Question on technique...

[Guest]

"Did I mention...WATCH THAT BACK END- as it can come around awful fast if you aren't monitoring it."

OK, how do I do that exactly if I'm facing
forward?

Someone told me you use the balls of
your toes on your rear foot to just 'guide'
the deck around the cones. Like, there's
not alot of weight on it. If that's true,
aren't you always at risk of the
backend sliding out?

[John Gilmour]

Oh yeah- that picture looks like Hombrechtikon the Double special slalom event. The speeds of the double special slalom were higher than those of the GS. The hill was not so steep that TS pumping added nothing to your speed so the speeds were fastest for the special slalom.

If a hill were so steep that you would only "slow down" to pump TS then GS would likely be the faster event.

BP was a fast guy on TS on steeps- problem was- few were in his league. But hopefully with more info available people will progress faster.

You see this in todays vert and street skateboard where kids analzye videos and become proficient very quickly through imitation.

Slalom is much the same- look at how quickly Dylans, and Tk's slalom styles evolved.

I don't think slalom has much to do with overall fitness level or age as it does to do with practice.

[John Gilmour]

Brian M. I was off snowboarding- not ignoring you.

**************disclaimer*****************
The below information is intended for Newbies ONLY and under no circumstances should any racer within 10 places of me read the following information or posess it in any form be it digital or as a printout to be taken to a slalom course. It is not to be distributed nor talked about with anyone racing pro on the FCR tour- or even any top open level riders. Once this information got out of my hands and ended up with Mike Maysey that had disastrous effects on my placing at the Battle By the Bay competition against Mike Maysey. Again no skilled top slalomer is to read this. Or you're cheating.
****************************************

I do agree with Vlad that pumping uphill is something you should do. Also likely it would be great rehab at minimal risk. First pump up a very slight uphill. Then after you can't increase your speed any further attempt to pump upn a slightly steeper hill. Always start pumping when you already have speed (otherwise it will be frustrating) as you get better try pumping with less "starting speed".

By learning to pump uphill you are maximizing your "low gear". AS you increase the steepness of the uphill you are learning to work a lower gear.

I would suggest that you learn to pump on flat after that. That would help your next range of gearing. (now if you haven't noticed at this point.... you'll see you are starting to use a different type of stance or different body angulation and muscle groups for each type of pump/hill) continue modifying yours stance for a given speed on the flat to maximize your pumping speed on flats.

Now.....the good shit.

Wear all your protective gear- and a little extra. Also go through your durometers of wheels available choose the ones that give the most traction (note this may not be the softest compund). Do this on a big long hill with varying grades.

Pump downhill.

Pump fast.

Maximize your speed for the downhill grade.

Be smart- use your head- don't be stupid- don't get injured, approach your limits slowly and be ready to back off in an instant.

Now increase the grade. (sounds like skiing).

Pump to top speed- modify your stance and technique as needed (stance will be more centered- hips will face downhill more) Watch that back end.. Watch that back end.

Did I mention...WATCH THAT BACK END- as it can come around awful fast if you aren't monitoring it.

Whe you are on a hill that is soooo fast that pumping adds nothing....your done. You've gone through and optimized all your gearing.

[Henry Hester]

Nice reading JG.

[Vlad Popov]

My humor is out of tune today. . Must be exhaustion from the gym.

Ridoli lift/ed(s?)/snowboard/ed(s?), Luca climb/ed/s, Piercy skied. There is no way to stay competitive doing absolutely nothing.

Lighten up = tighten up. To each his own. No TeeAss in US? Let's go to Switzirland!

[George Gould]

Oh you guys! sorry, i lost my server in the middle of editing. just funnin' with ya, could let the "don't kill the hill thing go."

Back to technique. I don't think it can be imitated. I have a few observations. Charlie Ransom has been skating, surfing and snowboarding for over 30 years. how is a person going to imitate that? take into consideration Siale's total go for it attitude. He just goes! some of it is mental. I think body composition has much to do with it. naturally thin, muscular etc. Richie Carrasco picked me up in a bear hug, I am over 200 pounds! don't underestimate physical strength. it is quite obvious that Paul Dunn has been lifting. it would be interesting to see a study on older athletes. it would be more interesting to see one on slalomers in general. i wonder about actual physical strength, VO2 and stuff like that. i have seen some studies on divers and bicycle racers, but never on skateboarders. one other thing, slalom is a head game as well. older guys are sometimes able to deal with injuries and aliments better. we adjust accordingly. style and/or technique change according to the course, hill and amount of adrenaline and or fun pumping through your veins. some days you got it and some you don't. when you got it and it's good you might even win.

