Wheel size limit

[Hans Lucas]

Regarding a maximum wheel size for slalom: I'm surprised that no one has made the (to me) common-sense argument of "natural selection," i.e., that the type of course itself will almost always dictate what type of wheel to use.
Tight slalom? Who in his or her right mind would use a 92mm Flywheel?

(I admit, a bit late:)
Yesterday I tamed a "TS" course of 2,20m on someones' longboard with 90mm Flywheels, so it can be done with that size. Right now I wonder how those wheels would look under my red/green Sims/Turner, see below ...
Maybe I'll try out the 83mm Flywheels on that board. (Dutch "TS" slalom training tracks are usually 2.20m - 2.50m, with longboarders participating)

[Pat Chewning]

The board of directors of the ISSA has a decision on 6-wheel skateboards and other controversial equipment. See the decision here:

viewtopic.php?t=3715

[Etienne de Bary]

We'd have to introduce that. It might be no problem here in Switzerland. Just some rules about steepness, offset, goofy/regular course and so on had to be fixed...

a few cones, i would add, maybe...

[Tim Bekmaz]

What about the minimum size of a wheel?







rmn

hahahahahaha puts a meaning to the term coned wheels??

[Ramón Königshausen]

We'd have to introduce that. It might be no problem here in Switzerland. Just some rules about steepness, offset, goofy/regular course and so on had to be fixed...

rmn

[Justin Pannulla]

Slide slalom......
That sounds like a crazy, (in a good way) idea!
I would love to see that!

[Ramón Königshausen]

hm....I have plenty of wheels...that's not a problem any more.

rmn

[Jonathan Harms]

Come on, Ramón, don't be coy. If you want a new set of wheels, just say so!

[Ramón Königshausen]

rmn

[Ramón Königshausen]

standup slides on steep rough roads

let's invent a new slalom discipline: Drift/Standupslide Slalom

rmn

[alavoine jean paul]

What the **** have you done to your wheels???

[Pierre-Yves Ritschard]

I don't see the need for equipment rules in slalom.
The organizers should have a banning right though to disallow extreme equipment like corky suggested.

[Ramón Königshausen]

rmn

[Mike Maysey]

I'm not sure about the spacing for 5-6 cones a second, but I run 69mm wheels on 5' offsets no problem. It's a matter of truck tension. Wheel size should be unregulated. That thing with the air filled tires on it isn't a skateboard. To me, the only limitation we should have is a skateboard and perhaps with that the definition of a skateboard should be spelled out. ie) a board of whatever material, two trucks or whatever configuration and four urethane or a like substance wheels. Bearings optional! hehehe

[alavoine jean paul]

You want to restrict people from using worn out freestyle wheels? If so, why?

I don't want to impose any new rule, but if we were to use those kinds of wheels, slalom contests would last at least a week... that is with only one event...

[Wes Eastridge]

Let the courses determine the optimal size wheels.

And we should also avoid the other extreme which would be to use worn out freestyle wheels.

You want to restrict people from using worn out freestyle wheels? If so, why?

[alavoine jean paul]

Let the courses determine the optimal size wheels.

And we should also avoid the other extreme which would be to use worn out freestyle wheels. Corky will know what I'm talking about.

P.S.: I know we French sometimes have surprising rules, like the spelling of MANOEUVRABILITY which the English stole (and adapted) from us.
Thanks Jani for the new site which I find much clearer than the old one. How about adding a picture of José to your photo gallery?

[Vlad Popov]

Let the courses determine the optimal size wheels.

Almost no one rides Cambrias anymore even though they are significantly faster then Avalons on 5-to-6-cones-per-second courses. No one sets courses like that, so the wheels are not needed. If 100-200mm wheels win "slalom" races it's not the wheels fault.

[Dave Gale]

I thought "size doesn't matter" Gonna have a talk w/ the wife!!
I agree that the course should dictate the racer's choice! Once you limit heght, soon to follow will be width, or modifying of such. Racing is the birthplace of most performance related products. If a manu. produces it, I say let it ride. I've got a few 4" sets of R.R P.R UFO and they are very fast on a Looong straightish hil. But they wouldn't hold their own against modern slalom oriented wheels! Don't make it too regulated, or it will be a Compound/Durometer/weight/ heifght /bearing size/water displacement etc... issue!! And they're off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rich Stephens]

And I would say that if someone does set a course like that, it's really not a slalom course at all any more, it's a downhill course.

