2010 Rules alteration: 9.2 Starting Ramp

[John Gilmour]

for instance Joe your work with the Antrim race...

The roads are already closed. We just added a race.

Same with my July 4th skateboard slalom races. And my beginner slalom course at Tavern on the Green in NYC which ran for 20 years and my memorial Drive slalom course in Cambridge MA which still runs every Sunday.

These roads are closed on a regular basis and made for good slalom. No ramps required. The July 4th road Storrow Drive is closed to cars every 4th of July, the Memorial Drive course is road is closed to cars every Sunday. NYC's Central Park is closed to cars on Weekends.

Here is another event.

http://www.nwsource.com/shopping/blog/g ... cmpid=2336

-again another tacked on skateboard race to a grouping of events.. where the porta potties, police coverage and road closure is already done .

Anyway before you got on this topic we were discussing changing ramp rules. I would like to see the ramps stay small SO THAT the hills HAVE to stay large (Texas is of course and exception with big hills and ramps).

I'd like to make an exception that big ramps can ONLY be used on hills faster than 25mph.

Hey... it just my 2 cents..

Bigger faster BETTER.

[Joe Iacovelli]

My point John is we've got big hills all over. Closing them to traffic is the issue. In Austin it cost almost $1000 to do so. Other places its just not possible. I'm glad you are involved and interested, but am not sure about where you are expending your efforts.

[John Gilmour]

In Texas ...that is one race I would like to go to. But in past experience often big ramps are used on sub par hills.


So in that regard..go for it... Big hill with an even bigger ramp...I am all for it.

I just object to big ramp + lame hill.

Joe.... borrow an Ipad... go hill hunting.. its pretty amazing and easy with it.

You don't have to be a cartographer like PSR to find a hill.. this makes it remarkably easy.

I tend to look for hills with lots of concentric lines in housing developments (dense roadways so people have alternative routes)

Also the satellite view is very helpful

[Joe Iacovelli]

Wouldn't it be great to live in a world where you could just drive around, find a big hill, and have the town agree to close it?

[Rick Floyd]

"This is a thread which IMHO isn't worth discussing."

Fooled me.

PS - I LOVE the big ramps and not one time have I launched off one on to a "pussy hill"...right Texas/NC?

[John Gilmour]

Big ramps just mean we will end up racing on pussy hills. There is no thrill to racing on pussy hills with some bigger ramp to try to make up for the lack of hill speed.

I don't care how big the ramp is... I want to race down a hill that most ordinary people would not even think of skating down.. A big ramp onto a gentle hills is weak... it just means you lose speed throughout the course until you trickle down to a speed just above pumping speed or worse if there is a head wind.

LAME LAME LAME.

Injury... you can go off the side of a big ramp (who ever heard of rolling straight off the edge of the hill?)- and as they get bigger they should be wider----- with that comes complexity , race delays, issues with rain, condensation etc... hassles... cost.. transport, assembly mistakes, structural problems...liability forget it. It's a freaking losing battle. It also allows unpracticed dorks to try and race thinking if they just survive the ramp they can race on the gentle hill....well guess what??? The Dorks will not survive the ramp...they will get injured. I remember a kid breaking his leg on the Red Bull Urban Waves ramp in Brooklyn. If that same kid saw a huge hill... he probably would say to himself....."Hmmm from my experience..that hill looks a big too hairy for me...I better sit this one out and practice at home" But a ramp...well kids think if they can survive the 3 seconds of acceleration they will be fine..

Some won't survive.

The big ramps are stupid.

(If the hill is too steep... a kid can run it out... if a ramp is too steep.... the kid gets to eat it face first)

Promoters.... Find a bigger hill. Spend the 3 weekends you would spend building ramps, annoying your neighbors with construction, and spending your beer money on 2 huge ramps no one wants to store in their cluttered garages-----spend those hours of effort a different way.

