[2005] Region East Atlantic: Europe

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[2005] Region East Atlantic: Europe

Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:43 pm

Ok, I closed the old topic to start a new one for the 2005 season.

1. Time to find out who has plans for organizing European competitions in 2005.
2. Who will be given the European Championships for 2005.
3. Who will recieve what World Ranking statuses for 2005.

I will try to keep this post updated with the current discussion.


World Ranking status proposal for 2005
__________________________________________________
Europe have 1 Major, 3 Mains and 4 Primes to set.
[Major] [Main] [Main] [Main] [Prime] [Prime] [Prime] [Prime]
__________________________________________________

Major status subjects (1)
[Major] Paris Slalom World Cup May 14- 16, Trocadero, Paris, France


Main status subjects (3)
[Main] Stockholm July 15-17 Stockholm, Sweden [European Championships]
[Main] Slalom Skateboard World Cup June 18 - 19 Grüningen, Switzerland
[Main] Antibes September 10-11 Antibes, France


Prime status subjects (4)
[Prime] Hannover World Cup 2005 June 3-5, Expo 2000, Hannover, Germany
[Prime] Riga World Cup July 9-10, Riga, Latvia
[Prime] Stockholm Winter Clash Dec 10, Stockholm, Sweden
[]

Basic Status
80-cone September 25 Zurich, Switzerland (small competition)

Other
England?
Others in Switzerland and Germany?
Last edited by Hans Koraeus on Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:18 am, edited 11 times in total.

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Independent view from the UK

Post by Sam Gordon » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:19 pm

Image
Whilst all English skaters know Brands Hatch to be the most naturally given slalom couse in existence, the difficulty is in its availability.

That the track organisers allow us to skate there at all should only be regarded as a priviledge; its rental cost without their generosity would be prohibitive.

In other words, whilst it is a joy to skate there, it's position on the calendar is unpredictible at best, happens within a week's notice at worst. Even then it is beholden to the weather. In the vaguest sense Brands can be likened to the Eddie Aikau contest www.quiksilver.com/eddie_aikau_04/ as regards when it might occur.

If then, a European race series is being devised, the most important races must be date specific so that travel, accommodation, time off work and training can be organised.

It is also important to know that races will not clash with each other so that one with a lower status will not lose out on competitors.

Brands Hatch, until a time slot can be confirmed, cannot ultimately gain a Main status.

Each of the races must also fulfill a criteria of standard given its status, but that can be discused elsewhere.

Paris is a good race to start off the season because of its high visibility and well organised structure. The slope is not long enough for an International Super G, however it does make for high profile sprint racing that is viewer friendly. It is a good marketing tool through which to introduce people to the sport early in the season.

Greuningen is an excellent mid-season race, as is Koln, but these are events more given over to the racer than viewer. Brands Hatch is similar.

For a race to have to have a Main status, it must have a high profile both in visibility and marketing to skater and public alike. If you hold a European Championship on a narrow cycle path high in a Siberian forest viewed only by wolves and with an entry of just two, then its import is diminished. Witnesses to an event help to aggrandise the occasion, whether they be viewer or participant. A good course and immaculate organisation are esentials also.

Antibes fulfills much of the above criteria and falls at the end of the season. Its location attracts racers and spectators. It has the hills, accommodation and accessibility. Why should it not then hold the European Championship?

That it is the second French race in the season should not be regarded as a shortcoming; instead it should be a wake-up call to the other European countries to raise their own standard.

More races on the calendar can only be a bonus as regards championship point-scoring, however there must be a few bigger events where racers who have amassed similar points feel compelled to enter in order to meet up and race off each other.

Over recent years ther have arisen a few 'standard' races that occur on similar dates year on year. Why should their organisers not be rewarded with a higher race status as a result of their constancy to the sport?

These events seem to offer the framework around which the rest of the season can develop.

Image

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:06 pm

Great post Sam,

And it is too bad there can't be a fixed date for Brands Hatch far in advance. That hill really gets the saliva running.

Organizers that have been running high status competitions before does already have an advantage over those that has not. They don't need any help. It's more like it's very difficult not to give them high status again. We need to help others with good initiatives also to not get stuck in the mud. And hopefully having a year off now and then for some organizers could be seen as a relief.

It's hard to see how Paris and Grüningen would not get Main status this year again. Being so early in the season it makes you look for other Main prospects later on in the season. There we have Stockholm and Riga. But with Stockholm and Riga so close only one of them will be likley to get Main status. If Antibes would decide to run something big again they would be really interesting also of course with their perfect place and calendar date for finishing off the season.

We don't have enough info from any of the organizers yet what they are planning for. Let's hope they will share some info to us all very soon. At least those aiming for Main status.

What I have heard from the Hannover competition it did sound promising too but three Main competitions so early in the season would not give us any good balance I think.

By the way Prime (and Basic) competitions will be given higher points for the 2005 season.

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Zurich

Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:00 am

Sunday 25. September 2005

Over 80 Cones race in Zurich City. It's only a small event...
Detail's will follow.

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WC Race

Post by Heiko Schöller » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:07 pm

I think that in Köln will be a huge race too but I don´t know it yet. I hope that Axel Fischer will organise it once again.

