AM/Open or PRO

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:48 pm

I questioned that a while ago already but with the recent thread in Grüningen, I would like to open the discussion once again, we did not come to a conclusion anyway as I remember, or did we?

Anyway,

Who should race in the Am Class, who in the Pro?

Who is to decide who races where? Should it be up to the competitor himself solely or the organizer? What if a really good racer decides to ride in the AM class? Shoud be be forced to switch to Pro?

Once a Pro, always a Pro?

Martin Siegrist · Post by **Martin Siegrist** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:55 pm

I won the AM tight slalom in Grüningen last year. I think that I have to compete in the PRO class this year...

William Tway · Post by **William Tway** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:02 pm

The race organizer should always set the standards.

Regarding Pro/Am.

I feel the best way to decided who races in what class is by their qualifying times. The top 16 times should race pro and the next 16 should race Am regardless of how many races a rider has won. We arn't getting any younger.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:53 pm

What Tway suggested makes sense.

One qualifying course and different race courses, right? Or everyone qualifies on the Open course?

William Tway · Post by **William Tway** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:45 pm

One Size Fits All?

At least at the farm, TK does his best to set a course that is very difficult for fast racers (pros) and makeable for open riders. Racers qualify on both the GS and TS courses alike. In my brief history of slalom racing, all the courses I have raced have been the same for Pros and Ams. Unfortunately, time is always a factor and it's always against the organizers so we do our best to accommodate everyone....which is pretty much impossible. Everyone has their course preferences… I for one enjoy super tight but most racers don't...so we have to compromise. Give and take. It sucks to see people get upset when a course is too easy or hard when it’s all about having fun. Slalom needs a ton of support if it's ever to make it into the masses which I have mixed feelings about. I like the club feel we have now but would also like to see this shit on Wide World of Sports someday instead of Curling. (No disrespect intended GBJ).

It doesn't make sense for everyone to quality on one open course.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:38 am

Again, it makes sense, Mr. Tway. I've seen a few examples of good PRO/OPEN comprimises. DC, The Farm and MS.
If pros have more speed on the start, they'll ride a totally different course...on the same course.

I think it's better for the World Cups and other Major Comps to have whatever they can fit depending on # of people, time limits and the weather.

Troy Smart · Post by **Troy Smart** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:52 am

I would like to see "Da Farm" race be just a race.
1st, 2nd, 3rd and on down the line.
No "A-Pro/B-Pro" bullshit.

At this time in slalom, most of us are newbies.
Slalom is growing somewhat.
There are a lot of "open" class racers that are faster than most "Pros".
Let "Da Farm" be a place where they can show it.
A major race that attracts major talent where open and pro class racers can race each other.
That should be "Da Farm" way.
Open and Pro class racers hand in hand. (que: "We've only just Begun" by the Carpenters).

Troy Smart · Post by **Troy Smart** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:54 am

I'm sorry.
Slightly off topic.

I do love that song though, and you do too, dammit.

William Tway · Post by **William Tway** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:12 am

I completely agree but unfortunately Da Farm is a single lane race.

A great place for Open riders to kick some Pro ass! Last year was epic.

DaFarm will always be just a race in the woods with a big party that follows. Nothing more.

Hope to see you there.

Joe Iacovelli · Post by **Joe Iacovelli** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:55 am

Don't forget free beer and oysters.

Will there be less drinking the night before?

Will Twang and Twig finally come to fisticuffs?

Will Sandy call imigration on Ilva?

Does anyone really believe Gilmour was taken out by a tree?

Can we ban the Canadians this year (seriously)?

Joe Iacovelli
Team Chigger

Jack Smith · Post by **Jack Smith** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:26 pm

Joe,

"Come out and see if racing for America's Cup points kills the vibe. "

Yep, that's why we developed it!

William Tway · Post by **William Tway** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:53 pm

"Will there be less drinking the night before?"

Hell No. It's my 40th B-D and we're all going to party like rock stars. No exceptions! WesE gets first shot on the beer-bong.

Jack, Trust me, Joe knows the Americas Cup is not going to kill the vibe.

