[2006] Region East Atlantic: Europe

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[2006] Region East Atlantic: Europe

Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:42 am

I will try to keep this post updated with the current discussion.
1. Time to find out who has plans for organizing European competitions in 2006.
2. Who will recieve what World Ranking statuses for 2006.


World Ranking status proposal for 2006
__________________________________________________
Europe have 1 Major, 3 Mains and 4 Primes to set.
[Major] [Main] [Main] [Main] [Prime] [Prime] [Prime] [Prime]
__________________________________________________

Major status subjects (1)
[Major] Brixlegg, AUT | World Championships of Slalom Skateboarding 2006 | July 21- 23

Main status subjects (3)
[Main] Paris, FRA | Paris Slalom World Cup | May 25-28
[Main] Riga, LAT | European Championships of Slalom Skateboarding 2006 | July 1-2
[Main] Antibes, FRA | World Cup - Antibes | Sep 31- Oct 1

Prime status subjects (4)
[Prime] Grüningen/Hinwil, SUI | Slalom Skateboard World Cup Grüningen/Hinwil | June 9 - 11
[Prime] Hannover, GER | Hannover World Cup | June 2-4
[Prime]
[Prime]
Stockholm, SWE | | August?
Zürich, SUI | Swiss Slalom Series #4 Final | September 24

Basic Status
Basic and Plain statuses don't need any discussion since they are decided only on date when they are officially announced.
More than 1 month = Basic status. Less than 1 month = Plain status.

Other
Last edited by Hans Koraeus on Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:30 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:34 pm

The discussions for European World Ranking statuses for 2006 have already come a long way. They came up in another topic and discussion about selecting World Championships. There have been some hard discussions but now the Major is decided since Antibes did throw in the towel. And the European Championships in Riga also seems clear.

I'm moving over the discussion here where it should be. And there are still some time before we have crossed the finish line with this.

Here are two proposals following the latest discussions.

- 2006 Proposal 1
Paris May 25-28
Grüningen 9-11 June
Riga (EC) 1-2 July
Brixlegg (WC) 22-23 July

- 2006 Proposal 2
Paris May 25-28
Riga 1-2 July
Brixlegg 22-23 July
Antibes September

The first proposal is a little bit too compact concerning dates for my taste. The season ends to early. But possible.

The second proposal is better concering dates but have the problem of France getting two Main statuses. I think the French would select Paris before Antibes for having one Main status. And Paris is difficult to battle with for Hannover and Grüningen. That Antibes gets the last Main is mainly because it has no other competitor at the end of the season. If Grüningen was late in the season it would have got the Main status but where the event date is now for the season 2006 it is difficult.



Selection ideas
- Spread them out over the season
- Spread them out geographically
- Spread them out over odd and even years
- Avoid same country getting more than one of the highest statuses

Spread them out over the season
It's good if we have the races spread out over the season. This gives us maybe four season zones over the year. May/June, June/July, July/Aug, Aug/Sept. Races in the same date zone compete against each other.

- Zone May/June
Paris, May 25-28
Hannover, June 3-5
Gruningen, June 9-11

- Zone June/July
Riga/Jurmala, July 1-2

- Zone July/Aug
Brixlegg, July 22-23

- Zone Aug/Sept
Antibes, September

Spread them out geographically
Let's try to give as many as possible the chance to have at least one Main close by.

West: Paris, Antibes

South: Antibes

Middle: Grüningen, Brixlegg, Hannover

North: Riga, Stockholm

Spread them out over odd and even years
If one city gets the Main one year then other could get priority the coming year. Since the World Ranking (pros, wom) are over multiple years that will not affect the world ranking at all.

Avoid same country getting more than one of the highest statuses
This is only a problem for Antibes and Paris. Even though Brixlegg is in Austria it feels a lot like German or Swiss territory since the slalom scene in Austria haven't made itself shown very much.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:34 am

So this is how I see the situation for the moment.