If yes it must be a Main race!!!
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:50 pm

Detlef wrote:The Hannover Skateboard Slalom Scene is proud to present their first Slalom World Cup. We plan a three Day Event in Hannover.

Friday: Giant Slalom, Saturday: Tight Slalom, Sunday: Special Slalom

The World Cup will be on the Expo 2000 Area between the german and the french pavillon.

pricemoney for the world cup will be 3.000.- euro
more information coming soon on the world cup website.
watch out for more information in this forum.

contact: info@soulstyle.de
I think the level of slalom competitions will be the highest ever this year in Europe. I'm scratching my head. Who should get what status? I don't like having three very high statuses so early on in the season but what can you say whith such a great setup with thousands of spectators and euros in prize money. At least our problems are positive...

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race status

Post by Detlef Rehbock » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:18 pm

Hello Hans,

As i wrote you, I don't care about Main race or Prime race status for this event.
But i think we need to find a wayto give each location the chance to be the major race in europe.
I think in 2005 the choice must be Paris, because it was the best race this year.

But I don't think the way that Heiko say is the right one.
He said that if Köln will make a race it must be a Main race. Why?

We need some facts about the race that will be a main race.

For example: a main race must have:

- 2.000.-euro pricemoney
- a competitive place
- a media partner
- 30 people orga team
- good race history
etc.

with these facts in your hand you can ask for a main status.
I think this must be the way we should talk about the race status.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:46 am

Detlef, I agree that the facts should decide. Not if you care or not. But if it's very even between two events it may play in. Actually we did exactly what you are asking for before the 2004 season. Pierre Samray started up with a couple of points to test the value of an event. Here are some factors to take into account.

1. Prize money
2. Organisation (experience, race responsable, No of persons in organization)
3. Location (sourroundings, big city, countryside, wood, park, inside)
4. Accommodation (cheap, helping out with reservations)
5. Communication/media (TV, papers, magazines, web sites)
6. Racers (last year level, coming from far away/long distance, other regions)
7. History (What edition?, First one?, General skate history)
8. Large audience (chance to get a big crowd?)
9. Race quality (Surface, hill/flat, width, length, startramps, food/beverage, shops, Discipline#, days#)
10. Added animation/happenings (Other events than slalom, demos, shows, parties)
11. Dates (It's good if Main/Major statuses are spread over the season)

Maybe there are others. I'll add if someone comes up with something else. Try these out on the candidates and see what rank you will come up with.

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:58 pm

If Paris are trying to get the World Championships (and if they succeced) how will that affect European Championships? If we are talking in the name of Majors/Mains/Primes then only one of them can be a major, I guess the worlds.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:19 pm

Hm...the Americans want long courses for the Worlds.
Suggestion: We could change between Stockholm and Paris:

=> Paris = European Championships

=> Stockholm = World Championships

Peter Klang wrote:Stockholm will run a three day event july 15-17 with
Gaint Slalom, Big offsets long course (40 sec).
Tight Slalom, like Morro Bay style, about 70 cones.
Straight Slalom, 6 feet= 1,80 meters, 60 cones.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:14 pm

The World Rank (WR) statuses are there to make it obvious for everybody where the highest WR points are given out.

The Major is a way to try and strongly persuade all racers that want to fight about top places in the WR to come and compete against each other.

The Main statuses are other important competitions that you should consider to enter if you want to fight about the WR top places.

The Prime status events are good to have if you miss out on any Major or Main competitions.

The statuses are only important for the World Ranking. There are many more reasons than the World Ranking to go to competitions. Other cups and rankings (American Cup, European Cup, ...), Good practice, nice events, close by and pure fun.

If Europe get's the World Championships it seems logical to give it Major status and European Championships a Main status. If not it seem logical that the European Championships get the Major status. But there are no fixed rules so even if Europe doesn't have the World Champs it doesn't necessary mean the European Champs get Major Status. It depends on the arguments people give here in this topic.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:33 am

To conform to the new Time Advance Rule it is becoming urgent to decide if Paris is going to get the East Atlantic Major status for the 2005 season and thereby the possibility to hold the World Championships.

If the Major status can't be decided here before 14-16 January I personally think the chance of getting that status is lost. If holding a race of such importance (and maybe even a World Championship) the least racers around the world should be able to expect is to know it at least 4 months in advance.

Look here for earlier discussions on the World Championship subject. But first we need to decide if we want to have a Major status that early in the season. There are reasons for and against. Maybe we will end up voting on it...

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Paris a major or not?

Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:56 am

There are two different issues:

a) Should Paris get the one and only euro major status in 2005?
b) Should Paris be the World Championships 2005?

The order of the questions should be b) then a) because if it is the World Championships then OF COURSE it is of major status.

It seems to me that there is certain but not enough support for a World Championships in Paris this year. Riderz made a request, but they haven't continued the debate, so maybe they've accepted to wait another year. This means that the only question remaining is a).
Comparing the events of last year and considering that Antibes and Cologne has had the major status it might be time for Paris. The only vote against it is that there are many high status events in France.

New Time Advance Rule. It's good, but it's a bit quick to announce the rule today and then enforce it 2 weeks later. Everybody knows about the date of the Paris event and most people are making plans because it is Paris and not because it's a major status or not. So, I'd suggest you relax the rule for a first implementation. At least Paris is confirmed, what about other events there after? Also it's not so easy to decide the status of one event, when you don't know about the status of other events.

