ISSA World Record Rules -- Proposal and Discussion

general rules, special-tight-giant rules

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Pat Chewning
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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue May 20, 2008 8:31 pm

Great idea Richie.... One weekend of around-the-world record setting.

I'll put something together.

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Post by Neil Orta » Tue May 20, 2008 10:51 pm

I agree with Richie with all except for cone count-clean only.

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Oi!!

Post by Richy Carrasco » Wed May 21, 2008 2:03 am

Sounds good Neil , but Luca who set the original record had displaced a couple of cones while setting it , I think there could be a cone max added to the event . Maybe 10 out!!

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Rules have been voted on and are effective June 6th

Post by Pat Chewning » Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:36 am


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Re: Oi!!

Post by Martin Drayton » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:43 am

Richy Carrasco wrote:Sounds good Neil , but Luca who set the original record had displaced a couple of cones while setting it , I think there could be a cone max added to the event . Maybe 10 out!!
The true 'original' record was set by Martin Sweeney on the BBC Programme "Record Breakers", 100 cones @ 6ft.CLEAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSLwX_MLvJs
I think Ed Brockman has the whole program on DVD with the additional footage which shows that being a super tight specialist, Martin then went on to do the same thing with 5ft spacings!....CLEAN.

Martin.

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:59 pm

Sure it was clean, but the narrator still says that "if Martin knocks down any cone its a 0.1 sec penalty". I guess that kinds of settles the long lasting argument that misplaced cones means DQ. I'm sure Martin would have made a 4ft course clean to, at least in 40 or so seconds, but who cares its about making 100 cones as fast as possible - penalty included.

From what I've understood Martin was first and then Luca. But on the other hand the narrator also says that there is a time to beat so somebody must have had the record before Martin. Perhaps a list with names/dates/times/cones of all past records would be good.

I guess I'm a little late coming with input to the rules, but why really should there be a masters division (and how old should you be), and why don't you specify that it should be center to center and not xx ft/meters between cones. A common mistake by beginners is to set courses this way and it makes quite a big difference.

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Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:05 am

Marcus Seyffarth wrote:I guess I'm a little late coming with input to the rules, but why really should there be a masters division (and how old should you be), and why don't you specify that it should be center to center and not xx ft/meters between cones. A common mistake by beginners is to set courses this way and it makes quite a big difference.
The masters division is clearly spelled out in the ISSA rules (45 yrs old or more).

Clarifying that the measurement is to the cone center is a good idea and should be incorporated into future revisions of the rules.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:44 pm

Pat,

How does it looks like for our event in Zurich with the setted WR rules ?

We have a slope which is for shure more than 1% differenz between the start and finish for a 50 Cone WR.
And we have 180m street which makes it hard to set a 100 Cones course.

We planed to hold an World Record attempt (100 Cones if poosible, otherwise 50) on this street and invited 8 of the fastest racers here in Europe. The most already confirmed to attend the race.

What is now the solution for our competition, does we can't held any WR on this street ?


I have a meeting on the 15th of June with the City of Zurich. We want more publicitie and want to step forward as the main attraction of the car free day which attracts 100`000 people here in Zurich.

I would like to know if we can held the WR attempt for the 50 Cones and i would like to know how many of them (15 people) which voted on the rules are organising events by them self ?

/J-Rad

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Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:32 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:Pat,

We have a slope which is for shure more than 1% differenz between the start and finish for a 50 Cone WR.
And we have 180m street which makes it hard to set a 100 Cones course.

We planed to hold an World Record attempt (100 Cones if poosible, otherwise 50) on this street and invited 8 of the fastest racers here in Europe. The most already confirmed to attend the race.

What is now the solution for our competition, does we can't held any WR on this street ?
/J-Rad
The original concept for the 50-cone event called for a flat surface:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... light=FLAT The ISSA rules has put an actual specification on the definition of "Flat". If you had come up with a broader definition, we could have discussed this and voted on it. But you didn't. The 1% slope is the slope used on most football pitches to drain the water. It seemed like a reasonable number for flatness. If you have a slope exceeding the flat specification, you can run the 50-cone event by running in each direction and taking the average of 2 runs. This may decrease the likelyhood of setting a world record. I suggest finding a truly flat spot.


