Biltins ABEC rating?

[Brady Mitchell]

Seth,
You owe yourself a look at the ncdsa bearing forum.

I was not trying to call you out. I was just trying to make a humorous analogy in regards to this whole thread being about calling Chris out.

If you page back on the ncdsa bearing thread, you`ll find a post that states ALL bearing manus are lying by saying thier bearings are abec 7 as it costs (I don`t have the time now to corredt quuote so I`ll fix later if need be) something like $49 for each bearing rated abec 7. That would mean a total costs of $320 a set. Hmmmm? If there are no true abec 7 bearings, why wasn`t PT`s debated? Or Turner? Or any other brand that sells abec 7 bearings.

You`ll also see posts made by an anonymous poster knocking Ousts by "RR".

On the Rocket website, Ron specifically states that his bearing are better than Ousts.

So reading the beginning of my post above, you`ll see that Chris got caught up in this because of comments made by RR, Slim, and Revert!. Is that Rocket Ron? I did read where he stated his bearings are better than Biltins on the skull and bones site.

My apologies if you took the no dick, no balls comment personally. It was not meant as that.

[Seth Levy]

i dont know about rons stuff on ncdsa as i dont follow that site at all. and from what i have seen, he doesnt say that his bearings are better than oust, just cheaper. was that last comment about someone calling me out saying i have no balls supposed to make me see chaputs side of the story in why he hasnt posted? i dont think i fully understood that part. I would like to understand why chaput hasnt made any posts in this topic as it is his product we are talking about. I have the upmost respect for chaput, and i have defended him in arguements with other people who do not like abec 11s. dont make this into some anti rockets, anti oust, anti brand x thread. it is simply asking a very legitamite question to a business man and a skater.

[Troy Smart]

That was classic Brady.
Very nice.
Now, could you please just go away?

(if only it were that easy).

[Brady Mitchell]

Seth,
Let me set some facts straight...

I was the one the pointed out that Ron was touting his bearings as being better than Ousts. I emailed him asking why and after no response, posted the same question back on the ncdsa bearing forum where I first heard of them.

Ron finally emailed me back. I replied to his email that I liked the Biltins because of the spacer/speed ring deally do and he replied back that he was thinking of making some bearings like Biltins.

Next thing I know, Ron is bashing me on ncdsa because he has an anonymous post mixed up with me. He then states on the skull and bones forum that his bearings are better than Biltins.

This all transpired within a couple of days.

On top of that, since I called Ron out on his competition bashing as hype similar to what we`ve seen happen with Ousts, Arab jumps on the bandwagon and starts pissing all over the web.

Quite simple, let your product stand up to normal skaters use and it`ll sell itself just fine. I was referring folks to the Oust website but will do so no longer. Heck, it`s my duty to call out all those facious pigs.

Skate what makes you happy. If you are so upset over skating...don`t!!

PS, there was an ABEC 11 forum already. It was W. Kilmer that called Chris out on posts made by those hyping another product.

As for Chris` comments on Reflex bearings, that came after someone compared Biltins to them.

Now if W. Kilmer said you had no dick, and some guy with a towel around his head said you had no balls, would you respond?

[Vlad Popov]

Mostly inline. And this .

I heard OUCH ABEC 0.1 is the best bearing.

"It's better to be good in one sport then to suck in many". Anatoly Matsukevich.

[Seth Levy]

do it! vlad, do you skate vert or only slalom?

[Vlad Popov]

Faster lines because of bearings? Hmm... gotta try them then!

[Dave Gale]

I've got teens of sets of P.T's I've got several Oust Moc7/9 I've got Swiss I've got Biltins I like them all!! Ed Lynn is a treat to work w/ and I use P.Ts more than any..But DAMN!! Those Biltins are sweet and simple and as fast as virtually any of the competitions..no matter what a # on the sheild says

[Seth Levy]

im not saying for slalom, im saying i was able to hit faster lines with those bearings. i didnt just feel it, others around me could see it

[Vlad Popov]

In the last DC race one set of wheels "felt faster". But was 5% slower then another set of wheels. Feel the difference?

[Seth Levy]

So Ron posts some crap about ABEC 11 products on the skull and bones forum. Better to knock your competition than sell on your own merits...yeah right!!

Nu school mentality....HYPE sells...ha ha ha!!!