PS. Note that I have no particular role at the PSWC 2005, except racing maybe?

/Jani

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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:15 am

If the World Championship is not in Paris, it will be in the USA one more time or is there other proposition in Europe or somewhere else?

I suppose that the other European competiton that could expect Major status is Stockholm that will probably be the considered as the "Euros"?

Riderz organisation team was quite busy, our web server have to be changed (Riderz.net will be available soon but is hardly not at the moment).
I suppose that organisers are still interested to host the Worlds but only if a majority supports that choice.

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Post by Alain ESNAULT » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:37 pm

Bonjour,

Je confirme que l’organisation du PSWC2005 fait acte de candidature pour être « Major » cette année.

Sportivement
Alain
PS : je ne parle pas anglais

++++++++++++

Hello, I confirm that the organization of the PSWC2005 makes application form to be "a Major" this year.
Sportivement
Alain
PS: I do not speak English

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major or what

Post by Detlef Rehbock » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:25 pm

i think paris was the best race last year.
it must be the major race for this year.
but i think it´s to early in the season to have the worlds in paris.
what´s about maurus? if paris is the worlds, he can be the worldchamp
for only a few months.

by the way. hannover is confirmed. we working hard on our first world cup
in hannover. check the website of our event at the end of february
www.skateboardworldcup.com

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:29 pm

Unless anyone speaks up against Paris getting the Major status for the 2005 season I see no problem with the new Time Advance Rule. We will just decide next week and then it's done.

Then if Paris will get the World Championship is the next question but that is a much bigger question. There are no rules for how and when this has to be decied. But something that we would need to have though sooner or later.

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Post by alavoine jean paul » Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:50 pm

Let's have the World Championsip in Paris.
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:26 pm

If no other claims the World Ranking Major Status for 2005 until Saturday January 16 I will officially announce Paris. It's important also for the racers to know as soon as possible to be able to plan ahead and getting cheap tickets.

Have a look at http://www.slalomranking.com for other events registered to be included in the World Rankings up until May. Others may be added of course but this is how it looks like right now.

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Post by Pierre Samray » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:09 am

ok for me about major status in Paris and ok about the world championship in Paris.

But now more difficult: Who are the 3 others mains in Europe?

The older races which become better and better year after year as Grueningen, Koln and Antibes?
Stockholm which is European championship?
Hannover or Riga which seems to become a nice event?

I think the geographic division you has made at the beginning is no more adapted.
In the same time some American race have "mains status" with only 1 nation and 20 racers.

Just an idea.

Put a ranking with the differents races at the end of the season and this ranking determine who are mains in the world. tell by exemple the 10 first are main (we can call it :world cup) with 2 majors, one in US and one in Europe)

How to rank the races?
The racers give the level of the races, ok? so by exemple : takes the world ranking of the 16 best racers present on the event. add it
and you can have an idea of the level of the race. then order it.
It's what they do with athetism meeting or Tennis ATP TOUR.

In this case for sure a new race can't be a main the first year, but seem to be normal comparing to the experience of the others.
then a race as european championship for sure must be main too at the moment everybody is ok to consider it as THE European championship. About that there is no doubt for me.

With this system only the best races are mains and have to defend their places every year to stay main. With promotion, accommodation, place, price money...

BECAUSE NOW WE HAVE TO DECIDE WHO IS MAIN IN EUROPE!!!
and I think it can be the same problem in USA.

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Post by Peter Klang » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:47 am

Read your personals.

/klangster

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:56 pm

Pierre.

That's a good idea!
I support this motion.

I was at the Mountain State Slalom Event (USA). There were about 26 people last year. This one day event should have a main status for this year. We had the infos about the race half an hour before the race.

You can't compare this race with Antibes, Grueningen or Cologne.
There is much more organisation and work in our races.

Have a look at the FIS. I think this week there are 2 or 3 World Cup races in Switzerland.
Their season is only a few months like ours, but they have every week a World Cup race.

A World Cup means:
Where you have people from 5 or more nations who match with each other.
That's a general sport rule and nobody can change it. (I think you will find this rule at the IOC regulation and in all other sports) That's why we have changed our name of the Grueningen competition to Slalom Skateboard World Cup.

Jadranko

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Post by Peter Klang » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:20 pm

In my book there are several matters that a ogenizer have to fullfill.

- Solid starting field of skaters
- Sufficient timing system
- Start ramps
- Prize money
- Solid crew, no mis-count on cones
- Courses set apart from regular sessions, long and technical

Therefor I think, and I want to point out that this is my personal view, the European part of the World Cup 2005 should be;

Paris Main/Major
Hannover Main/Prime
Gruningen Main/Prime
Stockholm Main/Prime
Antibes Main/Major

Thats right 3 events fighting for two main statuses. Lets arm wresle...
The only thing I can see a ploblem with is that France gets two out of four main/major events. They should be spread out geographically and over as long period of time as possible.

Moscow Prime
Riga Prime
London Prime (nothing announced but I hope they do put something on)

Then I dont know any others, if there is more cities planning to put on a contest, now is the time to announce it. Well I probable piss a lot of people off, but I believe without a open discussion we'll never get were we belong, IN THE SPOTLIGHT ON TV.