Was that a "downhill" course that Jack Smith won earlier this year with 92mm flywheels on the front (and avilas or something on the back)?

[Jonathan Harms]

Oops.
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=Z ... XXXXXX42US' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_5.gif' border=0></a>

Corky wrote:
Another way to work against extremes is the way we set up our slalom courses. If a fast and non-tech Super-G course would give a huge advantage by running a downhill board, then don't set it up like that.

I think we are saying the same thing in slightly different ways. Even if the course does NOT have a slower or uphill section, as did this year's Morro Bay Super G, there are still VERY few, if any, "slalom" courses on which a really large wheel (bigger than, say, 76mm) offers any advantage. Unless it's a very steep hill with plenty of time to get up to maximum speed, and without many hard turns, a bigger wheel won't offer any advantage, and will in fact be slower. And I would say that if someone does set a course like that, it's really not a slalom course at all any more, it's a downhill course.

[Hans Koraeus]

Regarding a maximum wheel size for slalom: I'm surprised that no one has made the (to me) common-sense argument of "natural selection," i.e., that the type of course itself will almost always dictate what type of wheel to use.

You missed my post...

Another way to work against extremes is the way we set up our slalom courses. If a fast and non-tech Super-G course would give a huge advantage by running a downhill board, then don't set it up like that. I liked the way it was done in Morro Bay with a upper part that was quite flat and needed some good old pumping. If you have a balance in the course between speed, pump and techniqual finess it will not give advantage for any special extreme and by that balance the equipment choice that people will use.

And let's just give the organizers the trust to be able to judge what is a "legal skateboard" or not. Let them have the power to disqualify any funny skateboard extremes they find does not fit the common sense standards.

[Jonathan Harms]

Regarding a maximum wheel size for slalom: I'm surprised that no one has made the (to me) common-sense argument of "natural selection," i.e., that the type of course itself will almost always dictate what type of wheel to use.

Tight slalom? Who in his or her right mind would use a 92mm Flywheel? Hybrid? Same thing. GS? Even on a steep, fast course like La Costa, or this year's Morro Bay Super G, I don't think anyone was running anything bigger than 76mm Gumballs (at La Costa) or POSSIBLY 83mm Flywheels (at Morro). You know that plenty of those people owned wheels bigger than that. Why didn't they use them? Simple--they just wouldn't have worked as well! Hell, even at this year's Vail *downhill* race, Aki won the whole thing on 74mm Flywheels, beating plenty of people who were riding bigger wheels than that. Huge wheels alone don't offer any advantage in virtually any type of course that could reasonably be called "slalom."

So my opinion is this: Let people ride whatever the hell they want, and let the course (and the times) decide what works and what doesn't. As physicist Richard Feynman once wrote, "Nature cannot be fooled."

[Ramón Königshausen]

More or less....These wheels were not only used for slaloming...

I'll keep them in my collection

rmn

[HUYNH BACH SAC Frédéric]

In St germain's giant slalom contest ( Rennes / France ) a rider with a G&S fiberflex pintail won the race... ( Avila + Randall II 180 set up... )

???
False
Fred..don't you remenber?? I won this race with my Turner GS Hybrid!!!
But there were a lot of longboards and nobody want to ban longboards that are just long skateboard!

Oups !!!! what place did Koltkud ?!

ps : rmn, is it the way that you mean by intensive training ?

[Jani Soderhall]

Ramón,

Those wheels are for the collection! Don't ever throw those away. They may take on value if you continue your progression like we've seen so far.


We should start a thread with heavily used equipment. That would be pretty cool.

/Jani

[Ramón Königshausen]

What about the minimum size of a wheel?







rmn

[Vincent Berruchon]

In St germain's giant slalom contest ( Rennes / France ) a rider with a G&S fiberflex pintail won the race... ( Avila + Randall II 180 set up... )

???
False
Fred..don't you remenber?? I won this race with my Turner GS Hybrid!!!
But there were a lot of longboards and nobody want to ban longboards that are just long skateboard!

