etienne as, i am lost in the middlewest of england right now, i can't participate... I ve got a nice flat ground just forward my accomodation...
but as i can't time myself (you know i am so lonely... loool) i just want to know When coneracing will sell the so much waited timer system for not many money?
thanks
gros bisoux a tout les slalomeurs francais, et specialemement les parigots et les cergyssois
THE TRAP
Moderators: Jonathan Harms, Robert Thiele
-
Mathias Puentedura
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:04 pm
- Location: Cergy-Pontoise Fr
- Contact:
-
Steve Michael
- azsuprasm
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 am
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
TheTrap UPDATE:
The Trap (currently recorded on NCDSA.com under "The Trap" forum) has been updated to allow for all three Trap distances: 44', 88' and 176'.
Eventually, one of these distances (88' or 176') will be used for Official Group Competitions, with riders taking 2-3 official "trys" each. But for now, "home" traps can be any of those three lengths.
The rules are also being updated to allow for ANY type of pump or push, up to and including The Trap area. Adam N. also programmed the MPH conversion into the entry table.
Since the racing "season" is still upon us, I'm sure more interest in The Trap will develop after Worlds in October, and prior to "next" season.
Have fun, go fast and give it a try! "How fast can you go on that thing?"
-=S=-
The Trap (currently recorded on NCDSA.com under "The Trap" forum) has been updated to allow for all three Trap distances: 44', 88' and 176'.
Eventually, one of these distances (88' or 176') will be used for Official Group Competitions, with riders taking 2-3 official "trys" each. But for now, "home" traps can be any of those three lengths.
The rules are also being updated to allow for ANY type of pump or push, up to and including The Trap area. Adam N. also programmed the MPH conversion into the entry table.
Since the racing "season" is still upon us, I'm sure more interest in The Trap will develop after Worlds in October, and prior to "next" season.
Have fun, go fast and give it a try! "How fast can you go on that thing?"
-=S=-
-
Steve Michael
- azsuprasm
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 am
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
-
Etienne de Bary
- Etienne
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
- Contact:
This is 20 cones for 40 cones Riderz.net metric cyberslalom a barebone cyberslalom that i suggest you:Steve Michael wrote:20 cones vs. 25 on the CyberSlalom course is a fundamental change on the course and the competition, and you would have deserved your beatings.
http://riderz.net/viewtopic.php?t=2918
-
Steve Michael
- azsuprasm
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 am
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
20 cones vs. 25 on the CyberSlalom course is a fundamental change on the course and the competition, and you would have deserved your beatings. IMO.I remember terrible bashings when i proposed to enter a cyberslalom time set on 20 cones at my first attempt (as of course i go faster on the 20 last cones that was fair), but everybody thought it was kind of cheating...
Running 44', 88' or 176' does not change the viability or the strategy of running The Trap. Once more, individuals can post their times to a central location (on NCDSA, for now), as long as they convert their times to the current standard...which is 88' for now. No cones in The Trap...just speed, anyway you wish to generate it.
-=S=-
-
Etienne de Bary
- Etienne
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
- Contact:
-
Mathias Puentedura
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:04 pm
- Location: Cergy-Pontoise Fr
- Contact:
-
Steve Michael
- azsuprasm
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 am
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Etienne: You are correct on every point. Hand timed, the 176' distance makes the most sense...for accuracy and ease of use. Those folks who have access to a better timing system (or at official competitions) may prefer the shorter 88'. Those who have tried both Trap lengths (to date about 10 of us) have mixed feelings as to which to use.
Pat C.: Good to see you here, too! Sorry I missed H.R. this year.
I dig what you're sayin', too. "The Trap" results (on the other site) have not yet been updated for the revised rules, but as it stands right now, all POSTED trys can be done over either the 88' or 176' Trap Length (I'm going to refrain from calling The Trap a "course"...in reality, The Trap is only the END of the course!
