[2006] Region West Atlantic: USA East

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[2006] Region West Atlantic: USA East

Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:45 am

World Ranking status for 2006
______________________________________
USA East have 2 Mains and 3 Primes for 2006
______________________________________

Main status subjects (2 Main)
[Main] Vista, New York | The Farm 6.0 | Aug 4-5 (33 points)
[Main] Statesville and Winston-Salem, North Carolina | 2nd Annual Downhillbillies Dixie Cup | November 3-5 (38 points)

Prime status subjects (3 Primes for 2006)
[Prime] Jackson, Mississippi | Luna Slalom Jam | May 5 (18 points)
[Prime] Columbus, Ohio | The 2nd Annual Buckeye Open | June 23-25 (27 points)
[Prime] Chicago | Chi-Town Shootout | September? (21 points)


Basic and Plain statuses don't need any discussion since they are decided only on date when they are officially announced.
More than 1 month = Basic status. Less than 1 month = Plain status.
Last edited by Hans Koraeus on Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:49 am, edited 11 times in total.

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:15 pm

Korky,

Why doesn't the East get a major? Can we apply for it?

Thank you for your info,

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Post by Chris Favero » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:27 pm

yes i agree.east deserves a major.north america is not relevant to europe in size.chicago to SoCal os like NY to Iceland in distance.cf
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Post by Christopher Bara » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:27 pm

Far be it from me to post my opinion.....

but after talking to Gale, i got the impression that there wasnt going to be a W.V. race in 2006. Let's try not to get ourselves in another SNAFU similar to this years Dixie Cup. However, in comparing one venue to another, the St Louis race is more of a Prime than a Basic....both in size and in the skill level.
Chicago also has the potential to be a larger race.

At this time there is nothing official in Cali.....but East of the Miss. looks like it's about to explode.....strange days....

finally....Korky....please pencil in Mollicas Columbus Slalom Series (name may be changed, but the series is a "go")
It'll be 4 or 5 races in Columbus Ohio, ....expect it to draw some big names
More info coming soon.

Never been to the Farm, but that's largely due to the cost of getting there...Athens is easier to get to....and it's a huge draw...Both are good Major candidates....big drawback with the Farm, though, is the limitation on the number of skaters who can sign up...and damn...that calendar fills up fast

Favero....you still have those riser pads?

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Last edited by Christopher Bara on Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Chris Favero » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:29 pm

plus the farm has five years under its belt.how many majors have that number of years in the same spot,by the same promoters going for it.cf
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Post by Chris Favero » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:35 pm

i just looked at the wests agenda,uh,Corky,you need to visit the states soon.the majority of the slalom races and racers are in the east.i am not dissin the west,i love my west coast bros,but the only time races in the west got over 30 racers was when the east showed up.farm series,athens,luna,even chicago drew well considering it was only AM and basic status.look at the sign ups they tell the story.cf
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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:43 pm

Korky,

Also - How do we petition to change the rules for transfering status?

Anyone that attended the race in NC last weekend will attest that it was due a Prime status at the very least. We need to reward hardwork like Marions, but more so develop some rule to insure cancelled races don't mean alotted points go unused.

I know you are on board with this. How do we change it?

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Post by Mike Cividino » Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:23 pm

and when we change lets have it work retroactively. The NC race was HUGE, it will go down as the biggest BASIC in history. When it could go down as one of the great prime races of all time.

Is it too late for a new years garage race to get that extra status?

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Help me understand

Post by Marty Schaub » Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:29 pm

Corky, Joe I or?

Are there stated reasons/rules why the East gets 2 main, 2 prime, etc? And is there criteria posted on majors? Is there a printed rundown on how this is divided and decided worldwide?

I would like to read up on this. Where can I find it?????
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The USA is a BIG FRIGGIN' PLACE!

Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:47 pm

OK.

Three things. I'm assuming this was Corky's decision but it may also have had some input from others. I don't know. But in the USA, the dividing line is the Mississippi River. That means Texas and St. Louis are in the Region West Atlantic: USA West. So they have to compete with the Western states for whatever race categories are available.

Secondly, Canada has their own region, so any racing up there has no impact on the available race categories for those of us in the Region West Atlantic: USA East.

Finally, Corky likes to emphasize this is OUR ranking system and we need to make our input known as to what we want. I would make the following suggestion:

Region West Atlantic: USA East
Region West Atlantic: USA West
Region West Atlantic: USA MIDWEST

This new Midwest region would include Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisianna, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas and Winsconsin. This new region (which has a population of around 103,000,000 people) would then have access to Major, Main, Prime and Basic racing.
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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:09 pm

Marty,

Start here and follow the links.

viewtopic.php?t=1646&highlight=

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2006 Dixie Cup

Post by Marion Karr » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:11 pm

The 2006 Dixie Cup will be held November 3rd, 4th, and 5th in Statesville and Winston-Salem, North Carolina and will be looking to upgrade its status SIGNIFICANTLY for 2006.
We will be working with Joe I, Tway, 66, Dave G and others in this region to position all of our races to the best benefit of all of the racers.

