ISSA - International Slalom Skateboarding Association

I saw that Sk8kings is now offering Airflow trucks. I've heard of them, but haven't heard any reviews, good, bad, or otherwise, about these trucks. I'm curious. What're people saying?

In 2002 Turner Downhill introduced the TTC: Turner Traction Control truck. When Howard got out of the business and sold his inventory to Dan Gesmer, the TTCs went along. Dan, however, had a vested interest in another truck (ahem,) so the TTC withered on the vine.

Almost immediately two "clones" came on the market to capture what the TTC accomplished: Split Fire and AirFlow.

If you like the SplitFire rear or the TTC, you'll like the AirFlow. If you like the AirFlow, you'd like a Split . . . etc.

Of course there are differences. Probably a degree of angle here, a millimeter of width there and so on. But in the end the AirFlow is pretty much a TTC derivative: a heavy milled hangar centered on the King Pin with precision axles.

Yeah, what Wesley said, and with Splitfire unavailable at present, I'm sure Sk8kings was looking for an alternative rear truck to offer.

From what I've seen the Airflow is most like the Splitfire R1 - the tracker based baseplate model. Also, as noted several times on forums - unless they have changed this, the Airflow uses metric threads and nuts, so the axle locknuts are unique and not interchangeable.

RonO

the Airflow followed the TTC and solved some of its problems, such as too much material, lack of bushing seats and bad pivot.

The Splitfire R1 was almost an exact copy of the Airflow, with better axle material and a slightly better pivot.

I don't know if Airflow has improved their axle material or pivot to compete with Splitfire. I do have an Airflow that is about 3 years old that I still use all the time. It's an excellent truck. If you need a back truck, I highly recommend it.

Airflow vs. Splitfire... the only thing i can say is that gary fluitt bought 10 Airflow OS trucks about in 2004. then we didn't here anything from him ever again. half a year later he released his own truck which basically looks like an airflow.

Martin wrote "Airflow vs. Splitfire... the only thing i can say is that gary fluitt bought 10 Airflow OS trucks about in 2004. then we didn't here anything from him ever again. half a year later he released his own truck which basically looks like an airflow."

Looks can be decieving...the pivot on the splits was lightyears ahead of the TTC and Airflows socket head screw, and the axle material in the Airfow was weaker than Randall, and Splitfire used uber expensive, far superior axle stock, and made everything compatable with mainstream US truck parts...no more worrying if the nut you were going to put on an axle would be the right one or not...

other than that I guess you can say all you want

Well, do you really hate the metric system so much?

rmn

It's not hate. It's a question of standardization.

Last year Marty Schaub picked up some new kingpins he found at a hardware store. We joked about it later because at the same time he was getting the bolts I was typing online how standard hardware is like 20 TPI compared to our standard 24 TPI for bolts. None of Marty's lock nuts would fit his new king pins.

Now comes along axles with metric treading. That means for all the trucks I have now I have some lock nuts but for some other truck I have other lock nuts. We'll let the fact that metric nuts use different sockets slide for right now because regular sockets will work if not yanked too hard (nothing is harder fix than rounding off the six sides of a nylon lock nut.)

Should the standard be whatever the standard is in America (I think it's 24 TPI) or should it be whatever the metric standard is (10 per cm? I don't really know.) I don't know. I just know I'd really like it if all my trucks used the standards for all the applications requiring a tool.

Can you imagine the melee' ensuing if some wheel started shipping requiring something other than a 608 bearing? It might be the world's greatest wheel ever imagined but to use it means changing everything. Would it be tolerated?

Sorry to thread hi-jack but im getting a Airflow 95mm for TS/HS, could I space it all the way out for GS? What does it space out to?

casey: no you should not space it out!

for the whole standard talking: it's a swiss hanger so we produce metric threads. btw i'm using a tracker tool to change my wheels, the metric nuts fit. can't you buy metric nuts in america? 70mm wheels, 95mm trucks, 8mm axles. inchy nuts? nope - one day someone might come up with a wheeldesign that maybe has bigger bearings. why not? stop innovations because they don't fit into standards? magun trucks do have a different hole pattern. we don't care about standard drilled boards. if you want the trucks you'll have to redrill your board or have a board made that fits. that's how it goes in my eyes.

SI base units

Name Symbol Quantity
metre m Length
kilogram kg Mass
second s Time
ampere A Electrical Current
kelvin K Thermodynamic temperature
mole mol Amount of substance
candela cd Luminous intensity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_Unit

rmn

For whatever reason, in general, certain standards do exist in the world of skateboarding .
Boards are measured in inches, wheels in mm's, duro's using the shore A scale, etc. It grew up a mixed standard and it really hasn't been a problem. I hate it when a company gives board specs in cms because i can't make the instant mental comparison to all the other boards i have.

