2008 ISSA Rules update -- Section 9 (Technical Specs)

general rules, special-tight-giant rules

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:22 pm

agreed with peter

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Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:54 pm

Peter Klang wrote: I also think any course in main/major status events should be set by a top 25 ranked racer. Now that I’m sure will cause me problems…

Your humblest
PK
This is based on the assumption that the best racers are the best course-setters. I'm not sure that is always true. And should we really be burdening our top-ranked racers with the task of setting the course?

I can't remember the last time I saw a top football player mowing the grass before the game.......

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Game, set....match!

Post by Martin Drayton » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:24 pm

On a few occasions I have been to a race where the course was not representative of where 'racing' was at, at the time ie. set too wide for a true TS, too across the hill for a GS thus robbing the run of real speed etc.
On each of these occasions the course setter has been an 'ex-racer' who has not been competitive with the generation of racers competing that day.
As Peter says, you want an idea of what to expect and therefore what to train. Do you want a professional performance from the competitiors on the day? Or do you want skewed results that give too big of an advantage to the less technically skilled?
Pat Chewning wrote:
Peter Klang wrote: I also think any course in main/major status events should be set by a top 25 ranked racer. Now that I’m sure will cause me problems…

Your humblest
PK
I can't remember the last time I saw a top football player mowing the grass before the game.......
But I bet his agent checked it first though... ;)

Looking further ahead equipment manufacturers need to know where things are at as well to give us contemporary products.There would be no point having trucks that can turn as tight as GOGs and Rads if the people setting at events are setting wide TS courses for example...why design boards with an 18" wheelbase?

Pat Chewning wrote:This is based on the assumption that the best racers are the best course-setters. I'm not sure that is always true. And should we really be burdening our top-ranked racers with the task of setting the course?
No its not always true, but using 3 of them would work...one could set and the other two try it. And have you asked the top racers? Most would LOVE the chance/honour of setting the course!


I don't think its a case as Pat said of whether you are setting a "good" course or a "fair and unbiased" course, it should be a contemporary course. And who would know? A racer/racers in the top 25, who to be in that position, will have attended several recent events (with hopefully similar courses).

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Re: Game, set....match!

Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:51 pm

Pat Chewning wrote:This is based on the assumption that the best racers are the best course-setters. I'm not sure that is always true. And should we really be burdening our top-ranked racers with the task of setting the course?
Martin Drayton wrote:No its not always true, but using 3 of them would work...one could set and the other two try it. And have you asked the top racers? Most would LOVE the chance/honour of setting the course!
I can confirm that even though many racers are afraid when they know that I'm setting the TS - but I lerarned to make them rideable but still challenging ;-)

Paris this year was good I think. The Pro Special course was set by Baumann, CBark and me which worked pretty good I guess. But it kind of depends who and who is working together. And for Paris' Amateur Special: Ask the Amateur racers how they liked the course...Hannover was good too although set by an amateur (Frank Beste I assume).

Maybe we should have at least have some Pro rider giving guidance to the course setting or so...

Personally for TS it is absolutely important to be on a certain level for when you practice TS you are trying get close to the limit where you can't make the course anymore. And for that effort there shouldn't be just a loose TS on a big race.


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Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:08 pm

I'm going to disagree with all this.

Half the fun and motivation for putting on a skateboard slalom race is getting to set the course. If a promoter/organizer goes to the time, trouble and expense of putting on a race for everyone to attend then the promoter/organizer should have the option to set a course IF SO CHOOSING.

Dictating that someone must come in from out of town or someone not associated with promoting the event has the "right" to set the course is counter-productive. Many organizers will probably like to defer setting the course to someone else for many reason. Others, though, may want to set the course because that's the reason they were motivated to put on a race in the first place: having people come in from all over to ride the local hill with a local course. Dictating that in order to get a certain status means bringing in outside "expertise" can be a great deterrent to some promoters wanting to get sanctioning.
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:06 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote: If a promoter/organizer goes to the time, trouble and expense of putting on a race for everyone to attend then the promoter/organizer should have the option to set a course IF SO CHOOSING.
and IF BEING SKILLED to set a good course.

So would this come to option E)?

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What?

Post by Claude Regnier » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:33 pm

The whole point of this discussion is to make sure we provide support information for racers and race organizers. Wesley in case you are not aware there have been several races over the last few years that were run by non slalomers hoping to make some cash on the event.

In some case experienced people did some poor course setting. What we are trying to do is make sure there is criteria for all. Adding some notes for organizational responsibility is not asking too much.

If there are some real problems with the course setting then it should be cleared up. The racers and organizers should work together to make it better. A lot of time things are sucked not to hurt some ones feelings.

ISSA should be looking into all concerns seen by the racers and add them into the race rule guidelines. How about asking about opinions on some of the crappy courses set this past year? How about getting some public opinion on poor events hosted. Poor courses – safety issues as well. Race organizers not meeting posted/sanctioned information. No advanced notice to racers of changes in the program - $$$ going from 3,000 to 600 is a lot from a racers point of view.

Sure you can keep with the KISS theory and all but if people really want some good races, venues, sponsors, spectators and growth then people need to take a step back and put their minds to laying down a complete set of rules and guidelines (open to change for the next race season) once and for all.

Try thinking of ISSA as a community. Even if less then 10% of the community is involved in the process.
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Re: What?

Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:17 pm

Claude Regnier wrote:ISSA should be looking into all concerns seen by the racers and add them into the race rule guidelines. How about asking about opinions on some of the crappy courses set this past year? How about getting some public opinion on poor events hosted.
This is a good point. One of the items on my "to do" list is to create a survey of the 2007 races and ask the racers to comment on the good/bad things they experienced at each race. We can then use this information for the criteria we use for setting status of races in 2008. I think I'll be able to get to that around the end of November.....

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:23 pm

First: Sorry for my so frequent posting, I hope this is not messing up the discussion

Pat, I took some notes from a few events with good and not so good points about them and tryed to formulate some guidelines. Those guidlines ofter refer to things that didn't go well or could be solved better/easier. Yet I've got it only on paper in my handwriting but once I got time I'd like to show them to you...(oh gosh, how much are we all compiling here?)