/Mustafa

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:32 pm

Hey Mustafa

Your book looks great, but...


... i don't know with the price money. At every race with price money, there were high entry fee. Should the price money be financed by the entry fee ?

... Antibes has last year problems with the timing system, starting gates and cones rule.

I don't know if we should take the main status from the swiss race. There is the biggest scene, and plenty of very good rider's.


I see now two possibilities...

change the ranking and work out a rulebook for World Cup's.

than we have as World Cup's (Main events)

Paris
Grüningen
Antibes
Cologne
Stockholm
Hannover


or

Paris Major (if World Championchips)
Stockholm Major/Main (if the Paris isn't the Worlds)/ (Europeanchampionchips)
Grüningen Main
Cologne Main
Antibes Prime (There is a Main/Major) in France
Hannover Prime

Jadranko

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:54 pm

No main in Cologne but in Hannover. I think Hannover will be a bigger contest than Cologne. For Cologne I propose a German Championship like 2 years ago.

For Grueningen I would love to have a better/bigger slope. In Switzerland are plenty of slopes you could use for a World Cup competition....


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Post by Peter Klang » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:03 pm

Jadranko,

You know me, I´m all for the Swiss, and you are right, you guy's have the biggest scene.
Gruningen should be a Main.

As far as Prize money, don't sell yourself short to sponsors. If they want the exposure, let them pay. Thats why I wrote what I did about SKF, they should Sponsor the whole tour. It is a huge company with a product for skateboards. It's a joke to here how they put up stuff in Paris and didn't pay.

SKF (Svenska Kullagerfabriken) Swedish company, Do the right thing. PAY UP.

/Gunn-Britt

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:53 pm

What we have in Switzerland is:

Grueningen as World Cup
Over 80 cones (small promotion race in Zurich, to show the sport to the people)
Rider's Meeting (Chur)


We will do a bigger investment in the next months. A new timing system with LED Tables for the times an Cones. The Grueningen Comp will be at the same location as last year, the same disciplines and perhaps adding a Nation Slalom Event. We have here a good infrastructure. It isn't easy to change the location and get the permissions. That all needs time. Optimal is when you can plan one year before. To receive a sponsorship from a big company, you have to ask them at least in October one year before the race.

We plan a Comp in Zurich in 2006, but now it isn't possible to move the location of Gruningen 2005.


Jadranko

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:32 pm

okay. But I think that there (in Grueningen) can you not really do Giant Slalom because

- it's not steep enough
- it's too narrow
- it's spot is too short

So I think that there could be a special slalom and something else but no GS.

That could be

- a Nation Slalom
- a Slalom (cone spacing / offsets like morro)
- a Straight Slalom
- a Cyber Slalom (I think that the road is flat at the top after the corner...)

any other ideas?



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Post by Pierre Samray » Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:32 am

Jadranko said "Antibes has last year problems with the timing system, starting gates and cones rule" ??????
No more than in Grueningen or Paris and about cone rules nothing comparing to Koln...Well! may be Peter Klang can speak better about this.

About price money. It's easy for me to put entry fees from 15 euros to 100 as in Paris.
In this case we'll have 6000 euros to propose to the winners.

This year we are following some sponsors. But is it really necessary if we become "prime"?

What I see is that. We try to become better and better every years, and our status become smaller and smaller if we only are "prime" this year.

That why I propose a systeme of ranking for the events to determinate it before the season.

The first problem I think : is that actualy the geographic zone put by Korky "who make a great job" is no more adapted now.

We have to concider the quality of the race and not only the geographic part.
Europe is a very strong scene with people intersting to organize big races
Usa have a very strong scene too, but may be, have too many strong status.
And zone has south america, africa, asia or Australia have no races actualy and let some strong status empty.

Here it's not a problem of country but a problem of race's quality.

If this years 5 or 6 races in Europe can be main in place of 4 it will be because : Europe is moving more and more every years. That a good sign.

I imagine if I tell to the 30 guys of my team, "you make a good job last year, but this years we will be no more world cup, because our event is in France. they can't understand and it will be the end of our race. Why going on? To become basic?

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:01 pm

I think the price money should be as low as possible.

my suggestion is to give all the big euros race the main status. If not, we make a step back.
At all big Euro races there are as many raiders as the Worlds in Morro Bay. And if we can say to the sponsors we are a part of the European World Cup's than i'm sure they will give more money. The distances in Euro aren't as bis as in the USA. For us it's possible to travel to every race. And the scene will grow.

It changes nothing in the world rankings. The only thing is that we have more main statuses what is justifiable. It's not fair to step one of the Euro races back to the Prime status.

What do you think Corky ??


jadranko

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:31 pm

Interesting thread...

In my opinion it would be better to have the opportunity to have more main competitions than the regulated 3 or 4 in each area. A set of rules that must be fulfilled for each status should be set up by ISSA and then the status of each race should be set by how the competition is run and who is attending the race.

If for example a competition is announced to be run as a main, but the set of (ISSA) rules are not followed at the race the status is removed/lowered. Same thing if you intend to run a prime but 'happen' to get sponsors for prizes at last moment and all the very best racers turn up, then the status could be upgraded. This would be a dynamic and still exact way to manage things status for races, AND most importantly would be a good way to have standardized level of what you can expect from a race. You know that if this is a main there will be good timing equipment, there will be trained cone heads, and you will find maps to the competition area, recommened accomodation etc...

