The New ISSA 2004 - Relaunch 2006

[Robert J Herten]

You'll shoot your eye out.

[Ron Barbagallo]

my ISSA Secret Decoder ring only instructs me to be sure and drink my Ovaltine, is this correct?

[Joe Iacovelli]

Sorry for the oversite Rick. I'll send you mine.

[Rick Stanziale]

I never received my Membership package & T-shirt.

[John Gilmour]

Didn't he compete in the 2003 Antibes race?

No, neither Ridoli, nor Sidler have competed during the last couple of years. They were both in Gruningen in 2002 but they were discouraged to the see the kind of cone distances that were used there (and then). I tried to talk Ridoli into making the 5 km drive for the 2003 event, but he didn't want to do it. It seemed there would be a chance to get him out of his retirement, but I haven't tried since then.

/Jani

If they went to the Pump station TS or any of the good TS races in the USA this year they would very much like the courses and feel right at Home.

I think the overly simplistic and loose TS races with 8 foot cone distances are all but gone except in a Beginners race. I would expect the most PRO TS courses this year to be similar to the special slalom or Dual special slalom set in Hombrechtikon- the skill level in the USA has really risen. Even the kids are ripping on tighter and technical courses.

But perhaps the best thing we could do is send a video clip and show a tape with the measurements.

What happened to "growing up Gatti?" Paulo Gatti..that is.

[Steve Collins]

I think it might be useful for the ISSA to produce a document that covers the following, as a starting point for a discussion of standards:


1. Course Standards
---(Layout Guidelines, including start, cone spacing & offset, finish & runout)
---Super Giant
---Giant
---Hybrid
---Tight
---Other

2. Race Organization Standards:
---Minimum standards that all races must meet (should be easy to meet)
---How long prior to race for announcement, method of announcement
---Racer pre-qualifications (i.e. pro/am/open/A/B/dagger, etc.)
---Method for signup (& payment)

3. Race Operations Standards
---Racer organization, qeueing, & herding
---Announcer responsibilities
---Go-to person for final word on all issues
---Starting
------Ramp & push
------Sounds, lights, gates, etc
------Starter (i.e. Ed E.)
------Early start assessment & penalties
---Timing
---Cone Management
------Coneheads & cone marshalls
---------Conehead education
---------Method for reasonably ensuring that all cones are in place prior to a run
---------System for counting hit cones & assessing penalties
---------System for determining missed cones for DQ

4. Racing Rules
---General:
------Such as: No touching the ground; Go around the cones; etc.
---Equipment:
------Such as: Helmets are mandatory; No hazardous equipment; No motors; etc.
---Criddling:
------Such as: No hands; Board or foot on board OK; etc.




(It's been raining a lot around here lately

[alavoine jean paul]

when Publishing of SLALOM! ceased slalom died pretty quickly.
. .

Never stopped, never stopped...

[Hans Koraeus]

Claude, this is exactly what I mean. When seeing things from this horizion how can anyone be against ISSA. I get upset everytime I see people take inline/roller skating, BMX and whatever as the same as skateboarding just beacuse we use the same tools (ramps, slalom courses and streets). Why don't they just put all ball sports into one big association I say. If you all want to save slalom from being taken over by others who have their heart somewhere else its time to see over your garden fence. Or else, big evil mr corporate roller man will come and get you. And it will not just be your common nightmare. It's going to be for real.

We need to show that we are organized. Having our s#it together with world support concerning organization, competitions, world cups, world ranking and yes even rules. Se rules more as a way of defence for our sport and not just something that will stop evolution. As long as we are in control of the rules we are in control of the evolution. If no rules we will firstly be looked upon as a joke not noing what the f#ck we are up to. Secondly roller people have all the right to impose their own way of looking at slalom like the French roller association did recently. That is to me a much greater threat than us making rules ourselves.

So, please, everybody. Don't stay on the outside and critizise ISSA. Get in their first and then start critizise. That is much more productable for our sport.

[Claude Regnier]

The Rollersport Association reportedly told the IOC that they were the voice of all wheeled sports.. They included In-Line skating, skateboarding and BMX bikes possibly others. This has everyone up in a fuss.

The skateboard Industry is started to have the Association they stopped supporting way back get re-instated. The Canadian Amateur Skateboard Association was one of the first and complete Association put together. It was re-born just before the Worlds last year. I was one of the last board of directors and will likely return as one in the coming year.

I will try to operate a Branch of the Canadian Slalom Skateboard Association as a by product to support slalom. Things are up in the air right now and as soon as I am advised of when and how the changes will happen I will let you know.

This is not entirely relevant to the New ISSA, I am only letting you know some of the stuff that is going on incase you are not aware. The industry is pissed. They have lost control to outsiders and are doing everything they can to regain some degree of control. IASC and World Cup of Skateboarding are behind it all in the US. CASA in Canada and if you look around you will likely see other industry led association being put together around the World.