Axel nuts are such a trivial thing, its no innovation to use a metric one, just an inconvenience. I have an Airflow rear, the only thing i didn't like about it was the nut, and i live in Europe. Sure my skate tool fits, but not the same as on a standard S.A.E. nut.

Its no big deal, for reasons of convenience or pride you chose to use a non-standard metric axle nut. As a manufacturer its at your discretion, i respect that.

I don't think that means its OK to slag off everyone who has your truck a thinks for good reason, 'why doesn't my wrench fit right?' or 'i lost a nut and none of my spares fit'.

I think you know we are going to have this natural reaction, we just expect you to have a little humility toward us regarding this.

sorry if it sounded a bit harsh. you're right!

but why are wheel sizes in mm?

nothing against Metric, hell, 50% of the machines that I work on have metric nuts/bolts/bearings/shafts etc

Its just so much simpler for US riders to get SAE hardware at local skateshops or hardware store, thats all, no performance difference

Jim Weatherwax wrote: Its just so much simpler for US riders to get SAE hardware at local skateshops or hardware store, thats all, no performance difference

Good point. I love going to Lowe's when I need to work on my board. It's pretty cheap and I feel like a macho man. LOL Any hope of some airflow mods that have US standard sizes?

It looks like this turned out to be a pretty lively discussion.

Yeah Wax, that sounds pretty reasonable. Would it be more confortable if the trucks came along with 2 spare nuts already? (rhetoric question)

rmn

Martin Siegrist wrote:sorry if it sounded a bit harsh. you're right!

but why are wheel sizes in mm?

Maybe because people hate fractions and decimals even more than the metric system?

Martin Siegrist wrote:sorry if it sounded a bit harsh. you're right!

but why are wheel sizes in mm?

Wheels were measured in metric about the same time as "608" bearing were installed in 1975. Before we had "big 2 and half inch Stobies," "little 2 inch DaKines." Then with Kryptonics we started getting "C-65s" and "C-62s" and everything's been metric since.

I've always thought it was because the wheel makers didn't want to mix and match measurements. Wheels measured in inches and cores measured in millimeters didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Of course we never did figure out why the entire industry went with 8 mm bearing discs and stuck with 5/16" axles. Even today it's considered a "modification" or "special feature" to get a treaded rod matching the bearings.

Ramon wrote "Yeah Wax, that sounds pretty reasonable. Would it be more confortable if the trucks came along with 2 spare nuts already? (rhetoric question)

rmn"

Main problem for most still is if their front truck is standard, and the back is metric problems can occour if not being cautious during wheel swaps (ie: too many smoke breaks!). I am in nut and bolt suppliers every day, so getting spares for anything isnt a problem for me

It would truly be simplistic if the standard was metric all around! Fact is ..it aint! I remember the rumors of the U.S.A going metric in the 70's..it fizzled. I own 4" Roadriders and 4"Parkriders as well as 4"U.F.Os . The "standard mounting holes are S.A.E. the bearings are 608 "metric" the spacers are 10mm(unless you convert to the 3rd decimal S.A.E )Wheelbase is in inches, as well as deck length speeds are mostly recorded in M.P.H ...I Land survey, and measure in poles, rods and links(converted to ..tenths of feet) But the only true standard is ....time! 24 hours, 60 minutes and 60 seconds.
They problem still lies in the availability and ease of acquiring metric hardware of good qaulity..That being said, Grade (8) king pins are another standard.

Jim Weatherwax wrote: Main problem for most still is if their front truck is standard, and the back is metric problems can occour if not being cautious during wheel swaps (ie: too many smoke breaks!). ...

Agreed.

Maybe a bit off topic....
Many years ago I heard a guy on the radio discussing the US trying to adapt to metric.

His point was that we in the US were much too concerned with converting metric to SAE and vice versa. Who cares how many litres makes a gallon. A litre is a litre! Get used to it!

I think that if the US had taken this approach back in the '70's we'd have been using the metric standard for a long time and could have avoided the silly confusion.

Dave Gale wrote:I own 4" Roadriders and 4"Parkriders as well as 4"U.F.Os .

Dan Mitchell wrote:we in the US were much too concerned with converting metric to SAE and vice versa. Who cares how many litres makes a gallon. A litre is a litre! Get used to it!

I wanna know how BIG those FOUR INCH ROAD RIDERS are in metric!

Wesley Tucker wrote:

Dave Gale wrote:I own 4" Roadriders and 4"Parkriders as well as 4"U.F.Os .

Dan Mitchell wrote:we in the US were much too concerned with converting metric to SAE and vice versa. Who cares how many litres makes a gallon. A litre is a litre! Get used to it!

I wanna know how BIG those FOUR INCH ROAD RIDERS are in metric!