THe reason ron posted 'crap' about abec 11s is because many people were asking about them. he didnt just say, abec 11 sucks! buy my bearings!
i have swiss, super swiss (6balls), pleasure tools, gmns, and rons rockets. personally, i do not feel rockets are hype at all! i did at first, but i decided to try a set because they were so cheap. they were faster right out of the package than my swiss bones. faster, cheaper? ill take it! i could care less if someone else is riding them or abec-11s! but to dis (for lack of a better word) on a bearing engineer who you dont even know (or know much about) is far worse, in my opinion, than asking a simple question about a companies bearings on a forum dedicated to that company! why single out abec 11? because this is the abec 11 forum! i think abec 11s are good bearings, very smooth and silent. but you guys are pissing on this guy for asking a question to a respectable company. i think it would be proper for someone who knows chaput to tell him whats happening so he can at least set the record straight.

[W. Kilner]

if Chris' manufacturer is selling him graded bearings, with the attendant price differential, and they're not actually making the grade, then both Chris and consumer are getting screwed.

My point exactly. I am not trying to "call him out". From all the posts I've read of Chaput's, he seems to care about all the minute details of skate products and especially his own products, so I know that he cares about this kind of stuff.

So Ron posts some crap about ABEC 11 products on the skull and bones forum. Better to knock your competition than sell on your own merits...yeah right!!

Okay, I didn't really want to open up this can of worms, but since you brought this up, Chaput <i>has</i> criticized other products (I use the word "criticize" in the kindest way possible). Namely, the Reflex ABS system, which was the first bearing designed around a custom aligned spacer system:

The reflex "system" has two bearings, a spacer and two "T" hubs that are part sleeve and part washer. That'a total of 5 main parts - 3 too many in my opinion. The sleeves are loose on the axle and the bearings are loose on the sleeves. Because the sleeves take up (verical) space on the axle, they have to make the balls much smaller. Because the balls are smaller, you need 9 of them to go around. The bearing itself is also 6mm wide instead of the usual 7mm. I have yet to hear anyone give a positive review of this system, except of course reflex themselves.

I'm not bringing this up to start a flamewar- I really am interested in a (civilized) discussion on this whole matter.

But this might all be moot. I thought that because Chaput is the moderator, he frequented this board, but I was surprised to find out that I was automatically made moderator of the General Bearings Forum by simply asking why there wasn't one :P

[Brady Mitchell]

I looked around on both this site and ncdsa and did not find where Ron can be quoted as saying anything about the Biltins. I did however, find this post by Slim? accusing ABEC 11 of marketing abec7`s as abec3`s...

On 10/25/2003 slim wrote in from 67.125.xxx.xxx:
It seems the biltin abec 3 and 7 are actually the same thing (or at least the 7s test out to be actually abec 3). Here's some info from another forum.

http://www.skullandbonesskateboards.com ... forum=7&11

So Ron posts some crap about ABEC 11 products on the skull and bones forum. Better to knock your competition than sell on your own merits...yeah right!!




Where did I jere that tune before?




How did Slim get hired away from Oust over to Rockets?




Nu school mentality....HYPE sells...ha ha ha!!!

[Nick Krest]

Maybe you can answer me this....have you ever experienced a wheel not spin properly due to bad alignment of bearing/spacer/speed rings with Ousts or Rockets?

Actually, no.

Chris Chaput and I are both equipment weenies (Chris far, FAR, FAR more than I), and we've actually had lengthy spacer discussions (like that's a surprise), online on NCDSA, in email, and on the phone. He's brought me around to his way of thinking.

When Chris hyped the bearing alignment feature of Biltins, I thought he was blowing smoke. After all, if you're still sticking 8mm bore bearings on a 5/16" axle, you're going to get the same amount of play as a regular speedring/bearing/spacer/bearing/speedring combo, right? Well, in theory, I suppose, but the reality of the thing is that Chris is right. The Biltins do act as more of an integrated unit than the aforementioned 5-piece combo. We experienced that firsthand when we did Skateboarding Across America 2003. 2774.4 miles on Biltins and stock Indy 169's, with their 5/16" axles. The bearing-to-axle relationship was nice and tight, no slop, and was hassle-free. None of this should be any news, really, as I've previously reported this on NCDSA in August and September of 2003, at least once, and very likely more than that. Look it up. Do a search. It is clear that Chris has A Better Idea.

For me, I only use Biltins on my ABEC11 wheels. For a wheel like the FlyWheel, it is clearly the only bearing to use, if only to silence the infernal spacer clicking.

