A suggestion...

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Martin Drayton
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A suggestion...

Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:53 am

I am going to say something at the risk of making myself unpopular that lots of people have been thinking and many have said to me, but no-one has said in a public forum...
For next years voting I am suggesting we vote again on WHO sets the courses at events. I think setting on the day (ideally), or night before, with 2 or 3 skaters whether they are local or not is fairer and shows who is more skilled, not who has practised on the course more.
For total credibility of results we need to have courses at large events that are new to EVERYONE.
It is a huge advantage to get a chance to hone technique, work out which wheels to use (size and duro) over a period of time using a timer, as opposed to turning up on the day with just 2 practice runs.
Just IMHO...

MD

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:58 am

All in!

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:05 pm

absolutely right

all our races were fresh courses in the past and will remain so in the future!

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Post by Pierre Hazera » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:37 pm

Great Martin

thanks for your post !!!!

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Post by Carsten Pingel » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:03 pm

I totally agree, Martin!

Proposal:

1 Pro, 1 AM and 1 Wo (if there are some!) set the course (all courses together!) the night before the race.
Or in the early morning.

The "course-setters" will be chosen by the race organisator by random out of the online registration list.

Maybe no locals?

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Post by Robert Gaisek » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:18 pm

This sounds absolutely perfect!
It is not so nice to be accused for cheating with the courses. New to everyone is a good thing.
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:39 pm

One local or sb from the organization team

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Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:49 pm

robert gaisek wrote:This sounds absolutely perfect!
It is not so nice to be accused for cheating with the courses. New to everyone is a good thing.
True Robo, no-one wants to be accused of that. People will always have a suspicion of 'home advantage' unless they actually see you set it before the event starts.
Obviously straight courses are not really an issue so much (not on the flat courses anyway ;), but thats another topic!) but offset ones are and wherever slope is involved.

Martin

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Post by Ulf Haag » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:16 pm

work out which wheels to use (size and duro) over a period of time
Martin.... does this mean that you want us to find a new hill and prepare it with new asphalt every new event that we make in G-burg ;-)

//Wolf

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Post by Robert Gaisek » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:34 pm

We can do that!
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Post by Robert Gaisek » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:34 pm

We can do that!
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Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:44 pm

Ulf Haag wrote:
work out which wheels to use (size and duro) over a period of time
Martin.... does this mean that you want us to find a new hill and prepare it with new asphalt every new event that we make in G-burg ;-)

//Wolf
No Wolf, and please don't take offence, this is NOT an attack on anyone. There is an optimum set-up for each course set, regardless of the Hill. Some days 77's or 73's might be faster on that hill, other days 69's because the course is different and more technical...If you are riding the course for the first time, it will probably take more than a couple of practice runs to decide which works better. That is fine as long as it is new to everyone and we are all having the same number of practice runs.

However, new asphalt would be nice for EVERY race ever run ;)

martin.

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Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:46 pm

robert gaisek wrote:We can do that!
You are very lucky, down here on the coast, I can't find one hill!!!

MD

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:49 pm

Sounds to me like Martin has an agenda against the Downhillbillies?

What's more is when I go to a race I want the course set and ready to go. Standing around waiting for the course setters to get done dicking around with what works and then taking the time to duplicate the course and then taking the time to chalk the course . . . by then it's time for lunch.

As far as course setters coming in the night before that's great: who's going to pay for the additional two hours of traffic stoppage and detours while all this is going on?

And finally, if someone goes to the time, trouble, EXPENSE and aggravation of arranging, promoting and managing a race, it is their prerogative to also have the pleasure of setting a course for THEIR RACE.
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Gather rules update proposals in one place ...

Post by Pat Chewning » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:56 pm

Proposals for rules updates are being collected here:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=5892

Soon these will have to be formalized into specifc proposals for changing specific wording of parts of the rules, and then decided upon.

I suggest at a minimum that you put your proposal into that subject area.