[Hans Koraeus]

We still have to do our best to get the word out to as many slalomers as possible. Everybody should be given the chance to be a part of it from the beginning. I sent this e-mail to all my slalom e-mail addresses. If you do the same and also make sure a post is done in your local forum I think we have done all that possibly can be asked of us.

This is the e-mail I sent. Feel free to copy it.

___________________________________________________________________________
<center>Breaking news!</center>


ISSA Calling!


ISSA (the International Skateboard Slalom Association) is now officially revived. To make a successful start of a new era in this association, and for the international skateboard slalom scene in general, we are all invited to join in.

The international skateboard slalom forum “slalomskateboarder.com” has been taken over to secure the administration, maintenance and the ideology as a common forum and service for all slalom skaters around the world. It should no longer be seen as a personal website. It is now the site of the international skateboard slalom community and the home of ISSA.

This is an invitation for all of you who for any reason have ended up in my e-mail slalom address book. I think it is very important to make this historical event start up in the right direction and with a broad international base.


Step 1: Getting the base
It’s important that we, the skaters, take control of our sport. There are many out there who have already put down a lot of work and money for the international skateboard slalom scene. Those who have had the opportunity to lay down cash for the monthly expenses of the old SlalomSkateboarder.com and recently helped out with buying over the ownership of the site, will automatically be members in this restart of ISSA. We know there are many of you who would have stepped up to the occasion if needed. Also all the previous ISSA coordinators have got automatic membership in this restart.

At the beginning of next year (2005) all the current members at that point in time will be published as the initial creators and supporters of a new era in skateboard slalom and ISSA itself. Don’t miss out on this historical event. A media release worthy of the occasion will be done.

If someone of your knowledge has not got this information, that you think should have it, please forward it to him or her.

Join ISSA by PayPal:ing $25 to issa@slalomskateboarder.com


Step 2: Setting up the structure
The initial members will start working on the structure of this association. There are many things to be discussed. There are many experienced slalom skaters who will express their view on things. But if we as slalom skaters can’t build it up correctly, no one else will. We have to start from the ground. We need a statement of the main reasons why ISSA is needed and what it should work for. Boring administrational work has to be sorted out. We need an agenda to make us all work efficiently in the same direction.

For us as slalomers to be noticed outside our skateboard slalom bubble, by other skaters as well as for non-skaters, media and sponsors, a face for our sport is needed. When the structure is there we can take on our gloves and start working.


Step 3: Start working
ISSA should be run by slalomers and work for the global interest of slalom skaters. Making us all get noticed by the larger skateboard family and by the world of sports in general. Sounds good but what does that really mean? Here are some of the possible tasks in front of us to tackle.

- International websites (both for internal and external audiences)
- International forum (slalomskateboarder.com)
- World Championship, World Cup, World Ranking
- Slalom magazine (Slalom! Support and lobby towards existing magazines)
- Increase the number of slalom skaters around the world.
- ISSA products (T-shirts, stickers, …)
- Rules and regulations (the old ISSA rules have to be reviewed for today’s slalom scene)
- Marketing and getting sponsors on an international level
- Olympic dreams?


“At the beginning of next year (2005) all the current members at that point in time will be published as the initial creators and supporters of a new era in skateboard slalom and ISSA itself. Don’t miss out on this historical event.”

Join ISSA by PayPal:ing $25 to issa@slalomskateboarder.com


P.S.
Read more about “the new ISSA” at
viewtopic.php?t=2248

P.S.
Just for your information. It seems like the International Olympic Committee has sent over a form of invitation to the International Roller Association. This roller association has contacted the skateboard industry (who or what organization I don’t know yet) to test the ground for a joint mission. July 2005 is the dead limit for entering new sports to the 2012 Olympics.

P.S.
Is it just a coincidence that slalom skate in France will now get in under their national roller association?

[Jani Soderhall]

The new ISSA
I don't think the new ISSA should replace something that is already being done. There's no need for that.
What we need to do is look into things which are currently overlooked.

Nobody could or should take over the responsability of the stuff being done right now. Jack's doing a great job, the sport needs him to continue. Gary Fluitt too. The various outlaw and grass roots series (by Gorman, Stanziale and others) should go on and hopefully we'll see more of them. UKSSA should carry on with their program and Riderz with theirs.
The best the new ISSA can achieve is to help and encourage these organizers.


The site
Freedom of speach doesn't come for free. The initial investors here didn't have a set agenda, all they wanted to achieve was for this forum to carry on. Nobody else stepped forward to offer a solution. Rather than calling the forum International SlalomSkateboarder Association we reused a name that wasn't far off and currently available. What we make out of it is up to ourselves, nobody else. Those who care to join are welcome. Those who prefer to stand on the side can do so, their ideas are just as welcome.


Can we put this topic aside now and get started on what, how and when?