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Post by Marion Karr » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:44 pm

Because I am still recovering from putting on the Worlds and in the midst of the final planning stages of the Dixie Cup (in two weeks) I have not followed this discussion or the rules discussion as intently but am going to go back after the Dixie Cup and read everything but here is something everyone needs to consider:

IF the ISSA rules require courses to be set by someone outside the particular race organization when do you plan on doing this? It has been my experience over the last three years of race promoting that setting courses on the morning of the event could lead to significant delays in getting the event completed or in the case of weather, timing equipment issues, or other unforseen delays, not finishing at all! Take the first Buckeye race for example...all courses were set on the day of the race...dual lane. Fortunately we had great weather and it was in June when the days were long but racing did not start to after 12 pm with racers milling about the hill waiting on the course to be set.

With the WORLDS this year there was NO way we could have done that. The days were getting shorter, we only had the road closure for a certain amount of hours, and yes, we had some timing equipment delays (which we easily took care of by having redundancy in our timing systems). Had we set courses the day of the event we would have most likely had to reduce the number of heats run, cut the field from 32 to 16, and/or gone to single elimination in order to finish.

A solution would be for ISSA to create a RACE PLANNING TEAM made of up racers, race organizers, professional course setters, etc. This TEAM would travel to the location of the major or main races weeks prior to the event to survey the terrain, pre-set the courses, and work with the organization on rule compliance. Sponsorships would have to be solicited to pay for this because no race organization would have the money to do so. Race organizers putting on MAINs or MAJORs should NOT have to cover this cost.

Yes, Ramon is correct that the TIGHT course on Gordon Street for the Worlds did open to 8 feet...I went back and measured them this past week...yes..the dots are still there...and we did have 5.5's at the top. It may have been open to some of the very top racers at the bottom but if you watch any video of the PRO duals there was still significant cone carnage at the bottom for many racers. On that hill we focused on cones per second as opposed to spacing.

We also did not have the luxury of finding another hill with less grade that was appropriate and available for use on Sunday. The City of Statesville bent over backwards in working with us on venue selection, making road repairs, providing electricity, etc. The city engineer actually took an afternoon off and we drove around the city looking at roads along with Evan St. Clair. My point is that race organizers have to work with what they have available and if the rules become too restrictive the ISSA runs a very strong risk of losing some organizers in the process.

Don't get me wrong, I believe we do need a set of rules/guidelines to follow but whatever you do they CAN"T be so complicated that they are not able to be complied with by the race organizers.

ONE POINT I wanted to add: I welcome all feedback both good and bad about all of my events so no one should feel that they can NOT be critical of something I did. I am one of those people that actually takes criticism like that and try to make my next event better. Does it hurt my feelings? Of course it does...thats being human..and for those of you that know me, know, I do take it personal, however, once I have pitched a fit, broken a few things, cussed alot (which requires me to pray and ask for forgiveness), I am completely focused on making things better at the next event. (smiling)
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Post by Peter Klang » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:54 pm

I know it...
Last edited by Peter Klang on Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Marion Karr » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:54 pm

By the way the Downhillbillies Course Setting Philosophy is Called the 3 F's:

Courses MUST be:

1. Above all else FAST.

2. They must FLOW (avoiding hurky jerky offsets or placements that rob speed)

3. They must be FUN to skate.
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:37 pm

I don't think it would be very productive to ask racers about bad things at events over the last couple of years. Also there's no real need for it. People who have been to many races know about such things, listen to Ramon for example if you want some inside information Pat, but please no survey.

The intention of the ISSA rule book should be to assist race organizers, so that they don't have to know everything. They have a book and they can look it up. We need to help them get their act together rather than come up with a list of criticism for past events.

I don't agree with Claude that people are doing races to earn money. I think those, if any, must be very rare. There are so many easier ways to earn money.

The main issue with course setting for me is to make it fair. Once that is settled I want all the rest as well!

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One doesn't have too agree with facts.

Post by Claude Regnier » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:07 pm

Jani, the fact that you don't agree, doesn't matter. The fact is a couple of people organize races to get paid for the time they put into it. that you can not dispute.

I know your trying to save space in the forums but at least copy the entire particulars of a post you wish to comment on. "In some case" was what I started my comment with.

I don't think you were at the two events in question this. I heard one of the orgizers isn't coming back because he didn't make any money as well. Can you really deny that?

I don't agree with Claude t"hat people are doing races to earn money". I think those, if any, must be very rare. There are so many easier ways to earn money.

This is oposed to the people that put on events for the purpose of hosting slalom races. Most don't make any money and most are lucky to break even.

I'm not suggesting a survey or any direct public comments about events but there should certainly be a gathering of information or then everything else remains a huge waste of time.

ISSA has a responsibility, just like the racers and organizers.

Marion you and the DHB did a great job with the race courses. Yes, the bottoms could have been tighter and there would certainly been more DQ's in all levels. There were enough as it was.

I don't think anyone wants to take course setting away from good course setting at events. I think it is more along the lines of problem areas with courses. just something stated to ensure that if this occurs then the skaters hav the ability to speak with the organizers and be heard.
Last edited by Claude Regnier on Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Peter Klang » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:10 pm

If anyone out there knows how to make money from puting on races, please let me know. The 2005 European Championship cost me some green.

Lets just drop it, I love you all. I just wanna race, don´t you?

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Re: One doesn't have too agree with facts.

Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:39 pm

Claude Regnier wrote:Jani, the fact that you don't agree, doesn't matter. The fact is a couple of people organize races to get paid for the time they put into it. that you can not dispute.

I know your trying to save space in the forums but at least copy the entire particulars of a post you wish to comment on. "In some case" was what I started my comment with.

I don't think you were at the two events in question this. I heard one of the orgizers isn't coming back because he didn't make any money as well. Can you really deny that?
What races? What organizers?

Why not name names? There's no need for confidentiality in this case. Some race organizers are putting on events to make money. Who?
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The role of surveys, rule books, and status assignment.

Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:15 am

Jani Soderhall wrote:I don't think it would be very productive to ask racers about bad things at events over the last couple of years.
My intention (and what I thought I said) is to do a survey of the 2007 sanctioned events -- not the "last couple of years".
I don't see how this could NOT be productive to find out from the racers what they thought of the races, relative to the status that was given. Otherwise, without feedback, how can we find out what is expected vs delivered for each race status?