I will assure you that the DHB will work (and is already working) toward making the 2006 Dixie Cup even better than 2005.
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Post by Christopher Bara » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:53 pm

Columbus Slalom Series:

Kenny and i will work out some details over the next couple weeks, but looking at the 2005 calendar for time gaps, it looks like there'll be a race at the Columbus Derby hill the 2nd Saturday of every month, March thru June....possibly July as well.

It's almost as steep as Hobby Hill, not much run out but the grass is soft and if you have a pistolfoam kicktail you may be able to ollie over to that parked semi...i attached a picture...
Image

heh heh heh


Mark it on your calendar folks

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Post by Chris Barrett » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:16 pm

holy hell... thats gonna require some HARD bushings... Is that TRULY a sopabox derby hill? Any other shots available?

Also; is it common to see derby hills used for slalom, these kids appear to be doing it, but they're riding some weird skateboards.

Image
Image

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Post by Jeff Goad » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:19 am

so, who is it that i need to give a hand job to so that the st louis race is more than a basic?

2006 will be the 5th race we have had.
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Hands off

Post by Marty Schaub » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:25 am

JG,

With Wes's proposal you guys in your region can save the hand cream and have 2 primes and 2 mains to decide from.
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My Proposal with a little detail

Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:45 am

OK,

I'm not one to point a finger and say, "somebody needs to do something!" without providing some support to make it work. So I crunched a couple of number, played with photoshop and came up with this to support my assertiont the USA needs three regions. Here's the breakdown of the population of the proposed three regions:

Image

And after the realignment, the USA would look like this:

Image

This accomplished two things:

1. Allows more designated races for the largest group of racers on Earth

2. Allows racers to travel less to get to Major, Main and Prime events

It's very simple and very logical. Or does someone think we American racers should travel 1000s of miles in order to get some prime points? That's the only reason I can see against making this change.
Image

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Post by Christopher Bara » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:09 am

Right on Goad....St Louis is Prime.......

start the petition

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:21 am

S#it! I lost all my text trying to post. Arhhh. Well, well let's go at it again.

1.
Try fix that wide picture. It makes the whole forum go astray.

2.
We have had the discussion about adding a third USA mid region before. I just don't find it now so I will try to write a short version of it all.

USA may divide itself into whatever regions they like. But you should be aware of that the total number of statuses for USA will not change. Currently it is 5 Main and 5 Prime statuses. This is balanced against Europes 4 Main and 4 Prime statuses. So if you create a mid region that will decrease statuses from one of the USA West or USA East regions.

The advantage with many regions is that it makes sure the regions will have a specific number of statuses in their neighborhood. The disadvantage is that you get tied up geographically to where you will have to give out statuses.

The advantage with less regions is that you are more free to shape the total yearly slalom scene depending on what organizers rise up to the occasion. The disadvantage is that it may be harder to agree on selecting statuses on such a large region.

Europe could have been divided into 2 regions as well but it seemed more flexible to have one. USA is bigger so the situation is a little bit different.

Another thing. When dividing regions maybe it's more interesting dividing them depending on the number of slalom racers than the population in general. In Europe there are many countries with no slalomscene at all. I guess it's the same with your States.

In the end it's up to you. For a change it will need to have input also from people in the USA West region. This is somthing that concerns the whole USA slalom scene.

If you go ahead it would be good to have some sort of decission before the 2006 season starts January 1:st.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:42 am

And yes, about the Major status. One of the Mains in the West Atlantic region (South America, USA West, USA East and Canada) should be upgraded to Major status. This has been easy so far for you since you have had the World Championships in Morro Bay the past years. World Championships automatically gets Major status.

This year when the worlds have moved over to the East Atlantic region (Europe, Russia, Asia, Australia) you are in a whole new situation. You will have to discuss and decide. That is maybe why discussions in the European region have been so much more lively. We have had some hard discussion about the Worlds and some was a little bit worried about the tone sometimes. But now that is finally settled with "Brixlegg, Austria" as the World Championships for 2006.

The Major status concerns the whole West Atlantic region and should be discussed here. Let's see what discussions and surprises that lay ahead.

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Post by Christopher Bara » Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:10 pm

OK...in looking at this and the USA West site...the East has 2 mains or 1 major/1 main....
The West has 3 mains or 1 major/2 mains
One of the races on the calendar for the West is Morro, which we already know wont be the world championship for 2006.
The east is filling up fast.

Main candidates already include:
The Dixie Cup
Columbus Buckeye Challenge
Athens Red Clay Cup
The Farm

Wouldnt it make sense at this point to switch the East West loads and allow 3 big races in the East this year, and 2 in the west?

Make Breck the US major (it's the US championships) and the Hood River a Main

Let the (4) main candidates in the East duke it out for the (3) remaining main races and the 4th becomes a prime...