Major status subjects (1)
[Major] Brixlegg, AUT | World Championships of Slalom Skateboarding 2006 | July 21- 23

Main status subjects (3)
[Main] Paris, FRA | Paris Slalom World Cup | May 25-28
[Main] Riga, LAT | European Championships of Slalom Skateboarding 2006 | July 1-2
[Main] Antibes, FRA | World Cup - Antibes | Sep 31- Oct 1

Prime status subjects (4)
[Prime] Grüningen/Hinwil, SUI | Slalom Skateboard World Cup Grüningen/Hinwil | June 9 - 11
[Prime] Hannover, GER | Hannover World Cup | June 2-4
[Prime]
[Prime]
Stockholm, SWE | | July?

Any comments? Or should we wrap it up like this. Two Prime slots open.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:28 am

Why we get a Prime Status ?

How was the decision taken ?

Why have the French two Main's ?

We were the most representative nation at the races in 2005 and we want to have a Main Status race in our country.

/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:30 am

ehmm corky i would definitely like to have a prime for our season-opener in germany.
i'm talking about the great western race.
this is no fun or outlaw-race, we will organize it together with axel fischer who did the euros 2004.
thanks from don

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:35 am

the french deserve those two spots. besides a high-level race-event they offer everything a skateboard tourist wants. following up their heels is hannover who might deserve a better slot than it has right now.
you should try to understand why that decision has been taken and accept it without complaint.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:10 am

Don, i didn't ask you what you think or what conceivabilities you have.

I'm asking for the process - how it was decided ?

you should try to understand why that decision has been taken and accept it without complaint.
Every decision has a justification. And I would like to know what the justification is.


/J-Rad

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:04 pm

It's because they don't want the season to be over in July already.
If we give Antibes a Main Status the season (of Main Events) ends in September instead in July already.

I wouldn't care so much about statuses....an event is as good as it feels and that really doesn't depend on the status it's got.

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Post by Heiko Schöller » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:21 pm

Jadranko it's always the same here. We are all talking and discuss everything till death and in the end the decision is made by the same guys...

I think Grüningen must get a main status because of it's history...but Paris and Antibes deserve a main too. Not my decision so I don't give a f#@k about the statues....
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:42 pm

If you wanna discuss. So it'll be!

Events that, in my opinion, deserve a Main status are:
  • Paris
  • Hannover
  • Grueningen
  • Riga
  • Antibes
  • Brixlegg
bla

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:47 pm

wanna have another deathmatch here?

boredom(ok ramon which band did that song-let's see if you did your homework,reply-time is 2 mins from now...)

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:55 pm

no homework done

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:56 pm

buzzcocks
shame on you

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Post by Dominik Kowalski » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:41 pm

Hey, guys calm down...
that is waisted webspace.....since you gotta pay for the side ;)

Anyway, ahh...hmm..no...argh..fxck!
I had a good idea to solve all the problems
in all discused problems in this forum but I just forgot it!

Dawm....think now I just waisted that one too, hugh?

Shame on all of you buzzc%§s

okay, back to the topic :)
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keep on rollin'...

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:36 am

Corky wrote:So this is how I see the situation for the moment.
Not everything is decided in stone but Riga and Brixlegg are Mains because of European and World championship titles. (Brixlegg taking the Major status). I tried earlier to propose not having Paris as Main to see what happened. I got the feeling that most feel that Paris has to have Main status. Once this was clear Hannover and Grüningen is losing out on Main status because they are too close to either Paris or Riga. People want to see the Mains spread out over the season and after Brixlegg Antibes is the only option we know so far.

So Hannover and Grüningen, both capable of holding Main status, in this years scenario falls down on Prime statuses.

As I said this is the conclusion of the discussions we have had so far. It's time to take the discussions another step forward if any new angles on the subject can be made.

There are also still 2 more Prime statuses that have not been discussed much. Don seems to have no problem taking care of them but I know Stockholm is interested in one of those Primes as well. And I still hope England could surprise us with something. Prime need to be decided 2 months ahead so for an early season opener the earliest date possible is know March 10. Time is running away quickly...

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Post by Steve Hinzen » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:01 am

First congrats to You decision-makers from my side.

I think You came up with a very good concept for this year's european races.
It serves the best to the needs of the majority of racers.