Yes, I agree with you that trying to set a full 100-cone course on a 180m long street does not look good (because even at 1.8m spacing, you need some starting and stopping distance). There is nothing NEW in the rules that is forcing this. This would have been a problem under any set of rules. Your street is too short for 100-cones.

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:11 pm

Put up a really large startramp (hello GOG crew) run 100 cones at 1.60 or 1.65 and then have a large quarterpipe and you could combine worlds fastest 100 cones with worlds highest air. :)

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:39 am

Pat,

that's the shit of those good rules. I organise competitions since 2000 and have problems to understand all rules and to interpret them.

What do you think how is it for someone who has nothing to do with slalom.

We will do the 50 Cones in Zurich just in one direction, if you want you can fly to Zurich to control if the slope is less or more than 1%, i don't care.

The big question is: Should the World Record be done somwhere in a empty stadion with your friends or in the most beautiful city in front of thousend of people with a realy good level of competitors?

Answer the question by your self and have a look, which 15 people voted on this rules and tell me if there is just one organiser in this list who plans to hold an WR?

/J-Rad

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:55 pm

JRAD:

For all courses that are supposed to be done in the flat you have two choices:
A) Choose a surface that is flat (1% slope or less)
B) Choose a surface that is not flat, and run in both directions, average 2 runs.

If the surface you have chosen is the smoothest in the world, surrounded by hundreds of thousands of excited spectators, cone-headed by gorgeous naked women, and set in a beautiful city -- if it still is sloped so much that it really matters which direction you run it, then you must run it in both directions.

Even if someone were to fly out to your event, it would not change the flatness of the course. If your course is not flat, or you choose not to measure it as being flat, then run it both ways.

If you object to running it both ways, then that pretty well proves that it is not flat.

We cannot have world records set on sloped courses when they are supposed to be flat.

The rules are actually MORE PERMISSIVE this way. They allow running in one direction for slopes up to 1%.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:10 am

Of course, we will change the ramp from one direction to the other and hope that the naked women and the audience will apploud how we change the ramp.

They are there for watching slalom and not to watch how we can change the ramp position.

What is wrong with the rules is, that we are making rules and than see how it works. Every one with just a bit brain think first what he want's and than set rules !

What is more important for a World Record ?

- to show slalom with the best racers to the public
or
- to have one more event for big guy's where they can play in a secret place with them self.


You can practice, you can compete in outlaw races and you can compete on bigger races is it needed to have the WR as well in this class or is it possible to have the WR as a thing to show what slalom is and to promot it with the best racers of the scene in front of a big crowd ?

From my point of view the WR should show the best what slalom can give. And that is a small group of racer's which looks impressive on their boards. I want to show it to the Kids and they want to see the best to be impressed and to dream about it the next night.

For my it makes no sense that you or me or someone else who has no chance to set a record that he participate in a WR attempt. Those can practice and when they are in shape they can do it.

I don't want to attac anyone here, but to see a big guy in a WR attempt is just a big joke for me.

The other thing is, that the slalom scene can't chose where they want to held their races in front of a big crowd, we have to go where the people are, the people are not coming somwhere just to watch a slalom race. We get the Rennweg before 4 years, which is in the city of the city in Zurich, that's for Zurich like the trocadero for Paris.

As i asked it in the post before, who are those 13 people who make the decision for this rules ? That are arround 10% of the whole memebers. That's less than nothing !

We will for shure not run it in both directions and we will for shure not change the place where we will held the competition.

As a big tip for the future.

When the ISSA plans to set rules as first step say what the goals are of those rules. If the rules has no goals than they are not needed, very easy !

Tell me what the differences are in running the 50 Cones on a slope or on flat. I know the rules were taken from the World Record which Martin did in London. But did they have a wind meassuring? or did they have beams or tapeswitches ? , or was it held in a competition ? Three times no.

Slalom is a sport that lives and changes trough innovation. Why should we not keep that spirit in the WR as well. Why this restriction (flat) in the 50 Cones and not as well for the 100 Cones.