With this information, we could, for example, be more attentive to the course setting in 2008 for determining the race status -- if this is what the racers want. Alternatively, if the racers feel they want more "party atmosphere" then we could pay more attention to the "extra events" and ammenities section of the sanction application.

The survey was mostly to help us assign the correct status to races in 2008 and give ISSA and contest organizers some guidance as to what the racers are looking for. Not as a direct tool to affect the race rules. (At least this is my intent).
Jani Soderhall wrote: The intention of the ISSA rule book should be to assist race organizers, so that they don't have to know everything. They have a book and they can look it up. We need to help them get their act together rather than come up with a list of criticism for past events.
The rule book is for organizers AND for racers. It is not meant to be a complete how-to guide for putting on a race, but only to cover the rules -- the things that directly affect the outcome of the race.

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How important is course-setting?

Post by Martin Drayton » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:50 am

Maybe I'm missing something, but if a lot of time, effort etc is put in by several people to make the race work and there is great publicity, a good crowd, TV etc...Doesn't it suck if the course is not challenging enough, impossible or so easy that no-one hits cones all day? Case in point - The Bobby Turner Memorial Tight Slalom event. It had all of the above plus courses so wide, riders were doing it on 36" GS boards to be vaguely competitive.

An appropriate course is the centrepiece of the whole event! Are people also seriously saying that visiting racers do not have the skill and knowledge to set a course in a place they have never been before and 'local knowledge' is king? I disagree. We all set without experience EVERY time we slalom at a new spot, because someone rides there does that mean that they will set a better course?

How about the 3 highest ranked racers in conjunction with someone designated by the Organiser. ie at a fictional event Mitchell, Ramon and Paul Price in conjuction with John Smith (The Organisers designated Setting advisor) helping set at Hobby Park. 3 racers from 3 different countries with lots of experience and a local who has skated there. This would take pressure off John Smith who would have been setting for his much slower speed and different skill level and probably set something unsuitable.

-OR-

The Organiser gets the Am course and the Pro racers set the Pro course. People are always quoting the FIS, do you know what they do? One of the coaches of a competing nation is selected at random. Then you are guaranteed that they try to set what their top racer likes!!! Really fair....not!

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:39 pm

I don't think you were at the two events in question this. I heard one of the orgizers isn't coming back because he didn't make any money as well. Can you really deny that?
If you come with things like that, than say who it is ?

Is it possible to run a slalom event by an one man show ? You will need at least 5 people who help and 6 cone judges at least. 11 people just to run the event, without organising anything.

12 hours which takes it for shure to build the things up, running the event and get all things away from the street.

No one earns money on a slalom event. The most didn't have the money to have displays for the audience.


/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:54 pm

some points...
hannover won't happen anymore because of monetary issues,to put it that way...

good courses should definitely been set by EXPERIENCED riders.
it can't be that any organizer has that right for jimself due to various contra options which i don't want to explain here now.
brixlegg happened with a handful of experienced riders(ramon was part of it) and the courses were good.fast,flowing,fun.
whereas other contests didn't show this in the recent past/year.
top racers need to be involved to ensure a certain level of QUALITY.
this will also reflect in the latter races.
it surely does not help the sport to have unexperienced people determing what a course should look like.their vision will always be limited to their actual skill level and so being utterly contraproductive to the quality of any race.

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Post by Stephen Lavin » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:12 pm

Perhaps as part of the sanctioning of an event the course description/proposed layout and course-setter credentials should be reviewed as part of the process? This could be a board or committee review. These course setting creds could be a team of people BTW, not just one person. There is no reason why some of this course design consulting cannot happen remote to the race locs.

I do agree with others here that a level of slalom event knowledge is important when it comes to understanding the sport (downhill skating vs. GS skating for example) and setting a course that can be challenging and true to certain known criteria and historical events of note.

There are many very good course setting suggestions, drawings and styles on these boards. An event description outlining the intended course design (does not have to be exactly what will be presented that day but should be within an acceptable change range) and the organizers that have accepted responsibility in setting the course with a primary "architect" along with secondary designers (someone has to learn right) must be submitted for sanctioning.

Keep in mind even the best course setters make changes day of race for all the right reasons. This change (usually minor and within inches) always comes from great skating experience however. At least this is true in my experiences.

Perhaps a respected list of course architects could be compiled from ISSA members or Board members that could assist race organizers with a pool of designs to choose from with certain freedoms built in for race day?

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:54 pm

you always need to see and skate the venue if you want to set a course properly.printed out examples won't help here,even though the idea is nice it's not very realistic.

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Post by Marion Karr » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:12 pm

No one has still answered my question (with the exception of Ramon in a PM): When during a mult-day event (A Main or a Major) do you plan/purpose to have these courses by the Guest/Pro Skaters set? In my humble opinion, (I have only been putting on events for three years), setting the course on race day is not practical. Setting the course the day before may work but ONLY on race events that are single day events.

If ISSA deems to have this type of requirement again I propose we find a way to fund it: Pay for the travel and time of the professionals to come in weeks before an event to create the courses to be used. This will still place a burden on the race promoter to get access to race venues in order to do it. (THE City of STatesville is an exception to most towns I have heard that have hosted events. They allowed us to block roads multiple times for testing and course setting....we had to go to the City Council multiple times for approvals in order to accomplish it...It also required us to work late at night: The courses on Gordon Street used for the Worlds were all set and replicated on consecutive nights the week before the event ...The DHB was allowed to block the road from 7 pm to 2 am for three nights....Are your Guest Course Setters going to be up for that?

Don't get me wrong.....racers deserve to have courses set that are worthy of the events being held and there should be a way to rectify poor courses the day of the event. The DHB has tried to include input from various top level racers and put forth a product that is acceptable. I feel, however, that if you tie the hands of hte race promoter too much when it comes to course setting the promoters may be reluctant of holding the event in the first place.

For a MAJOR such as the Worlds maybe we should employ this approach and start a fund to cover the cost...call in the World Championship Fund. For other races, Main, Primes, etc. the race organization should have control of course setting with recommendations from ISSA.
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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:32 pm

DISCIPLINES
Complicated rules won't be used or won't fit to every cases.
Charts like the one Corky posted are a good start
completed with guidelines like the proposed by Ramon
(or everythin in one chart: we can add more columns for steepness.. but keep it simple)

as long as people with experience are involved in the setting of the course, it should be OK

So the ISSA work is also to verify that some experienced people are part of the organization --> who is to set up the courses and eventually when should perhaps be part of the Races Application Forms.