/Jani

[Hans Koraeus]

Sam, you make a good point there. Already by having an intenational body like ISSA even if it was just and empty shell could bring out some good things. And I can add another one when wanting sponsors or help for a local slalom competition just by being able to fill in with "the International Skateboard Slalom Association" here and there could certainly help out sometimes.

I don't see a great risk that we are turning towards an Europe vs America dilemma like Donald said. This is however something that could have happened if it wasn't for all those that have crossed the ocean and by that worked for the social communication and contacts that is needed to avoid such scenarios. Looking only on the American side John Gilmour and Dan Gesmer have been such traveling diplomats since way back and are still today with the likes of Kenny Mollica, Richy and Maria Carrasco, Michael Dong, Bruce Brewington, The Gordons (Howard, Dylan and Lauren), Keith Hollien, Steve Olson, Chris Favero, Lynn Kramer, Joe Iacovelli, Bobby Mandarino, Jason Mitchell, Sharon and Alan Sidlo, Farid Abraham and not to forget Vlad Popov (Russia/USA) and Claude Regnier and Mike Cividino from Canada. There are probably others that I have forgot. They have all made a huge step to avoid the alienation that easily builds up without social contact. And that to a prize many times higher than $25. And the same has been done from the European side. It has been much better than my initial hopes. I mean it is also a question of money involved here too that give you good reasons not to do it.

The hope is that ISSA can enforce this feeling that we are all a kind of a family. That we are all skateboarders like Jeff so loudly explains and on this site even more specifically often slalom skateboarders.

[edwin james brockman]

Sam, i've just read your post.
Well put mate!

Edwin (LSD)

[Sam Gordon]

Yeah Corky, Donald, Jeff; like you mean it.

The initial part of my posting was a paraphrasing of a piece that was written against Arab a while back when he was proliferating on NCDSA. It was galling in its arrogance/ patronising stupidity and I had the same reaction as Rich had to my repeat of it.

We had seen such defensive puffing-out of chests before the posting that I could not resist popping in that 'set piece' to further polarise or diffuse. Shamelessly naughty, not too clever. Tremendously fun however. It even contradicted what I went on to offer later in the post. I was expecting the reply of 'yeah, yeah. Heard it all before.'
Rich's response was better than that.

Where the posts of Wahl and Smart have been useful, however, is in revealing the intentions and character of many of the 'investors' (although it should not be regarded as an investment).

Why assistance from the UK to the site?

Firstly to support the work that both Corky and Jani had put towards developing the site and slalom rankings. It is not stuff that I can do myself; however I can show assistance in a small way because it benefits all skaters.

Agree or not with the ranking system (I am far too high in the Ams) it does help to offer global comparison, create rivalry and produce battles that might prove the ranking system wrong. Is that not really the goal of all competitive ladders?

Secondly, and more selfishly, to promote UK racing in both a European and American sphere.

Following a rift between the UKSSA and European skating, the above donation was to work as a tie-line to our continuation in European slalom involvement. To open the door for UK supertight and flatland (for example) to be discussed, considered and included. My votes could be used to reflect the greater UK opinion.

Furthermore, in the UK there is not enough capital for timing systems, ramps, equipment hire, insurance or location rental. All racing is either outlaw or based on goodwill gesture (such as using Brands or Silverstone).

One way to generate such capital is to offer a development plan for funding from the Sports Council. The council demands that there exists an elected, affiliated and approachable body in order for a sport to even be considered. Making the UKSSA more than the efforts of one man is something we are working on, if partly to relieve and share his burden.

If that body is affiliated to an International governing body, then the Sports Council will look at its proposals more seriously, partly because of the possible international PR ramifications. The sport appears globally recognised and therefore 'bonafide.' The UK can offer 'world-class athletes!'

At home then, we are therefore more likely to gain funding for a good timing system, ramps, insurance and race-site. That's a good start for now.

A convoluted way towards simple stuff.

And that is one way that an ISSA might be able to help.

[Jeff Goad]

SKATEBOARDERS

[Donald Campbell]

hopefully this thread won't turn out in a "europe vs. the usa" dilemma.
i often have the feeling that the american side has a deep desire to recive respect in whatever form possible-be it for being american,being a skateboarder-or whatever...
the list is endless.
i really like to treat the good guys with respect,since they show the same to me.
there's quite a few folks out there,in this world,who think like that.
but as always,there's also the few who disrespect anything european,just for the sake of it and for their own selfishness and righteousness.

i PRAY...
that this won't happen here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so pleeeezzzz-lighten up folks,
WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT

even though,some didn't realize it yet

[Hans Koraeus]

The big problem is not understanding author personalities and deep answers behind their reasons of posting. The big problem is sticking to the subject. As long as that is accomplished people may have whatever psychiatric diagnoses as you like. We all have them, more or less, by the way. We can't do anything else but take people by their word and humbly trying to understand them. Something that we will never fully do any day soon.

