SPSR- 4. DISQUALIFICATION

general rules, special-tight-giant rules

Moderators: Jonathan Harms, Robert Thiele

Locked

Do we need this rule ?

yes
13
93%
no
1
7%
 
Total votes: 14

Jadranko Radovanovic
Posts: 539
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:40 pm
Location: Grüningen
Contact:

SPSR- 4. DISQUALIFICATION

Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:48 pm

4. DISQUALIFICATION

4.1 A skater is disqualified in this run:

a) if he missing a cone
b) if he touches the ground with a foot between the start and the finish line.
c) if he does not pass the finish line
d) after he makes three false starts

A skater could also be disqualified from the race for anti-sporting behaviour.

4.2 If a skater is disqualified in one run he should still make his second run as the winner of the first run could still be disqualified and then each skater will have one run each and the best time shall count.

Carsten Pingel
Carsten Pingel
Carsten Pingel
Posts: 489
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:54 pm

Post by Carsten Pingel » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:18 am

not 2 false starts ??

please define anti-sporting behavior ?

Jani Soderhall
ISSA President 2011-2020
ISSA President 2011-2020
Posts: 4207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Sweden, lives in France
Contact:

Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:27 pm

Carsten Pingel wrote:not 2 false starts ??
Good proposal. That's what everybody uses nowadays. Three would really be too much.

Carsten Pingel wrote:please define anti-sporting behavior ?
I have several good examples, but it's a bit tricky to bring them up without offending the persons involved. The judgement here is up to the organizers, but I think we definitely need to keep this phrase.

/Jani

David Rudnianski
LTC
LTC
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:17 pm
Location: Paris/ France
Contact:

Post by David Rudnianski » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:03 pm

Carsten Pingel wrote:not 2 false starts ??
Per run or on the whole course?
French Pirates are in the place...
www.riderz.net
http://pirateslalom.online.fr/
Politic Longboard Activist...

Vincent Berruchon
Vinzzzzz
Vinzzzzz
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri May 30, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Paris, France
Contact:

Post by Vincent Berruchon » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:35 pm

2 max starts Per run
you have two runs in a round (so you are clean again when you change line with your opponent)

Perhaps you should also precise that if you have reaction times, when two racers do false start, the false start is attributed to the one who start first
(because the second probably just follow the first one - false start attributed to the one with the biggest negative reaction time).
[ www.pavel-skates.com ] [ www.riderz.net ]
"Dont care what the World say - I and I could a never go astray -Well wee gona have Things our Way" - Robert Nesta Marley

Vincent Berruchon
Vinzzzzz
Vinzzzzz
Posts: 575
Joined: Fri May 30, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Paris, France
Contact:

Post by Vincent Berruchon » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:38 pm

Carsten Pingel wrote: please define anti-sporting behavior ?
You can define it a bit, but the most important is to say WHO will decide taht there is an anti-sporting behavior.
-> " jury committee" ? or at least race director ("Directeur de course" in french) on complains
[ www.pavel-skates.com ] [ www.riderz.net ]
"Dont care what the World say - I and I could a never go astray -Well wee gona have Things our Way" - Robert Nesta Marley

Carsten Pingel
Carsten Pingel
Carsten Pingel
Posts: 489
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:54 pm

Post by Carsten Pingel » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:10 pm

I think "anti sporting behavior" can have several descriptions ! Someone sees spitting on the ground as an anti sporting behavior, someone else sees criddeling as an anti sporting behavior ?!

I would not set it as an official rule due to different points of view.

Everybody who races a race should be aware of "anti sporting behavior"! I think the "Head Judge" for that should be the race director/ organisator !

Steve Collins
Harbor Skateboard Racing
Harbor Skateboard Racing
Posts: 358
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:00 am
Location: Los Angeles

Post by Steve Collins » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:09 pm

I would add:

The race organizers may decide to give a false start penalty rather than have false starts lead to disqualification.

The race organizers may decide that a certain number of cones hit also will lead to disqualification. A rule of thumb may be >10% or >15% of the total cones.

Claude Regnier
Claude Regnier
Claude Regnier
Posts: 1190
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Cornwall, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

False starts.

Post by Claude Regnier » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:26 pm

False starts should be penalized using the double the false start time penalty. For those not familiar with the system this is what happens.

Racer A false starts by .004 his penalty is doubled to .008. Dosen't sound like much but it was a minimal false start.

Say racer 1 false starts by.01 and racer 2 false start .005 thay are both penalized without delays.