The issue that was brought up before by Rich regarding Biltins and PTs was that Ron had apparently tested their ABEC specs, and found them wanting. Now, I don't care about ABEC ratings in skate applications (again, not news, look it up here and on NCDSA), but if Chris' manufacturer is selling him graded bearings, with the attendant price differential, and they're not actually making the grade, then both Chris and consumer are getting screwed. I'll leave it up to Chris to address that. For me, I use the least-expensive Biltins. Sometimes that means the free ones that Chris does with his wheel-and-bearing deals on ABEC11.com

Regarding ABEC ratings in a skate application: both Swiss Bones and Rockets appear to have looser tolerances than even ABEC 1, which would theoretically translate into better performance when dirty than straight ABEC-rated bearings would. What they do both seem to have are top-flight materials, extremely round balls, phenolic bearing cages, and very smooth balls and races, as well as the aforementioned skate-designed tolerances.

On another note, I've had more "bum" bearings with Swiss Bones (regular flavor or Super 6), than any other quality bearing. It seems like there is one noisy and/or "thumpy" (for lack of a better term) bearing in every package. When the bearings are $36 a package, they should be perfect. Both Oust and Rockets are better bearings and better values in a non-Biltin bearing, IMHO.

[Brady Mitchell]

Nick,
It seems as you probably have more experience with those other bearings than I previously knew. My point was that it seems unfair that Chris gets singled out on this witch hunt. I may be off, but it also seems as though it's being done to hype Rockets.

If you noticed, I never dumped on Rockets or Ousts. They probably are in fact good bearings.

Maybe you can answer me this....have you ever experienced a wheel not spin properly due to bad alignment of bearing/spacer/speed rings with Ousts or Rockets?

[Nick Krest]

Nick, you yourself are coming across as a Rocket shill. Ease back brudder. Speak with facts and not with insinuations from an anon poster.

One comment defending a longtime friend of mine, and I'm a shill? Get real. And who's the "anonymous" poster? Rich?

Why don't you take a look at my posts on NCDSA about bearings?

Brady, unlike you, I HAVE ridden Rockets, Ousts, Bones, and Biltins. In fact, I own multiple sets of all of them. I also have Shorty's, Ninjas, Loop/GMNs, NMBs, VXBs, Terminators, Pleasure Tools, BSBs, and probably ten other bearing brands.

Like Jack above, I rode a single set of Biltins across the US (plus one bearing that went bad). I'm not a shill for anyone or anything. Modern deep-raceway skate bearings are outstanding, and I find the fastest I've yet ridden to be Rockets, Bones Swiss 6, Oust, Biltins (not sure what ABEC rating they were), Bones Swiss, and Ninja, in that order. However, Biltins seem to resist torsional side loads better than any other bearing I've used, so they move up the ladder in terrain like backyard pools, GS, and the like. Add to that the fact that they don't have the annoying spacer clicking in injection-molded core wheels like FlyWheels and 3dm's, and they become essential to have.

I personally don't care what ABEC rating a bearing has. In my experience, ABEC ratings are irrelevant in a skateboard application.

Rockets, then Oust, have the best seal designs, IMHO. I prefer seals over shields, as I find them easier to remove for cleaning. I also prefer a proprietary polymer lube over any petroleum-based lube. Bearings tend to stay cleaner and lubed a lot longer with the polymer.

Unlike Jack's set, the Biltins I rode across the US have never been cleaned or even wiped down, even after 800 miles. And they still spin fast and are fairly silent.

[Brady Mitchell]

rehash..

I can see how one may draw a conclussion from my previous posts that I may be catching the back of Chris and ABEC 11.

Quite the contrary. I was only commenting on others posts (w.kilmer`s & nicks) that were knocking, or calling out abec 11. Where did this come from? An anonymous post on ncdsa that stated Biltins weren`t up to ABEC specs?

Nick, you yourself are coming across as a Rocket shill. Ease back brudder. Speak with facts and not with insinuations from an anon poster.

So here`s my take on MY experiance and knowledge of bearings..

I haven`t tried the Ousts or Rockets. So won`t say anything negative about them other than I hate those shill/hype reviews I read here or on ncdsa.

I can only relate on what I`ve ridden and experianced...

I find the Bones Swiss to be better made than the Biltins. I prefer the Biltins because I feel they are better because of the incorporated spacer and speed ring.

I`ve mounted tried and true Bones Swiss on wheels and they didn`t spin because of the spacer/speed ring set-up. The Biltins just pop in and run true. Of all the factors on what makes a bearing run faster, to me it`s the proper spacer/speedring combo. If a wheel doesn`t run true...it`s slow...period.