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Post by Chris Favero » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:47 pm

corky,bull.what we are saying is ,it is hardship to have to travel the distances we do in order to remain competetive in the point standings with the europeans.we also have a mature race scene with many able promoters.2005 of all the races i went to,one was main,the rest were basic,come on.we have far more ground to cover.average expense to go to the west or east coast is 1000$US to race.i really feel sorry for anyone on either coast trying to get to the opposite.california alone is a 3 day drive out of chicago.i know having been based out of the uk for work in the past i could get to geneva out of heathrow in 1 hour,eurostar to paris 3 hours.chicago to statesville NC?12 hours,and thats prolly the only one that was close enough to drive to.the US needs more regions and more main and prime races allocated to those regions.listen to the constituency.in the past 30 days,the world ranking system has lost a lot of relevancy in the minds of people i know,keep the course steady and it will lose the balance.
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Time for a change

Post by Claude Regnier » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:17 pm

Maybe one of you photoshop guru's could could copy and paste the US & Canada around the Europen community.

Apart from the long driving distances to races the cost of Air fare in North America is also prohibitive for most people.

You just don't catch a flight here for 3.99 pounds one way. You are Lucky if you ever find a deal at the right time for less then $4 or $5 HUNDRED. Then there is the auto, lodging, entry fees, food and such.

Maybe when this was all getting going it did not matter too much about the regions to many of us. It is now time to take a good serious look into the system and make some changes and modifications.

We could also look into adding some 1.1's and 1.2's for redesignating statuses for canceled events due to weather, premits or other possibilities.

California, is a four day drive from Ottawa by the way. We hit Chicago early the next morning after a brief nap. Now the cost of fuel doesn't even make that feasable anymore.

Keep scheduling guys I envision a long road trip next year, EH!
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:30 pm

A good argument with the distances in the US.

You are all right, but it depends where you live. From Switzerland you can go to every competition, the Swedes and Latvians are in the North of Europe, for them it is harder to attend all the races. US is another thing you have to travel for hours to attend a competition. Fayetteville to Athens is the same distance as from Zurich to Antibes or Paris or Hannover.

Corky, there are a lot of inputs from the Europeans and the US. And now (the end of the season) is the best time to change some things. There will be a lot of events in Europe and the US next year, is there a possibility to go up with the main and prime statuses?

Perhaps if you go up with the statuses you can count more than 6/8 races for the rankings?

/J-Rad

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Good Point

Post by Marty Schaub » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:21 pm

J-rad,

You make a great point. Why not increase the numbers per region? They were planned when races were fewer, right? Shouldn't more begit more?

The key thing here though is that this issue should be decided quickly to allow for planning on both continents.
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Dixie Cup Is A Case In Point For Expansion

Post by Marion Karr » Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:05 pm

I agree with Marty and J Rad. The Dixie Cup is a great example of how the sport is growing. It was a first time race and we had guys travel from 18 states and Canada to get here. Mollica is going to put on a new series of races in Ohio that will be well attended.
New organizations are forming and the sport is growing. NOW is the time to expand the number of Mains, Primes, etc. for all areas.

If we want this sport to grow, then we have to make it easier for race promoters to attract skaters. By increasing the opportunities through expansion of the race status allotment it will greatly help insure this growth.

The Farm should be a MAIN. Athens with its tradition should be a MAIN. Either one of these groups could very well with their experience host a MAJOR>

The Dixie Cup, though, new, has the organization and backing from two cities, (Statesville and Winston-Salem, North Carolina) to be a MAIN. This is the Status we want.

Mollica's race in Ohio will have the attendance that could warrent a MAIN designation as well.

Let's grow our sport. Expand the opportunities for both us and the Europeans. It's time.
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Post by Marion Karr » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:41 pm

Quiet in here all of a sudden....

OK, what do we have to do as an international skate organization to get the number of Mains and Primes expanded for each region of the world? What is our next step?

Today is November 16. 2006 is right around the corner. How do we get this ball rolling ?

Based on the input from a great deal of people in the know I have come to the conclusion that the one MAJOR needs to be in Colorado in conjunction with the US Nationals. I have emailed back and forth with Fluitt and some things may be changing there in terms of venue but the one MAJOR should be there.

The Dixie Cup does have aspirations of hosting a MAJOR in the future and we feel strongly that we have the organization and locations to do so. For now, though we need to learn more and more but feel that with the right support and effort the 2006 race should be a MAIN.

As much as I appreciate Marty's confidence in our abilities to host a MAJOR the DHB as an organization still needs to learn more about this sport and improve upon what we have started before we bite off that hunk to chew.

Where do we go from here?
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Post by Marion Karr » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:57 pm

Testing? Testing? Is This Thing on? Testing?

I know this is on the verge of the Holiday season and all but don't you think we need to hammer out the ratings issues for next year's Calendar since the first race, The Texas Sizzler, is slated for February? There may be even one before then.

I think it is time we look to expand, as J Rad so clearly pointed out, the number of higher point value races in each region of the world. What is our next step to accomplish this?

If not, what reasons are there to stick with the current number of races designates?

Our sport is growing. The DHB is only one example of that growth. Time for our number of Primes and Mains to grow with it.

If there is no discussion, I decree it so. (that should get them talking...)
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We're Here!

Post by Claude Regnier » Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:06 am

Marion we are here and waiting in the wings. I guess most people want to see what's on the complete schedule for next season.