At the beginning, I was in favor of the shortest Trap possible, and 44' looked good. Michael Dong ran some 44' Traps, too. I now believe that it's just too short for record trys. Of course I'm NOT going to discourage folks who run 44' Traps from posting their times x 2.
However, I'm convinced that for official observed RECORD trys, a single standard MUST be upheld. I can't go into too many details, but there may be a place in a certain "Book" published by a certain "Brewer" that such records can be published. Because of the lack of "standardization" for the 100-cone challenge, each one of the times can be questioned and scrutinized because of what you said about the different pitches of the slopes.
Remember the old "Long Jump" back in the 70's? There were many discussions on exactly what constituted how big the barrels should be before they finally decided on 1' dia. foam barrels.
Here's what we're trying to work through:
176'
+Runs of 4.5-7.0 seconds
+Easy to time
+Easy to calculate MPH = 120/secs.
+it's only 2' longer than the start/finish lines of the CyberSlalom course.
+there's a little more room for additional accelleration; more forgiving.
- May be too long
- May favor the stronger skater
88'
+Runs of 2.25-3.5 seconds
+Easy to calculate MPH = 60/secs.
+Shorter trap means a more accurate picture of Maximum speed
+still long enough to time with conventional methods
- works better with electronic timing (tape or beam system)
- Less room for mistakes (you gotta hit The Trap at JUST the right time!)
- Less area for a group (or audience) to view the action.
- Time differences are much closer
- Even with electronic timing, shorter Traps = more room for error.
44'
- MUST hit The Trap at the exact maximum velocity;
- VERY little room for error
- NOT suitable for hand-timing (runs of just over one second!)
How 'bout this: you can skate ANY of The Trap distances now utilized:
44', 88' or 176'.
...but when entering your raw TIMES to the group, POST the 88' equivalent! 44'secs X 2, 88'secs or 176'secs X .5
Apples to Apples?
The "Official" Trap distance will continue to be debated until I have drawn the best consensus with the information I have. Expect it to be either 176' or 88'.
Until then....SKATE FAST.
-=S=-
Pat C.: Good to see you here, too! Sorry I missed H.R. this year.
I dig what you're sayin', too. "The Trap" results (on the other site) have not yet been updated for the revised rules, but as it stands right now, all POSTED trys can be done over either the 88' or 176' Trap Length (I'm going to refrain from calling The Trap a "course"...in reality, The Trap is only the END of the course!
At the beginning, I was in favor of the shortest Trap possible, and 44' looked good. Michael Dong ran some 44' Traps, too. I now believe that it's just too short for record trys. Of course I'm NOT going to discourage folks who run 44' Traps from posting their times x 2.
However, I'm convinced that for official observed RECORD trys, a single standard MUST be upheld. I can't go into too many details, but there may be a place in a certain "Book" published by a certain "Brewer" that such records can be published. Because of the lack of "standardization" for the 100-cone challenge, each one of the times can be questioned and scrutinized because of what you said about the different pitches of the slopes.
Remember the old "Long Jump" back in the 70's? There were many discussions on exactly what constituted how big the barrels should be before they finally decided on 1' dia. foam barrels.
Here's what we're trying to work through:
176'
+Runs of 4.5-7.0 seconds
+Easy to time
+Easy to calculate MPH = 120/secs.
+it's only 2' longer than the start/finish lines of the CyberSlalom course.
+there's a little more room for additional accelleration; more forgiving.
- May be too long
- May favor the stronger skater
88'
+Runs of 2.25-3.5 seconds
+Easy to calculate MPH = 60/secs.
+Shorter trap means a more accurate picture of Maximum speed
+still long enough to time with conventional methods
- works better with electronic timing (tape or beam system)
- Less room for mistakes (you gotta hit The Trap at JUST the right time!)
- Less area for a group (or audience) to view the action.
- Time differences are much closer
- Even with electronic timing, shorter Traps = more room for error.