Are there any volunteers to be the driving force for coming up with a method to sift throught the proposals, decide on which ones have enough merit, and then modify the rules?

-- Pat

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Post by Marion Karr » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:06 pm

Martin, I understand your point but as a race promoter who is charged with a great deal of other activities other than the course setting having the course set the day of an event is highly impractical. With the exception of Hobby Park, every race venue we use is a public street that we have limited access to prior to an event. Even though we do pre-set courses prior we are not in a position to practice those courses with the exception of during the time we are setting them. Our city does not allow us access to block the streets for practice.

The Worlds courses last year were all set two weeks prior to the event in the middle of the night (literally from 12 am to 2 am) under the watchful eye of our local police force and with very little time for any of our riders to gain any more advantage than any local skater would have any where else.

Locals are going to already know the pavement, wheel choices, and venue. Yes, with a new course being set on the day of the event the course itself will be new but there is no way you are going to be able to eliminate all local knowledge. For example, the pavement techniques used in Colorado and California are significantly diffrerent than they are here in North Carolina. The first time I went to the COSS US Nationals I had never skated on pavement like that or on a road that had that much crown. All of the locals there had their wheel choices dialed in because they road on that type of pavement all of the time.

For this year's Dixie Cup we will have all brand new courses that will be set prior but will not be able to be practiced. The new GS hill is a state maintained highway that runs right through town and has traffic 24 hours a day. Skating on it without cones is taking your life in your own hands a bit.
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Post by Marion Karr » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:16 pm

robert gaisek wrote:This sounds absolutely perfect!
It is not so nice to be accused for cheating with the courses. New to everyone is a good thing.
Cheating? Does COSS cheat? How about anyone putting on races at Pump Station? La Costa? Luna?

How about ice hockey teams who's home arena boards rebound the puck differently than other teams? cheaters? Or football(soccer teams) who get to practice on a regular basis on their pitch in a variety of different kinds of weather so they happen to know the right type of spike/cleat to use? Is that cheating? Or pro golfers who get to play major tournements on the course they happen to live on or is their home course? Tiger cheats?

I am sorry but pre-setting courses because it is part of the process of planning the event is not cheating in my book.

It would be great to be able to set a course same day of an event but how many of you were at the Buckeye a couple of years ago? Racing didnt get started to late in the day because of the time it took to set the dual courses on that long of a hill. Not to mention what could have been a major injury when a skater who was riding the course to test the spacing as part of the set up crashed into the DJ Booth when another skater who was waiting to race walked across the course. Having everyone standing on the hill waiting as the course is being set can lead to a disasterous result.

I would welcome the "luxury" of having courses set the day of the race ..it would be one more thing off of my pre-race planning list...but the risk that it could completely delay the day, cause issues with getting done (especially if there are weather or timing equipment issues), gives me more stress than I would prefer to take on.
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Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:38 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote:Sounds to me like Martin has an agenda against the Downhillbillies?
Whaaaat? Where did that come from? I've never even been to one of their races, nor do I have an 'agenda' with the Downhillbillies or anyone Wesley. I am talking in general terms. This is NOTHING to do with the Worlds last year.
Wesley Tucker wrote:What's more is when I go to a race I want the course set and ready to go. Standing around waiting for the course setters to get done dicking around with what works and then taking the time to duplicate the course and then taking the time to chalk the course . . . by then it's time for lunch.
Not if its done early in the morning...It doesn't take that long if the people involved know what they are doing. It WILL take longer if the people involved are not used to setting courses all the time.
We do it in the UK at every one of our races. We had courses set on the day at the European Champs at Grenoble last year for Pros AND seperate dual courses for the Ams.
Wesley Tucker wrote: As far as course setters coming in the night before that's great: who's going to pay for the additional two hours of traffic stoppage and detours while all this is going on?
Then you do it early in the morning. On race day people are working on site early anyway. We did just that for the "Showdown on Main St" in Park City at 6am, as clearly we couldn't get the road shut down twice. I set a dual Tight, with other racers,took it down and marked up a dual Hybrid which stayed up for the first event and it started at the scheduled time.
Wesley Tucker wrote: And finally, if someone goes to the time, trouble, EXPENSE and aggravation of arranging, promoting and managing a race, it is their prerogative to also have the pleasure of setting a course for THEIR RACE.
Is it a pleasure? With all the other duties? As a Race Organiser myself, I would rather forego the pleasure than have people suspect that myself and several racers had trained on it.
You are missing the point Wes, my objection is to courses being set a couple of weeks ahead and people training on the exact courses that will be used for the event.
Is that clearer for you?