1. Borrow or buy an Ipad with 3G or use a regular one with MIFI pocket internet router (the iPhone is too small to be useful- and laptops aren't very good either). Just buy the iPad..... it will be cheaper than the ramps.
2. Click google maps
3. Switch to topographical view (bottom left corner)
4. Start driving around to find good hills, the touch screen interface and large size is IDEAL for locating hills. You can look at the topographical concentric lines and still read street names like - "Summit Ave. Look out point, Hill Street, Overlook Ave, City View, Mountain High, Peak Ave, Signal Hill, Clear View, xxxxxx canyon , xxxx ridge, etc....

If the hill is so big that you wouldn't even consider using a ramp higher than 2-3 feet.

Well.

You have found the right hill.


Big ramps will suck the speed out of our finishes. The speed doesn't last on a gentle grade.

Real hills for real men.

Small Ramps are lame...but still OK. Big ramps are way lamer. (don't get me wrong if I am presented with a big ramp on a pussy hill...yes it makes it better for me...but big ramps will lead to more and more pussy lame hills.)

The only time I ever considered building ramps..and that was to launch off of the top of a van was because we had a lame hill that was not race worthy...and adding the big ramp...would not have made it any more race worthy....just a little less boring.

IF you have a longish flatter section on top of a hill followed be a steep section which is short and then a longer fairly steep section... then a ramp could make the top of the hill usable to extend your course.....this is the only time I could see a large ramp having any value.... other than that...

Race on a better hill.

This is a thread which IMHO isn't worth discussing.

I can understand a 4 foot high ramp so spectators can see you... (But for gods sake... just find a steep enough hill so that when a skater is 20 feet up the hill he is 4 feet higher than everyone else- and only let those 2 starting skaters go that high up.

and given most races personally....because they are held on gentle hills a 5 year kid on a Big Wheel Trike could roll down... a bigger ramp would be marginally better on such a lame hill. But a great hill is way better than a big ramp on a gentle hill.

If you only have a lame hill..... DO NOT BUILD A BIG RAMP AND HOST A RACE. Go to someone else's race that has a good hill instead.


** Stubbs...no offense... that ramp you built is a work of art and looks solid and well designed.. but you can not depend on others to build something as structurally sound. I've raced on some flimsy ramps in Japan that were death traps waiting to collapse. I've seen people punch right through ramps' bottoms, fall off ramps (yes even tiny 2 foot high ramps).

It is hard/impossible to execute a safe roll or knee slide on a skinny ramp.

For instance..what if your wheels fall off on top of a huge ramp? (think that is impossible??? It has happened- and resulted in an injury to a significant/skilled/experienced racer who has WON races before which IMHO would likely just been a knee slide on a steep hill without a ramp). So what if this were to happen to a lesser skilled/experienced racer? Let's just not go there.

If you guys are hell bent on woodshop...make a great timer grandstand, some bracing for inflatable impact bags for stopping, and some tall platforms for videographers.

[Rick Floyd]

So it's roll, hold it, thrust out.

That's what I keep telling her.

[Greg Stubbs]

This BAR is way mellow. You just have to hold for a sec before you get to the thrust at the bottom. First time I rolled it I got back on my tail a bit because I was expecting the tranistion to end a bit quicker than it did. So it's roll, hold it, thrust out.

[Rick Floyd]

Looks way mellower than the Dixie BARs - and most people rode those just fine...the DBARs are a rush!

[Greg Stubbs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5MbnPuZu9Y

[Donald Campbell]

lou:that is the best and easiest bar i have seen so far.
rolling in on such a ramp is in most cases easier and way smoother than on the average height starting ramps.
to the few scared folks:if you can make it on any smaller ramp,this bar makes only one difference:more predictable and a way smoother entry into the course,as a matter of fact this baby is smooth as butter.the roll-in section is also way easier to make than any small ramp.
you are looking at a way easier start than any small ramp can offer.

i am really unbiased giving this statement,i am talking out of experience.

this bar is more than perfect and should be wonderful to ride at any race.
since it is in texas,go for it.
anybody who goes down there will walk away with a big smile on his face.

on the other hand:fear is something you have to make out with yourself,if you are too afraid you miss out on a super experience!

[Lou Statman]

Thanks Donald. I took a few runs down the ramp today. It's lots of fun. If you can ride a normal rollin you should have no problem with this one. Stubbs hit it on his tight / hybrid board with no problem.