So not to put myself in the same off topic situation I have now to figure out a way out of this dilemma. Ah, yes!

Don't try figuring out what everybody else want or don't want with the new ISSA. Try figuring out what you yourself want or don't want with it.

[Sam Gordon]

That's about the measure of it, Rich!
Just another pastiche post in a different vein to generate reaction.

All good stuff!


Sam

[Rich Stephens]

Sometimes a response of any sort is the sole intent of aggravated attention seekers. It accentuates a desperate need for self-aggrandissement where only a lack of self-import exists.

Mostly these cheap jibes come across at best as camp and petulent outbursts, at worst as seething points of self-loathing. Both types are dull, ill-considered and witless.

And apparently sometimes a response is made whose intent it is to relish in its own self-righteousness and make pop-psychology declarations on the motivations behind other posts and the people who post them. Such writers fail to see that nothing can be more ill-considered and show more a need of attention based on low self-esteem than their own need to declare themselves judge of other people's thoughts and behavior while holding themselves up as a shining example of properness.

Oh how it must be such a disappointment to such arbiters of taste that the rest of the world isn't as refined and proper as they are nor shares their exact views on topics A thru Z: after all their own viewpoint and methods are clearly and irrefutably the only ones worth having and expressing in public.

[Sam Gordon]

Sometimes a response of any sort is the sole intent of aggravated attention seekers. It accentuates a desperate need for self-aggrandissement where only a lack of self-import exists.

Mostly these cheap jibes come across at best as camp and petulent outbursts, at worst as seething points of self-loathing. Both types are dull, ill-considered and witless.

This site offers a great archival resource for the resurgence in slalom; it also offers an arena for dicussion and development. A place for an exchange of ideas, if you like.

When Jack Smith felt that his portfolio of sports interests would be stretched by including this site, plans were openly discussed and set afoot to make slalomskateborder.com community based. In a short space of time this has been achieved, as much through European interest as through American. International.

Jani is purely trying to fuel interest and field comment on how an interntional oganisation for the promotion of the sport should be progressed.

If you wish to see your ideas implemented then please put forward something positive and bring exciting pospects to the slalom table. Perhaps it should be Cali-centric. Perhaps it should be for under 21s only. Perhaps it should be geared towards the needs of those in retirement resorts. Perhaps it should be for negro slave trannies who touch underage chimps on the Rock of bleeding Gibralta.

It doesn't matter if your missive is ineloquent or ill-considered; it all helps to create the character of the sport, it also possibly energises rivalry and competition.

All that we have done is allow a forum for your voice to be heard.

[Donald Campbell]

attention bill

it seems that we are very similar in approach on handling "delicate" subjects.
basically we all want the same to happen:the growth of the sport.
right?

ok...
what you see here is ONE attempt to achieve that goal

well... your approach on handling that subject is the ASSHOLE way to deal with things.

so i understand that i'm an ass-kisser?
is that what you said?

hey guy-you don't even know me...
so,how come you are so damn sure about that fact?

BILL-who are you?
what is your history-if you got any?
care to explain?

i DO have my history in the german scene- A BIG FAT PART

i know lotsa folks from back in the days in the us-lots of them know me

i NEVER heard about you all the time,until i read that bullshit you are posting here.

so WHO ARE YOU?

on approaching the subject:there's also other ways to do that,than you showed.

give it at least time to grow,before you destroy the idea,verbally...

i really do HOPE that other skaters will join forces-my friends from the UK(i don 't hear you,though i really DO value you comments and input-niall,michael,sam...).
i also want to see you americans here-DEFINITELY

so,PLEASE,bill,don't piss me off from the start.

the german side-investors-only want the utmost positive to happen to the sport.

we are all on the same side-believe me,your comments pissed us off,for the moment.

ah,yes i forgot,we are all top notch when it comes to racing,we all race with high class guys all the time.
you really don't want to see a full fledge euro invasion at morro,do you?

but as i see it,that might happen this year-so gear up and back your shit up.

it seems that you do have a very personal beef with jani-i don't know the background history on that.
i want to start fresh and NOW-nothing else.
so try to avoid calling willing investors ass-lickers or whatever.
you don't know us

just to make this clear-jani is no big buddy of us either.
he seems to have a good idea and we stepped in to help,to-maybe- realize some of the positive goals this idea might bring...

next post from your side-show a different approach and we are more than willing to reflect on your concerns.

[John Gilmour]

Rich, I agree with you on that, I think you can include all of Black Leather racing- which has a great attitude towards racing- They never complain...which makes things easier for promoters.

It is very hard to find an ideal slalom location for a race- so I don't think ISSA would make the suggestion as to what would constitute a course extremely strict- but they would likely try to help steer racers to the better venues for regionals and lesser venues for locals and hopefully some of the best venues for the Continental championships.