44'
- MUST hit The Trap at the exact maximum velocity;
- VERY little room for error
- NOT suitable for hand-timing (runs of just over one second!)
How 'bout this: you can skate ANY of The Trap distances now utilized:
44', 88' or 176'.
...but when entering your raw TIMES to the group, POST the 88' equivalent! 44'secs X 2, 88'secs or 176'secs X .5
Apples to Apples?
The "Official" Trap distance will continue to be debated until I have drawn the best consensus with the information I have. Expect it to be either 176' or 88'.
Until then....SKATE FAST.
-=S=-
-
Etienne de Bary
- Etienne
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:00 am
- Contact:
-
Pat Chewning
- Pat C.
- Posts: 1400
- Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:00 am
- Location: Portland Oregon
Why does there need to be only ONE trap distance?
If the goal is to see how fast you can go, why not accept speeds over all three course distances? Some people will have access to long courses and hand timing, some will have access to shorter courses and more precise timing. All of them are valid: the racer DID go THAT fast on THAT course.
A parallel can be drawn to the 100-cone record. The 100 cones need to be in a straight line. But the pitch of the hill and the spacing of the cones can be adjusted to try to optimize the speed through the course.
-- Pat
A parallel can be drawn to the 100-cone record. The 100 cones need to be in a straight line. But the pitch of the hill and the spacing of the cones can be adjusted to try to optimize the speed through the course.
-- Pat
-
Steve Michael
- azsuprasm
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 am
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Tom, there are many things that make a skateboarder successful at slalom, and the ability to generate and control speed are two of those things. Having a good start, whether pushing or from a ramp. Foot position, weight distribution, equiptment, confidence, luck...and knowing how fast you can go and not fall on your ass.
"The Trap" is merely one small part of slalom and downhill or longboard skateboarding. My intentions are to answer a question that up until now hasn't been addressed are genuine. Adam (and now Jack) offer a place where we can discuss things related to our sport.
I'm not saying that "The Trap" is or will be anything that it's not. But it certaintly belongs on a website where slalom skaters visit to talk about a variety of topics, and improve some or all of their skills. This is one tiny bit of slalomskateboarder.com. You're welcome to give it a try as it is or ignore it as drivel. All good in my book.
-=S=-, running cones in the picture on the left.
"The Trap" is merely one small part of slalom and downhill or longboard skateboarding. My intentions are to answer a question that up until now hasn't been addressed are genuine. Adam (and now Jack) offer a place where we can discuss things related to our sport.
I'm not saying that "The Trap" is or will be anything that it's not. But it certaintly belongs on a website where slalom skaters visit to talk about a variety of topics, and improve some or all of their skills. This is one tiny bit of slalomskateboarder.com. You're welcome to give it a try as it is or ignore it as drivel. All good in my book.
-=S=-, running cones in the picture on the left.
-
Tom Thompson
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:00 am
- Location: Dublin, GA.
-
Steve Michael
- azsuprasm
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 am
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
The Trap...discussion.
Hehe...YEAH. I already got some opinions...Good!
Jackie-Q: Adam N. was only able to put up the preliminary Trap stuff, and did so prior to real-life testing. I agree that a shorter Trap has the possibility to measure your absolute fastest speed...and to that end, I thought that 44' would be the best measure. But I also realize that Timing is Everything! And it's much, MUCH easier to self-time or use a simple stopwatch to get a time on either an 88' or 176' distance. The revised "The Trap" database will use either of the 88' or 176' distances for now, but you can bet that one distance will win out over the other. I'm leaning toward 88', but CC and CY seem to like the 176' distance, and they've both had the chance to run Traps at full speed.
I'm going to be inundated with those in the 44' or shorter camp and those in the 176' or longer school!
Having a 'significant' Trap distance (88-176') equates well to other officially-recognized world records. All speed records set at the Bonneville Salt Flats are over a specified distance, or "speed trap". Yes, an instantaneous radar or laser gun reading may give us this, but those would be inaccurate...and expensive...for our purposes. Both 88' and 176' are long enough for hand-timing.