Martin

ps While editing this before posting, several times to avoid upsetting anyone, various people have now responded and unfortunately due to Wes's inflammatory post, seem to be taking this personally. This was not my intention.
Again...pre-setting is fine if thats the way it has to be, practicing for a considerable time ON THE COURSES TO BE USED IN THE EVENT is not.
I'm done and will wait for the debate next year,

Thanks,

Martin.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:49 pm

Martin Drayton wrote:
Wesley Tucker wrote:Sounds to me like Martin has an agenda against the Downhillbillies?
Whaaaat? Where did that come from? I've never even been to one of their races, nor do I have an 'agenda' with the Downhillbillies or anyone Wesley. I am talking in general terms. This is NOTHING to do with the Worlds last year.
The point, Martin, is that obviously something is going on in Europe that does NOT affect North America. I know you've never been to North Carolina but everything you listed in your first post as worthy of change is everything the DHBs do to put on a race. Marion's responses to this thread only further emphasize this point.

The problem is the ISSA is an INTERNATIONAL organization. As such rules have to be universally adopted and adhered to. This goes even moreso with Ramon's issue with flat slalom. Again, I don't know what's going on in Europe but a rule against flat slalom is irrelevant over here.

If you took my response personally then all I can say is your original post was very close to home. The only thing you didn't do was ask for a ban on bar-b-que dinners and big moonshine jugs for prizes.
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Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:09 pm

Dearest Wes,

I say again...For total credibility of results we need to have courses at large events that are new to EVERYONE.
It doesn't really matter if you set it 6 months before, the night before or during the Moonshine BBQ Party ;) ...as long as people don't train on it.
If this is not an issue in North America, thats great, I look forward to racing there soon, however as you correctly state, this is an International site for an International Organisation, where else are we supposed to raise issues? Be they course setting issues or flat courses...

Martin

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Re: A suggestion...

Post by Rick Floyd » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:38 pm

Martin Drayton wrote:I am going to say something at the risk of making myself unpopular...

MD
Silly Martin...don't raise issues, just be happy. ;-)

Just to add info to the discussion - at this year's Farm (54 or so racers I believe) , Tway, Joe and Glen set and ran a GS, ran an informal straight-line DH, then set and ran a dual TS with three classes, then set and ran a vintage race...all in one day. So it CAN be done. Was there a lot of standing around? Sure, but it was standing around with the coolest people on earth.

I know of two flat slaloms at big events in the US this year - Morro Bay (50 cone 1 and done) and Antrim (50 cone World Record challenge). They were/are "exhibition" events, so you didn't/don't have to do them, but they do exist.

Man, I'd love to get a couple cracks at my snowboard courses before the race! :-)

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Post by Robert Gaisek » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:42 pm

I hope that my post about cheating didn´t sound like an accusation to somebody.
Before the Worlds there was some bullshit about for how long we had run the courses and I was referring to that and nothing else.
To avoid such it would be good to have it set close to the contest.
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Re: A suggestion...

Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Rick Floyd wrote:
Martin Drayton wrote:I am going to say something at the risk of making myself unpopular...

MD
Silly Martin...don't raise issues, just be happy. ;-)

Just to add info to the discussion - at this year's Farm (54 or so racers I believe) , Tway, Joe and Glen set and ran a GS, ran an informal straight-line DH, then set and ran a dual TS with three classes, then set and ran a vintage race...all in one day. So it CAN be done. Was there a lot of standing around? Sure, but it was standing around with the coolest people on earth.