Racing goes on.


. This system is nice, quick, simple and easy to understand:

1- automatically added into the spreadsheet calcualtions.
2 - causes no delays in the running of the event.
3 - spectators get bored with delays.
4 - it sometimes takes a long time to get the racers restarted again.
5 - Imagine if every second race had to be restarted because of false start through the course of false start in all divisions and cetegories. It would be ugly, long and very boring for everyone.
Last edited by Claude Regnier on Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Many Happy Pumps!

Wesley Tucker
1961-2013 (RIP)
1961-2013 (RIP)
Posts: 3279
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am

Re: SPSR- 4. DISQUALIFICATION

Post by Wesley Tucker » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:41 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:4. DISQUALIFICATION

A skater could also be disqualified from the race for anti-sporting behaviour.
Who is to judge what is and is not anti-sporting behavior?
What are the criteria for anti-sporting behavior?

A simple "I know it when I see it" doesn't really do it for me. This sort of thing can lead to really hairy circumstances.
Image

Jack Smith
Morro Bay Skatemuseum
Morro Bay Skatemuseum
Posts: 736
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Morro Bay, California
Contact:

Post by Jack Smith » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:09 pm

I agree with Claude on using the false start penalty system.

Donald Campbell
Pavel
Pavel
Posts: 2036
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:49 pm
Location: germany
Contact:

Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:01 pm

anti-whatever behaviour?

are you really serious about that?
i never even imagined such an odd rule.
if you try to enfore that certain rule,which is open to interpretation in some cases by the people who enfore this rule you surely also know that enforcing this rule can cause lots of trouble at any racetrack in the world.kick an american out of the race-you know what happens,we can continue this withe each other country or team perse.
forget about that now

Heiko Schöller
Heiko
Heiko
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:58 pm
Location: Köln-Germany
Contact:

Post by Heiko Schöller » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:31 am

"anti sporting behavior" YES we need that.

Cigarettes or Beer on the racetrack no skating
colored hair oh my good
pants with holes in it where are we living?
no party the whole raceweekend, serious sportsmen don´t need that they go there for the competition and not for the fun of it.
WWW.CONCRETEWAVE.DE
100% Skateshop and no fucking fashion store. GOG homebase.
WWW.PAVEL-SKATES.COM
Pavel über alles
ASSA = Anti Skateboard Slalom Association

Kevin Dunne
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:08 am
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Contact:

Post by Kevin Dunne » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:57 am

Bad idea...Next thing you know, we'll be disqualifying somebody for showing his ass at the awards ceremony!

Patrick Allan
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Paris

Post by Patrick Allan » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:58 pm

I would also agree on Claude's proposition for false starts...

and about the "anti sporting behaviour" rule, I think it might not be such a bad idea after all as I doubt that it will ever really be used (between the top of the course and the finish line there isn't exactly a lot of time to act "anti sportsmanly"...), and it would probably act as a guideline or a symbolical rule more than anything else that would simply show that we are all good sportsmen.

However the way it's put now is a little sketchy and I agree that you still need to define "anti sporting" a little. The way I would see it, it would be a behaviour that would go against the "spirit of the sport" and that would disturb the progress of a race or a competition. And obviously that can't honestly include beer, cigarettes or mooning the crowds... This is still skateboarding...

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have an "anti sportsmen dq rule" but it might be kind of useless as I've never seen anybody up until now do anything "anti sporting" during a race and still have a little trouble imagining what that really could be... Do you have any examples J rad?

Pat Chewning
Pat C.
Pat C.
Posts: 1400
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Portland Oregon

Anti-sporting behavior

Post by Pat Chewning » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:59 pm

Yes, we need the anti-sporting behavior rule.

I suggest we start with one you are all familiar with: FIFA rule12 (Americans: this is soccer):
============================================

A player is cautioned and shown the yellow card if he commits any of the following seven offences:

1. is guilty of unsporting behaviour
2. shows dissent by word or action
3. persistently infringes the Laws of the Game
4. delays the restart of play
5. fails to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a corner kick, free kick or throw-in
6. enters or re-enters the field of play without the referee’s permission
7. deliberately leaves the field of play without the referee’s permission.

A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off and shown the red card if he commits any of the following seven offences:

1. is guilty of serious foul play
2. is guilty of violent conduct
3. spits at an opponent or any other person
4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
7. receives a second caution in the same match.