There is also McCree/Hacket Series that should possibly be considered.

Hell I don't know but your right it suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure got quiet in here.

Also you know it's okay to talk to yourself but you should not answer.
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:00 pm

I have been away for a week and have not have time to answer some of the proposals for the World Ranking system.

Concerning the world ranking system I have written some text here.

The finishing line is...
I have said this many times before. And each time I think about these changes I feel that sometimes that we are trying to solve regional problems with the world ranking system. Regional problems should be solved with regional series (American Cup, European Cup, aso). Only World balance problems should be solved with the World Ranking system.
For USA East this could mean...
1. Maybe you are missing an American Cup/Series.
2. Maybe you are missing an Eastern American Cup/Series including Canada.

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Post by Marion Karr » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:46 pm

Corky,
Thank you for the feedback and the info but I am still not sure what our next step should be.

I am also not sure how the need to increase the number of higher level races in order to support the growth of our sport is a "regional issue" as opposed to world wide one. Would not every slalom skater potentially benefit from having more higher level races from which to choose?

Regarding the World Ranking system, I think it is great to be able to see where you stand in relationship to your "peers" in the sport and that the current system does go along way in that goal. As a newbie to the sport, I can't imagine all of the time you have spent on devising a system that works as well as it does.

I am of the opinion that regional series such as an America's Cup or European Cup would be a great addition to our sport and help it grow. By developing a cooperative effort between the different organizations currently putting on races, we do have an opportunity to grow our sport collectively.

Corky, please forgive the ignorance, but what do we do now? The East Coast of the US scene is going to explode in the next two years. We have great examples to follow with The Farm, Athens, St. Louis, Chicago, Luna, and Texas. With the addition of the Buckeye Open in Ohio, and the DHB Dixie Cup, we have an opportunity to promote our sport significantly. How do we get these different groups the recogniztion and status that 1. they deserve, and 2. will help insure the value of each race to the racers!

What should be our next step?
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Git R done

Post by Marty Schaub » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:36 am

In 11 days I believe there has been some excellent discussion in this forum. But as Marion asks "where do we go from here?"

We have pontificated on re-aligning the US, adding status, taking status from other areas, etc. Why don't we get a list together of the races that are planned now for the US. Then let's look at what's where. Then let's decide if we want to do three regions. Then let's decide if we want to expand the parameters to include more designations. Then let's decide where those designations should go. Then let's assign designations to races.

Corky, as I see it YOU are the major player here. You are the keeper of the rules and of the rankings. We want to expand the US, that is no secret. BUT it effects Europe too. We need informed and concise decisions to be made now in order to plan next year.

I am an impatient pragmatist. I plan ahead, that's what I do. I want to make plans for next year knowing which race holds what ranking.

I'll fire the first shot too. Tucker you are a very knowledgeable person as this stuff goes. Can we get a list of the races planned this year in the US and Europe that includes their status last year (if applicable), the number of attendees broken down by pro & am (if applicable) and what type of racing was done (GS, Hybrid, Tight).

I think this list would assist in seeing what is on the burner for next year, what status they raced under this year and THEN you could decide to allow growth or remain status quo.

I guess what I am going for here is that you need all of the facts before you decide. When I call a meeting you can rest assured that I prepare beforehand. Is this where we go first, factfinding?

OK ya'll let's hear what you have to say.
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:47 am

I am thrilled to see with how much energy you are giving to this task. The answer of your problems is maybe what I said above.

1. Maybe you are missing an American Cup/Series.
2. Maybe you are missing an Eastern American Cup/Series including Canada.

What better way is there to grow the sport and make it easier for people to attend the races than regional series. There are already a bunch of them starting to show up in Europe. It have already started in the States too. Kenny is the latest in the row. Why not go with that? With a regional cup/series all your selected "bigger" races could get equal importance.

Then the next level may be an American Cup. Already there you would have to select a choosen few from all the existing events. Then maybe there will be a World Cup. Then again, you would have to select a choosen few from existing big events.

Looking at it like that the World Ranking statuses is not the ultimate measure of what is good and less good. It is just a selected few of many good events. Nothing else. Events with lower World Ranking statuses could very well be very important from other point of views.

I don't know if this makes things clearer for you.

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Post by Marty Schaub » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:17 pm

Corky,

Could you please define what you mean by a "series?" Is it that we tie several races together into a series then they can all share that status?

By that statement you can probably figure out that I don't understand.

What do you mean by a series? How does it assuage a situation where we have more races in one region than another? How are the results recorded in the rankings? Do the races stand alone or is there one cumulative result?

Also, here is another neophyte question. If there is a GS & a Hybrid. Or a GS and a tight at a particular contest, doesn't that count as two seperate results in the rankings? If thats the case one would not need to attend more races, just ones with multiple courses and results, correct?

Also, under the current system, if a region does not have enough high level races, can those unused status's be re-assigned to another region? This could cure the US's ills right there.......


And BTW guys, I know your reading this stuff. Let's get some chime in from the gallery about what it is the US should or shouldn't do.
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:53 pm

Marty, the series which Corky is talking about has nothing to do with the statuses of the races.