I know of two flat slaloms at big events in the US this year - Morro Bay (50 cone 1 and done) and Antrim (50 cone World Record challenge). They were/are "exhibition" events, so you didn't/don't have to do them, but they do exist.

Man, I'd love to get a couple cracks at my snowboard courses before the race! :-)

-RF
Thanks Rick, I am happy, but a lot of people are bugged by it and I was just trying to help....won't do that again!
I'll see ya at the Farm, I flew from the UK to do my bit for the 9/11 fund for the very first one and it was super cool and laid back-I miss it!
Yeah, sideslipping snowboard courses, that brings back memories!
What if there were no training runs for anyone on our courses (like the 'One and Done'), now THATS cool and a real test of ability!

Take care,

Martin.

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Re: A suggestion...

Post by Rick Floyd » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:23 pm

Martin Drayton wrote:What if there were no training runs for anyone on our courses (like the 'One and Done'), now THATS cool and a real test of ability!

Take care,

Martin.
I've thought about that - single set, walking course inspection only, then two runs and best combined time wins. The problem is that it means less skating!!

Even tougher, the snow races where in-course inspection is not allowed and you must inspect only from BESIDE the course.

As you know, we don't have this problem in snowboard racing. The surface is always changing, courses are almost always set day of race, different coaches set different races. Now I'm getting amped to strap on the race boots! :-)

I'm another one who likes to analyze results - reaction times, cones, other racers, individual training and run times...I raised some hackles last winter on our forums for suggesting detailed results be available to all racers. I consider it an elementary part of training and preparation, especially from year to year. In all my sports, I've always kept training/race logs - it's amazing what you learn from reviewing them...no stone unturned in pursuit of excellence.

Some people seem to feel that it precludes having fun to be so serious about racing, but I consider it PART of the fun...and after all, it is a RACE. :-)

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Re: A suggestion...

Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:41 pm

Rick Floyd wrote:
As you know, we don't have this problem in snowboard racing. The surface is always changing, courses are almost always set day of race, different coaches set different races. Now I'm getting amped to strap on the race boots! :-)
Same can be true of slalom skateboard racing. At the Dixie Cup on the first weekend in November the asphalt can be stone cold in the morning for qualifying. As soon as the sun, though, tops the court house around 11:30 the temps can skyrocket into the '70s or '80s and the asphalt can be blazing in less than a half hour. And the difference in racing is very real.

Back in 2005 when the DHB were just getting into slalom, Marion called me sometime in October to tell me about a really fast session they had one night at 1:00 in the morning. They were riding some relatively soft downhill wheels they were used to. I said to Marion, "go over there Sunday afternoon when it's hot and ride that street again when there's no traffic."

On Monday Karr called and said, "dude, I got to get some harder wheels before the race!"
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Post by Marion Karr » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:23 pm

Martin,
Dude you are cool...no worries. I completely understand your point. I completely agree too that :setting courses and practicing on them over and over and over is not appropriate.

Hope you can make it to the Dixie Cup...the courses will be fresh with very little pre-riding..

NOw git over here!!!

Message me if you need any info.
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Post by Marion Karr » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:26 pm

robert gaisek wrote:I hope that my post about cheating didn´t sound like an accusation to somebody.
Before the Worlds there was some bullshit about for how long we had run the courses and I was referring to that and nothing else.
To avoid such it would be good to have it set close to the contest.
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Thanks Robert...I appreciate the clarification...Dude, if I cheated I would be faster don't you think? ha ha.
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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:26 pm

I think its a good proposal. It really sucks when you are still waiting for your flight to a race and you can read on the forums that those who arrived early are already racing the courses. I understand that its not a problem in most cases in the US since you run on regular streets, but in europe most larger races (Paris/GOG/Riga/Gothenburg...) are run in parks or small streets with little or no traffic.