WHO IS SETTING THE COURSE
I can see two main alternatives that we can use easily:

- 2 countries are picked up (randomly) and one more people is someone designed by the organizer (himself, a racer or an experienced helper...)

- the organizer choose to take the responsibility to set the courses and he will have to communicate at least 8 or 15 days before the race about what racers can expect (number of cones, distance between them, offsets, steepness, asphalt quality...)


The good thing with setting a course on the day (or night before) the race is that you can be sure that everybody is discovering the course nearly at the same time
BUT in some case, you can not/should not loose some time for that on the race day.

so WHEN could be something you have to announced too so everybody can do what he has to do.


One detail:

From what I've seen of slalom skateboarding, minimum cone distance should be 1m50.
Less is for roller-blades, isn't it?
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Post by Eddy Martinez » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:46 pm

If only all cities were as cooperative as others. Last year we were going to set the GS on BIG VIEW on Thursday the police showed up and told us we did not have permission to be on the hill until Saturday. BIG VIEW is located in Travis County the homes there are million dollar homes, it is a very affluent part of the city. Please remember this is the City of Austin, not a small town, it is the Capitol of Texas, a very congested and busy place, time is everything. Population 656562. So the guest setter for us has allways been fair to everyone. At the Buckeye as I said Karl and Da Weasle set the TS for the AMs and it worked. For me it was fun, it was TS for sure made me come home and do some home work. Not all cities are as cooperative as others. As for making money on the slalom contest. We have allways lost money, basically because we want to stay as grass roots as possible. This is a labor of love for The Texas Outlaws. I know this next year we are charging 60$ entry fee. Last year was 40$. Some organizers can talk about the cost involved in their contest, but for us it is about you the skater. 1. You are spending money on the airline ticket. 2. You are spending money on gas driving to Texas. 3. You are spending money on the accomodations. 4. You are spending money on food. So for us staying as close to GRS as possible. There is no money to be made here, we accept the losses. We love the fact that you have come to our contest and please remember that we busted are asses putting the event together. I believe the only new rule we have this year. IS. Anyone trying to sabotage or start a coudeta will be asked to leave the contest given back there entry fee. we all ready have alot to worry about during this time. Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws/Pavel Flow

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:55 pm

Good points and summary Vinzz,

In reference to Marion:

Ramón Königshausen wrote: [...]Wouldn't it be enough if that Team meets the day before the competition? With me, this has worked in the past. [...] (Paris, Hannover, Zürich...)
This is an extract of the before mentioned PM.

Same opinion in Vincent's statement:
Vincent Berruchon wrote: The good thing with setting a course on the day (or night before) the race is that you can be sure that everybody is discovering the course nearly at the same time
BUT in some case, you can not/should not loose some time for that on the race day.

so WHEN could be something you have to announced too so everybody can do what he has to do.
Vincent Berruchon wrote:
One detail:

From what I've seen of slalom skateboarding, minimum cone distance should be 1m50.
Less is for roller-blades, isn't it?
For Straight Slalom this really makes sense. Running a series of cones in the same distance shorter than 1.5m (4.92 ft.) is too tight for a competition.
Whereas in a Special Slalom cone distances can be less than 1.5m, since it's not a series of cones set in a straight line the course may open up again.

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Last edited by Ramón Königshausen on Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Stephen Lavin » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:55 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:you always need to see and skate the venue if you want to set a course properly.printed out examples won't help here,even though the idea is nice it's not very realistic.
Agreed Don, assumption being the ones trying to organize the event already have most of the experience needed, just agreement on course pattern or general layout in advance of the race day. Rake, pitch, etc. and other facts about lay of the land should be considered as you point out - no argument there.

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Post by Marion Karr » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:42 am

Another issue of race day course set up is SAFETY....!! Ask Evan St. Clair about his NASCAR crash into the DJ booth at the Buckeye two summers ago.....We (Cbark and myself) were setting the course the day of the event while all the racers and spectators and cone heads were milling about the hill. While we working some skaters who were not suppose to be taking runs were bombing the hill. Others who were trying to help out were crossing back and forth across the tarmac. Evan was taking a test run when by accident someone stepped out in front of him...the result was as 25 mph ground/sky/ground/sky flip flip flip through the grass and right into the speaker stand!!!

If you are going to do RACE DAY course setting at a MAJOR or MAIN race where you have large number of racers and people somehow you will have to tell everyone NOT to get there until later in the day. As we all know, no matter what time you say things will start, racers are going to show up early. Then you have to deal with those few who insist that they make 4000 runs down the hill.........It's bad enough having to deal with that when you are putting cones down, chalking, and putting tape strips down......add setting a new course and replicating it for dual lane and again you have a recipe for disaster.

If Guests Course Setters are going to be implored then it must be done in my mind on a different day...either the day before ..which can be possibl but difficult on a three or four day event...or weeks prior which makes more sense.

Also, the idea that race organizers get some advantage because they have ridden the course before seems a little too much of a concern. In any sport the "home team" always has some advantages: familiarity with the climate, the pavement type, sleeping in their own beds, eating their local faire or at home, no jet lag, etc. In slalom racing though this advantage is mitigated primarily by the fact that if you are local racer you are most likely assisting in putting on the race or are an integral part of the management of the event.
Cbark can tell you all about this at the Nationals. I am not that good of a skater but Evan and I did set the TIGHT course used for the Worlds and I was able to clean it or run it with only limited cones. On Sunday I was so exhausted from being on the hill every morning at 5:30 am (and if you don't believe me ask Paul Dostaler because I drug his ass with me), staying up to 1 am or later each night getting things ready for the next day I couldn't make it through the top 15 cones.