They'd be 10.16cm, that's as big as the biggest of ABEC11's Flywheels.
(Btw. Macintosh's Dashboard's got a nice converting gadget)

rmn

PS: Seems like this has become a pretty interesting off-topic discussion.

Wesley, Dan's math is correct. Abec 101's are 4". I spoke with Chris years ago after I broke his code os 11 ie: used to be all of his wheels mm measurements added up to 11...65mm 74mm 83mm 92mm and 101mm ...The downhill rules stated that 4" was the maximum allowed size for wheels in sanctioned races. Chris made the wheels 101 to max out the scale, he luckily also created another math equation equaling 11 .

Dave Gale wrote:Wesley, Dan's math is correct. Abec 101's are 4". I spoke with Chris years ago after I broke his code os 11 ie: used to be all of his wheels mm measurements added up to 11...65mm 74mm 83mm 92mm and 101mm ...The downhill rules stated that 4" was the maximum allowed size for wheels in sanctioned races. Chris made the wheels 101 to max out the scale, he luckily also created another math equation equaling 11 .

Uhhhhh,

What's that got to do with FOUR INCH road riders, park riders and UFOs? (which I believer were 2.25")

I'm hassling you, Poindexter. Don't change the subject.

I guess the answer is "how big are Crail and Force? Are they more able to absorb the cost of making and marketing two seperate versions of the same truck?"

One of the big drawbacks to being a slalom manufacturer today is the market is so small. Hell, there's only 1000 of us max. If all the manufacturers in the world get all the slalomers to buy one of their products, that's a total of a 1000 units.

The cost of just one special run of a differently threaded axle or king bolt might be prohibitive. It's easy to say, "just make two versions," but if it drives up the per unit cost of already very expensive component then it's probably not a good idea.

Stupid suggestion here from me but why not just keep to the standard that is adopted worldwide?

Cheers

Adrian from metric Oz

Adrian Alderson wrote:Stupid suggestion here from me but why not just keep to the standard that is adopted worldwide?

Cheers

Adrian from metric Oz

Cause we don't want to.

I say stick to what's been working for quite a few years now.
Ok, if truck companies would send me a metric skatetool with the metric trucks, I'd be happy, but they don't, so I have to get regular tools for them. Now, this is not a problem in metric Sweden, but I bet it's as difficult is the US, as it is for me to get SAE tools here.

You can always do as Kahalani though. SAE kingpin and metric wheel nuts/threads. Try to find a skatetool that does that trick!

Adrian Alderson wrote:Stupid suggestion here from me but why not just keep to the standard that is adopted worldwide?

Cheers

Adrian from metric Oz

Ditto.


rmn

Toby Warg wrote:I say stick to what's been working for quite a few years now.
Ok, if truck companies would send me a metric skatetool with the metric trucks, I'd be happy, but they don't, so I have to get regular tools for them. Now, this is not a problem in metric Sweden, but I bet it's as difficult is the US, as it is for me to get SAE tools here.

You can always do as Kahalani though. SAE kingpin and metric wheel nuts/threads. Try to find a skatetool that does that trick!

Your skate tool will fit both.

1 day when you guys finally go metric you will wonder why it took you soooo long.
You are so far behind ,still making gas guzzling push rod engines even!
Move into this century.

ok ok , thats a bit harsh...sorry

Here's a random but relevant question. How wide-spread are Trackers, Indies, Radikal, Randall, Bennett (or any number of other) trucks that have SAE specs outside of the U.S.? And do you guys outside the U.S. have the trouble with them that evidently U.S. skaters have with Airflow?

By the way, I came to work today in my Japanese gas sipping car. We're not all driving '57 Chevys with baby seal skin seat covers, you know.

Lenny Poage wrote:Here's a random but relevant question. How wide-spread are Trackers, Indies, Radikal, Randall, Bennett (or any number of other) trucks that have SAE specs outside of the U.S.? And do you guys outside the U.S. have the trouble with them that evidently U.S. skaters have with Airflow?

By the way, I came to work today in my Japanese gas sipping car. We're not all driving '57 Chevys with baby seal skin seat covers, you know.

No Lenny , but your still making them!
So are we though.......


I think most Ausies would have non metric tools around and most of our Marine stuff is still in the old fashioned sizes.
Personally I wish we (here in Aus) could just go full metric for everything.
its as easy as 1,2,3........literally.

Oh by the way.......re the Airflows , I like my set more than my Radikal rear. The Rad turns more and so the Airflow feels a little less whippy. I always feel like I'm about to loose the back end on the Rad. I de wedge it to take some of the turn out..............But I am far from an expert. I just like riding nice equipment and know what feels good under my feet. They feel light years better than a very de wedged RTS.

Tim Robinson wrote:Your skate tool will fit both.