What I'm trying to say is that you announce the race to be of a certain standard, and then you have to make it happen, or the status will be removed. As of today you just get the status and then it doesn't matter what you deliver at race date.

Regarding cone count in Antibes I'm not sure what's up, I didn't notice any problems and I think the cone heads did a great job. The times could have been more public (you had to look over the shoulder of the secretary to get to know your time), but I'm not aware of any flaws like in Cologne or Morro Bay.

Thinking of it, what a joke it is that none of the two largest and most important competitions in the world this year managed to keep track of the times for the riders - the number one most important thing, the way we compete, how we measure who is faster then who - It didn't work! Why would we then compete? We might as well just meet up and have a beer instead... But that's just my personal opinion of course.

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Post by Peter Klang » Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:52 pm

Word Macster, Word.

I think Marcus the KID just solved all our problems in one singel simple post.

Jadranko, Vlad, Pierre, Detlef, Paris, Gints and everybody who is putting on a race in 2005.
It´s a fair system, let´s give it go.

Come on ISSA set the standard.

/Boris

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:04 pm

First of all I think it is wrong to talk too much about nations. We in Europe are blinded by the fact that we have so many nations in our area. Soon we will be one "European Union" and that would be more logical when comparing with USA and their States. Then what will IOC do? Look at Great Britain. Sometimes they are one nation and sometimes they are Wales, England, Scotland and North Ireland. As always rules are not black and white. Rules are what we decide them to be. Rules can be changed and they are changed all the time. The importance is what we want. And the goal is some kind of balance in the sport.

What is the balance in our slalom world? For me there are some variables to consider, the skill in a region, travel distance, amount of travel, reasonable budget for a racer to put down on travel, reasonable attendance on competitions, planning, spreading the sport.

The World Ranking system is trying to deal with all of this knowing that these things can never be measured perfectly and by that knowing that there are no perfect rankings. Not in any sport. But we have to oversee that and just try to play by some sort of rules and when the results does not balance in the eyes of racers or those interested in the international slalom scene then you change the rules to handle the new situation. The World Ranking Rules are not written in stone. They will change. But are the World Rankings so wrong? Are they so skewed? Are any racers from a specific region obviously favoured or disfavoured? I remember when Ingmar Stenmark (Swedish Alpine Ski Genius) in his days started to win too much in the Ski World Cups that they each year changed the rules to try and balance up the situation.

The WR system makes the racers compete (of course) but it also makes the organizers compete. Some might not like that. And it also wants to give other organizers a chance now and then to attract the better skaters even if they are in regions with a less developed slalom scene. You should also be aware of that points for Prime and Basic competitions have been raised for the 2005 season. So having Prime instead of Main is of less importance than before.

The WR system also wants to encourage people to travel. And this also for those from places with a more intense slalom scene. Some in hot slalom regions for example might not like that because the balance is working a little bit against them having a large slalom scene. But the idea is to help those regions with a less of a slalom scene also. It’s hard enough for them as it is. If they on top of it all would be the ones we expect to do all the travelling too it is not really helping them on their home ground. And this is a fact even in the current system but at least it tries to balance it in the right direction. They normally have fewer competitions, fewer high statuses to use but maybe the field is a little bit lighter. For me it’s some kind of a balance. And the idea is if the field is lighter it may attract some racers that suddenly think it’s worth the trip. Then they may do themselves a favour, they help the region, and they help spreading slalom outside their own region and by that helps the whole international slalom scene. That’s not to forget in all of this.

I don’t like the idea of setting statuses afterwards. I know this is a tempting idea for the regions with a lot of high skill slalomers around. They can organize a lot of competitions and they don’t have to travel far and they will easily get many skilled racers and get a lot of high status competitions with very little time and money effort for the local riders. There is not much money in our sport and we who compete do have a limited budget. We don’t have the luxury to travel to more than 5-6 competitions per season. And if you already did that I would say it’s extremely good. The average travels for racers I don’t know. Maybe one could find out by saying a travel is when it takes you more than x hours getting there or by having a distance of x kilometres. Price could be a parameter in this as well. We can never take away the fact that some always have advantages over others that have nothing to do with slalom skills. But we can try to balance it up a little. By setting statuses in advance you can handle your season slalom budget better. And it is good to know in advance what you are dealing with. If you think this is difficult discussions now imagine doing it when you know what the result of your decisions will be. If you do like this Mollica will take the first place and if you do it like that Luca will win. At least setting the record straight before no one can say you favour any racer.

But remember the World Ranking is not all. There are many other reasons to go to competitions. Maybe a World Cup, American Cup, European Cup. It could be for the plain and simple reason of fun racing and meeting slalom friends. A nice competition site and you name it. These cups could have other rules of how to deal with things. Actually I think it could be a good idea that they are different, to again come back to the magic word, balance things up.

The goal of the World Ranking is to balance the whole world of slalom. That's why the statuses are limited in each region to control this balance.

P.S.
3rd Annual Mountain State Slalom Skate (17.Oct.2004) did not have Main status, it had a Prime status.