I am being redundant so this will be the last time I say it: I agree that the ISSA should have guidelines for course setting and I even agree with the idea that having OUTSIDE course setters can be a good thing but I must say it needs to be limited to ONLY the World Championships (the OUTSIDE Course Setter part) and that we as a group need to figure out a way to fund the travel of these "professional" course setters to the venues where the WORLDS is to be held a few weeks before the event to establish the set up. We can also work with the race promoter at the location on how to go about "selling" the idea to their local government that they need pre-access to the venues and getting such approval. This could come in the form of a written request and follow up from the ISSA board. (We actually used such an email to convince our City Council that indeed we were hosting this years Worlds).

I must comment however, that if the ISSA creates a cumbersome and restrictive set of guidelines that dictate how the races must be run then race organizers at the local level will become reluctant to put on "sanctioned" events. I am only speaking for myself now and NOT the DHB when I say, I would be one of those race promoters.

Today we are still a grassroots sport that is being put on by grassroots organizers. Until we are able to get the numbers of participants and sponsors that would allow us to create and fund a RACE OFFICIALS GROUP that would travel to and run each race (USA Cycling being the example: No matter who holds a race in their city USA Cycling for a fee provides all the race officials, timing, course marshalls, etc) the burden of running the race is going to fall on these grassroots groups. DON'T make that burden worse by creating a rules/requirements list that is impractical to manage.
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Post by Marcos Soulsby-Monroy » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:11 am

I think that the Organizer should have as much latitude as possible. If they want to set the course ahead of time or the day of the race or use a guest setter that should be their prerogative. That being said I think there should be guideline such as Pat and JBH have used in their examples. But I also feel the for MOST hills the limits on cone-spacing are reasonable. There just needs to be latitude for the organizer. I think that no matter how many rules there are about this there will still be conflicts.
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Post by Marcus Rietema » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:28 am

If slalom is ever going to grow, we need to package it properly so that event promoters can work with the ISSA to create a successful event. As long as we are relying on racers to organize the events, this sport will grow little from where it currently sits. The ISSA needs to be well respected by both the racers and event promoters alike.

The entire show needs to be neatly packaged so that if someone wants to promote a big race, they can come to the ISSA, pay a sanctioning fee and they will have the proper guidelines, personal and equipment available to them to put on a good show. The promoter is responsible for securing the venue, infrastructure, safety, event website, pre-event publicity, athlete registration, sponsors, media, athlete parties and activities, etc. The ISSA is responsible for the technicalities of the race including start ramps, timing system, course setting, event format, rules, regulations, final results and awarding points in the World Rankings. They also would help with the pre-event publicity and securing sponsors.

The ISSA needs to get involved with the organization of events and raise the level of professionalism. I have raced in five ISSA sanctioned events this year and except for an outlaw at the Pump station, every single one of them was delayed due to timing issues for at least an hour and often much more! This included the Nationals and the World's!!! Everyone seems to accept this as okay??? The start ramps at the World’s required people to be hanging on to them so they wouldn’t move when the racer pulled from the start… It should be the ISSA’s responsibility to make sure that these types of problems don’t exist.

An experienced “ISSA Technical Delegate” (TD) needs to be present at every Major/Main race. This person should be very familiar with the ISSA rules to make judgments on any disputes or questions that may arise, have a good understanding of how to how to set up and work the timing system and software, know how to set up proper courses and be respected by his peers, not race for the duration of the event so they can do the work without prejudice or conflict of interest. The “TD” should arrive a minimum of two days before the event to check the racecourses and all equipment and work with the organizer to make changes to meet the standards of an ISSA Major/Main event. All of the TD’s expenses should be paid for the duration of the trip and they should also be paid a wage for their time.

The ISSA would use the sanctioning fee for Major/Main events and cover the “TD’s” expenses from these fees. This would work especially in the early years while events are still growing. If required, the promoter should raise the current entry fees to cover the sanctioning fee. As the sport grows in the future, the sanctioning fees could be increased so that some money would go to the ISSA as well. When the ISSA actually has something to offer the promoters, they will gladly pay the sanctioning fees because hosting an ISSA Major/Main event will ensure they get a lot of participation and a well organized event. We need to develop a business model where the promoter of an ISSA event can at least feel confident they will get their money back and hopefully make a profit.

We don’t need more committee’s. We don’t need a rulebook that is as thick as a phone book trying to cover every conceivable technicality. We don’t need people to fill out surveys on what they like or don’t like. We don’t need endless talk and votes on this message board trying to figure out the simplest problems. WE DON'T NEED RULES THAT TAKE THE FUN OUT OF SLALOM SKATEBOARDING!!! Nobody is making enough money to live off this sport. If we don't make the events a fun experience for the competitors, slalom skateboarding will quickly loose its' client base. If we can't make the events profitable for the promoters, they won't want to organize quality events.WE MUST NEVER FORGET THAT PEOPLE ARE SPENDING THEIR TIME AND MONEY ON THIS SPORT TO HAVE A GOOD TIME. Some very significant changes are required! Slalom skateboarding needs people willing to take the bull by the horns, who can make rational decisions and take the ISSA into a position where it has the respect of the racers and event promoters alike. At this time I don’t think it has either…
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Post by Pat Chewning » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:50 am

Marcus Rietema wrote: I have raced in five ISSA sanctioned events this year and except for an outlaw at the Pump station, every single one of them was delayed due to timing issues for at least an hour and often much more! …
Weren't you at the Oregon State Games? Didn't we start on time and have no timer issues?

===============


I agree that these "logistical" and "organizational" items do not need to be in the rule book.. (e.g. Who sets the course, how they are selected, who pays their fee, how many days in advance, etc.) When I read the rules for football or baseball, they are not riddled with things like who mows the lawn, how many days in advance to reserve the ballpark , etc. The rules concentrate on things like how many yards make a 1st down, how many outs in an inning, etc.

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Post by Martin Drayton » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:38 am

To answer some of Marion's points:

-To deal with skaters on the hill-, Jack Smith was probably most effective at any comp I've been saying "Carry on skating and you are disqualified, the more you skate the more you delay the event for everyone!" You are too nice!!! Damn, you're a potentially scary looking dude, just say it once (use the Rock's look in 'Be Cool' with the eyebrow) and they'll stop! ;)

-Setting up several times before the event?
...Sounds like you are in an enviable position with Statesville, for our Park City race we had to fight to get it closed the once and everytime they would have closed it, we would have had to had paid for loss of earnings of the parking meters (7 days a week). Eddy and I'm sure most others are in the same boat.