Rather than seeing individual racers have to worry about racing issues- it would be a better idea to have a well organized race org of experienced racers help to ensure the best possible racing is available for all ability levels. To be sure the answer there might be just having a good course setter who can maximize the features of a hill. Or it could be in assisting the Promoter in securing a venue and helping to provide information on slalom from a reputable Organization to town officals to help secure the best hill for a race. Or it could be helping to supply Promoters with a pre-prepped set of promotional materials to post up. Whatever I only see ISSA needing to exist to help foster better racing for the racers.

Where ISSA could be of the most help is helping newer promoters throwing regional or local races.

[Rich Stephens]

Racers looking to train for slalom care about what type of start is used- common, independent, chimed, visual indication, push start, ramp start, false start penalties, backstop no back stop, pitch of the ramps height of the ramps, type of transition, the way the starter starts a race, start window size if any ....etc.

I don't know. I'm new to slalom but it sure seems like guys like Olson, Chicken, Mollica, Hackett, don't lose much sleep about the above. Maybe they like to just show up and charge it and not worry about the details. Seems to work for them. And perhaps it encourages a more well-rounded approach to skateboarding, which is perhaps healthier than making slalom so specialized and organized that it becomes something obviously different and apart from other types of skateboarding.

In other words, perhaps it is the grassroots nature of current affairs, and their vareity of "rules" and proceedures, that keep slalom part of the rest of the skateboard world and that if things becomes to codified (i think that's a word) it won't really feel like skateboarding anymore. At the very least it may stiffle creativity in setting courses, choosing locations, equipment (witness the "max wheel size" thread), etc.

I kind of like just throwing something that looks like a skateboard of some sort onto the ground, jumping on, and riding through whatever comes my way. Ah...freedom!

Just a thought...

[John Gilmour]

-Click-
(one goes the light.)

"How can you sleep!" she says

"I'M Sleeping!" he says

"No you're not, I can't sleep!" she says

Every have a fight with a girlfriend? She tells you she is angry. At first it is hard to find out why she is angry at you...she won't tell you at first. Then she has no interest in trying to solve the problem. She just wants to be angry.....first. It takes awhile, but eventually she sits down and discusses things with you. You think the discussion is over...solved. But then she starts up again. She tires you out until you just start mindlessly agreeing, saying "yes" to everything just to get her to be quiet so you can get somepeace and sleep....and a few weeks later you are in the same fight again.

ISSA isn't like that. They sit down- take turns saying what they have to say- people comment and give their reasons- and they vote.

Look - I saw the ISSA in action. It was a good organization that quickly improved. I was at the first meeting and a few others each year- I saw it evolve. There were many different concerns. But most of slalom was represented- (I think British tight slalom could have been better represented...but lacking much British participation there sadly wasn't enough of that.) I do think a New ISSA would welcome the British contribution as well as embrace US slalom completely, and take Japanese slalom seriously. Jani never ruled ISSA with an "Iron fist". In fact some of the decisions carried out by ISSA weren't to his liking but were to the liking of other skilled slalomers. The Swiss had influence, so did the Italians- mostly out of respect for their abilities. And that is probably the way it should be. if California were to vote that would be good- and they would certainly get more consideration for their vote because the Rest of ISSA realizes how important American Manufacturer committment means to the Sport.

It is natural for slalom to evolve. It is in fact the essence of the sport. At first you start with an easy course and as time continues your skills and course difficulty and speeds evolves to be better faster, more impressive.

But different countries are at different points in evolution right now. I don't want to see slalom diverge like the Darwin's finches, but I want too see slalom broaden in terms of the types of courses and hills run- yet have those perameters available to people at contests, and without having widely ranging rules- just ones that Most slalomers feel work for them.

I don't want to see tight flat British slalom at La Costa. And I don't want to see a La Costa style course set on flatland in Moscow's Red Square. I want to see slalom showcased as well as is possible and have each countries best attributes work in concert with the type of slalom we see there.


ISSA should not be an organization for the skateboard companies....that always leads to distortions. It should be an organization for the Racers foremost and for the Organizers secondly. The industry has influence through advertising and choosing what events to sponsor- that is influence enough.

But there should be organization so we don't have 250 different sets of slalom around the globe. We need an organization to represent what counts to racers.

Racers looking to train for slalom care about what type of start is used- common, independent, chimed, visual indication, push start, ramp start, false start penalties, backstop no back stop, pitch of the ramps height of the ramps, type of transition, the way the starter starts a race, start window size if any ....etc.

And that's just the "start" of the beginning.


I don't want to see push starts outlawed or ramps outlawed. But I don't want to see 1 foot high starting ramps....or push starts that are 3/4 of a mile long, or courses that are 5 cones or 200 cones long.

IMHO we need to see top slalomers with experience trying different types of race layouts in practice prior to racing them so they can give their opinions as to what makes a good challenging, exciting and worthwhile competitions for racers/spectators/tv/promoters/sponsors and even non slalom ethusiasts.