As far as having a hard time finding a flat spot that's 176' long...sorry! THIS contest not only requires that The Trap be flat, but ALSO the approach in it's entirety.
WesE: Would approach distance make a difference? Sure it would! But the point is not to see who can go the fastest in 100 yards or 30 feet or one kilometer. It's to see who can go THE FASTEST. Period. Using NO HILLS.
THE TRICK is to know just how far YOU need to go to get up to MAXIMUM VELOCITY, and to be able to HOLD it THROUGH 'The Trap'.
-Hit 'The Trap' too soon and get a slower time.
-Hit 'The Trap' too late and peter-out before you get through it.
There's a LOT of finesse to this.
The rules are SIMPLE;
No minimum approach.
No maximum approach.
There is no "Start line".
You can push or pump up-to and even through The Trap if you want,
but it must be on YOUR OWN POWER.
You can use ANY kind of solid skateboard with four wheels.
The attempt must NOT utilize either wind or slope.
You may NOT utilize any type of skateboard that uses gear-driven mechanisms.
Only you and The Trap...and lots of flat pavement.
Many will try to "beat the system", and that will be the fun of it...to see who's method (within the rules) is faster. In order for international records to be recognized, this must be by any means and over any distance. Like high-jumping scissors-style or via the Fosbury Flop.
Of course, other types of speed contests can be designed:
Banked Oval Racing,
Basketball court Racing (we did this in High School...ouch),
Limited distance speed,
Longer or shorter speed traps,
Pure Pumping Prowess (Dan G's favorite!),
Pure Pushing Power....
Tom, this was never intended on being JUST a pumping contest. I'll let others design their own pumping-only contests
THIS event is to find out "Just how fast can I go on this thing under my own power?"
-=S=-
Jackie-Q: Adam N. was only able to put up the preliminary Trap stuff, and did so prior to real-life testing. I agree that a shorter Trap has the possibility to measure your absolute fastest speed...and to that end, I thought that 44' would be the best measure. But I also realize that Timing is Everything! And it's much, MUCH easier to self-time or use a simple stopwatch to get a time on either an 88' or 176' distance. The revised "The Trap" database will use either of the 88' or 176' distances for now, but you can bet that one distance will win out over the other. I'm leaning toward 88', but CC and CY seem to like the 176' distance, and they've both had the chance to run Traps at full speed.
I'm going to be inundated with those in the 44' or shorter camp and those in the 176' or longer school!
Having a 'significant' Trap distance (88-176') equates well to other officially-recognized world records. All speed records set at the Bonneville Salt Flats are over a specified distance, or "speed trap". Yes, an instantaneous radar or laser gun reading may give us this, but those would be inaccurate...and expensive...for our purposes. Both 88' and 176' are long enough for hand-timing.
As far as having a hard time finding a flat spot that's 176' long...sorry! THIS contest not only requires that The Trap be flat, but ALSO the approach in it's entirety.
WesE: Would approach distance make a difference? Sure it would! But the point is not to see who can go the fastest in 100 yards or 30 feet or one kilometer. It's to see who can go THE FASTEST. Period. Using NO HILLS.
THE TRICK is to know just how far YOU need to go to get up to MAXIMUM VELOCITY, and to be able to HOLD it THROUGH 'The Trap'.
-Hit 'The Trap' too soon and get a slower time.
-Hit 'The Trap' too late and peter-out before you get through it.
There's a LOT of finesse to this.
The rules are SIMPLE;
No minimum approach.
No maximum approach.
There is no "Start line".
You can push or pump up-to and even through The Trap if you want,
but it must be on YOUR OWN POWER.
You can use ANY kind of solid skateboard with four wheels.
The attempt must NOT utilize either wind or slope.
You may NOT utilize any type of skateboard that uses gear-driven mechanisms.