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Post by Pierre Samray » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:53 am

yes Corky it's nice to respect the balance between the different geographic zone.
But I think it's important to respect the organizers too. A lot of people who takes a lot of time to do something nice for the racers. That why I think we have to concider first the quality of an event. I don't know about US race. But what is sure is that for me : Paris, Grueningen, Koln and Antibes was on the same level. I'm sure Hanovre and Stockolm will be great too. We had the same problem last years with an Italian race and the brits and finaly (fortunatly we have only 4 big races at the end and no more, may be it can be different this year)
It's normal Europe has so much big races. It's full of slalom's nation. the strongest concentration of racer in the world. we have more race than in other part of the world.

You said "So having Prime instead of Main is of less importance than before"
Mmm! not realy sure. what are the opinion of Detlev, Jadranko, Peter, Jani...?

You said "but it also makes the organizers compete"
ok in this case we need the exact rules to compete.

What we need is concrate decision. In fact we (all organizers) 'd like to know early which status we'll have for this season.

PS : ANTIBES put a proposition now to be "World championship ISSA in 2006"

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:25 pm

Perhaps the thing I was trying to say doesn't belong to this thread (this being about world ranking) since I agree about the reasons how to give out status in order to make people travel and all that Corky said.

What I was really trying to address was that a race must hold a certain standard according to its status, so that racers know what to expect. High status = perfect organization, lower status = more of a fun event with low expectations.

I don't mind travelling to places where the organization is sketchy just to have fun skating and hang out, but I don't wanna travel and have high expectations and then wait all day and get tired of it all.

I think it's very important that we set some kind of rules that the organizers must follow to get their status or otherwise people (at least I) will get tired of this and stay at home. It's not THAT fun to sit all day on a curb waiting for your turn.

I also agree that the status should be set ahead, though I still think that the status could be changed afterwards (perhaps just one notch up or down) if the competion held a much higher or lower standard than expected.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:11 am

For the World Ranking it is now decided that Paris get the Major status for 2005. When it comes to the World Championships title it has nothing to do with the World Ranking in itself but I think personally the time is out for Paris. There have not been much interest from the organizers recently either so maybe they have realized this too.

Same goes for the European Championships. It has nothing to do with the World Ranking in itself but since it is suposed to be one of the more prestigous titles of the season a Major or Main status is normal. The Major status is taken so it leaves us a Main status. I don't think anyone will reject giving Stockholm Main Status this year. And it is becoming more and more clear that Stockholm is the European Championships for 2005 so let's just decide that.

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good decision

Post by Detlef Rehbock » Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:50 am

congratulations to paris for the major status
and good luck to stockholm.
hannover skaters will be at both events.
hope we will see you all at our first big slalom event in hannover.

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Post by Peter Klang » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:17 pm

Detlef,
I need to talk to you.

Please mail me your number.

peter.klang@seb.se

/Geuseppe

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Post by Detlef Rehbock » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:07 pm

sorry when i post my reply this morning i didn´t read all the other replys before

what should i say. i love skateboarding. i came back to the scene last year and had a lot of fun in paris, cologne, antibes and morro bay. after paris i decided to organize a race in hannover, because i was impressed about the slalom scene . so i travelled to the other citys to see what they do.

the reason for me to travel to morro bay was, to see what´s the standard in organisation
at the most important race of the year, the world championships. i had a lot of fun, because i knew i can`t win, i even can`t make the finals.

i couldn´t find the place of the giant slalom. so i missed the practise. a few month after the race i know my results. so markus you are right with your demand on the organization for showing the results.
hans avowed the facts for being a high status race in this thread on dec 18. just scroll to the top. i agree with this point of view. this must be the guideline for the status of a race.

and

hans you are right, when you say the status can´t be the only reason for skaters to travel to a race. yes, there are other reasons to travel. i take care about this other reasons.

i will organize a world cup slalom race in hannover, because world cup sounds good to the sponsors.
my impulse is to organize a race with all the standards that a world cup should have. i hope skaters will go to hannover for other reasons than the status of the race. at the end of february i will show you these reasons on the contest website www.skateboardworldcup.com
so all in all. it´s my first slalom race that i organize. there are a lot of competitions like antibes with a tradition. give me a prime status, not a main. i think this will be o.k.
price money in hannover will be 3.000.- euro.
hey pierre i don´t care about the status of your race. all the people are friendly, there are good vibes at your competition. antibes is very nice. this are my reasons for a decision if i travel to antibes or not.

but, let me tell this to all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!
if you will organize a world championship in skateboard slalom
you have to guarantee tv coverage
more than 1.000 spectators at one time
a great location
very good race informations for the competitors

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Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:11 pm

damn....
did you recognize how humble detlef in his approach towards the race he organizes?

i bow my head,detlef...

hopefully this race will be big and have lots of attendants.the germans will do their best to
make this event a big one.everybody will be there and-hopefully-also lots of you guys.
maybe the talk about the status of this race will change next year,when people realize that detlef is a PRO when it comes to organizing and running big events.
so,basically,you could assume,that he knows EXACTLY what he's doing.
everbody in germany is anxious to see this thing happen!
cologne might be a bust this year,since axel doesn't have any sponsors yet(hearsay)and a big health problem.
as a "shareholder" of this site i want to voice my oppinion on a certain subject called "status".
each and every organizer should be DEFINITELY encouraged by the ISSA to receive the fitting status for his race-anything else will DISCOURAGE possible events and organizers.

and i am looking forward to race at brands hatch this year.be it a short notice or whatever-i am all set and full of support for the british events!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:46 am

Ok Detlef, if you are ok with the Prime status this year the Main status will go to Grüningen since you are competing in the same period. I'm looking forward to your competition and I'm sure we will see higher World Ranking statuses on this Hannover competition in the near future.