Jani got really gung ho about making this an ISSA site which I also was surprised about since I feel that slalomskateboarder represents the individual- not a committee. But he has something very very very right. An International Organization with 20 years of experience will be taken far more seriously and sponsorship and contests should improve as a result.

I do like the herding cats analogy- and basically- slalomers will chose contests based upon organization, prize money, spectators and television coverage and courses (the food). If ISSA helps increase organization, prize money, spectators and media coverage- ....well I think that is great.

-turn off that light will you-

[Jeff Goad]

time for me to move on.

[Troy Smart]

troy, you sound like some upper end lowlife. that right you are.

goad, you sound like some lower life up end. you that the are huh we blap.


Touche.

[Dave Gale]

The rants of one Bwhal is a good poster "boy" for the failure of many ambitious undertakings! Thanks that he's slowed his attack and name calling,maybe now progress will prevail! Jack Smith said it on NCDSA take a moment before you go calling out names and making FALSE accusations Jeez, I'm gonna go kill me sumpin' edible !

[Claude Regnier]

I think that anyone with an open mind can see and understand the benefits of organization. Even the industry organized itself to keep anyone and everything out of it's world. It has now lost it's foothold to corporate biggie's. Sure some of them with survive and do well on their own because so many people support chaos, havoc and so many other forms of shit in your face attitude.

Many of the Pro (some still at the top) were shut down by these same companies. The advantages of organizations and governing body are great and useful if run properly. We have quite a pool of talented, knowledgeable people in the Sport of Slalom Skateboarding. Those that do not wish to participate do not have to.

The USSSF's failure was part due to the lack of support by US skaters and then the money to kickstart and operate it. Andy knows best. There is no huge outlay of cash sought after here. If you want a voice then anti up the big bucks required to do so. Then you can help with the direction of the sport. To simply bitch and complain and call people names doesn't help in the least. It just makes you look like an ass.

Everyone wantsd slalom to grow. Everyone has an opinion on how it should grow. There are a lot of people who have already done some great work to make it happen. Support it or don't it's your choice.

If you want a vote join. If Not?

[Hans Koraeus]

Pat

So instead of herding the cats, why not herd the cat food?

I agree with a lot of what you say Pat. Skateboarders want to be free. It's often one of the reasons we all started skateboarding. But there is more to it. Do you really think skaters will be more positive to be governed by and association of skateboard companies? They do exist today but it does ring a bell. We who are old enough have been through such times and they where not always positive. Ok, there where some exceptions like parents to their skating children who made things happen (like Hawks father for example) and others. Companies are ok as long as their are strong skate hearts in there but when things get big (and money gets big) the skate hearts tranform into a business hearts. And when their is no money to be made on you (slalom) they will put you in the trash can. And I don't really condemn them for doing it. That is only natural. But it should also be natural that we the skaters ourselves take a big part in the control of our own sport. That's the skate spirit for me. A part that is built on the ethics of the sport itself and nothing else.

We shouldn't see skateboarders as one homogene group. Just look at snowboarding. I don't give a shit about the international governing body there. I snowboard and have always have fun doing it my way since before snowboards could be bought. There was a fun inital period of competitions with much of the skate spirit in it. Jani and I even entered the first snowboard World Championship in St Moritz (SUI) and Livigno (ITA) back in the days. Soon things started to get too serious for our taste and we started to call ourselves the worlds first retired snowboard racers. And we hade our plate full already with skateboard dishes. But we kept on going to some competitions but only to have fun and meet friends. Sound familiar? Same will happen with slalom racing. There is nothing that says you can't have one without the other. There will always be racers who want to race seriously and they need some governing body. Those who just do it for the fun what do they care. They will continue doing their thing and both groups will be happy. We are not trying to herd those who do not want it. For me personally i like both of those groups and you can. But there are those who will also want to be only in one of them and that is ok too. The thing is that one group should not work against the other. We will just go parallell. Something that we slalomers shouldn't be unfamiliar with.

[Hans Koraeus]

Steve,

I think the point here is respect for those individuals who have become the de-facto leaders in the sport during a period with no governing organization. Without those individuals there can not be any legitimate development towards organization.

I agree with Pat that there can be a legitimate international organization even though some will decide to not support it. But of course everybody's wish is that as many as possible will. You list me those de-facto leaders you are talking about and we will see how many of them will choose not to support a new international body. We are in a startup period so it's too early to say yet who will be in and who will not. The final list of those who want to support it will be listed in the beginning next year. Maybe Jani will even make a current member list before that.

I believe my good friend Bill is raising the issue (among others) that our region, which includes perhaps the largest number of great slalomers of any region, is very under-represented. Who can disagree?