Normaly if you build somthing you start at the bottom. The problem of the ISSA is, that the ISSA is on the top and now we start to build it from the top to the bottom.

Some countries here in Europe makes their owen series. Some try to have more people involved in the sport, some just for fun.

I don't see the importance of a European or American Series. We have enough big races.

Why we don't have just World Cup's ? One of them is every year the World Championchips. One in the US the America Cup and one in Europe the Europe Cup at this races only the people from the continent can attend the race.

I rode last time somwhere in the internet: David Hackett won the European Championchips ? If it's the European Championchips, how an American can win it ? It makes no sense.

If there are more prime and main Statuses and at the same time the number of counted races for the ranking rise, then is there for shure no problem with the balance of the ranking.

At the most races you have 3 pointed races which count's for the ranking. As an Example in Europe you attend Brixlegg (3 counted races), Riga (3 counted races), Antibes (3 counted races), Grueningen (2 counted races). That mean that you have 11 race results (now it's 8) in 4 races. It should be possible to attend 4 races.

In my point of view it is the job of the ISSA to get the race series together. The races are still there, they now need only to pick some of them for a race series, make a Website, the rules, the standard what the race must have, the guidlines to candidate to be involved in the Series, guidlines to change the locations from year to year. Than call it the World Cup Series and there will be a serious ranking. Than you can look for some sponsors and so on... I'm shure in this way no one will be disaffected.

How it is done now with the statuses it's for me a joke. We are talking about advantiges and disadvantiges about the races. There are a lot of allegations
and some personaly attacks which needn't to be.

My questions are:

What did the ISSA since they renew ?

What are the goals for the next 2-3 year's ?

That are very important questions for an organisation !

Let us organise some things ! How you see there are a lot of people who want to change somthings. What it need's is the ISSA who cordinate this things and communicate the rules, the locations, the guidlines and so on to the rider's, organisators, and media.

The communication in the country where the race is held must be done by the organicers of the race, with guidlines from the ISSA.

/J-Rad

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Post by Marion Karr » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:40 pm

Corky, Thanks for posts and the info. A friend told me this morning a bit of really good advise that I plan on following before I make any more comments regarding this topic.
He said that before I go tearing off on a quest to change something I first need to understand everything about it in its current form.
On www.slalomranking.com under the Administration area there is a very complete list of rules and related info that explains how this whole thing is set up. Before I dive headlong even further into this discussion I plan on making myself very familiar with this information.

The situation as it now appears, as it was pointed out, was not an issue until the WV race was cancelled and the Prime status was "lost" for this region of the world. We definitely need to work with Corky on creating a rule to allow other organizations to gain this "lost" status in the case of a cancellation. This, however, is a seperate issue to the one being discussed here.

I still in my heart believe that the number of primes and mains available to all areas of the world should be expanded, however, I need to learn more before I can assert that belief with the full gusto with which I am capable of pleading my case.

Regardless, The 2nd Annual Dixie Cup, to be held on November 3, 4, and 5, 2006 is going to FREAKIN ROCK!

"The DHB Dixie Cup, smaller than a Prime, bigger than the WORLDS!"
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:37 pm

Oops. Lot's of text. I will try to answer some of the questions and remarks.

Marty wrote:Could you please define what you mean by a "series?"
Jadranko explained some of it. What I mean is that we should not stare ourselves blind on the World Ranking. The World Ranking is really fun and a good motivator but it should not be seen as the only one. By creating other series on different levels they could for some people be just as important. Depending of what your goal is... be better than your friends in the Farm series, be better than your fellow countrymen in an American Cup, be the best from your region in the US Nationals or take on the slalomers of the world in the World Ranking.

You could have multiple goals of course. And if you do you just have to be aware of what events are included in the Farm series. What events are included in an American Cup. When is the US Nationals. What events have been selected out for high World Ranking statuses the coming season. In some cases all your goals could come together in one single event. In other cases you might have to be selectable. It's a question of time and money too.