-I think guest course-setters for World Champs only
could result in inconsistant courses throughout the season then something completely different for the big showcase day.

-The question of a guest course-setter should be seen as a help to the Organiser, one less thing to worry about rather than a restriction. I, like you on race day was up at a rediculous time and would have been more than happy for a qualified/experienced person to set the courses.

Marcos-The guidelines help, but there is plenty of latitude to take those fairly widely varying specs and set something that doesn't do the event justice.

Marcus R-Your input obviously comes from experience with an organisation who is further down the road than we are! Great advice...we do end up 'making-do' a lot, but it is hard to get everything right and won't be an overnight change. Its taken years to get to the level of uniformity we have now with ramps, here in the UK our first proper ones are still under construction! We need ALGE or something similar for timimg gear but it costs a fortune and I have contacted professional timing companies who will come and do the whole thing and they quoted $1000 for a half day! Its the old chicken and egg as I see it - More money from big outside sponsors would do it, but we won't be able to attract them until we have some kind of uniformity that will cost money to implement!

The thing that gives me hope? The fact we are all talking about it and giving input because we are all passionate about skating and trying to make it better....together!

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Post by Marcus Rietema » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:44 pm

Marcus R-Your input obviously comes from experience with an organisation who is further down the road than we are! Great advice...we do end up 'making-do' a lot, but it is hard to get everything right and won't be an overnight change. Its taken years to get to the level of uniformity we have now with ramps, here in the UK our first proper ones are still under construction! We need ALGE or something similar for timimg gear but it costs a fortune and I have contacted professional timing companies who will come and do the whole thing and they quoted $1000 for a half day! Its the old chicken and egg as I see it - More money from big outside sponsors would do it, but we won't be able to attract them until we have some kind of uniformity that will cost money to implement!

The thing that gives me hope? The fact we are all talking about it and giving input because we are all passionate about skating and trying to make it better....together!
Martin, The crazy thing about all of this is that when we were first starting the IGSA back in 1996, we actually contacted Jani and asked his permission to use parts of the ISSA Rulebook as a guideline for our first rulebook. We've managed to build downhill from absolutely nothing to where it is today in eleven years. Until this year, there has been more industry support for slalom than there ever has for downhill. I think the slalom world doesn't realize how close they are to having a legitimate world tour. 90% of the pieces are there. The ISSA just needs to put them together! Right now there are people putting on good events in Australia and Brazil in addition to Europe and North America. It just takes proper planning. The window is already closing for 2008. The ISSA should begin working on the 2009 season and having a legitimate world tour NOW.

Sure it will take some money to buy proper timing equipment but slalom has the rider base and the industry support to purchase what is required. A Tag Heuer timing base is around $1000 and it would work with the existing tape switches and software. I'm sure Alge has something similar. Brittle telephone wire needs to be replaced by something highly durable like military communication wire. We've used it for years and it's cheap. You just need to find a source for surplus. The ISSA could use yearly membership fees, do a fund raiser, ask for donations and lots of other things to raise the money. Slalom just needs to get organized, make good decisions, act on them quickly and start planning ahead.
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Post by Marcos Soulsby-Monroy » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:08 pm

Martin Drayton Posted: 23 Oct 2007 23:38 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Marcos-The guidelines help, but there is plenty of latitude to take those fairly widely varying specs and set something that doesn't do the event justice.
Martin I agree with what you say here, perhaps I did not express that is my earlier post . . .It was late and had already worked 16 hours that day :) What I really wanted to get across is that the guidelines is that, in Jonathan Harms post for instance. He used the example of the way skiing regs are applied depended more on how the skier would have to navigate the course and the hill that it was on than the spacing on the course. I think that this approach to skating is the best one, although I concede that it is harder to define.
Martin Drayton Posted: 23 Oct 2007 23:38 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcus R-Your input obviously comes from experience with an organisation who is further down the road than we are! Great advice...we do end up 'making-do' a lot, but it is hard to get everything right and won't be an overnight change. Its taken years to get to the level of uniformity we have now with ramps, here in the UK our first proper ones are still under construction! We need ALGE or something similar for timimg gear but it costs a fortune and I have contacted professional timing companies who will come and do the whole thing and they quoted $1000 for a half day! Its the old chicken and egg as I see it - More money from big outside sponsors would do it, but we won't be able to attract them until we have some kind of uniformity that will cost money to implement!

The thing that gives me hope? The fact we are all talking about it and giving input because we are all passionate about skating and trying to make it better....together!
Marcus R I agree with Martin on this one. You hit the nail on the head on what the ISSA'a roles should be, it is just getting all the organizers and skaters under one roof that is going to be the tedious part :) But I think it can be done!!
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:32 pm

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If Marty Schaub or Marcio Benevides chime in here, I'm calling the authorities!
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We could learn from this...

Post by Martin Drayton » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:29 am

Marcus Rietema wrote: Martin, The crazy thing about all of this is that when we were first starting the IGSA back in 1996, we actually contacted Jani and asked his permission to use parts of the ISSA Rulebook as a guideline for our first rulebook. We've managed to build downhill from absolutely nothing to where it is today in eleven years. Until this year, there has been more industry support for slalom than there ever has for downhill. I think the slalom world doesn't realize how close they are to having a legitimate world tour. 90% of the pieces are there. The ISSA just needs to put them together! Right now there are people putting on good events in Australia and Brazil in addition to Europe and North America. It just takes proper planning. The window is already closing for 2008. The ISSA should begin working on the 2009 season and having a legitimate world tour NOW.

Sure it will take some money to buy proper timing equipment but slalom has the rider base and the industry support to purchase what is required. A Tag Heuer timing base is around $1000 and it would work with the existing tape switches and software. I'm sure Alge has something similar. Brittle telephone wire needs to be replaced by something highly durable like military communication wire. We've used it for years and it's cheap. You just need to find a source for surplus. The ISSA could use yearly membership fees, do a fund raiser, ask for donations and lots of other things to raise the money. Slalom just needs to get organized, make good decisions, act on them quickly and start planning ahead.
The fact that you guys did it in that space of time and got to where you are now should be 'kick up the backside' to us in slalom to forget doing things a certain way, because thats how they've always been done,and drag the sport into the public eye with a united, professional and exciting front!
Lets raise some money to start with until the sponsors with the tax write-off donations are attracted. The method will have to be something fair, because to levy ISSA member only would mean a few paying for the many...