History or not, from my point of view a main status for Paris was out of question.
Also Antibes easily wins a competition against Grüningen for a main status for many reasons, not only because it's at the season's end.

If Hannover keeps establishing itself as a big one it definitely deserves a higher Status next year. It can easily overrun Grüningen in terms of attraction and professionalism.

Jadranko, Corky did a good job in some of his posts where he explained very well on which arguments this final decision should be done. In this debate You were given the chance to get a main status by pushing Your event to the end of the season.

If no one else enters into competition for primes the great Western Series should get prime status. We need to know this until the 2nd of february. This is exactly 2 month ahead of the first of the two races.

-

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:34 pm

What i said is that there aren't rules for the decision.
If Hannover keeps establishing itself as a big one it definitely deserves a higher Status next year. It can easily overrun Grüningen in terms of attraction and professionalism.
I don't know what you understand under the word professionalism ?

Is it professional when Luca has to go three times down the course, to have a time ?

Is it professional when Dan Gesmer goes away with his LapTop for a phone call and Chris Hart takes his Lap Top to continue the race ?

Is it professional when you don't have a kind of ambulance at the race for the security of the raider's ?


The quality of the race and the quality of the starterfield should be the most important point.
Than you can talk about spread out over the season and all the other things...

A race like Paris/Riga/Hannover is important when we have an organisation behind the races. When we as ISSA are looking for sponsors, media coveriges and so on...

but we aren't now in this situation.

If the slalom event is a part of another big event or the location is in a touristic side, than it's no problem to have the spectators. But the other question is, how is the quality of spectators ? If you have the races for it self not a part of another event, than you get the people who are interested in this sport.

There is more than one way to Rome. We take more than one. We have event's like Grueningen/Uster/Wetzikon which are for it self. And we have one in Zurich which is a part of the car free day where we have thousends of spectators.

We make Folder's/Flyer's/ad in the buses/Posters to promote our races. For Zurich we need only to do a Folder or nothing and we have the spectators.

But the small races are those who bring new blood in to the sport and with this new blood the sport can grow.

In our situation now, i don't think that the criteria's for the decision of the racestatuses are the right one.

If there is one thing which wasn't proffesional in Grueningen, than please tell us. You can be sure that every small point will be reflected. That is what we understand under qualiti and professionalism.

For me personal it doesn't depands which status our race have. I won't race at my race anyway. But there are a lot of folks here who want to have the chance to make some point's.

For me it's important to have some guidlines how it should be done and what the criteria are. That's the only way to measure if the event's deservs the status or not.

Without criterias, it's only your feeling who say which race deserves which status. And if you look which people wrote somthing, than you know which people has decided. But don't forget there are many other people outside of this Forum who feels in another way.

That's way we need precise criterias.

/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:34 pm

yes-there are rules/guidelines!

most of the criteria has been given by corky in his previous postings already-maybe you should take your time and reread the definitions for statuses,so there's no need for this question.
on a side note i see that your main focus of attack seems to be another race from another organizer again?
may i ask you( i take the burden to be the bad man on my shoulders again) if it is professional to hold a "bigger" contest in a remote village somewhere in switzerland on a side lane of a main street?
or is it professional to fetch 20 euros from the entrants for a tank-top of the cheapest quality telling them they ordered it?

you know damn well what i'm talking about jadranko,don't try to ridicule me there.


i had my first full season in europe this last year and i openly admit that going to grüningen was the biggest bummer for me.
paris was right before grüningen and what a difference,i was absolutely speechless and disappointed.that was one of the worst locations i have seen so far.your crowd of spectators has been derived of the families of the local fire-house and some bored youngsters.

besides that i don't see anything unprofessional in chris taking over dans place during a race.you know damn well how experienced chris is,you are still far away from that.

see,i raced when you were not even in the planning and i quit racing among with lots of other racers because the races were #a absolutely boring #b mostly held at remote locations.

it's not only the sportive aspect that counts,going to any race is also a form of tourism.
me,being the guy who has to cover the expenses any race causes,i want to get the best out of it.grüningen will not be on my map ever again.

if you want a corporate body who has the ultimate power to cast any decision being made towards this sport,the you are talking about MONEY-these people need to be paid for what they do-i can't see that right now.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:12 pm

Steve Hinzen wrote:History or not, from my point of view a main status for Paris was out of question.
Steve, is there a typo here? Does Paris deserve it or not?