[Vincent Berruchon]

Vincent, I don't think that anybody who wants to win a competition rides boards like that...stay on the ground...
Daniel said it already...

rmn

Are you sure that everybody participate to win?
If a guy want to take part to a Formula one race (or Indy 500 speed cars race) with a big truck and tow full sticked with ads, do you think he should be allowed to?

Last month a guy were boring us because he want to take place in the Paris Slalom World Cup with a board that is a kind of hybrid between a skateboard and a snakeboard, he never see or try slalom skate before but just keep sayin' that the organization staff has to let him race with skateboards...
he probably just wanna show his strange stuff to the world
the demo time is wide open to him and to any strange vehicule (last year you could see skullboard, dirtsurf, snakeboard, streetluge, speedel star...)
but the races are not the place to demo strange machines.

But I agree that the rules have to be the as open as possible to every kind of skateboards, but just skateboards...(that don't disturb too much organization of an event, like a 12ft long-4ft wide sk8)

[HUYNH BACH SAC Frédéric]

In St germain's giant slalom contest ( Rennes / France ) a rider with a G&S fiberflex pintail won the race... ( Avila + Randall II 180 set up... )

[Ramón Königshausen]

Vincent, I don't think that anybody who wants to win a competition rides boards like that...stay on the ground...
Daniel said it already...


rmn[/quote]

[Daniel Poweleit]

Vincent,

whats the problem with this board? Everybody can see that this is a skateboard.

Are you afraid of that someone could go faster through the cones with that monster than you?

I can't imagine.

If someone wants to try it, let him. After a few runs he will choose another board. For sure!

But if there will come a development which will help us all in accelerating the speed but it has 101 mm wheels you will forbid it? Why?

I think we have to describe a skateboard at its lowest level. And thats it. Excactly like Jack Quarantillo already has done.

And if it is a skateboard than let him try to go through the cones.........

[Hans Koraeus]

If no rules, you would have to allow this thing too!! And these wheels are available everywhere!

That thing would not even make the start ramp. And I doubt this "skateboard" is available everywhere. And don't forget "for a reasonable prize".

Maybe one way to go to avoid hundreds of ridiculous equipment rules is to give the competition organizer the right to forbid "extreme equipment". If in doubt you should take it up with organizer (or ISSA?) well before the race.

[Vincent Berruchon]

Go away with those rules! In my opinion rules like this are not really necessary...
Does/should that make any sence? If yes, which?

rmn

Are you sure you wanna see this in a race:
<a href="http://www.worldsbiggestskateboard.com/">
http://www.worldsbiggestskateboard.com/
</a>
If no rules, you would have to allow this thing too!! And these wheels are available everywhere!

In my opinion 100 or 101mm diameter wheels are the good maximum size for slalom

[Jani Soderhall]

If you were going to limit wheel size, it should be 4" (101.6mm) diameter, which incidentally is the same size restriction that the downhill organizations have.

Thank's Nick. That was my proposal. 100mm seemed plenty enough for this sport as we know it today.

[Jack Quarantillo]

Jani,
I overdid it on purpose. That was an illustration (attempting) to show the sillyness of over-regulating things. (sorry you missed the joke, I should have thrown in a few )

My suggestion:
1. Skateboard - no joints or hinges (to prevent snakeboards)
2. 2 axles only (split axle is ok)
3. 4 wheels only
4. No mechanical propulsion or braking devices allowed.

Everything else should be self-regulating. You said in your post "Leave it at that (130mm) or limit it to 100mm which would be more than most people would find suitable."

Why bother with a rule if it is not necessary?

Q

[Jani Soderhall]

Your proposed limit (75mm) would outlaw the following:
Gumballs 76mm
Strikers 77mm
Flywheels 76, 83, 90, 97

Jack,

I told them I have not seen anyone using wheels larger than 75 mm (or at least so I thought - I was not so aware of the above wheels, rarely used I assume in slalom events). It doesn't mean I want to set the limit at 75 mm. The limit in (French) downhill racing seems to be 130 mm. For slalom I proposed they leave it at that or limit it to 100 mm which would be more than most people would find suitable.