The series does not change how the World Ranking works but it takes some of the load off it. Everything can't be solved with the World Rankings. Some things are solved much better with a regional series or cup.
Marty wrote:Also, here is another neophyte question. If there is a GS & a Hybrid. Or a GS and a tight at a particular contest, doesn't that count as two seperate results in the rankings? If thats the case one would not need to attend more races, just ones with multiple courses and results, correct?
Jadranko wrote:At the most races you have 3 pointed races which count's for the ranking. As an Example in Europe you attend Brixlegg (3 counted races), Riga (3 counted races), Antibes (3 counted races), Grueningen (2 counted races). That mean that you have 11 race results (now it's 8) in 4 races. It should be possible to attend 4 races.
That would not be fair. The rules have solved this by stating that you can only count 2 disciplines per event. This is very good to know. You should also avoid giving a high World Ranking status to an event with only one discipline.
Marty wrote:if a region does not have enough high level races, can those unused status's be re-assigned to another region?
No. If you as a racer want more higher World Ranking Statuses you have to travel more. If you as an event organizer want higher World Ranking status you have to convince people in your region that you are worth it. There are many ways you could get an edge over other events. Choose a date during the season where no other events are happening. Choose a part of the region where there are very few events at all. Get some good sponsors so that you can have some price money. Give good deals for hotels and help out with transport. And of course make a great and fun event that people like.
Jadranko wrote:I read somwhere on the internet: David Hackett won the European Championships ? If it's the European Championships, how can an American win it ? It makes no sense.
It's not very clear but it makes sense. The European Championships was an Open competition and was included in the World Ranking. If it would have been closed to only Europeans it would not have counted to the World Rankings. He won one of the disciplines at the event "European championships" but he is not the European champion. Only a European can be a European champion. That is why we made specific European championships result lists for the event with only the Europeans. See EC home page.
Jadranko wrote:If there are more prime and main Statuses and at the same time the number of counted races for the ranking rise, then there is no problem with the balance of the ranking.
That is correct and what I have mentioned before. But are we ready to force everybody to compete more for the World Ranking? It's always the risk that the attandence factor grows too big. That has already been critics about that with the current system. Increasing the minimum event limit would also increase the attandence factor.
Jadranko wrote:What did the ISSA since they renew ?
Don't ask what ISSA can do for you. Ask what you can do for ISSA.

Marion,
The rules around the rankings have grown over the years with input and experience from the slalom scene. There are quite a lot to read and not easy to grasp in one time. I understand people don't have the energy to dive into it and that it is much easier to ask when problems occur. But than you also have to be ready to take the hits when there are things you have missed out on. Trial and error is what we all do the most I guess. But if you are really interested in changing the system it's not a bad idea to know the system first as your friend told you. But as I said. It's easier said than done.

Anyway, I will help out explaining whatever you wonder about during your research.

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Post by Marion Karr » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:02 pm

Corky,
I am not completely hell bent on changing this system as much as I am interested in learning how it works and what we need to do to be a part of it so that our race and any other race or event the DHB are involved with is in the best interest of the skaters.....period.

DHB events are by the skaters for the skaters.

I do have a comment however regarding the point about race status in a region and "convincing" the skaters if we are worth a higher ranking or not. The Dixie Cup was a new race but we did many of the things you mentioned- obtained significant product sponsorship, obtained good hotel rates in a very convenient location, and put on an event that was "Fun"!. Now, we are faced with competing with the Farm and the Athens races for the limited slots for World Cup status and I have no interest in competing with Tway/Joe or 66. They were each inspirational and supportive of the DHB efforts and now because of the structure of the World Rankings race status designation we are now put in a position to be competing with them. I can't see how that helps the sport at all. Creating potentially adversarial relationships between race promoters in a given region makes absolutely no sense. I guess you can argue that as race promoters, if we are competing for the "hearts of the skaters" by putting on a better event than the other race promoters, then ultimately the skaters will benefit. I am a free market supporter and businessman so I understand the concept of competition in this regard, however, when it comes to slalom skating, shouldn't we be working together to improve the sport rather than pursuing our own personal interests and aspirations?

I plan on doing what I said I was going to do....learn as much about the current structure as possible, however, I can see where this is going. The bottom line is this, there is no mechanism in place now, or to be put into place any time in the near future that will allow any change in the current "world order". The number of primes, mains, and majors are fixed and finite. I guess if it ain't broke we don't need to fix it.

Regardless of our status the 2006 Dixie Cup is going to Rock! If skaters want to be a part of it they will come regardless of the status. They proved that at the beginning of this month. From this point forward the DHB is going to concentrate its efforts on growing our sport and putting on the best race possible. Dixie Cup- smaller than a PRime, bigger than the worlds!

Corky, thank you again for all you have done to create this amazing organization call ISSA.
I can tell already from the limited reading and studying I have done that you have put more time into this than most people put into any one activity in their life time.

Marion
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:47 am

Marion wrote:I am not completely hell bent on changing this system as much as I am interested in learning how it works and what we need to do to be a part of it so that our race and any other race or event the DHB are involved with is in the best interest of the skaters.....period.
So what is the best interest of the skaters? That you don't compete for a Main Status with Tway/Joe or 66?
Marion wrote:Now, we are faced with competing with the Farm and the Athens races for the limited slots for World Cup status and I have no interest in competing with Tway/Joe or 66.
1. That means you say you want a Main status and at the same time you say you don't.
2. You are apperantly not taking the bate with regional series. You are still only seeing the World Ranking. And if that is your personal belief that high World Ranking status on your event is in the best interest of the skaters you will be competing with other events weather you like it or not.
3. Competing with other organizers doesn't mean you have to fight each other. The best solution is if you can agree on a solution that is good for all of you. Some of the World Rankings are running over multiple years and sharing the high statuses every other year could be in the interest of the racers as well as the organizers. One year Main, next Prime aso. Racers get more different Main status sites and organizers can go 100% one year and take a breath the next year.
Marion wrote:I am a free market supporter and businessman so I understand the concept of competition in this regard, however, when it comes to slalom skating, shouldn't we be working together to improve the sport rather than pursuing our own personal interests and aspirations?
Aren't you pursuing your own personal interest and aspiration of higher World Ranking status? Isn't a regional series better to improve the sport? You can turn things in many directions. That is why we need many slalom related initiatives. The World Ranking is one. Local series another. Outlaw events, jams, gathering, sessions, camps, magazines, films, slalom products, forums like this, you name it. No single thing will by itself improve the sport. Many different things will.
Marion wrote:however, I can see where this is going. The bottom line is this, there is no mechanism in place now, or to be put into place any time in the near future that will allow any change in the current "world order". The number of primes, mains, and majors are fixed and finite. I guess if it ain't broke we don't need to fix it.
Wrong! This is the time to discuss and change things for the better.
Marion wrote:Corky, thank you again for all you have done to create this amazing organization called ISSA.
Jani was the creator and the main force behind ISSA in the past. I have only been a helping hand along the way, now and then. ISSA have been sleeping for a while. Jani has tried to get ISSA into a new shape for the new times we are seeing. But with him not having time and energy to make things happen as before there seems to be no other strong enough to take his place. So, not much happens. I think it's hard enough for people putting down a lot of time, money and energy on things that concerns them personally. But doing the same only for the best interest of the sport and others is too much for most humans. And damn difficult too. Democracy is good but it takes a lot of energy from everybody involved. And on top of it you get a lot of shit for doing it. Anybody interested in the job? ;-)