/Jani

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:36 pm

maybe hard to understand the way its written,but steve wanted to say that paris rules in his book.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:07 pm

on a side note i see that your main focus of attack seems to be another race from another organizer again?
Don, there are no attacks to anybody or any event's.
It's only a view from another side. My main focus is to have a clearly System to messure the criterias and decide the statuses.
Also Antibes easily wins a competition against Grüningen for a main status for many reasons, not only because it's at the season's end.

If Hannover keeps establishing itself as a big one it definitely deserves a higher Status next year. It can easily overrun Grüningen in terms of attraction and professionalism.
Steve write things without facts. I gave your some facts. Those were important things for an Event.
may i ask you( i take the burden to be the bad man on my shoulders again) if it is professional to hold a "bigger" contest in a remote village somewhere in switzerland on a side lane of a main street?
or is it professional to fetch 20 euros from the entrants for a tank-top of the cheapest quality telling them they ordered it?
On the photos of this side lane you can see the development of the sport and the racers over the last 6 years. From 24 rider's to 96 rider's. Over 180 skater's from 13 country's raced this side lane.
The tank-top t-shirt was only for order. It was writing in 3 diffrent languages and you had to take your size. The standard of the registration was "no shirt" to order the shirt you had to take your size. 77 shirt's were ordered from the rider's with name and number. The price is swiss standard. And it was the choice of the raiders if they want one or not.
besides that i don't see anything unprofessional in chris taking over dans place during a race.you know damn well how experienced chris is,you are still far away from that.

I know that Chris is well experienced, he helped me every year organising the race.
But chris was there as a rider not as the man who run's the race. It's very intresting that you know what my skills and what i do and what i did.
see,i raced when you were not even in the planning and i quit racing among with lots of other racers because the races were #a absolutely boring #b mostly held at remote locations.
I heard other causes from other skaters.

it's not only the sportive aspect that counts,going to any race is also a form of tourism.
me,being the guy who has to cover the expenses any race causes,i want to get the best out of it.grüningen will not be on my map ever again.
Don, never forget this is your point of you. I respect it, it's your decision.

Ask other people what they think. Ask Luca, Olson, Carrasco, Klangster, Macster, the gordan family, Chris, Lynn, Noemi, Pierre, the Russian team, and the swiss.
if you want a corporate body who has the ultimate power to cast any decision being made towards this sport,the you are talking about MONEY-these people need to be paid for what they do-i can't see that right now.
it's not every time a question of money. I don't think that the people race because of the money. Slalom is a passion for some of us. We like to show other people the sport. The people like to watch slalom. It's somthing what you didn't see every day. I think it's possible to have a body for the Szene with very less money. What you need are people who want volunteer. And i know a lot of those people...

/J-Rad

besides: 10 of the youngsters from Grüeningen started Slalomskating after the contest. They skated 3 times a week during the summer and they will start again in the spring 2006

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:37 pm

So what's your plan now?

What makes it so important to get a main status for Grüningen once again since it has had one for the last...5 years?
In my opinion you should give other events that, so far, haven't had a higher status a chance to advance somehow. You cannot book a main status over 10 years in a row.
I personally don't care whether Grueningen gets a Main Status or not altough I'm in the same opinion with you J-Rad, according to the fact that Switzerland's got a really big, perhaps even the biggest, slalom scene. But I also think that hardly any Swiss guy would care whether Grueningen's got a Main or only a Prime Status.
And since nothing in this sport is really official, I guess nobody will care about how you will publish the whole thing here in Switzerland....


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Post by Guest » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:15 am

A new world ranking system is in the making.
All races with with good startingfields will recive
Main status. Corkys system will still exist but this
is just to see if it will change the ranking, more
info to come.

B

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yes!