Having a Prime status does not in any way mean that it is a less interesting event for the racers. In Europe we will have many Prime competitions of very good quality. It should not discourage anyone. Instead it should encourage organizers to know that everybody will have the oppurtunity to have a high status if they organize great events. The statuses are also a question of world balance, not only a way of telling organizers that one event is better than the other. One event should not have monopoly on a status. If they are challenged by other equally good events they will have to share statuses. For example, one year you get a Main status and the next you get a Prime status. Nothing strange. And this also is a reason why the World Ranking for Pros and Women are over multiple seasons. Then sharing the high statuses between events, years and regions will get balanced in the long run.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:09 pm

I have some questions:

Why has Paris Major Status and not the most important race, the European Championchips in Stockholm ?

We are looking in geographic and time between the races, but what is with the quality?
What should my motivation be, when i go a step back in the Status?
Why we shouldn't have Antibes as the World Championship 2005 ?

Why should a race, that have the same level of riders and organisation as my have a smaller status than my. What do you think how much time all organiser invest in organising ? Search for sponsors, evaluation of timing system, and thinking what they can do bether for the next year? Programming Websites, create Flyer's, create Posters and all that things...

Morro Bay will be the World Championchips. Starting 3 day's after the Antibes race. Is it possible for you (I mean the Europeans) to travel in 3 day's to Morro Bay. 16 hours in a airplane, and 5 hours form LA with the car. And what you can expact is 100 Dollar for the entry fee. How was the second in the tight Slalom at the World's 2004 David Pirnack. He came with two DQ run's in the Am Final. What was with information at the World's 2004. Did someone know that we will go to a Hockey stadium with diffrent surfface to have a Cyber Slalom? Travel from one Spot to another between 30minutes and 1 hour? Waiting for training, training without cones.

We had many problems in 2003 but we had learn. The only Problem that we had in 2004 was the timingsystem at Sunday evening. (If there was more problems please tell me)

If a organizer say they starts at 8 or 9 o'clook, than i expect that they are ready 15minutes before this time.

I don't want to say that the Europeans are better than Americans or somthing like that.

What we need is to go away from the geographic and time rule to the quality of the Competition. If there are more people in Euro who organize and race Big event's than in the USA, should we adjust the numbers of Main Events in Europa to the USA. I think there shouldn't be a limit in Main Event's. If a race is good from the Quality of organisation and Raider's, they should be a Main event. Perhaps we will have 10 World Cup's in Europe. You will find a plenty of new Swiss faces in 2005 at the races.

/Jadranko

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Morro

Post by Jack Smith » Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:37 pm

Jadranko,

Did you not receive my Private message? Please see my post in the Slalom Week forum.

I will answer your concerns.

You wrote:
"Morro Bay will be the World Championships. Starting 3 day's after the Antibes race. Is it possible for you (I mean the Europeans) to travel in 3 day's to Morro Bay. 16 hours in a airplane, and 5 hours from LA with the car."

My reply:
I am looking into resheduling the event to October 3rd - 9th. Of course I want all the best racers to attend.

You wrote:
And what you can expect is 100 Dollar for the entry fee?

My reply:
I don't think I have announced an entry fee yet. I am starting much earlier this year on the sponsorship request and hope to have a reduced entry fee. If you are asking what you received for last years $100 entry fee...four races.

You wrote:
How was the second in the tight Slalom at the World's 2004 David Pirnack. He came with two DQ run's in the Am Final.

My reply: I addressed this situation months ago. It was a mistake in the race software that allowed Pirnack to be seeded into the head to head finals. I have apologized for this and do so again.

You wrote:
What was with information at the World's 2004. Did someone know that we will go to a Hockey stadium with different surface to have a Cyber Slalom?

My reply: Yes, this was listed on the World's website and I posted it here and on NCDSA.

You wrote:
What was with information at the World's 2004. Travel from one Spot to another between 30 minutes and 1 hour?

My reply: This information was also listed on the web site and posted. Travel time from the Super G to the Cyber Slalom was as you say between 30 minutes and 1 hour. What other travel time was there?

You wrote:
Waiting for training, training without cones.

My reply:
This information was also listed on the web site and posted. When did you have to wait for training? While the road dried on Sunday morning. Sorry, I cannot control the weather. Or perhaps you had to wait in line? Sorry. Or was it while you waited for the course to be reset? Some racers cannot be bothered to help reset cones in "training". Someday I will organize a race where there is no "training".

I will know about the date change by Monday, January 24th.

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2005 Worlds

Post by Claude Regnier » Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:36 pm

Flights are already booked and paid for. This may be the only race I can attend this year other then the ones I organize here in Ottawa.

I hope the dates stay the same. I'm sorry for those who will not make it to both from either side of the pond. I am also very sorry not to be able to make it to Antibes or any other European races this season. I finally made it to Paris last year and I hope the next time is not as long a wait as my 1st.