It's too early to say yet if a region is underrepresented or not so there is nothing to agree or disagree on yet. The mission is to get everybody the chance to make a stand. When the official press release goes out to the world that will be the start. And then noone (slalom skater) should be able to say he/she didn't know. So help get the word out in your local regions. Now we need internal discussion, lobbying and voices heard. People can be against it, that is ok. I respect Bill and everybody else who make their points. I respect all skaters even though I don't agree with their points. In the end there will be exactly as many representing their region as there are people who want to do just that. If they are underrepresented it's not the fault of anyone but themselves. Californians, Russians, Italians or you name it. And for me personally I don't see it as a senate where each senator should work for his own region. I'm not in favor for ISSA because I want to promote Stockholm, Sweden or Europe. I'm in it for the World of skateboard slalom. I hope it will bring good to us all. Even those regional skaters who have no representative at all.

I'm a nobody in this sport.

Wrong! On this forum we are all somebody. Only when not posting in your name you are nobody.

I also agree that soliciting funds, beyond the currently existing needs of site maintenance, is premature without a good plan. The plan comes first.

I don't understand. First we get critizised for starting without some people. And then we get critizised for not having a good plan. How can we have a plan without any people? There is no plan until we have people on who wants to work for a plan. Nothing has started yet so there can be no plan yet. When we start officially we will all work out the plan.

You already have a good start. Slow down and get the rest before going further. At least that's what I humbly suggest.

Yes maybe we have a good start. But the starting up period is not finished yet. We should not slow down. We should speed up. Get the word out as fast as possible. We can't go any further until we have the official start. Sure it's like buying the the pig in the sack (Swedish saying not knowing what you will get for your money). But it is does show your faith in something and that is something I will always respect people of. Perhaps we are in a hen and egg situation. But instead of wondering what should come first let us create an egg and see what comes out of it.

[Pat Chewning]

I think one of the basic problems in ANY attempt to organize skateboarders is that in general skateboarders don't want to be organized. Especially skateboarders in the USA! Even attempts to form a USA country organization have failed over the last 2 years.

I swear, organizing skateboarders is like herding cats!

So instead of herding the cats, why not herd the cat food?

By this I mean that the target market of the ISSA might not initially be ALL of the slalom skateboarders, but perhaps just those who put on the races. The race organizers. The promoters, the sponsors, those who are naturally inclined to be organized and can benefit the most from the structure of the ISSA.

It's not necessarily the best skaters who put on the best events. In fact, I would say that it is a very rare person who has enough time and energy to do both very well (a delightful exception to the rule being Gary Fluitt). Organizing a skateboard race requires a totally different set of talents than skating down the course. Some of us can organize well, some of us can race well.

I'm not advocating IGNORING input from the top racing talent. I'm just saying that it is not neccesary to have all of the big names on-board to make the ISSA successful. If the ISSA offers race organizers something to make the events bigger, better, more thrilling, sexier, more lucrative $$$$, and gives more exposure -- then the racers will benefit.

If the most attractive races are ISSA races, then the racers will come....

So next topic: What should the ISSA offer to race organizers? Why would a race organizer/promoter want to be part of the ISSA?

[Jeff Goad]

Euro fags

upper end lowlife.

[Jeff Goad]

NOT kooks like Goad who don't attend races

what

[Steve Collins]

I think the point here is respect for those individuals who have become the de-facto leaders in the sport during a period with no governing organization. Without those individuals there can not be any legitimate development towards organization. It is true that a number of significant individuals from around the globe have been named and listed above. I believe my good friend Bill is raising the issue (among others) that our region, which includes perhaps the largest number of great slalomers of any region, is very under-represented. Who can disagree?

I'm a nobody in this sport. I just want to skate. No organization is required to fulfill my needs. Still, I will participate in and support the developing organization.

I also agree that soliciting funds, beyond the currently existing needs of site maintenance, is premature without a good plan. The plan comes first. The plan needs to be reviewed, modified and agreed upon by the sport's leaders before money is sought to implement it. You simply can not move forward, intending to speak for the sport, without the inclusion of the sport's leaders. You already have a good start. Slow down and get the rest before going further. At least that's what I humbly suggest.

[Hans Koraeus]

Troy, I see you try to create some middle ground here but what is the middle ground with someone who don't respect his slalom brothers and call them all kind of things? ISSA is not supposed to be a cool mans club. It is open for everyone. Cool guys, old guys, beginners, non-skaters, dorks and yes even homosexuals. All who wants to support or work for the international slalom community.

Who is the ISSA?

All people who cares about slalom skateboarding and who thinks that something good will come out of having an international governing body for our sport.

Who appointed them?

This is the great thing. You appoint yourself. If you believe in this and want to support or work for it there are no limits.

Just what do they have to do with most slalom racers?

Most of them are slalom racers. Some are also skaters in general. Some in the future maybe will not be. But they will all support or work for the slalom sport and all those who enter competitions. So they have a lot to do with most slalom racers. And maybe even those who doesn't even race but only do freeriding and slalom for fun.

You can't just declare yourselves the governing body of a sport, make rules, etc. and not try and include the people who basically founded it or most of the people who participate.