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Post by Marion Karr » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:38 am

Great retort with some valid responses to my points. Yes, you are right, I did post earlier, based on what we the DHB agreed was where we wanted to take the next Dixie Cup, that we would like to be a Main. However, now that I realize that in order to get that status it could have a detrimental effect on two other promoters who have been around much longer than I or the DHB and whose races have gone on much longer, I and the DHB have decided that we withdraw our specific request for a Main. If the racers in this region of the world want to lobby for that status assignment for the Dixie Cup we will support it. However, The DHB will accept whatever status you see fit to give us be it Main or Basic. Regardless of that status, we will do everything in our power to put on the best damn race any rider has ever attended.

The Dixie Cup was put together not to gain recognition for ourselves. (And personally I am not out for self gain with the increase in status....have you seen me skate...dude I suck). The essence of the Dixie Cup is that it was all about the skater having a good time and being motivated by the sport. Our whole goal was to put on the best race event possible and "fuel the stoke" of slalom. I believe we accomplished that goal. I also believe that 2006 and beyond will see us continue to improve upon what we have started with this year's event. If you read all of the reviews on our race the common thread through almost every single one was the vibe at the Dixie Cup. How everyone was together, having a good time, and "learning the meaning of southern hospitality." It didn't hurt we had great weather (thank you, God), an awesome group of competitors, good venues and courses, and not one but two supportive local governments. Call us a Basic, a Prime, a Main, or a Nothing and we will still have all of these things.

Corky, please understand my previous post was no way intended as a personal shot. Those people who know me know that is not my style or personality. I am still going to read the rules...matter of fact, printed all 27 pages off tonight.....and want to learn more so that I can understand as much of this ranking system as possible. I will not, however, spend any more energy focused on status as it relates to the Dixie Cup.

Our status is determined (and forever will be so) by the stoke of the riders and others who attend DHB events. Not by anything else. If a rider chooses not to attend our race because the points potential, or lack there of, the DHB understand that decision. So be it.
As long as we continue to put on an event that stays focused on the goals we set forth regarding the first race we will not go wanting for participants.
The Dixie Cup will stay true to its roots. Hillbillies who skate and want to show others a great time, a destination for riders to bring their families, and to compete in some seriously great venues!


Thank you again...and thanks to Jani for actually creating an organization that could make such a discussion as we have had even possible by designing infrastructure to the sport.

The Dixie Cup, smaller than a prime, bigger than the worlds!"
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points, status and such.......

Post by Brent » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:02 pm

I have yet to post in this forum until now; so for those who do not know me, I am Brent Griffith, lead promotions person and "CORE" member of the DHB. After reading the above exchanges I wanted to put my .02 into the mix concerning the Dixie Cup for 2006. I am a lifer when it comes to skating but a newbie when it comes to slalom so I am new to the whole points and race status system within the slalom community. It seems that everyone here is a competitor on one level or another and so with the success of the 1st Annual Dixie Cup, the competitive nature within the DHB was to try and gain the most status possible for our race. However, now that some time has passed and the DHB has had time to sit back and reflect on the Dixie Cup and now that the post race praise has settled down, the DHB would like to say that we are focused more than ever on the beliefs and goals of what the DHB is all about, to promote skating at the grassroots level, to promote skating of all levels and disciplines in a positive and informative way and to invite and welcome anyone and everyone to come ride with us. For those of you who attended the Dixie Cup and know what the DHB are all about, we look forward to seeing our new friends again and to those who didn't make it, we look forward to making new friends next year. The commitment of the DHB is that no matter what status the Dixie Cup is given; it will be a world-class event full of fun, friendship, good times, stoke and vibe so thick you can taste it and a hell of a lot of kick ass racing.


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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:41 pm

Brent,

Best first post ever (try to add your last name to your ID, helps cut down the trolls).