As i say before for me the WR is somthing for the best racers out in the slalom scene. There is one WR holder and he should have the honor for him self. All others who want to participate on this should practice and not get somthing of them trough any rules.

If the ISSA want's to improve than change those rules and make the WR what it is for.

/J-Rad

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Post by Neil Orta » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:27 am

I guess I am overlooking what is probably the obvious but how would one set a course with infrared beams with start and finish at the center of the cones without the cones getting in the way of the timing or timing getting in the way of the cones?

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Just a casual observer.

Post by Spike Taylor » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:36 am

You can tell me to shut up, but I have an opinion of some of the stuff you wrote mate,
Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:
What is more important for a World Record ?

- to show slalom with the best racers to the public
or
- to have one more event for big guy's where they can play in a secret place with them self.

I don't want to attac anyone here, but to see a big guy in a WR attempt is just a big joke for me.
/J-Rad
From the few sessions I've seen and some of the vids, you're sayin that dudes like Mig from Canada and Michael Stride from here, shouldn't be 'allowed' to set a record because they are big guys? Nice one, you have just alienated half the slalom world. OK, just us young fit guys then can do it. Yes I get your point about looking like athletes, but if it wasn't for guys like these, people like me wouldn't even be doing it at all. Aren't they allowed their moment in the spotlight?
Jadranko Radovanovic wrote: Tell me what the differences are in running the 50 Cones on a slope or on flat. I know the rules were taken from the World Record which Martin did in London. But did they have a wind meassuring? or did they have beams or tapeswitches ? , or was it held in a competition ? Three times no.
/J-Rad
Were you there? No, neither was I, but I'm sure Guiness would have checked the wind. And do World Record attempts always have to be held in competitions? No.
Jadranko Radovanovic wrote: Slalom is a sport that lives and changes trough innovation. Why should we not keep that spirit in the WR as well. Why this restriction (flat) in the 50 Cones and not as well for the 100 Cones.

/J-Rad
Isn't the idea of the 25 and 50 record events was that there were uniform conditions wherever in the World you tried it? You would't have a 100m record for sprinting on any downhill slope would you? And in that sport the 'Fat Knackers' get weeded out, but if a bloke who weighs 150kg and can beat Michael Johnson, let the bugger run! Like the film says - RUN, FAT BOY, RUN!

Spike.
FUN-is the bottom line!

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Post by Pat Chewning » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:08 pm

Neil Orta wrote:I guess I am overlooking what is probably the obvious but how would one set a course with infrared beams with start and finish at the center of the cones without the cones getting in the way of the timing or timing getting in the way of the cones?
I would place the infrared on a tripod, box, or platform set about 3 inches (75mm) above the height of the cone. The beam goes above the height of the cone.

Alternatively, you could punch a hole through the first and last cones to let the beam of light through.

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Post by Neil Orta » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:57 pm

Like I said, obvious-duh!LOL Thanks Pat

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Post by Sj Kalliokoski » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:40 pm

Or install reflector to side of cone perhaps.
-pokkis
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some true words from Jadranko

Post by Steve Hinzen » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:24 pm

Jadranko:
When the ISSA plans to set rules as first step say what the goals are of those rules. If the rules has no goals than they are not needed, very easy !
Jadranko, You're so damn right about this! A year before I adressed this idea to the ISSA:

Get a vision and the rules will follow!

So far nobody of the ISSA seems to understand this.
Year after year ISSA-members get lost and stuck in discussing rules in detail on this forum because there is no primal idea where the ISSA wants to go.
I am sorry but as long as this idea hasn't been developped I personally feel that any engament in these discussions is a waste of time.
But some guys on this forum seem to welcome these endless discussions as their perfect leisure time activity....

keep playing. Steve.

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WR Weekend

Post by Richy Carrasco » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:12 pm

The idea of this event is to give all racers a shot at attempting WR for the desired courses without haveing to travel around the world. Who knows maybe some guy from the outback will crawl out dust off his grentec (Jim Korten)and set a new record! There has to be some perameters for rules or people could abuse them. As far as ramps, I say sure! Luca was on one when he set the original record . I think tow in is not fair, because the rider conserves energy when being towed compared to haveing to drop in and pump the ramp! We are going to do push. This will be interesting to see the times role in from all over.