Good Luck with the dilemna. We had the same issue taking full advantage of the seat sale. At this point who is going to pay for the cost incured in changing those flights.

3 Days is plenty of time. You can sleep on the plane but PLEASE! no skateboarding on it :)
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by alavoine jean paul » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:27 pm

pierre samray wrote: Just an idea.

Put a ranking with the differents races at the end of the season and this ranking determine who are mains in the world. tell by exemple the 10 first are main (we can call it :world cup) with 2 majors, one in US and one in Europe)

How to rank the races?
The racers give the level of the races, ok? so by exemple : takes the world ranking of the 16 best racers present on the event. add it
and you can have an idea of the level of the race. then order it.
It's what they do with athetism meeting or Tennis ATP TOUR.

.
I think it's much better if we know what category a contest is gonna be in advance, pierre, but I understand the point you're trying to make here. Wouldn't it be easier if the importance of a contest were determined by its local, national, or international nature... I'm only trying to help here and will be ready to make further and more precise suggestions.

Popol lost in calculation.
jean paul aka POPOL:
"I was born yesterday...
but I stayed up all night!"

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:16 am

As far as I know Gints Gailitis is planning a World Cup event in Riga in connection with the European Championships in Stockholm. The last thing I heard was that the plan is to have it one week before, so it's 9-10 of July. Now that Ryan Air flies to Riga (at least from Stockholm), we could hope for a good number of people taking a week off to race both in Riga and in Stockholm mid July.

Gints will announce it once it has been confirmed.

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Riga

Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:54 pm

Yes, you also have low cost Hotel's in Riga. We were in a 3 Star Hotel with breakfast for only 35 EUR (17,5 Eur per Night and Person)

I will go again, RIGA is a beautiful City and there is a nice beach !!!


/Jadranko

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:26 pm

I still can't understand why there are just 4 Main Status Races in Europe when we have 5 or more competitions that could receive Main Status.

If I look at the list below I wonder why there are Main Statuses given for Asia (no slalom scene known) and Australia (maybe a small slalom scene).

Image

So if there are no events annouced (absolutely NOTHING) we could take the statuses for Europe....

In my opinion each of the following locations deserves a Main Status:

Antibes
Paris
Stockholm
Gruningen
Hannover



rmn
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:52 pm

Jadranko wrote:Why has Paris Major Status and not the most important race, the European Championchips in Stockholm ?
World Ranking status and European Championships or any other regional Championships does not have a link. The only link for the moment is that the World Championship should have a "Major" Status. It's up to the racers (and organizers) to decide the statuses. There have been more talk of giving Paris Major status maybe because of its earlier intention of harboring the World Championships. And also that many think that it is time that Paris got this status being one of the most popular events during the last years.
Jadranko wrote:We are looking in geographic and time between the races, but what is with the quality?
Everything counts but in the end you have to do a selection. Paris has not a perfect date for a Major status so early in the season but other things have apparently balanced this up.
Jadranko wrote:What should my motivation be, when i go a step back in the Status?
The World Ranking Status is not the ultimate regional tool for event comparison since it also take into account a World Balance angle that are not seen regionaly. If you don't get a Major status as organizer will you loose motivation? If you had it and you loose it next year will you loose motivation? Same thing with Main and Prime is that many Prime competitions may be as good as Main competitions in well developed slalom regions. Only difference is that you wil get more or less World Ranking points for them. Your motivation should not be built upon the World Status alone. And World Ranking status is not the only reason to go to a competition.

A regional Cup or Serie may very well have other way of setting statuses than the World Ranking, for example a European or American Cup.
Jadranko wrote:Why we shouldn't have Antibes as the World Championship 2005 ?
I don't know if Pierre has asked for it. Paris tried but did not get enough support for it. Maybe we should work for a World Championship in Antibes 2006. It's not only a question for the organizer himself to take that battle. We all have to help out more, racers, organizers and sponsors.


About Morro Bay as World Championchip.
There have not been enough energy within the International slalom community to change this yet. I hope we can come to an agreement to let the World Championship be shared between the American and the European continents. Having it every second year and maybe even publish the next World Championships at the prize cermony. This could be something to create some hype around for the media.

About problems at competitions.
There will always be problems at competitions. We can only try to avoid them as good as we can and have procedures to take care of them when they arrive. Some guidelines of what the slalom community expects from a serious competition may be one of these things. Creating an International body for our sport could be another. Complaining is easy and is a part in the process but it's not all. We have to work for solutions as well for everybody.

World Ranking idea.
The World Ranking is something that should balance developed slalom regions and less developed slalom regions. It should encourage people to travel outside their own slalom region. Especially those in high developed regions. Less developed regions have no choice but to travel. The attendance factor should be weighed into this compromise. Switzerland (and California) could very well put up a lot of high quality competitions with a lot of top quality riders. Easy for the Swiss to attend but maybe not that easy for others. It's also question of what slalom budget and time we want to force onto racers in the world.

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main or prime

Post by Detlef Rehbock » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:08 pm

thank you ramon for your opinion, that hannover should get a main status.
why should we get a main status in the first year? because we announce a world cup
in hannover? we, the organizers decide to have a prime status instead of a main status
for hannover. maybe in our second year and as a kind of our first result this year we can ask for a main status for hannover.
hans is right, there are other reasons to travel to a slalom race.

Locked