[Jack Smith]

Whatever Biltin bearings are rated is fine with me.

I rode the same set of Biltins all the way across America, never touched them. Just before the Worlds I popped them out and put them in my slalom wheels and rode them to equal 9th and equal 17th finishes in the Open Class.

After the Worlds I put them back in the wheels on my RollsRolls board and rode them another 100 miles or so.

When I decided to race JPL #6, I placed the same bearings back in my slalom wheels and ended up winning the dang race!

Now there back on the RollsRolls.

I have never even wiped off the outside of the bearings.

Biltins....I rate them GREAT!

[Jack Quarantillo]

I'm gonna jump in here with a few paraphrazed things that I've read here and there.

Ron has stated that many bearings rated ABEC7 test far lower. I do not recall if he called out any brand names other than ABEC11.

Ron has also stated that his bearings are specifically manufactured for VERT applications, and has recommended that they perform better (for VERT) without spacers.

He has also posted that he was considering manufacturing a "downhill/slalom" bearing with similar features to the Biltins (ie Spacers already there).

I don't think I've seen anyone post negative remarks about his bearings, hell, he will buy them back if you don't like them.

Many unbiased reviewers rated his "as fast as" Oust moc 9s.
The same unbiased reviewers also praised the ABEC11 Biltins, but IIRC, placed them slightly below Ron and Oust.

...Until you counted in the convenience factor of the no spacer, no speedring feature...

I don't know if I helped this discussion along any or not...

Q

ps of the 3 bearings I've mentioned above, I have only used the Biltins, which I like, but I'm lazy, so there...

[Nick Krest]

Weren`t there other companies pointed out by Ron`s cohort?

Rich is in no way, shape, or form Ron's "cohort". Rich likes to ask questions, and point out inconsistencies in stories.

[W. Kilner]

W. Kilmer,
First, just why did you single out Chris Chaput and ABEC 11? Weren`t there other companies pointed out by Ron`s cohort?

Chaput is an active and candid poster, and he moderates this forum, so it seemed like a good choice.

Could it be that the bearings were manufactured and sold to Chris as so and such? Do you expect Chris to have the equipment to test his bearing for ABEC ratings?

Very possible, but I'd like to hear what he has to say either way.

ABEC SCMAYBECK, Chris` bearings ROCK because of the incorporated speed ring and spacer. This by far make a wheels run truer and spin faster and farther than any other bearing out there.

I personally think the design is ingenious. I'm currently riding Bones Swiss, which are not rated at all.

Now maybe if Ron or Carl decided to make similar bearing designs, they`d have a leg to stand on when saying there`s are better.

I disagree. I don't think a bearing has to have the exact same design in order to compare them. But I'm not really interested in NMB vs Biltin, and you'll notice that I didn't ask that.

But since you did single out Chris, I wonder if there is an alterior motive? Why not go after the hundreds of other skatenoard bearing retailers? And it also seems like you had already jumped to your conclussion even before your first post. Did YOI test the ABEC 11`s yourself? Or are you going by an anonymous post from ncdsa?

I haven't jumped to any conclusions- you have. That's why I originally posted, to hear what Chaput has to say.

I haven't ridden Biltin or Rocket NMBs in case you are wondering.

[Tom Thompson]

Biltin bearings are some of the best out there, no doubt about it. Mine seem to be getting faster with each cleaning. So do my Bones Swiss Precision, so do my Bones Swiss 6, so do my Oust moc 9. Can't speak on Pleasure Tool because I haven't given them a fair test, but lots of riders swear by them. All these bearings have proven themselves fast and durable. What more do you need to know?

Abec schmaybec....right on.

[Brady Mitchell]

W. Kilmer,
First, just why did you single out Chris Chaput and ABEC 11? Weren`t there other companies pointed out by Ron`s cohort? Could it be that the bearings were manufactured and sold to Chris as so and such? Do you expect Chris to have the equipment to test his bearing for ABEC ratings?

ABEC SCMAYBECK, Chris` bearings ROCK because of the incorporated speed ring and spacer. This by far make a wheels run truer and spin faster and farther than any other bearing out there.

Now maybe if Ron or Carl decided to make similar bearing designs, they`d have a leg to stand on when saying there`s are better.

But since you did single out Chris, I wonder if there is an alterior motive? Why not go after the hundreds of other skatenoard bearing retailers? And it also seems like you had already jumped to your conclussion even before your first post. Did YOI test the ABEC 11`s yourself? Or are you going by an anonymous post from ncdsa?

