some checking. Seems like in the last batch of clicky PVDs Glenn was THE ONLY ONE who paid for a set! Man do I feel gipped. I thought I was PVD's special little helper. Seems he's got a whole stable of studs he supplies.

Hey Pete, hows the new digs in Ca? TK

[ This Message was edited by: Terence Kirby on 2003-08-22 16:56 ]

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:03 pm

Chris, you are too involved. In fact I bet you can't keep your beady little eyes from checking this thread. In fact I bet you're reading this right now and thinking "that damned TK, he owes me a hundred bucks".

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:04 pm

I spent 19 years riding on the same set of Kryptonic C-65s and Park Riders. I rode the same GMN Bearings for 19 years. I rode the same bushings and pivot cups for 19 years non stop. I rode the same Indy and Tracker trucks for 19 years without a break. I had the same Icks and Turners for 1.9 decades.

You people are worried about a little clicking noise? HAH! Take a spin on one of my setups. Then you'll fully appreciate the meaning of the word "road noise!"

Be appreciative . . . be very appreciative!

Glenn S · Post by **Glenn S** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:49 pm

Hey Adam T., what happened to your post?

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:40 am

TK....when we race at the worlds I guess there will be two sets of clicking sounds.

Only mine will be clicking faster!

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:34 am

"All I'm getting is some sort of... clicking...., Will you be a dear and sit over there?"

---David Spade in The Coneheads Movie while working as an immigrations officers and addressing some newer immigrants.

Mine never clicked when I had them.

I owe Noah $75 bucks (prize money from Boston).
Peter Verdone $250 (yes I bought them- paid half and still looking for that extra cash to pay this one off)
Geezer X $50 (for the coolest aftermarket work ever- you know its racing when we have an aftermarket)

So to answer your question Glenn...I am sponsored.....sort of....except I have to pay it back.

[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-08-22 21:48 ]

Troy Smart · Post by **Troy Smart** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:24 am

I don't hear any clicking at all. But then again I don't have a set of PVD's.
I have Trackers.
What I do hear sometimes is something that sounds like a squeeze box version of "Rainy days and Mondays" by The Carpenters coming from my rear truck.
This is bad because not only is it a depressing song but it also sticks in your head, sometimes for weeks.
The only thing that drives it out is when I rub a stimulator against my teeth which sounds like something from Electric Boogaloo.
Hope this helps.

Terry Kirby · Post by **Terry Kirby** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:23 am

Mr Stride, nice of you to visit The Ground Effect Zone. Home of the really expensive trucks that continue to astound, confound,amaze, and piss off people from all over the globe.About the you clicking faster than me thing. Thats really very funny, you see, unless you are one of those tribesmen from New Guinia you will never ever click faster than me again. Tally Hoe, TK

PS , did you get yours for free too?!!!

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:48 am

Thanks TK...As for paying for stuff, I'm pretty lucky to be able to choose from the best gear out there. I remember last year getting that first set off you (paid for), trading in a motel room like a drug deal was going down. Since then I've used PVD on my medium/tight board (a Roe) and really like the extra grip they give me. What they represent to me is a realisation that individuals such as Verdone can analise things and come up with a fantastic solution that improves the riding times for skaters.
And I have been taking lessons in the Khosian languages of southern Africa, in which speakers use a distinctive clicking sound and particulary Kw 'awe, a Khosian language of south-western Botswana. My slalom runs have been translated as "I can't believe how fast he's going, he's got TK beat or sure".

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