Joe Iacovelli · Post by **Joe Iacovelli** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:29 pm

Jack,

I thought from the tenor of my post all would know that I was kidding. I can't tell you how excited I am about the series or about the fact that my home race, Da Farm! is in the series. It is a definite boost to what is already a "high spirits" event.

I'll delete my joke.

My family and I look forward to seeing you in Luna,

Joe

PS: I'm working with Dennis Conner on a new rigid sail and hull design to sneak up on that America's Cup.

Mike Cividino · Post by **Mike Cividino** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:56 pm

Ban the Canadians?.....come on Joe, I know you just want to be a few spots closer to the top...Dont worry, Rob, Claude and myself will all be there to make you wish you had banned us.....Canadians will be everwhere this year...just watch.

Jack Smith · Post by **Jack Smith** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:57 pm

My fault, Joe. Guess I'm still a bit gun shy. Looking forward to seeing you also.

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:13 pm

I know I'm often the odd man out on things like this, and at the same time I'm going to try to bring this topic back on subject.

I think that we should stop trying to re-write the definitions of the words "Pro" (or "Professional") and "Amateur".

An Amateur is a person who prefers, for any reason, to not race for money or substantially valuable prizes.

A Pro is a person who chooses to attempt to make some money back out of their racing efforts, either in winnings or through the marketing of themselves as a member of the sport's professional ranks. In truth, a REAL professional is someone who makes a substantial portion of their living out of the pursuit in which they claim to be professional. So, what that means is that there really are no professional slalom skateboarders, no matter what we call them ourselves. There is also a sense in many other sports that those who choose to be professionals, trading on the success or marketability of a sport, should also be relied upon more heavily to support that sport, whether that be in larger event entry fees, promotional appearances, charity support or teaching.

This'll seem silly at first, because, to some degree, it defies logic, but... being professional or amateur really has nothing to do with ability. Of course, it'd be stupid to actually attempt to be a professional at something if you sucked at it, but, in my opinion, being great at something does not and never should obligate an athlete to declare himself a professional.

Certainly times have changed, but there was once a time, not that long ago, when world-class amateur athletes were revered far and above their professional counterparts. In a certain case that was referred to as "The Olympic Ideal", and in other sports, certain amateurs are still revered as the greatest, most formidable and most reknowned competitors in the sport's history. There was a general sense that someone who competed as an amateur harbored a purer, more genuine love for a sport, than did someone who saw it also as a meal ticket.

So, relative to the topic, I think...

Professional should mean Professional

Amateur should mean Amateur and

Open should mean Open (to any)

I imagine there will always be sucky professionals, I hope there will always be great amateurs, and I wish slalom skateboard race organizers would use the word Open correctly.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:51 pm

I know we missuse the words Pro and Am. For me it is only to separate two groups of racers. Group A: The best and group B: the rest. It's just that calling them group A and B sounds... well, B.

I think people understand better the idea by using the words Pro and Am.

Some of the better Am's often do results that would go well in the Pro group. This is often because you want to win some Am competitions before you start competing as a Pro. Maybe even wanting to go for the World Am title. Soon enough the Am winners all go over to the Pro class. I don't think we have got a missuse of people staying in Am class just to win.

A bigger problem is when someone who has raced Pro want to back down. The saying is that "Once a Pro always a Pro". I personally don't think so. I think you should be able to select the group that best reflect your skill. This is sensible though and winners of Am may easily be looked upon as sandbaggers. Maybe everyone should be forced to openly declare if they want to run as Pro or Am before each season for each discipline.

William Tway · Post by **William Tway** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:03 am

Alrighty then. DaFarm will be an Open Event with an A/B Open classes.

After all, I'm just an amateur race organizer.

Long Live Bobby Jones.

Andy Bittner · Post by **Andy Bittner** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:34 am

Alright, Tway... you beat on curling, but picked up the semi-obscure (at least in these parts) golf reference.

...and while we're at it, let's contact all of the major English language dictionaries to inform them that we're re-defining the words "professional" and "amateur" to mean "good" and "somehow, not as good".

The way I see it is that, if barely-professional (by the REAL definition) athletes need to call themselves "pro", because "calling them group A and B sounds... well, B"... that seems pretty weak in and of itself. It's like building castles in the sand; you may feel like you've accomplished something, but it really doesn't mean that much and probably won't last. I think slalom skateboarding should worry about a professional class when it's a sport that can support a professional class. Until then, calling your/ourselves pros is just mental masturbation.