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Re: We could learn from this...

Post by Vincent Berruchon » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:52 am

Martin Drayton wrote:The fact that you guys did it in that space of time and got to where you are now should be 'kick up the backside' to us in slalom to forget doing things a certain way, because thats how they've always been done,and drag the sport into the public eye with a united, professional and exciting front!
Lets raise some money to start with until the sponsors with the tax write-off donations are attracted. The method will have to be something fair, because to levy ISSA member only would mean a few paying for the many...
We'll have to discuss that somewhere else...
Again and again, when will ISSA become a registered association? where you want but how can companies or even people give money in a virtual thing registered nowhere??
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Re: Please expand this idea into specific proposal.

Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:22 pm

Pat Chewning wrote:Wes: Can you do something for me? Can you make a specific proposal of cones-per-distance for each of the 5 disciplines? Can you do it in international (metric) units since we are the ISSA and not the ASSA?
Pat,

Here's my proposal for a vote. Below the line is an explanation of a couple of points but not part of the actual rule. The "*" and "^" are also naturally not part of the proposed rule.
_______________________________________________________

Course length is determined as distance from first cone to last cone. Lead in from start line to first cone and from last cone to finish line are not considered for these specifications.

Tight slalom:
May be run on flat or sloped surface. Grade and surface quality determine actual cone spacing at course setter's discretion within the following requirements.
Cone offset distances from course center line at course setter's discretion.
Tight slalom course must meet the following specification:
(15-20) cones per 30 Meters (2 - 1.5 meter spacing)

Hybrid Slalom:
Must be run on sloped surface. Grade and surface quality determine actual cone spacing at course setter's discretion within the following requirements.
Cone offset distances from course center line at course setter's discretion.
Hybrid slalom courses must meet the following specification:
(7-15) cones per 30 meters (4.5 - 2 meter spacing)

Giant Slalom:
Must be run on sloped surface. Grade and surface quality determine actual cone spacing at course setter's discretion within the following requirements.
Cone offsets distances must be 10% of distance between the entrance and exit cone of the offset.*
(3-15) cones FIRST 30 Meters (10 meter-2 meter spacing)^ + (3-10) cones each additional 30 Meters. (10 - 3 meter spacing.)
_______________________________________________________

*I know. What does this mean? Simple: To have an offset a skater must first enter ahead of the offet, go around the offset cone and then exit the offset of the next cone. A total of THREE CONES.

So, let's say the total distance from the entrance and exit cones is 40 feet. That means the offset cone (which can be equidistant between these two cones or closer to one cone or the other) MUST BE OFFSET AT LEAST FOUR FEET FROM THE CENTERLINE. This doesn't mean the offset is only four feet. The entrance cone may be three feet off the center line opposite the offset cone and the exit cone may be two feet off the centerline on the same side as the offset cone. That means the offset cone is offset seven feet over from the entrance cone and only two feet offset from the exit cone. In other words it's a cranker to get over to the offset but lightens up coming out of it to the next cone.

Plus, the offset can be anything over 10% the course setter wants. 10% is just the MINIMUM.

I know this also means the entrance cone is the offset cone for the cone above it on the course and this four-foot offset we just set is the exit for that particular offset. Same principal applies: measure the distance and the offset must be 10% of the distance.

What does this do? It ensures that GIANT SLALOM courses are SLALOM COURSES and not mild no-offset downhill courses with a little wiggle to the left and right to make the course. We are, after all, SLALOM SKATERS, not downhillers.

And trust me, the math and measuring isn't that hard. Once you find the centerline of the course just make sure each offset is at least 10% off the centerline of the distrance between cones above and below it.

^What does this mean? It means the cones can be closer at the top of the hill where slalom skaters can pick up speed. After 30 meters, (100 feet) the course has to open up and be a "real" giant slalom. Plus, the 10 meter spacing option means if it's a big hill this clause still allows for big spacings and offsets even at the top of the hill.

One last thing: set a really good GS course and it's going to meet the specifications just by default. What it does is just eliminate "slaloming Downhill" and keeps the GS course a "downhill Slalom."
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Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:15 am

I'm happy to anounce that Jonathan Harms will be gathering the various proposals and putting them together into a reasonable proposal to vote on. (For this section of the rules)

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:04 pm

What is a dsicipline? The distance or the feel? None of the definitions are wrong but we had that discussion in 2003 and we came to the conclusion to use distance since that is something you can measure in rules/guidelines.

From that I constructed the discipline table from the distance discussion (simular to the one here) as an example. Whatever course you did it could be fit into that table with a discipline name. If not it would be an unauthorized course. I agree that "Super Tight" as discipline is maybe not needed but it is just a theoretical name. The table is just to name and fit courses into some sort of a template. But what the names are is not important. A special slalom (Hybrid slalom) could feel much tighter in a steep hill than a Tight slalom on flat.

The discipline table is one thing. The disciplines you race at an event is another thing. I like the way Ramon looks at it. An event has 2-3 disciplines and you want them all to produce some different aspect on slalom racing. This means there are to types we have:
1. Course types (built on cone distance)
2. Event disicplines (built on racing feel aspect)

In Europe this is often
- A straight course (Tight or hybrid)
- A special course (special as in irregular) (Tight or Hybrid)
- A GS course (GS)

When AM and PRO classes. The pro courses are tighter except for the GS.

In US it is often
- A special course (special as in irregular) (Tight)
- A special course (special as in irregular) (Hybrid)
- A GS course (GS or Super GS)

US almost never rides straight courses.


What I like with European way (and the way the old ISSA rules was set up) is that the three "event disciplines" you normally run are looking different and have different philosofies. When running a tight irregular and a hybrid irregular it does not change much. For the audience it's just the same thing.

The idea with different disciplines in an event is to make sure there are different feel and skills to each discipline. The easiest way to do this is to use the European version. This is an infected area since many don't like straight slalom but that just makes the point. It's different. Some are suited better for straight slalom where the exteme pumping skills are more imortant and the racing aspect is everything. And other for irregular courses where course tecnique is more important and where dual slalom is not really needed. It's more the course than the other racers you are fighting against.