Minimum/Maximum wheel width?
Minimum/Maximum truck width?
Minimum/Maximum board dimensions?
Minimum/Maximum hub diameter?
Minimum/Maximum urethane durometer?
Minimum/Maximum bearing count/size?
Approved board materials?
Minimum/Maximum truck geometry?

OK, let's not overdo it. I have already proposed they remove the max truck width, max board length, max bearing size. For me all of the above doesn't matter as long as we're still within skateboarding. However, if you remove every hardware rule, what makes a snakeboard differ from a skateboard? And what about the number of wheels? Would you accept 2 wheel boards? What about a board separated into two? Somewhere there has to be a limit or we can just as well invite bicycles to participate in our races too.

OK, let's all calm down and help them set an appropriate limit for their national rules.

/Jani

[Hans Koraeus]

Another way to work against extremes is the way we set up our slalom courses. If a fast and non-tech Super-G course would give a huge advantage by running a downhill board, then don't set it up like that. I liked the way it was done in Morro Bay with a upper part that was quite flat and needed some good old pumping. If you have a balance in the course between speed, pump and techniqual finess it will not give advantage for any special extreme and by that balance the equipment choice that people will use.

[Ramón Königshausen]

Go away with those rules! In my opinion rules like this are not really necessary...
Does/should that make any sence? If yes, which?

rmn

[Hans Koraeus]

Jack, please don't give any more ideas to the French. I think they have missed out on a couple in your list.

Equipment rules should be kept to a minimum, I agree. But maybe sometimes they are needed. Are wheel size such a rule? Maybe. In a fast non-technical Super-G wheel size may decide who wins or not. But then again if the wheels are possible to buy in the shops for anyone (for a reasonable prize) why not allow it. If someone is contructing extreme wheels only for personal advantages I don't think it should be allowed. That could work for any equipment by the way. But how do you write such rules? Luckily slalom are not that extremly equipment dependent yet. (Luca comes in mind.) Let's hope it stays that way so we don't need all these rules. And let's hope all slalomers thinking of getting that extra edge over the others bear this in mind as well.

[Nick Krest]

If you were going to limit wheel size, it should be 4" (101.6mm) diameter, which incidentally is the same size restriction that the downhill organizations have.

Jack Smith won a race using 92mm wheels earlier this year, so don't discount larger sizes.

[Jack Quarantillo]

a) Should there be a maximum wheel diameter?
No
b) What should the maximum wheel diameter be?
see a

Your proposed limit (75mm) would outlaw the following:
Gumballs 76mm
Strikers 77mm
Flywheels 76, 83, 90, 97

In my opinion, there should be very little rules along these lines. Simple is good. Otherwise you open up all sorts of problems (and you limit progress in design experimentation.) Plus there would be too much time wasted on measuring and protesting.

Minimum/Maximum wheel width?
Minimum/Maximum truck width?
Minimum/Maximum board dimensions?
Minimum/Maximum hub diameter?
Minimum/Maximum urethane durometer?
Minimum/Maximum bearing count/size?
Approved board materials?
Minimum/Maximum truck geometry?

Q

[Wes Eastridge]

Should there be a maximum wheel diameter?
No there should not. Why even consider this kind of regulation?

We don’t currently have regulations on manually operated skateboards that have no more than 4 wheels and there is no reason to change that.

I would hate to see/hear-of someone having traveled to France, only to find out that they were not allowed to participate due to some arbitrary rule regulating the size of a skateboard component.

Why is someone trying to make exclusive slalom rules for France?

[Jani Soderhall]

For the first version of the national French slalom rules they asked me questions about the wheel diameter and I thought it would be interested to hear your opinion on the matter:

a) Should there be a maximum wheel diameter?
Do we need any limit at all?
I answered Yes, as I think that a board with wheels too large is maybe no longer a skateboard. Maybe then it's a different engine.

b) What should the maximum wheel diameter be?
I answered that I have not seen anyone use anything larger than 75 mm today but maybe the only reason is that those are the largest wheels commercially available and suitable for slalom. I assume that for a loosely set giant or a Super G even larger wheels would be an advantage. In the tighter courses you loose out on manouvrability (spelling?) but if the course is easy a larger wheel would logically give you a higher speed.

Suggestions?

/Jani