Looking forward to seeing everyone at the Sizzler.

[Donald Campbell]

texas guys are spot on what the sport needs
by the way:on our ramp we see beginner kids go down with ease,beginner kids!!!!!!
and we have a brutal roll-in.
that ramp is so mellow and predictable,congrats on such an awesome job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[willy demis]

MAN I wish I had a shop that large! Excellent looking ramp, gents. I'm brand new to the sport and would happily go down that ramp. Looks REALLY big, but rather mellow in its transitions. Nice idea on the hand-holds to help move around each section, by the way...

[Eddy Martinez]

Just Lurking. Talk amoungst yourselves. Damm Lou Lou Bear looks like you are racing the B. A. R. Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws. Was up Rick and Neil: ) Hey Donny.

[Greg Stubbs]

[Marcos Soulsby-Monroy]

http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/ ... H00240.flv

I agree with Claude slalom is about ones ability to propel and move a skateboard through a set course faster then his or her competitor. The BAR just gives you another way to do just that.

If the timing strip is placed on ground at the top of the course it wouldn't matter if you went off the BAR, a regular start ramp, or push started the timer would start the same for everyone.

If you don't want to use the BAR no one's going to laugh at you... Well Okay someone will laugh at you, but that guy's a dick. the rest of us will understand.

I'm with Claude and 66 on this one too. Don't get me wrong big hills are fun too, but it is hard to get people to try slalom on venues like those, huge ramps are the same thing. I like Lou's idea as well that way people can choose a start that is comfortable to them.

[Lou Statman]

http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e155/ ... H00240.flv

I agree with Claude slalom is about ones ability to propel and move a skateboard through a set course faster then his or her competitor. The BAR just gives you another way to do just that.

If the timing strip is placed on ground at the top of the course it wouldn't matter if you went off the BAR, a regular start ramp, or push started the timer would start the same for everyone.

If you don't want to use the BAR no one's going to laugh at you... Well Okay someone will laugh at you, but that guy's a dick. the rest of us will understand.

[Rick Stanziale]

#1:kids are more eager to embrace the sport when they see the gnar factor.when you reach the point where they have to accept that they can't skate through the course with their streetdecks,then you have achieved something-they start to respect what they see
#2 bars are a good way to catch the attention of the audience-they are stoked and also have respect for what they see
#3 the sport has to raise the bar as it has been done in the last years.bars definitely help to raise the bar again-waht a nice game of words.
#4 implemented properly for any course bars can really crank the whole level up.

#5 intentionally left blank
#6 big start ramps eliminate people who can't really ride skateboards

[Donald Campbell]

#1:kids are more eager to embrace the sport when they see the gnar factor.when you reach the point where they have to accept that they can't skate through the course with their streetdecks,then you have achieved something-they start to respect what they see
#2 bars are a good way to catch the attention of the audience-they are stoked and also have respect for what they see
#3 the sport has to raise the bar as it has been done in the last years.bars definitely help to raise the bar again-waht a nice game of words.
#4 implemented properly for any course bars can really crank the whole level up.

[Claude Regnier]

You don't really need big hills or big ramps to have a really good event. If the event is fun competitors will come and make the event better.

You wouldn't want to build a BAR ramp just because you are hardly racing on a hill. Yes big ramp, bid hills are narly but slalom is about ones ability to propel and move a skateboard through a set course faster then his or her competitor.

Most skaters agree that as long as it is not flat they will travel for it. It is easy to ruin a big hill or a small hill with course setting and then there is making it better then ever......

[T Whalen]

Following up on Rick's train of thought on the idea of portability, do these BARs provide an opportunity to open up areas with smaller hills with the ability to put on a higher level race?

I guess what I am really asking, is a BAR a mechanism to get races held in more areas and help grow the sport by providing more challenging racing even where good hills are sparse?

[Rick Floyd]

We should let Danny Way build us a start ramp.

Pumped to go off the TOBAR...

Too bad there isn't a way to make these things out of fiberglass and aluminum and make it so they break down completely and ship in a box. Please send two BARs, thank you.