[Steve Collins]

WK, it's possible that you misunderstood Vlad's post. He's taking a heroic and very necessary stand for grim seriousness and the elimination of all frivolity in skateboard parts company naming. Peoples lives are at stake here.

[W. Kilner]

Naming a company ABEC 11- a non-existent bearing rating- is deceiving, dishonest and impudent. In addition, it creates confusion such as in “I use ABEC 11’s ABEC 5’s”.

Naming a company “Pleasure Tool” is provocative, vulgar and bold. On the one hand, it clearly establishes a sexual reference. On the other hand, it makes fun of tools that overflow slalom forums.

Vlad, you're being daft, and missing my point entirely. I only bring this up because Biltin sells ABEC 3/5/7 bearings. If there's an actual difference, performace or spec wise, that's great- let's hear about it!
If not, let's hear about that too, that's what discussion boards are all about. I'd also like to hear Mr. Chaput's side of the story, and used this forum since he's the moderator.

I don't have anything against Biltin bearings or Abec 11 wheels whatsoever. I've never ridden NMB Rockets in case you're wondering.

[Vlad Popov]

Naming a company ABEC 11- a non-existent bearing rating- is deceiving, dishonest and impudent. In addition, it creates confusion such as in “I use ABEC 11’s ABEC 5’s”.

Naming a company “Pleasure Tool” is provocative, vulgar and bold. On the one hand, it clearly establishes a sexual reference. On the other hand, it makes fun of tools that overflow slalom forums.

[W. Kilner]

I wouldn’t worry too much about stated ABEC spec - A bearing’s high tolerance is lost as soon as you start skating with them anyway.

I don't care about general ABEC ratings, but if a bearing company is going to offer their bearings in 3 different grades with three different prices, then I think the higher rated bearings should perform and/or spec better. Otherwise, why bother with putting out different grades?

Those are statements of someone that sells a competing brand of bearing.

Not only does this person see Biltin as his competition, he is especially worried about the built-in spacer of the Biltin. So basically, this dude considers Biltin as a menace and discredits them in any way that he can get away with.

I'm not so sure this is fair. I've seen Ron's posts on various forums, and while his post come off a little rabid at times, he has praised competitors (Oust, Tony Hawk NTNs). He's also praised the xdesign of the Bilitin and was looking at putting out his own bearing with integrated spacer. (FWIW, he claims his bearings were designed with vert in mind and that he'd like to tackle designing a bearing for downhill & slalom.) I have no way of knowing if what he claims is true- he says he's tested a bunch of skate bearings. He certainly has the facilities to do so judging by his website, but you really need an independent laboratory to see if bearings really are the ABEC ratings they say they are. I don't actually care about that rating in of itself, but I think it's dishonest for a company to knowingly sell a bearing for more money for higher ABEC ratings if those certifications are false. [EDIT- This last sentence came off wrong- I don't think Chaput is dishonest or has tried to dupe anyone.]

[Wes Eastridge]

FWIW, recent measurement of Biltin showed that the Abec 7 model measure out to the same as the Abec 3 Biltins. Similarly, the Pleasure Tools Abec 7 has tolerances in the 3 range as well. He says this is common with the Chinese bearings and that Chris and Ed may not even know that their suppliers are burning them.

Those are statements of someone that sells a competing brand of bearing.

Not only does this person see Biltin as his competition, he is especially worried about the built-in spacer of the Biltin. So basically, this dude considers Biltin as a menace and discredits them in any way that he can get away with.

I wouldn’t worry too much about stated ABEC spec - A bearing’s high tolerance is lost as soon as you start skating with them anyway.

[Vlad Popov]

I've never noticed any difference between ABEC 3, 5 and 7. I mean my timer never registered any difference. This rating seems useless for slalom.

[W. Kilner]

FWIW, recent measurement of Biltin showed that the Abec 7 model measure out to the same as the Abec 3 Biltins. Similarly, the Pleasure Tools Abec 7 has tolerances in the 3 range as well. He says this is common with the Chinese bearings and that Chris and Ed may not even know that their suppliers are burning them. <i>viewtopic.php?t=822</i>

Just wondering if Chris Chaput would care to comment on this. Not trying to be confrontational, genuinely curious if this is true or not.

Also, anyone who's ridden Biltins- regardless of measurements, have you noticed any difference betweeen the 3/5/7's?

<i>EDIT: Attributed quote and provided like to original post</i>