1 day when you guys finally go metric you will wonder why it took you soooo long.
You are so far behind ,still making gas guzzling push rod engines even!
Move into this century.

ok ok , thats a bit harsh...sorry

My skate tool does not fit both. I know, because I tried it.

Sorry to say it, but Sweden has been metric for a long time. And what about Holden? Get your facts straight.

Lenny Poage wrote:Here's a random but relevant question. How wide-spread are Trackers, Indies, Radikal, Randall, Bennett (or any number of other) trucks that have SAE specs outside of the U.S.? And do you guys outside the U.S. have the trouble with them that evidently U.S. skaters have with Airflow?

We have troubles insofar as the bearing sit is not as precise as it could be. So sometimes you cannot fully tighten the nut, and even if you fully tighten the nut there's still some play. (metric bearing vs. SAE axle)

Since you allegedly have the same bearings as we have, do there exist bearings with SAE specs at all?

rmn

Ramón Königshausen wrote:do there exist bearings with SAE specs at all?

I've seen bearings made to fit on a 5/16" axle/shaft. They also had the same outer diameter as a 608 bearing, but they were "thicker" than a 608 bearing and thus part of the bearing would've extended, unsupported, beyond the wheel core. The only way they'd really work would be in a wheel with an extended bearing seat. I seem to recall some old '80s park wheels that were like that. It seemed to take half an hour to get bearings in and out of them! All in all, too much hassle, IMO.

I've had an Airflow truck for a few years and, strangely, have never lost a nut.

I wonder if it would be worthwhile for Airflow to produce a 5/16"x24 thread option. It would really only be those little axle bits that would be different.

BTW, my skate tool works on my Airflow's metric nuts, sort of. It's an odd tight fit, but it does work.

Well, without having checked on their availabilty in Europe, I guess we would have to import those threads or produce them on custom request, which would only increase the price of the truck. - Is it worth paying more just for that it is not metric?

The tool issue: I'm using the Tracker skatetool on all of my trucks with metric nuts (Maguns and G.O.G. as well) - trouble-free.

rmn

Steve Collins wrote:BTW, my skate tool works on my Airflow's metric nuts, sort of. It's an odd tight fit, but it does work.

Well, actually my Fixstix works, but not my Alpha Microtool, which is made with more precision.
Interesting though that the truck is all SAE and the wheels/bearings all metric.

Toby Warg wrote:

Tim Robinson wrote:Your skate tool will fit both.

1 day when you guys finally go metric you will wonder why it took you soooo long.
You are so far behind ,still making gas guzzling push rod engines even!
Move into this century.

ok ok , thats a bit harsh...sorry

My skate tool does not fit both. I know, because I tried it.

Sorry to say it, but Sweden has been metric for a long time. And what about Holden? Get your facts straight.

Toby if you read my post I said we also still make them.
I have no idea if they are metric though as I haven't been near a Holden with a spanner since about 1978. I think it is Toyota who are number 1 in Australia.
I know they have 19mm wheel nuts as they fit on my Alfa

Hey Tim,
Got anything front truck wise that you want to part with?

Greg
BTS

No mate , do you?? I'm looking for 1 RTX 129mm. I thought there may be a few sets of Radikals going up for sale , and there are but at almost full price. I think the Fyre trucks will be the go or Geezers Sputnik if he ever builds it. I was looking at my Airflow and thinking if only somewon would make a front hanger along those lines. That way we can still pump around town on them without fear of breaking a king pin. The Geezer Bennett looks nice for a slalom front. The Fyre should be at a more afordable price and with many baseplate options will be easy to tune to your preferences. How do you like your Rads?

Tim,

what about a Splitfire Front?

Cheers

Adrian

Thought about that but not made any more.
I'm setting up a 36inch Ick Stick. Probably with Cortech 77mm or Avilas.

Tim Robinson wrote: Toby if you read my post I said we also still make them.
I have no idea if they are metric though as I haven't been near a Holden with a spanner since about 1978. I think it is Toyota who are number 1 in Australia.
I know they have 19mm wheel nuts as they fit on my Alfa

I still think it's funny that you think that Sweden is a part of the USA..

Toby Warg wrote:

Tim Robinson wrote: Toby if you read my post I said we also still make them.
I have no idea if they are metric though as I haven't been near a Holden with a spanner since about 1978. I think it is Toyota who are number 1 in Australia.
I know they have 19mm wheel nuts as they fit on my Alfa

I still think it's funny that you think that Sweden is a part of the USA..

Toby , I was only having a go at the Yanks. I'm on your side.

Tim,

how many you want? With or without hanger bearing?

Cheers mate

Adrian

PS. still need that 129 RTX?

Yeh the thought has crossed my mind a few times Adrian, dont you worry. But a Splitfire on the front? Ive heard plenty a good rave with them as a back truck. Just how do the perform as a front?