Post by Steve Hinzen » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:20 am

Steve, is there a typo here? Does Paris deserve it or not?
Jani, the answer is: YES, it does !

-

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:13 pm

The Bulla wrote:A new world ranking system is in the making.
B
Let me know your full name and I will update your profile. No pseudos please.

pm or email to jani@slalomskateboarder DOT com

/Jani

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:23 pm

What it makes important for main status is the fact, that there are many rider's who can't make every trip to a race. And they want as well to have a chance to make some point's for the World Ranking. Give them the chance to tell their kids or grandchild what they have done and which place they had in the World Ranking.

Grueningen makes it possible to attend a race with a small budget.
low entry fee, free accomodation, free transport from and to the airport
We didn't take the entry fees from the Latvians and we didn't take the entry fee from the Russians. Did you see more Latvians or Russians on another event than in Grueningen ?
Ask yourself if it's possible for you to spend a whole month's earn to go to a competition ?

If we are talking about a balance for the World Ranking and geographical criterias, than it's Grueningen which deservs the main status more than Antibes or Paris.
compare the number of rider's, compare the geographical location.

This is the point what i'm talking about!
The ISSA had to decide which criteria there are and how important which criteria is.
You can have some special rules like if you had the main status one year the other year another location has the advantage to have the main status.

That is a way. But not with undifferentiated statements. Look at the Forum which people wrote something about the Statuses. Look at the way of Donald, contact as many people as you can and they should say: yes i'm behind your project. The Forum gives you an input what this group of people think. But don't forget the other's who didn't make a statement or which aren't in this Forum. Perhaps it's an organisation needed with representatives who don't see only the own interest, but the interest of the Sport and the People who do this sport.

I don't want the Status from Antibes, Paris, Riga or Brixlegg.

But think about the way how it was decided and think about the other's who aren't in this Forum. And think differentiated when you compare the Event's with each other. Try to messure the criterias in a fair way. And try to weight the criterias. And in the end, don't forget it's your opinion and other's see it in another way.

/J-Rad

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:32 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:What it makes important for main status is the fact, that there are many rider's who can't make every trip to a race. And they want as well to have a chance to make some point's for the World Ranking. Give them the chance to tell their kids or grandchild what they have done and which place they had in the World Ranking.
Does it depend on where they earned their points?

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote: We didn't take the entry fees from the Latvians and we didn't take the entry fee from the Russians.
But you should still be able to pay for ordered things even if you do some "goodwill actions" like that.


Whatever...I'm curious about this new ranking mentioned by our "anonymous" user here.
It's maybe going to solve all the current problems we have got...

rmn
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Post by Chris Hart » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:09 pm

Has anybody realised, Airflow have a swiss rider ranking since more than 6 years.
Here is the link: http://airflow-skateboards.com/asphalt/ ... listea.php
chris

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Post by alavoine jean paul » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:52 am

I promise I have nothing to do with Bulla!

I think Jadranko has a point here :

If we want to take democratic decisions we need to have a body of some kind, in real life I mean and not only on the net. After all maybe Don was right when he got mad about the skaters' conference that should have been held in Stockholm and wasn't.

But I also have to admit that the season's planning is getting better organized, and this we owe the web and its wizzards.

If I can be of any help, I've got some spare-time at the moment.

Your slalom mate, Popol, getting better every day...

P.S.: Even if Gruningen has a lower status this year, we all know it's a GREAT event.
jean paul aka POPOL:
"I was born yesterday...
but I stayed up all night!"

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:28 am

Corky wrote:So Hannover and Grüningen, both capable of holding Main status, in this years scenario falls down on Prime statuses.
Jadranko and others, Grüningen and Hannover are both cabable of holding a Main status. But to keep a world balance between Europe And America the World ranking will have to filter out a couple of those events. The Americans have the same problems as we. In the end we have to share them between us. Don't forget this is a World Ranking issue. Not a European issue. This is forgotten over and over again. And will be again two posts down. But still I will try to remind you of this now and then.

Again what some of you seems to be missing is a European Cup but that is a whole other ball game. This is to handle the few World Ranking statuses that are given to the European region from the total amount of statuses given away to regions around the world.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:25 am

I think the way how it's discussed now it's okay.