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:28 am

William Tway wrote:Alrighty then. DaFarm will be an Open Event

How can it be "open" when it's limited to 50 riders? ;-P

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:47 am

As I said I only see Pro and Am as 2 groups, the best and the rest. They are not Pro's or Am's in the real meaning. It is a good naming though when you only have two groups.

As seen this season and in the above post how long will we be able to stay with 2 groups? The day we get too many skaters wanting to compete in slalom competitions maybe we will start using a 3:rd group. Then the Pro/Am ideology doesn't work anymore. In all other sports having this problem I have never seen group A, group B a.s.o. I don't know for sure what they use in baseball, ice-hockey, football and soccer. Premiere league style, First division style, Series style, Tour style, Cup style or whatever.

Time will tell what will happen on the skateboard slalom scene. If this sport explodes (I'm dreaming) we will probably invent another system than the current one.

Will J · Post by **Will J** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:54 pm

i wish people would use the PROPER meanings of words while using them. Once a pro, ALWAYS a pro, or at least never an amatuer again( i have NEVER seen a pro boxer go AM again even though there are some AM boxers that could hang with the pro world champs).. If a pro falls off, and slows down, then he/she is just that, a slow pro.

if you want the best and the rest go with A class and B class

if you want pro's racing pro's and am's racing am's, go with PRO class and AM class and keep them seperated.

if you just don't care, go with OPEN (just don't limit the number of racers, b/c that is NOT open)

simple, yet effective..

K.I.S.S.

William Tway · Post by **William Tway** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:40 pm

In golf (for what it's worth) to qualify for the US Open....the rules state....

Entries are open to professional golfers and amateur golfers with up-to-date USGA Handicap Indexes not exceeding 1.4 under the Men's USGA Handicap System.

Entries are subject to rejection at any time (including during the Championship) by the USGA. The reason for rejection may include unbecoming conduct. (You got that Kenny)

So in theory, dafarm could be an open event with limited participants based on an Open qualifying system (or handicapping system) that is yet to be established. There would have to be regional races etc.......

Show me the money!!

How about this Wesley...DaFarm is an Open Invitational open to the first 50 racers who sign up...

Or

DaFarm is an Invitational inviting the first 50 racers that sign up to attend.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:06 am

Pro and Am is what we use. I think we all agree about the true meaning. But we don't use it according to the true meaning. Either we...

A. Start using it according to the true meaning.

B. Change the wording.

C. Continue as before not caring about the true meaning.

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:34 am

Sometimes being a pro means you'll travel a great distance ....but only if you think there is cash on the line.

I look at it this way. If the whole package is great and not too hard to get to- I'll go if there is no cash to compete for.

If something is missing in Venue (lame hill, bad surface, not so good course, no spectators, etc....) and the cost/difficulty to go for me is high, there should be cash to motivate me to go.

I think if there was cash to be won at Da' farm we would have something perhaps as a draw for those far away... I think there should be a separate cash purse from the charity .....strangely enough....you might be able to raise more for charity that way....or how about some cash prizes for the Kids class?

BTW...its not banning the Canadians- Joe..... its the Mexicans- Carasco's gonna love 'da farm.

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:08 pm

Just realized this topic was better for this post.

Andy Bittner, I agree with you. It's just that I'am more into the "I don't care what it stands for" it's just 2 skill level groups. I think most of us are. Otherwise we wouldn't have these 2 namings. In Europe this is new. There where never slalom competitions using Pro/Am before. There was only one "group" so there was no use putting a name to it. I think this Pro/Am was used mainly in the States. I always looked at it as if you where sponsorded you where Pro. If not you where Am. But what do I know. What was the American organizers definition?

This is according to the dictionaries...
Pro
1. A professional, especially in sports.
2. An expert in a field of endeavor.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Professional
1a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
1b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

You tell me what it means? The only thing I know is that definitions are never easy and clear. It's always depending of how you look at it, using dictionaries or not.

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AM/Open or PRO

AM/Open or PRO

One size fits all

Da Farm

American Cup

America's Cup

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Pro or Am