==============================================

Now let's modify this for skateboard racing:

A racer is disqualified for a single run if he commits any of the following offenses:
1) Displaces more cones than the "DQ" threshold for # of cones to be displaced.
2) Fails to negotiate the course properly. (Clear each cone on the proper side, or alternatively, displace that cone.)
3) Fails to go through the finish line.
4) Places a foot down on the course during a run.

A racer is ejected from the competition and forfeits all runs if he commits any of the following offenses:
1) Is guilty of violent conduct. (Against any person or object present at the event).
2) Is guilty of serious foul play. (Examples may include: Tampering with a competitor's equipment, interfering with a competitor's run, etc.)
3) Delays the progress of the competition through excessive and belligerent protests or complaining.

==================================================

YES: the person who is charged with enforcing the rules has quite a bit of discretion to determine what is "violent" "foul" "excessive" etc. But that is no different than the referee at the football match, or the police who enforce traffic rules.

Donald Campbell
Pavel
Pavel
Posts: 2036
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:49 pm
Location: germany
Contact:

Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:39 pm

anti-sporting behaviour:
please read this...
my experience with such a rule is from the past when germany had the"rollsportbund"organization in the early eighties.
before i tell the story i have to add that this certain organization had been boycotted by all skaters during the german championships in the late 80's and since then doesn't have any more weight or influence in decisions or events in the modern skateboarding world of germany.
it is nonexistant to say so.

anti-sporting behaviour was a rule they also gladly enforced.you got dqued or penalties for being non-conform to the image of a skater they themselves crafted.
my experience in 1979:slalom german championships=fastest time of the day but long hair and wrong(skater) clothing=7th place instead of first place.
two years later the same happened to me at a freestyle contest.i was punk at that time and-again-i got a lower placing.
my resumee of those events was to quit competitive skateboarding.
pat:soccer is not skateboarding-sorry.

we should forget this rule


on a side note:the dom story from the dixie could be a good example for excessive use of such a rule,if it would have been existent then and being enforced too.but... if somebody here would dq him for example,or take away his rightfully earned podium due to his butt hanging out there in the open air he would
#1 have me immediately confront him for doing so and i wouldn't be friendly then
#2 have the whole team backing his rider the same way
#3 have other skaters against him too.

finally the event would be completely destroyed due to a very bad mood overshadowing the event.

this is definitely not what we want.
just imagine you would try to enforce this rule on a grown-up skater.there are some guys out there,who are not the easiest to handle anyway-what would happen then?
of course you can ban these guys/teams maybe also from contests,but do you really want all this to happen?

i know that the tale is now a bit farspun,but this is a rule,which is so ridiculous,that i really have problems considering this rule at all.

do the sport a favor and forget about this thing very very fast

Claude Regnier
Claude Regnier
Claude Regnier
Posts: 1190
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Cornwall, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Call it what you want?

Post by Claude Regnier » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:09 pm

Bottom line is there needs to be a code of conduct Donald.

Respect: 1. the people you represent
2. the contest, the sport
3. the organizers
4. your teammates & sponsors
5. yourself

Take a look at the Ex Games and such. There are a lot of politics playing into how the players conduct themselves. You can that some people are not invited for certain reasons.

I've removed plenty of skaters from contests over the years over the years for a variety of reasons.

We cannot allow it to be open ended.

Let's take the Arab/Chaput at La Costa fight for example.

They were both told to leave. I believe.
Many Happy Pumps!

Donald Campbell
Pavel
Pavel
Posts: 2036
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:49 pm
Location: germany
Contact:

Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:31 pm

the a/c incident is the only one known to me
when you talk about contests,are the slalom contests the ones you refer to?
i think the slalom scene differs a lot from other scenes.

again:i find this ridiculous and it will also be impossible to set up-if so-rules which are not bendable and interpretable to the liking of the organizer.

til now,as far as i am able to recall the events i visited,i didn't see a necessity for this kind of discussion.

Wesley Tucker
1961-2013 (RIP)
1961-2013 (RIP)
Posts: 3279
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:51 pm

Well, the vote is overwhelmingly "yes," so there ya' go.