Even back in the day many of those guys trained hard, and an equal amount just skated and partied. Some of it has to be natural ability and balance. Much of it is practice and repetition.

[Terry Kirby]

Don't lighten up, TIGHTEN up!

[Vlad Popov]

George, I heard it was a very fast and fun special slalom course (hybrid). That what the fun slalom was (and hopefully is) to most world slalomers. Fast, technical and not dangerous. The course which a great skater wins by his physic/technique/strategy, not mass and pumping. I'd rather race something like this. But to each his own.

Bobby Piercy liked 6ft on 11% grade road. It was his favorite course only 2 years in doing slalom. People who never get there can't appreciate it.

[Glenn S]

George Gould wrote:
That hill would look like a lot of fun if there weren't so many cones on it. In other words open it up a little, make a fun and fast hybrid. Let the hill breath already. i look up the course and see it does look more open. so maybe that is a 20 cone stinger?

Sorry Vlad, nice post. I just had to beat somebody else to that one.

Heaven forbid George. Then it would just be another longboard Hybrid/Downhill event :roll: .

I was thinking just the opposite. We need to see more technical courses like that. WLAC TS is a little more open than that and the hill a bit steeper, but equipment is probably faster than it was back when that picture was taken.

I say let there be more technical and tighter slalom. I can see adding a few wider offsets to break things up a bit



incorporating some good carving sections like the above picture (damn that's a good carve), and not just a wiggle fest.

[Vlad Popov]

Ok.
I’ll try.

It is impossible to run cones successfully if one needs to lift a heel just to clear the cones.
The heel goes up and down for pumping the board; there is no other purpose of this “Euro” trick.
Running cones before being able to pump uphill complicates matters and prolongs a learning phase. Sometimes for life.

Different set-ups allow for different amount of pressure to be distributed over the front and the back truck. Normally, if the heel stomping is used, the rear foot is a drive and is positioned more perpendicular to the board then the front foot (that is used more for steering). This stance is wider than the stance that is preferable/used for running tight courses on steep hills (ala Gilmour stance). Back and forth weight transitions aren’t necessary when running straight courses (after getting to speed), so staying centered and pushing it to the traction limit is the main task.

So yes, I use this kinda heel-up-and-down deal, but for pumping the board, not clearing the cones. Put too much weight on the front foot and you’re going down. Front truck is not something to abuse.

Mr. Sidler appeared to have longer feet and no problem running 5.5 ft. cones. He was one of the fastest slalomers before he retired.
Shown here racing Sergey Moshchenkov in Switzerland. Note slope, technicality and “tightness”.



Vlad.

[Adam Trahan]

Brian,

Try posting a new thread with your question.

adam

[Brian Morris]

anybody??

[Brian Morris]

I have a question for you Gilmore,

I ride a wide open surf stance with my front foot facing almost parallel with the rail of the board, and the back foot almost perpendicular with the rail of the board, yet i find myself driving and weighting my front foot more than my back. Sometimes, when I'm running wider courses, I lift my back heel, but not for pumping, but more to get my heel out of the way of passing cones. This is a drastic change from before my accident, where i rode almost a modified parallel stance, and before that my stance was how ever I could position my feet before the first cone. In my new stance, i found myself using the injuried leg much more, when before I depended more on my back leg. Has anybody used this type of stance before?

Brian

[John Gilmour]

I'd have to agree with Eggers that Jani's style is the most developed. (hard to imitate and make it work)

If you break it down into its various components- it is pretty wild.

-NOW THE TECHIE STUFF- do not bother to read unless you are slalom obessessed and have spent over $1000 on gear last year- blew $thousands racing, and sometimes practice until there isn't enough light left to run cones.

Jani uses conservation of angular momentum to get a whip like effect with his arms, and also keeps his center of mass through the shortest line drawn through the cones.

Lots of use of calf muscles in Jani's and Ransom's skating style. Which I found interesting as I went to the gym the other day and did a few calf presses and found them to be one of the more powerful muscle groups (pretty strong for their size)- as well as being able to do finer motor movements.