[Neil Orta]

To be fair Neil, you are asking in an ISSA rules forum, not on the Sizzler thread

flipside of the coin?

Lou could have answered your question (like I tried to do), instead of being a punk.

Joe

Fair???
Asking a question about Sizzler ramps in a thread where they are being discussed?

OR

Not asking the question in a thread (Sizzler thread) where where Outlaws were asked by another Outlaw NOT to answer questions about the Sizzler?

I met Lou in NC and he is a great guy, I know he was being "a punk".......

Touche. and back at ya Lou...

See Ya'll in Texas!

[Joe Iacovelli]

To be fair Neil, you are asking in an ISSA rules forum, not on the Sizzler thread

flipside of the coin?

Lou could have answered your question (like I tried to do), instead of being a punk.

Joe

[Neil Orta]

Only on the tight. *

Cancel plane tickets- $200.00
Cancel rental car-$0
Cancel Hotel- $0

Avoid all hassles that have come with the lack of current information on the Sizzler......
Priceless

[Greg Stubbs]

I believe Lou meant to state COPYING as opposed to COPPING in his text. He was probably thinking about COPING or something as he was writing it, knowing him. It's going to be a really good roll-in. It's either that or one of those bungee sling-shot thing-a-majiggys.

[Joe Iacovelli]

Nice ramp

[Donald Campbell]

BARS at brixlegg
the BIG BOYZ use BARS at all the races.
why?
because they are BIG BOYZ

[Joe Iacovelli]

Neil,

I understand the BAR will be an option at the top of the GS hill.

Joe

[Lou Statman]

Only on the tight. *

[Neil Orta]

With talk of there being a BAR at Sizzler how and when will it be used?

[Rick Floyd]

Yeah Stubbs, you can also do it that way if everyone agrees that your time is your time no matter which ramp you go off (at least for single lane - in H2H you can't mix ramps)...and of course the ramps would have to be right next to each other. If I remember (no jokes please) the GS "B" class ramp start was further down the hill last year?

It would be tough to time with two different rams next to each other and no separate classes. Can you you have two start strips wired to the same finish? I have no idea on that one. You can run one ramp start class after the other is finished, but that could bring in variable like wind/temp that could skew results. Studd to consider anyway.

-R

[Greg Stubbs]

65 and sunny here in BIG D today, gang. Gonna be a beautiful time.

Let me assure everyone that anything built for any race in Texas will be sound, pragmatic and fun. The BAR Lou is building has a very gentle, sloping drop. 6' radius from 9' with a very comfortable roll-out to flat/racing surface. The construction of this BAR with a radius as such will allow all boards, including downhill boards, to roll in without fear of bottoming out. IMO, it does not matter to me what ramp you use, however you can get down the hill faster should be up to the individual. Does someone using a BAR have an advantage over someone not using a BAR? Maybe. I think it all depends on the rider. I think it's quite possible to have someone that did not use the BAR have a faster time than someone that did. Just my opinion...what ever rule is laid down I will abide.

[Chad Hegerty]

Rick, I think that is a good position. As someone who has ridden the DHB ramps the last two years, I can tell you that they are built so well that there is no feeling of out of control on them. As long as the ramps are posted before and are built solidly, as determined by the racers, they should be allowed. I do think that those that choose not to go off of the larger ramps should be placed below those that did.

If the majority of racers from the pro/A class would deem a ramp "unsafe" then that is where the line would be drawn. If the majority are not willing to risk themselves then the foolish should not be rewarded. If the majority or Pro/A class say it is good then run it or move down a class.

my 2 cents.

I am so ready for Texas. The snow just melted and now it is raining.

[Rick Floyd]

Big ramps are great - I love 'em all.

A note for racers interested in world ranking though - at least before this year, if a racer chooses not to go off the big ramp in a single race, then the highest they can finish "points wise" is the next position after the last big-ramp finisher.

-R

[Lou Statman]

Already been done... Remember the 60's and 70's

[Wesley Tucker]

I just wonder how long it's going to be before someone sets cones ON the ramps?