The Americans discuss their Status for themself and the Europeans the same.

What isn't okay, is that we have no guidlines how it should be done.

Perhaps Corky for you is more important to spread the Statuses over the season. For me the most important criteria is to allow as many as possible Europeans to attend a high status race. And if we have two races in france than we have missed something in the decision.

Antibes had the Main Status last year. And with the number of 36 rider's is the most important criteria for me not fulfilled. The same for Paris. Count the Americans away from the startinglist than you have the European riders. Paris has more than Antibes, but they haven't as many as Grueningen. I think the most important thing in setting the statuses is to look that as many as possible people in our region (Europe) can compete in high status competitions.

I think it will be important to get all criterias together and than give them a weighting.
In this way we will have the interessets of us all in the criterias. We have now enough time to make this ready for the 2007 season.

I know some are speaking about money. But at this point where we are now is no money in the sport. We have to look that we can grow slowly. That we can do when we make some standards/guidlines and when we make some target's which are measurable. I know Brixlegg offer's 10'000 Euro's but no other event can do the same. The entry fee of 100 Euro or 110 Euro it's too much. We have to set there a standard as well. There are many Pro's out there which have a small chance to rank high in the ranking to win some cash. That means they have every time only to pay that a few of them can win a small summ.

An Idea is to have a standard entry fee which is setted for the higher Statuses (Main / Major). A 10 or 20 percent from this money can go to the ISSA. From all this money the ISSA decide what the price money for which Status can be. That means all the higher Statuses (Main/Major) will have a guaranteed sum of price money. Than it's up to the organiser's if they want to make the price money higher. The information about the races can be listed on the ISSA website as well. Every contest will have some space to publish their information and all will be at the same adress under the name of ISSA. All the administration for registration can be done by ISSA. The payment of the entry fees as well. The organisers of the races will every time informed be over the internet who is registered and who has paid. There can be a standard how and when the money will be transferred to them.

In this way we will have a standard in event information (Website)/registration/ entryfees/ Status decision/ price money for all races, and a body/organisation which is behind it.

This is what i see in our situation where we are now. And in this way we can grow together to a good level. But what happens in the diffrent countries itself it's up to the people who live there.

This can be a start for the ISSA for the next two year's. When this things are done, we can look what we can do better and which things we can develop.

The question is, are the race organisers interested to have an organisation which define a standard which must be strictly adhered to?

/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:42 am

one thing i would like to add to your comment about high entry fees.
my point of view:
so 100 has been paid by a pro to enter my race f.e.
what does he get for it?
1 t-shirt of high quality which normally retails for 20,a bag filled with goodies,free drinks,free food,the chance to take a nab at the prize-money involved or all the other good stuff to be won.
non-monetary things involved are:one of the most impressive race tracks,a big skatepark with a big race and lots of side-events.
so,in the end,100 is not that much for getting so much back.


finally i'm asking myself why others are not able to give more back to the riders?
let's have peter,corky,and marcus stand as an exception to that question.
detlef surprised us last year with his goodie bag too-and he also had a free t-shirt.

that's a good and valid question.
feel free to comment on that one

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:10 pm

There are a lot of things what the rider get back from you. but count only the things what every rider get back.

The Slalom race should every time be the main focus.

I think there should be options in the packeges.

package 1
- only the entry fee. (the fee is setted by ISSA)
package 2
- with your free drinks / free food /t-shirt (package two) (the Fee is setted by race organizer)

Every location has his differents.
Every of us has his requirements. I was at 8 different locations in US and EU. And every location has his owen attractions. Every location has his owen storys. If Stockholm in the night club and golfing in the hotel or in West Verginia in the Pub with very diffrent people. Every of this experiences are at the same level. They are diffrent and this is what it makes very interesting to travel to. I can messure things which are similar, but i can't messure things which aren't similar. That's why i can't say which the best location was. But i can say which the best race was in organising and running the event.
finally i'm asking myself why others are not able to give more back to the riders?
let's have peter,corky,and marcus stand as an exception to that question.
detlef surprised us last year with his goodie bag too-and he also had a free t-shirt.
now there is one more criteria here.
Corky: spread the Statuses out over the season.
J-Rad: look that as many as possible europeans can attend the big races.
Don: give more back to the rider's.

the answer is:
every of the race organiser's has his owen priorities.

as example: for us it wasn't important to have big prices and stuff and so on. I think it was going under because we are focused on more important things from our view. At the other side we had the lowest entry fee, only 20 Euros.