So then to the old rules.
The old rules was setting up very exact guidlines from what "event disicplines" to expect from an event. The straight parallel/dual lane slalom, the special single lane slalom and the Giant slalom. And with some guidelines on the cone spacing. This was working well and everybody new what to expect at the events.

And the new rules.
Things have changed. Dual slalom is now more implemented and used as standard also for special slalom. Therefore the rules cannot stay the same as before. They have to be loosened up. But the main idea still should be kept. Three different aspects of slalom racing. As it is today this is by using these 4 courses...

- Straight (Tight or Loose) (dual or single)
- Special (irregular) (Tight version) (dual or single)
- Special (irregular) (Loose version) (dual or single)
- GS (Surf version) (single)

How you set them depends on:
- Event status: The higher the status the more serious and skilled racers
- Class groups: Open or Pro/Am classes
- Class: Kids or seniors
- Spot: Flat/Hill, surface, start ramps, ...

Either you have very complex rules taking into account all or you have very loose rules just explaining the intent of each discipline. And then it is up to the course setter to implement that intent.

The organizer can always set the courses in advance becaus they know the environment very well. For the pros they have a 3-man pre-selected group with possibilities to change the course on race day if they see the need for it. In worst case scenario the course has to be redone totally. Best cases it's ok. Often the course will be ok or need little adjustment. Very few cases will have the need of major changes.

If organizers have no pro riders in their organisation they should ask the pre-selected group of pro racers for advice to avoid any major course problems.


S#t! This became a long post. Now I have to go and eat...

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Voting on Section 9 rules

Post by Pat Chewning » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:57 am

I condensed the ideas presented here into 5 votes for Section 9. They appear in the 1st posting in this forum/topic area.

Please quickly take a look and tell me if the proposed 5-voting questions fairly and adequately capture the proposals presented in this discussion.

Voting starts on 15NOV2007 ....

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MOVED HERE FROM VOTING FORUM

Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:27 pm

Hans Koraeus wrote:If choosing "each cone spacing" we will forbid the use of the "anti cones". Can be set very tight but since they are on the "wrong side" they are not so tight as it looks.

I think it would be sad if this was forbidden as standard. I think many (as myself) have not thought about this. :-(

And I think we have forgotten the Average on the whole course...

Moved here from VOTING FORUM -- Context: Vote on the cone spacing rules.

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MOVED HERE FROM THE VOTING FORUM

Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:29 pm

Martin Drayton wrote:
Hans Koraeus wrote:If choosing "each cone spacing" we will forbid the use of the "anti cones". Can be set very tight but since they are on the "wrong side" they are not so tight as it looks.

I think it would be sad if this was forbidden as standard. I think many (as myself) have not thought about this. :-(

And I think we have forgotten the Average on the whole course...
I think more people will understand the meaning if you use the phrase "gimme cones", but then my swedish isn't very good anyway! ;)

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MOVED HERE FROM THE VOTING FORUM

Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:30 pm

Ramón Königshausen wrote:For me tight slalom is limited to 2.00m maximum regardless of how steep the road is. 3m is too wide even on a steep road...


rmn

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MOVED HERE FROM THE VOTING FORUM

Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:31 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:it would also be interesting to see where the tight starts.is 1,50m the lowest?
i remember constets that were different,ramon is also right on what he says.
but.............................
we live in a world of bureaucracy,right?

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No comments/replies in the actual voting area.

Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:33 pm

I moved several comments and replies from the place where the voting is happening, into here. Replies should not have been allowed in the voting area, but I made a mistake in the permissions.

No votes were harmed in the movement of these comments into the appropriate area.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:22 am

Sorry for confusing you all. Blind cones is the term I was looking for. Here is an example of a blind cone...

Image

Often used in Europe. Maybe not as common in the States. I don't know.

With blind cones the minimum distance can't use the normal rules.

3m is maybe long but that is the very extream distance. I think it is ok to break rythm in a course with one long cone in a tight course. Maybe 1 or two of these. You can't of course have them all 3 meters. The average of the course should be within the average distance what that now will be for a TS course.

Image

In this table you have for a TS course:
Dist min: 1,4 meters (no cone distance should be less) (except for blind cones)
Avg min: 1,5 meters (the average of all cone distances for the whole course should not be less than 1,5 m)
Avg max: 2,0 meters (the average of all cone distances for the whole course should not be greater than 2,0 m)
Dist max: 3,0 meters (no cone distance should be longer)

That table is from 2004. Evolotion of trucks and wheels have made this a little bit out of date for the max limits I think. Today maybe it should be...
Dist min: 1,4 meters (no cone distance should be less) (except for blind cones)
Avg min: 1,5 meters (the average of all cone distances for the whole course should not be less than 1,5 m)
Avg max: 1,8 meters (the average of all cone distances for the whole course should not be greater than 1,8 m)
Dist max: 2,5 meters (no cone distance should be longer)

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Pro or Am specifications

Post by Ramón Königshausen » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:12 am

So there are a couple of options to vote for the specifications of Straight (or "Parallel") Slalom (SP), Tight Slalom (ST), Hybrid Slalom (HS), Giant Slalom (GS), and Super Giant Slalom (SGS).

Now my question is: are those specifications meant to be determining the Pro or the Am class, or both (which wouldn't really make sense)...?

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Re: Pro or Am specifications

Post by Martin Drayton » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:51 am

Ramón Königshausen wrote:
Now my question is: are those specifications meant to be determining the Pro or the Am class, or both (which wouldn't really make sense)...?

rmn
Hey Ramon, bear in mind outside of Europe the popular school of thought is that the courses should be the same (skill level required), just the Pros should go faster ;) !

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Re: Pro or Am specifications

Post by Pat Chewning » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:14 am

Ramón Königshausen wrote:So there are a couple of options to vote for the specifications of Straight (or "Parallel") Slalom (SP), Tight Slalom (ST), Hybrid Slalom (HS), Giant Slalom (GS), and Super Giant Slalom (SGS).

Now my question is: are those specifications meant to be determining the Pro or the Am class, or both (which wouldn't really make sense)...?

rmn
In my opinion, the specifications are intentionally broad enough to cover both Pro and AM class.

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