While I wholeheartedly aggree with your sentiments, the NC race should also get what it deserves, and like it or not, points generates interest for some folks.

So in your goal to get people to come out and skate with the DHB, wouldn't it be cool to have racers from Europe and South America join us. Corky's points system is not perfect, but input and open discussion can improve it. Corky welcomes that. This is how we'll fix reassigning points for canceled or rained out races.

At some point though it is up to the US skaters to decide what status goes to what race. You have a lot of new friends that will speak up for your race. Let's push to get your race the respect it deserves all the way around. Marion's desire to learn the system and work within it should prove the most efficacious.

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and yet still more.....

Post by Brent Griffith » Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:28 pm

Joe,
I agree with what you say and I just want to make myself a little clearer on where the DHB stand. The DHB will gladly accept any status that is given to us, be it a basic, a prime, The Worlds or even The Joe Iacovelli Masters of the Universe Slalom Challange. It dos not matter to us, because at the end of the day when it is all said and done all the DHB wants to do is put on the best race in the world no matter what status we are at. It is all about skating here in Sk8sville N.C. and we are happy to have the support of all the riders that attened the 1st Annual Dixie Cup. If the higher powers see fit that the Dixie Cup becomes a points race and it draws riders from other countries then yes, you know that the DHB would welcome those skaters with open arms. What it all comes down to is that if it is for the good of the slalom and skating community then the DHB will be behind it. All I can say is that what ever status the Dixie Cup gets, be ready for one hell of a good time come next November.

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Re: and yet still more.....

Post by Marion Karr » Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:42 pm

Brent Griffith wrote:Joe,
I agree with what you say and I just want to make myself a little clearer on where the DHB stand. The DHB will gladly accept any status that is given to us, be it a basic, a prime, The Worlds or even The Joe Iacovelli Masters of the Universe Slalom Challange. It dos not matter to us, because at the end of the day when it is all said and done all the DHB wants to do is put on the best race in the world no matter what status we are at. It is all about skating here in Sk8sville N.C. and we are happy to have the support of all the riders that attened the 1st Annual Dixie Cup. If the higher powers see fit that the Dixie Cup becomes a points race and it draws riders from other countries then yes, you know that the DHB would welcome those skaters with open arms. What it all comes down to is that if it is for the good of the slalom and skating community then the DHB will be behind it. All I can say is that what ever status the Dixie Cup gets, be ready for one hell of a good time come next November.

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What he said......
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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:38 pm

Corky,

Please accept my bid for the Joe Iacovelli Masters of the Universe Slalom Challenge for a Main Status, Dec 4, 5, & 6 in 2006.

:-)

Joe "Skeletor" Iacovelli

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Post by Chris Favero » Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:15 pm

brent,right on.marion,cant wait for next year.joe,i beleive the term is "spokesmodel" so feel free to use it in the future.no one rocks a pair of "go to hell"pants like you.i am still working on my "sampler"status,you know,like the people that work at costco.cf
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:41 am

There is still a lot of time before statuses have to be decided for Dixie Cup and all the other events in 2006. And who knows what you people in the USA East region will decide in the end. The sooner the better but with time these things mature and tend to get solved without any problem.

I applaude your attidude towards your objectives with Dixie Cup. I'm only here to defend and explain the World Ranking System and the idea behind it. I have no power on how you select your statuses. But I can inform you that a Prime status (if 8 or more pros show up) is not a bad status for those thinking about WR points. Actually one of the changes before this season was to increase the points for both Basic and Prime statuses. And with that was also added the new lowest Plain status. Now the difference between Main and Prime events is actually less than before.

Even though it is still possible to do a high WR status and working for the roots this will probably be more difficult in the future. If the slalom scene continue to grow strong and more people will want to enter those WR high statuses there might be need to have cuts to enter. Discussions have already started for the Worlds in Brixlegg. Should everyone be able to enter a World Championship? And if not how do you decide who can and who can not. This might be a problem for events that starts to get more than 90-100 racers. What I wanted to say with this is that working for the roots and having high World Ranking status might be hard to combine in the future when those roots are not allowed to enter the event. It seems logical thuogh that the higher WR status the higher the level of the skaters running it. We are not there yet but we will when the slalom scene explodes in 2007. :-)

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Post by Marion Karr » Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:52 am

Thanks Corky.....dude, the slalom scene is going to explode in 2006.... The DHB are going to be the one with the stoke fuel and the match.....

Our status will be determined by the stoke of the riders who attend.

Dixie Cup, smaller than a Prime bigger than the Worlds..

Marion Stoked To the Freakin Max Karr
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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:21 am

Marion wrote:Dixie Cup, smaller than a Prime bigger than the Worlds.
For 2006 I think neither of it will be true but it has a nice catch to it. ;-)

Marty Schaub
Old LaCosta Boy
Old LaCosta Boy
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:43 pm
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No Doubt

Post by Marty Schaub » Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:32 pm

Corky,

NEVER doubt Marion's tenacity and org skills. You should make plans to jump across the pond and come next year. Then you'll see what all the hollerin's about.....
La Costa Boy For Life

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