When i have to mark this criteria in a scala from 1-10. I will give us the lowest a 1.

When you reflected your competition from year to year, you will get beter and beter.
It's a simple thing, but we did it. And we will do it again. That's the way of growing.

I think in our situation now, it's not important where you held a race. The important thing is the quality of your race. And there is no competition in this sport which do a perfect race. There will be every time things to do it in a beter way.

But to know what you can do beter and what the criteria are, you need a body/organisation which give you the criterias.

/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:07 pm

let's put this theoretical stuff to another level:
i'm talking about skateboard contests in general.

i am working as a professional skateboard manufacturer/supplier for a long time now.

fact is,that,if you hold a contest with nothing to win(MONEY),nobody will feel the need to come.

now that's a look at the real life.

what makes you think that people who are on a slalom-board are different from the rest of the world.
even though this section of skateboarding in general is still in its infant shoes,the time and the day will come that professional skaters want to see something for their efforts.

your thoughts so far are noble,jadranko,but they won't prevail in the real world for a longer time period.
denying that given fact would be absolutely stupid.

i am also talking about the quality of a race track.
i made sure that i get one of the most interesting tracks i've seen so far.
me and chris organizing the event speaks for itself regarding quality and accuracy.

there you go

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:54 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:fact is,that,if you hold a contest with nothing to win(MONEY),nobody will feel the need to come.

Ehm...sorry Donald but that's only half the truth. If you are talking about bigger contests, further away I agree. It's nice when you can get back some money you spent on travelling by prize money but does that fit to them who don't even expect to get prize money? All those Amateurs who will, once again, take back home some skateboard stuff?
If we look at Antibes for example: 12 of 36 riders (that makes a third!) from Switzerland went there - most of them Amateurs - just because they either had been there the year before and enjoyed it so much that it was out of discussion not to go or they had heard from those that it would be fun. Most of them knew that there wouldn't be no prize money and didn't expect to get some either.
Since quite all of us have to pay for the journeys and entry fees themselves, why should we keep the entry fees so high? Well ok, leave it as it is, I won't care because I don't really got a problem with getting back my entry fee...
But think about the others: Shall I have to pay for fun, for a nice weekend with friends? Every contest like a holiday?

What should a skater's moral be like?


May the question and answer round continue...


rmn
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:15 pm

Y'all should run a poll.

That makes everything better.
Image

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Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:55 pm

ramon

look at todays big constests street pool whatever

that's the future

even if some people don't like it

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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:18 am

let's blablablah too
Ramon and Jadranko, about amateurs prizes: entry fees are not (should not) be linked to the fact that there's a lot of prizes to win. The organizers don't have to buy stuff... they have to find sponsors that give them!
Even if we don't race for that, it's a bit deceiving to see quite big races with nearly nothing to win!

For the Pro we can understand that it's part of the game to pay more because a part goes to prize money.
This year in Paris there will be more money to win. The biggest part of the pro fees still go to prize money but the rest won't come from racers fees.
Yes Pro entry fees are not cheap, but it's a way to select who is really pro and who isn't (so for 3 days in Paris, only 25€ wasn't used for prize money and it included the foods!! A bargain!)
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:37 am

your thoughts so far are noble,jadranko,but they won't prevail in the real world for a longer time period.
denying that given fact would be absolutely stupid.
of corse it will. because we will measure, we will discuss, we will decide and there will be changes all the time to have it every time adapted for our requirements.


Did the street pool have an organisation which makes guidlines and rules or is this stuff only sponsored by a skate company which makes the tour ?

An Organisation which is construed on our present requirements don't exclude the way to have a sponsor who pay for a tour.