Chicken is a big guy- and to him the offsets are actually a little smaller. Looking at Nathan vs Chicken (both side stance) you'll see that Nathan has to run offsets more like a Super G. I do find Chicken's style very interesting as it is an adopted surf stance yet he does very well with it.

In regards to your question Adam- the best display of center of mass is in the Freewheeling video by Scott Ditrich where you'll see Bobby Piercy running some tight cones- in regular speed and slow motion.

If you are to look at BP's arms- they seem to be making quick balance corrections and are held low. His knees and ankles handle most of the distance of the offsets. You'll notice that his center of mass area (navel) is almost stationary with little tilt during turns. This is about as picture perfect as center of mass handleing can get for a tight course. The arcs are small in terms of the number of degrees traveled through them - (ie 180 degree arc is a half circle.) as there is little offset to the course.

Piercy's "parallel stance" is very symetric so there is little need for twisting the torso. This stance is great- not for generating speed- but for processing cones at very high speeds. You'll see Dunn and Maysey riding modified parallel which seems to work well for them at the end of the course when they are riding at higher speeds.

Ransom's and Soderhall's stance works well for handling ofsets while staying close to the cones and not knocking them over with your calves. You can take a tight line through offset cones with this stance. (look at Mollica's Catalina DVD and see Ransom run very close to the edge of the cone through offsets)

Jani also has added downforce with the use of his hands as well as maintaining control of his lateral momentum.

When I saw Jani skate at Hombrechtikon in 91' most of the spectators were commenting on the "schralping" sound made by his wheels at the top of the course- he was generating speed whilst at the limit of traction.

You could hear the urethane rippling on the pavement. I haven't heard anyone else do this other than Luca and Gatti and their scalping sounds more like a whooshing sound.

Jani's sound peaks much louder and for a shorter time. Jani's skating at Morro Bay wasn't as fast as I have seen him before and the cone distances obviously wouldn't allow for this rapid "schralping". This sound builds in force like adding force to a swing.

I guess the only analogy I could draw is this- if you were to jump in your sneakers from side to side you might find that at small distances (2-6 inches)you can't jump back and forth that quickly. And at wider spacings of say 24-36 inches again you can't go back and forth that quickly. But there is a spacing in between there where you can really jump back and forth the quickest. Perhaps this is in some way the "resonant frequency" of our "leg system". You'll see that this is also the spacing where you can exert the most force on the ground BOTH laterally AND in terms of downward force. Also you can conserve some of the force from the last jump and add it to your next. (Perhaps that is why we see tighter cone spacing for flatland TS)

So this translated into more forces being transmitted through the board- through the trucks- and to the wheels and the ground. Enough so you could hear Jani's "scralping" sound.

Chaput uses his arms for counterbalancing- but since he does not curl his arms and hands inward towards his body at the end of the "stroke" (and Chaput drops his hips) he doesn't get that whip like accelleration like I saw Soderhall get in Europe.

The best example (real world demo) I have of this is to sit on a bar stool and then have someone spin you around with your arms outstreatched away from the axis of rotaion. Now as you bring your arms in you will start to accellerate. Conservation of angular momentum teaches us this. And you'll see figure skaters and also Ritchie Carasco use this while doing 360's.

I watched Ritchie's style in slalom develop and you can see that he is concerned about using angular momentum to generate speed. Look at his winning WLAC run and you'll see him doing it for a few key cones that shoots him forward. Since Ritchie is heavy he carries more mass around his center of mass and it takes more force to change his momentum- this also helps him to add to his momentum as it is more stable as he adds to it. (It would be harder to knock Ritchie off balane in a 360 spin than Dan Gesmer)

Now here is where it gets interesting.

Sit on the same barstool with a bicycle rim (Weighted preferably) spin the bike tire upright(you hold the axle on each side). Now have someone spin you and spin the wheel (hard to do).

You'll notice if you change the orientation of the wheel you'll change your spin rate. there is a sort of "gyro thing" going on here.

Move the wheel in the wrong direction and you can cancel some of your speed- move it in the proper direction and you'll add to your speed. (we have all experienced this if our hands get out of synch when we pump- and it kills our top end speed).

I must sound like a looney.

Anyhow to continue....