Or do nine votes two days after the polling starts really matter?
Image

Ramón Königshausen
Airflow - Skateboards
Airflow - Skateboards
Posts: 1485
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Contact:

Post by Ramón Königshausen » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:38 am

Maybe 9 people can represent the whole slalom scene. - That would be awesome! :-)

rmn
Feel the flow – Airflow Skateboards

Real skateboard wheels come in green – ABEC11

Enjoy the ride – GOG Slalom & DH Trucks

Jani Soderhall
ISSA President 2011-2020
ISSA President 2011-2020
Posts: 4207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Sweden, lives in France
Contact:

Post by Jani Soderhall » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:32 am

The organizer obviously should have the right to act in a manner that is correct to defend his event. If rules have been set up for the event and a skater does not follow these rules it's obvious that the organizer must have the right to act as is necessary. Of course, using his judgement as to whether a DQ is an appropriate action.

But:
If the skater in question is really strong and has a leather jacket, the rule does not apply. Of course.


I remember an incident in Brixlegg this summer when Donald the wanted to impose exactly this rule, he was very angry and the DQ had basically already been given out when finally he decided to call the participating skaters to a vote. All the skaters voted to let the incident pass and Donald accepted the majority vote. As far as I can imagine, the only "Rule" Donald could have applied here is the anti-sporting behaviour. The person in question was taking unfair advantage of the situation by running more than 2 trial runs (when Donald had announced that only two trial runs were allowed) - one example of anti-sporting behaviour, at least in Donald's mind, and with all right - he was the organizer.

This is not a rule against long hair, or even the color of the hair, but it is against any unspecified behaviour that the organizers sees unfit for the event. Let the organizer decide. If incorrect decisions are made, you an always choose to boycott the event the next time around.

/Jani
Last edited by Jani Soderhall on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Donald Campbell
Pavel
Pavel
Posts: 2036
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:49 pm
Location: germany
Contact:

Post by Donald Campbell » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:42 am

but the rule has to be eforced-if necessary-in a very careful way.
the rider in brixlegg was a girl,and she even insulted me in her native language,but in the end i bowed to the riders' decision.

Jani Soderhall
ISSA President 2011-2020
ISSA President 2011-2020
Posts: 4207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Sweden, lives in France
Contact:

Post by Jani Soderhall » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:49 am

Donald Campbell wrote:...and she even insulted me in her native language...
I thought we're all sooooo cool and can accept seeing cool guys asses in any place. But insults in native language and from a girl, Ooouch!

/Jani

Donald Campbell
Pavel
Pavel
Posts: 2036
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:49 pm
Location: germany
Contact:

Post by Donald Campbell » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:02 pm

it's good to see the sun go up sometimes!

Marty Schaub
Old LaCosta Boy
Old LaCosta Boy
Posts: 523
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:43 pm
Location: Dacula, JoJa

HMMM....

Post by Marty Schaub » Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:09 pm

OK, so something happens at a race that I feel I got screwed on. I protest. The promoter/starter/timer wants to press on and does nothing. I can be thrown out for wanting to press my objections based solely on someone's opinion?

WOW.
La Costa Boy For Life

Jani Soderhall
ISSA President 2011-2020
ISSA President 2011-2020
Posts: 4207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Sweden, lives in France
Contact:

Post by Jani Soderhall » Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:28 pm

11 Yes
1 No

Hmm, interesting...
As Donald has changed his mind, we're now at 12 Yes and nobody against it.

At the last couple of Worlds in Morro Bay I remember Jack setting a few rules like "only 1 practice run each" (can't remember the exact details). If someone would have violated these rules Jack would have thrown them out of the race solely based upon his own opinion and the rules he set. With all due right. He organized the event, he set up the rules. You don't follow - you're out. I'm sure everyone agrees to this rule, it's guess it's just the anti-sportive behaviour phrase which upsets people. Maybe we can find a better writing.

/Jani

Pat Chewning
Pat C.
Pat C.
Posts: 1400
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:00 am
Location: Portland Oregon

Re: HMMM....

Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:00 pm

Marty Schaub wrote:OK, so something happens at a race that I feel I got screwed on. I protest. The promoter/starter/timer wants to press on and does nothing. I can be thrown out for wanting to press my objections based solely on someone's opinion?

WOW.
If you went through the established process of a protest, and you still continued to be excessive and belligerent with further objections, then Yes, I think you should be thrown out so that the contest can proceed.

John Gilmour
Team Roe Racing
Team Roe Racing
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:00 am
Location: USA

Post by John Gilmour » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:52 am

I also think that if it can be demonstrated that a skater used deliberate deceit to cheat. For instance-
lies about a cone marshall being in his way, or a cone out, or argueing a easy to prove DQ. That is absolutlely unsportmanlike behavior.

Though I must say the story about the "dog on course" when there was no dog was a funny story.
One good turn deserves another
john gilmour

Locked