[Peter Metzger]

I posit that Cat Young rocks harder, but I don't want this whole thread to turn into a battle of high fives.

ANYWAY, I have a few thoughts rolling around in my head on this topic (the start ramps, not how rockin' Cat is):

1) It might be beneficial to retain the requirements for open or amateur class racing, as it will make sure that first-time racers are aware of what oversized ramps might be at the event. (That is, BAR's could still be used in these classes, but it would require mentioning on the sanctioning app and notifying racers). At the same time, this might introduce some unnecessary complication or someone calling technicalities if things aren't followed to the letter. Just a passing thought.

2) As Willy mentioned, having specs in the rulebook was useful in defining what a start ramp should generally look like. Perhaps they could be left in, but turned into suggestions rather than requirements?

3) Perhaps a minimum drop radius (or max angle if it's not a roll-in style) could still be useful in making sure nobody builds a ramp that's going to cause a normal slalom board to bottom out.

4) I can be a pansy when it comes to big ramps. There, I said it. :P

5) I do think that some modification of the existing rule set could be useful in aiding the progression of the sport.

[Cat Young]

Peter Metzger ROCKS!!!!!

[willy demis]

Yeah. I meant Indiana. Typed too many letters. Best as i recall it's up near South Bend, right?

Sister cities, yep! Notre Dame is on the north side of SB, and Mishawaka is on the east side of SB.

[Wesley Tucker]

Yeah. I meant Indiana. Typed too many letters. Best as i recall it's up near South Bend, right?

[willy demis]

just wondering. It's not in your profile and I was wondering where these ramps are. I do remember the race in Indianapolis.

Profile updated. The race was actually in Mishawaka, but that's off topic...

There was only one ramp built. It is now owned by Peter Metzger, who I believe is a member on here as well (he was the race organizer- I sold the ramp to him after the race.)

[Wesley Tucker]

just wondering. It's not in your profile and I was wondering where these ramps are. I do remember the race in Indianapolis.

[willy demis]

Willy,

Where are you?

Indianapolis, IN. Why?

Edit- or perhaps you meant what event? It was the Epic International Skate Fest last fall. It was a Prime event...

[Wesley Tucker]

Willy,

Where are you?

[willy demis]

I've always thought of rules being a guideline to those who are not completely familiar with our sport. Good, clear rules will help organizers do the right thing in an event and avoid some of the first-time errors that we've seen here and there. This provides for a much more appreciated event by all.

It would be good if this aspect could be taken into consideration as a secondary objective as rules are rewritten.

/Jani

I didn't see this before posting. This was exactly my point.

[willy demis]

My personal experience is that the current rules were very helpful in helping me define how a start ramp should be made. I copied off of Eric Brassard's design:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=3613

But having the rules specifically define the ramp (especially specifying the minimum radius) really helped me to ensure that my ramp was up to par- even though I had never even been to a slalom skateboarding event.

And this is why I comment on a thread that by all rights, I really don't belong in. The current rule spec defines a ramp that anyone with a decent know-how can build and ensure that the ramp will be well received at the event. Mine was...

My $0.02. Take it for what its worth.

[Lou Statman]

Genghis Khan didn't need no giant rollin to conquer China, but than again Genghis Khan was no Danny Way!

[Lou Statman]

Setting the new BAR. I've always been of the mindset that we can and should try to make those things that are good better. I rode the Thunder-dome at the Nationals in 2008 and The Big ramp at Dixie this past year. Two of my favorite races. and both very fun start ramps, but we are racers, we just can't settle for what we've got. I've been building and designing skate parks and ramps for most of the 35 years I've been skating. Change is good. Bigger = Better... That's debatable but Better is always welcome.

The (BAR) I'm building for the Sizzler will either be Fast, Fun, and "Safe", or I'll scrap the thing and go back to the drawing board. This ramp will be 9 feet tall with a 6 foot radius on the top and a 9 foot radius at the bottom. with a flat bank connecting the top and bottom sections creating a fast smooth ramp with the ability to be modified for each race.

If you can make it to the race you will enjoy it. If not you will miss it.