The more your center of mass moves (To answer your original question Adam) the more it is like you are shaking the axis of rotation of the bar stool and introducing "Speed killing eddy currents" or "noise" into the system. (a example of this might be a unbalanced wheel in your car).

(best example of this is the Dynabee gyro exerciser from the Sharper image - if you control the rotation precisely you can build speed much more quickly- let it wobble and it takes a long time to build speed)

So how to maximize speed?
Stabilize the torso. (Like Simon Levene)
Reduce arc length of twisting motion. (Simon says)
Make sure your hand/arm movements generate a point of "peak acceleration" that coincides with the rotational moment and directional movement of your steering arc (tighter arcs of more degrees are easier to match- so this technique is more effective to do with tight slalom and of course is useless for super g.)
Make sure your vertical circular component of your arm swing matches.
Also remember that if you direct your turns with your knees like BP or I do that your knee movement is in synch with your torso and arm movement. (and actually there is a tiny bit of "lag" to create a whip effect).

So the funny thing is that you have to work on these things separately and then integrate them into what you were doing before. So you have to unlearn some habits which might have been good for maximizing balance but are bad for gaethering angular momentum.

Also if you have something that you are currently doing that would be in conflict with the new technique...you have to identify that and toss that as well.

As for Chicken- well he is a really strong guy, the looser courses are more to scale with his body size than others, and he is a hell of a skater with more delevoped balance and power skills than the rest of the competition. Andy Macdonald is also a strong guy and though smaller could probably do very well adopting Chicken's style as he could convert his big vert power to downhill power.

I'd expect Ur13, Vlad, to adopt Jani's style whereas I'd expect Noah Heinle and TK to ride more like Hutson. (compact- more steering influenced from the ankles)

Then there is Olson's style- forget it - you get there from here. His ankles are not from this planet.

Adam- post up some video of yourself slaloming through cones and pumping without cones - top speed-and I'll take a look and toss out some guesses.

and in typical Gilmour style I answered your question on center of mass and then went into a long spiel on angular momentum conservation and building.

You'll have days of fun trying to sort this all out.

[Chris Eggers]

Just take a few minutes and watch Janis technique and try to copy it for your style. You´ll never get it as perfect as his, but this is the way.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Eggers on 2003-04-03 02:58 ]</font>

[Terry Kirby]

Adam, I am by no means an expert but I feel I have learned from and seen the best so heres my take. Charlie Ransom and JG hold their waist over the center of the cones and let their legs and board swing out from under them. This to me keeps you pointed down the hill and allows for a straighter line. John also has a knees together whip like pump that is furiously powerful. The feet close, knees together stance leaves little room for mistakes. Johns raw times are always very fast but if he gets off his line just a little cones fly. Ransom drives off his rear foot more than John and he works it like a gas and brake.This really suits his flexibility and strength. For me Johns technique in tight and fast hybred is beautiful. Charlie in GS is equally beautiful. (though not in a gay way) Richie is kind of like a compact version of JG in that his pump is like a whip. I think they have similar styles. Chicken however stands more sideways and hardly ever extends himself , he stays knees bent and just plain goes fsater than everyone. He is also the biggest racer out there and I think this lends to his winning style. What was the question again???

[Adam Trahan]

Ok, I would like to present this to the group.

"What is the prefered positioning of center of mass when racing through a course"

Example: When I am on course, I am attempting to keep my center of mass (point slightly below my belly button) as fluid as possible down the fall line. My legs are extending and contracting to facilitate this fluidity to the center while generating speed. It's all a sort of compromise but the gist is maintaining inertia and building speed while forcing the shortest curves down the fall line through the cones.

I have studied all racers that I can who are on the podium and all have a certain fluidity. Siale, especially has this and I see him as a future threat to the pro ranks.

Paul Dunn has a certain mechanical upper body approach but his center of mass is certainly making a short as possible measurement downline.

Chris Chaput is waving his arms like mad, I think he could benefit from compacting his upper body dynamics but he may loose his downforce technique on pumping, his center of mass certainly follows this fluid placement through the course.

This is my take, now perhaps you could give me yours. I am looking to go as fast as possible, practicing and perfecting technique will make this so.

Please feel free to critique my viewpoint if necessary, I am only looking to progress, not to regress in defense.

Thanks for your response.