I think to go some steps forward is to create an Organisation which makes the guidlines and rules.

What does the other race organizers think ?

What does the riders think ?


J-Rad

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:43 am

Do you really select if someone is Pro if he can pay the entryfee of 100 Eur.?

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:44 am

blablablablah is the way of democracy.

You are now a part of it.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:39 am

Vincent Berruchon wrote: let's blablablah too
Ramon and Jadranko, about amateurs prizes: entry fees are not (should not) be linked to the fact that there's a lot of prizes to win. The organizers don't have to buy stuff... they have to find sponsors that give them!
Even if we don't race for that, it's a bit deceiving to see quite big races with nearly nothing to win!
I'm not saying that the entry fees would be used for buying prizes. But Whatever.
Donald Campbell wrote: ramon

look at todays big constests street pool whatever

that's the future

even if some people don't like it
Why shall we have to go the same way? - Because it seems to be sucsessful - I see....hum

Wesley Tucker wrote: Y'all should run a poll.

That makes everything better.
The problem with polls on the forum is that everybody can, anonymously take a vote (okay democracy, yes, but then everybody should have to take a vote).


It's up to...us.

rmn
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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:50 am

reflecting back on the history of contests in street or pool,we all can see a simple fact:
when these things get bigger and more attractive,bigger companies will chime in and as a side-effect,they will decide what's happening or what not.
if you-as an organizer-think differently about their demands,chances are high that all the money that makes the event possible will be withdrawn.

i do have the freedom of choice-this time.

brixlegg will happen as i want it to happen.the sponsors know what i will do and its cool with them.


the problem is see with you,jadranko,ramon also(only partly),is,that you never had the chance to work with skate-related companies who flowed the dough for a contest.
this is a whole different deal.

we can decide what we want,when this thing gets bigger,money and companies will decide what happens and what not.

of course you can complain now and say"hey,i will not go there" but trust me-others will.

once there is enough money in the pot,the game will be a different one.

i don't want to be your big poppa to give you advices,but i can share my knowledge with you,ok?

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:07 pm

once there is enough money in the pot,the game will be a different one.
I belive that will be as you said.

But the money isn't here at the moment.
No one of us knows when this will come or if it will come.

It works in the pool street thing because there are so many people who do this and who buy the Stuff of this companys. That's way the Skate Companys invest in this. This contests are their business.

We have other premises, that's the fact because i think it isn't that way.

Other organisation like the FIS has their body and they say to the sponsors what the way is not the sponsors to the organisation.

The companys will give the money as long as they have profit. We saw it in Stockholm. Marcus wrote, that without the Pool race maybe they won't get the money of WESC.

An Organisation on the other site can control and look that they can make intersting sponsorchips for the companies.

/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:10 pm

each organization needs money to act.
there are always certain costs involved when you run such a body.


who's gonna pay for that?

thats the big question.

on a side note: i really enjoy going to slalom contests, since the whole structure of the contests is so virgin and somehow pure.
absolutely different than other contests.

just to let you know.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:57 pm

who's gonna pay for that?
Here in Switzerland is easy to build an organisation. That's way the most international organisation are founded here.

The costs depends on what you want to do.

It's only possible with a lot of work which wouldn't be paid for.


/J-Rad

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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:49 pm

Ramón Königshausen wrote:everybody should have to take a vote
What if i have no opinion ?

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:59 pm

So then one option will be like "I don't care". Ergo: you'll take your vote on that.

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Post by Etienne de Bary » Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:21 pm

OK :)

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:08 am

No more info has come out to change the current proposals. I think the current status proposals looks more and more decided for 2006.

Sure there are some less good things that Jadranko and others may have pointed out but so there will always be. Most important is that we take them into account. And that we have. So for example even if I agree that France having two Main statuses is not ideal there are other reasons weighing it up this time.

There are still two more Prime statuses free. Don has shown interest in one for the April 2 race in Cologne. There are already 2 Primes in June. I think it would be nice to have some for the later season as well. Cologne is urgent do discuss now. If we want to save both statuses for August and later then we can wait and see what events will come up during the middle and end of the season.

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