Only you and The Trap...and lots of flat pavement.
Many will try to "beat the system", and that will be the fun of it...to see who's method (within the rules) is faster. In order for international records to be recognized, this must be by any means and over any distance. Like high-jumping scissors-style or via the Fosbury Flop.
Of course, other types of speed contests can be designed:
Banked Oval Racing,
Basketball court Racing (we did this in High School...ouch),
Limited distance speed,
Longer or shorter speed traps,
Pure Pumping Prowess (Dan G's favorite!),
Pure Pushing Power....
Tom, this was never intended on being JUST a pumping contest. I'll let others design their own pumping-only contests
THIS event is to find out "Just how fast can I go on this thing under my own power?"
-=S=-
-
Tom Thompson
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:00 am
- Location: Dublin, GA.
2 push(only) start
Steve - I like your concept with one exception; I think it should remain a 2 push(max) start. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original concept to determine how fast you could propel your skateboard on a flat surface via PUMPING? And I agree with Wes about coming up with a set start distance. Say maybe an 88' start and an 88' speed trap....
-
Wes Eastridge
- WesE
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 2:00 am
- Location: northern Virginia, suburb of DC, USA
Wouldn’t the approach distance make a difference? I think it would. There should be a specified distance, otherwise someone would use this loophole to their advantage (like choosing a spot that has hills at either end). There should be something like a backstop that goes 3 or 4 feet behind the start strip.
Join Folding@Home for the good of humankind, or at least for your loved ones (whatever species they may be). It's easy, free and fun, too!
-
Jack Quarantillo
- Posts: 428
- Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:15 am
- Location: G'burg, MD, USA
- Contact:
-
Steve Michael
- azsuprasm
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 am
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
THE TRAP
A standard is being created that will (hopefully) allow all skateboarders to find out:
Just how fast can I go on this skateboard under my own power?
It's called The Trap, and it's very simple.
On a FLAT SURFACE (run in both directions so as to negate any wind or slope benefit), Go AS FAST AS YOU CAN.
Use Any means possible (pumping or pushing).
Use as much or as little approach distance as you want.
Pass through "The Trap" and register your time in seconds, preferrably out to three or four decimal places.
The Trap will be either 176 feet long or 88 feet long. ONE OF THESE DISTANCES will be standardized over the following months so that one unified standard can be agreed upon Spring of 2005.
You may push through The Trap.
You may pump through The Trap.
You can skog, flail, expell methane, smoke, scream or hand-paddle;
both up to AND THROUGH The Trap.
For the 176' course: MPH = 120/secs.
For the 88' course: MPH = 60/secs.
Results are currently being recorded on the "other" site: www.ncdsa.com
under "The Trap" heading.
Please post your comments either HERE, or on the Pumping forum on NCDSA...I support BOTH sites.
-=S=-, Father of "The Trap"...or TrapDaddy, if you prefer.
Just how fast can I go on this skateboard under my own power?
It's called The Trap, and it's very simple.
On a FLAT SURFACE (run in both directions so as to negate any wind or slope benefit), Go AS FAST AS YOU CAN.
Use Any means possible (pumping or pushing).
Use as much or as little approach distance as you want.
Pass through "The Trap" and register your time in seconds, preferrably out to three or four decimal places.
The Trap will be either 176 feet long or 88 feet long. ONE OF THESE DISTANCES will be standardized over the following months so that one unified standard can be agreed upon Spring of 2005.
You may push through The Trap.
You may pump through The Trap.
You can skog, flail, expell methane, smoke, scream or hand-paddle;
both up to AND THROUGH The Trap.
For the 176' course: MPH = 120/secs.
For the 88' course: MPH = 60/secs.
Results are currently being recorded on the "other" site: www.ncdsa.com
under "The Trap" heading.
Please post your comments either HERE, or on the Pumping forum on NCDSA...I support BOTH sites.
-=S=-, Father of "The Trap"...or TrapDaddy, if you prefer.