The invention of only 2 practice runs was great, now if we can just make it apply to all.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:50 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote: The problem is the ISSA is an INTERNATIONAL organization. As such rules have to be universally adopted and adhered to. This goes even moreso with Ramon's issue with flat slalom. Again, I don't know what's going on in Europe but a rule against flat slalom is irrelevant over here.
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Post by Martin Drayton » Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:11 am

Marion-I love you too my smooth-headed brother, I WILL make it to Dixie one day...Just waiting for the USCIS to get their act together!
Rick-I'm a stats nerd too, for me its part of the fun.
Marcus-"The invention of only 2 practice runs was great, now if we can just make it apply to all."-You rock!
Ramon-Don't emigrate, I'm doing that, I don't want to get beaten by you on two continents!

Martin xxx

ps. Wesley-See you at the BBQ, have my moonshine jug ready...and full!

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Post by Jack Smith » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:38 pm

In a perfect world...

Courses would be set by a non-competing racer or racers.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:41 pm

Jack Smith wrote:In a perfect world...

Courses would be set by a non-competing racer or racers.
Then me and Tway will do it because we're never competitive.
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Post by Jack Smith » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:51 pm

Hey, don't leave me out of that group.

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Post by Rick Floyd » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:38 pm

Jack Smith wrote:In a perfect world...

Courses would be set by a non-competing racer or racers.
That's how we do it on snow. There is occaisional grumbling about so-and-so's coach set a course suited to his/her style etc., but it's minor. Hard to do at the more local races because the best course setters are usually the racers, but in bigger comps it is possible. No offense to Glen Chapman's course-setting abitilities intended - he is VERY good at it - but I would love to have you or/and Gilmour set for us in in Antrim!
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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:04 pm

in a perfect world...
courses should definitely NOT be set by non-skating,mostly totally unexperienced folks.


good suggestion but this doesn't work

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:14 pm

So far, this season the best solution was probably Amsterdam. Frank Beste (as far as I know) set the Pro Special and it was awesome! Kathrin and Frank both set the Hybrid, which was also nice. So my suggestion:

Pick a few folks from the top Ams to set the Pro (Tight) courses. Pros do the same for the Ams (tight) courses. Hybrid is set by a group of Ams, Women and Pros (or also talented Juniors). The same for Giant.

rmn
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:57 pm

Don,

I think Jack was referring to an active experienced slalom skater who is unable to skate in a particular race (injured most likely.)

Of course, we can't always depend on someone breaking an arm so we can have a course setter, there's also people available who are more than knowledgeable of the sport but don't race much anymore (Henry Hester, Curt Kimbel and Steve Evans come to mind.)

The other real drawback, though, to Jack's suggestion is that here in the states we would have seen for the past two years Gilmour and Mollica setting all the courses.
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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:42 pm

hummm
yes
i misinterprted the statement ...
sorry


so where's the bullwhip?

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:54 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:so where's the bullwhip?
You need to talk to Cat about that.
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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:46 pm

now that's a good idea...

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Post by Cat Young » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:31 am

Wesley Tucker wrote:
Donald Campbell wrote:so where's the bullwhip?
You need to talk to Cat about that.
Didn't you mean Bull$hit?? :)
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Post by Guillaume Saint-Criq » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:19 am

one month before : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3vbsYxP ... re=channel
race day : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onH0B_b3 ... re=channel

really sorry to come again with that but it's not so clever to put it on YouTube :D

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Post by Robert Gaisek » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:48 am

I´m sorry that youre sorry....but that is NOT the same course.
I´m riding that one in the first vid and the second one is much tighter and a bit different.
I´m not even close to ride the second one without hitting every cone.
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Post by Sam Erick » Fri May 29, 2009 7:32 am

Well, I am not a skater but i love to watch one, I am looking forward for that straight course you guys are planning. I am sure it will be fun to watch.
Sam Erick,
Denver Skatepark

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