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Re: some true words from Jadranko

Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:59 pm

Steve Hinzen wrote:So far nobody of the ISSA seems to understand this.
Year after year ISSA-members get lost and stuck in discussing rules in detail on this forum because there is no primal idea where the ISSA wants to go.
I am sorry but as long as this idea hasn't been developped I personally feel that any engament in these discussions is a waste of time.
But some guys on this forum seem to welcome these endless discussions as their perfect leisure time activity....

keep playing. Steve.
Steven,

As a board member and long-time member of the ISSA I have to disagree. The ISSA has a clearer vision now of its goals and agenda than ever before.

The ISSA is working (and succeeding) in doing two things:

1. Providing CONSISTENCY to worldwide slalom competition
2. Providing COMMUNICATION CHANNELS for every slalom skater (this website.)

Yes, we'd all like to see hundreds of races around the world with millions of dollars in prizes but that's something that will take a LOT of time and effort. Right now the ISSA is more concerned with ensuring that every race and every skater will enjoy a competitive, consistent, challenging and rewarding experience whenever the commitment is made to spend a good deal of time and money.

I know these two goals seem simple enough and maybe even small in comparison to what other sport sanctioning bodies accomplish. But I do believe it is better to do something small VERY WELL than it is to try and attempt a lot of big things and fail miserably.

Yes, the ISSA has been involved in its fair share of controversey (6-wheeled skateboards, race sanctions for different events, the World Ranking, the rules process, etc.). There is no guarantee, however, that everyone will be happy all the time. All the ISSA can do is work to ensure its decisions, policies and agenda are as consistent and forthright as possible for the betterment of slalom skateboard racing. My assessment is that goal is being achieved by virtue of the fact that racing today is better than it was seven seven years ago. With more work and more dediciation it will be better in seven years than it is now.
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:16 am

As a board member and long-time member of the ISSA I have to disagree. The ISSA has a clearer vision now of its goals and agenda than ever before.
Wes,

where is this agenda ?
1. Providing CONSISTENCY to worldwide slalom competition
2. Providing COMMUNICATION CHANNELS for every slalom skater (this website.)
The competitions in slalom wasn't very different from location to location in the years before the ISSA.

Communication inside the scene is just a small thing. Communication outside the scene is a big thing and it brings the sport forward.

There was a chance to communicate outside with the WR, but with this rules we will do the WR somwhere in the nowhere.

Does it needs 7 Board Members to running something which is implemented for years?
The same with the website. We discussed if it should be static or dynamic, but didn't discussed what should be the content. The same with the World Ranking, we make it complex to this level where no one understands it anymore, although it would be much easier to keep it simple.
There were set some criterias for the statuses, but no weighting what it means there are criterias, but interpret it in the way you want.

Now tell me how you can go goal-oriented forward ?

It's not possible, because the goals are nowhere written down.

Spike,
what I wrote before it's not about big guys or small guys. It's about the position of the WR in the Slalom scene. I wrote it once time before, that it's not possible to vote on some points in the rules without changing the effect of the whole. There are interactions between the detailed points in the rules. Every one who organise somthing goes from the raw to the detail. First comes the Vision of the ISSA than the Vision of the System WR and than the rules. Every where where the rules don't fit with the Vision, they are not needed.

That was the point yesterday, that is the point today and it will be the point of the dead of the ISSA tomorrow.


/J-Rad

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Post by Steve Hinzen » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:13 pm

Now tell me how you can go goal-oriented forward ?
It's not possible, because the goals are nowhere written down.
Every one who organise somthing goes from the raw to the detail. First comes the Vision of the ISSA than the Vision of the System WR and than the rules. Every where where the rules don't fit with the Vision, they are not needed.
It is absolutely true what Jadranko has written here. Each member of the ISSA-board should take this issue very serious.

Otherwise the ISSA will...

1. ...be turning in circles for years
or
2. ...get overrun by other's (stronger) interests
or
3. ...simply die.


Steve.

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