Stop saying that we are not trying to include people. We are in the middle of this phase right now. And we need all the help we can get. From all of you. If you think there are people missing what do you do about it? It's simple. You spread the word and try to lobby for it. We want to include everyone but its up to each one to make up his/her own mind. And if $25 bucks is the barrier and you still want to work for the cause you would probably even be invited in. Help us getting the word out. Nobody should be able to come one year from now saying "I didn't know about this".

And please tell me who founded our sport. I'm truly very interested. But frankly it doesn't matter. What matters is who cares about the sport now. And who will care about it in the future. It's true that you can sometimes tell by those who have passed the dark ages of skateboarding and slalom itself. Those who still slalom now and still did it in the 90's and the 80's. Those should be seen as very respected people in the slalom community. After the 70's boom when each and everybody skated there came some very hard years for skateboarding in general. If looking at slalom alone Jani was one ot the major forces to keep the sport going. And when slalom was litterarly even "kicked out" by the skateboard community itself Jani didn't throw in the towel. He created ISSA together with those who still saw slalom as their favorite skateboarding discipline. He started the Slalom! magazine (internet did not exist to communicate between slalomers at the time). And it hold up the scene up to 1995. Gilmour can tell you what slalom scene the States had during this period. The Europeans have some slalom history to be truly proud of. For all of us to be proud of. So when you say...

Especially if you are European.

I type that at the risk of seeming politically incorrect but it's the truth nonetheless.

Wahl is pissed because some Euro fags are trying to take over the sport and turn it into something it never should be.

And in a lot of ways he's right.

...you have a lot to catch up in your slalom history class.

But, if you absolutely must regiment every little thing to do with slalom, try being a little more subtle. Or a lot more subtle.

How can it be more subtle. We have been waiting for 9 long years. (Since 1995) And since slalom started to take on in the beginning of the 2000's, we waited. We had all the ideas. We knew it was needed but the slalom community was not ready. This forum was started but the slalom community was not ready. We waited. We started to organize and discuss international subjects on this forum. We waited. It started to be a great international competition scene going in 2003. We waited. End of 2003 we started to revive the old world ranking in an attempt to hype up the international scene. In 2004 we put out a new Slalom! magazine with the same reason. Now after the 2004 season things are continuing going up for our sport and many good signs are seen for our near future. If you expect us to wait until every single skater is ready we could wait until the dawn of time. At some point we have to take a chance and try to do something. Now is a perfect time. Slalom has every chance to get big again and we should be ready for it and take every chance we get to support it.

Are you ready?

[Troy Smart]

Wahl has a point. (even though he comes across as a complete asshole).

Who is the ISSA?
Who appointed them?
Just what do they have to do with most slalom racers?

You can't just declare yourselves the governing body of a sport, make rules, etc. and not try and include the people who basically founded it or most of the people who participate.

These people are SKATEBOARDERS.
You can't do what you are trying to do without expecting a huge, flying, two fingered F U.

Especially if you are European.

I type that at the risk of seeming politically incorrect but it's the truth nonetheless.

Wahl is pissed because some Euro fags are trying to take over the sport and turn it into something it never should be.

And in a lot of ways he's right.

But, if you absolutely must regiment every little thing to do with slalom, try being a little more subtle. Or a lot more subtle.

[Vlad Popov]

Look but don't touch.
Touch but don't taste.
Taste but don't swallow.
Love but ignore.

[Rick Stanziale]

Learn to ignore.

where's the love?

Wahl contradicts himself throughout his rants, I enjoy reading them both on NCDSA and here at the ISSA's Forum for the international slalom community.

[Vlad Popov]

Learn to ignore.

[Daniel Poweleit]

Bill!

Do you know me? Do you know Donald Campbell? Do you know Heiko? Do you?

Why do you call us "pussies", "lurkers" and "cheerleaders"?

I for myself do skateboarding since 25 years, Donald too! Heiko is a little bit younger.
I for myself am a business-man but with no relation to skateboarding.
Donald instead has a skateboard related own business. Heiko too!

I for myself have not kissed anyones ass, Donald and Heiko too!

Instead, we have asked Jani what that ISSA has to do with this forum, because we
germans have made bad experiences with associations like that and we only wanted
to keep this forum alive. We three have discused this item.

Jani, then told us that the ISSA has to become a real new association where all items
are open and new to disuss.

And that was the point where we said that this could be a chance to create something
new. Made from Skateboarder for Skateboarder.

And you are pissed, because of little 25$, because you are at this forum only twice a year and have not recogniced that something has changed and because this forum was choosen to be the one where the ISSA has got its home? Poor boy! You are the one and
only slalomer in the middle of the universe? And everybody has to tell you first?

Please stop crying. Be with us or not. And if not then shut up!

/Daniel
a little light from Germany who wants to push skateboardslaloming with his little mind.

[Bill Wahl]

The first I hear from ISSA is from an email asking for money. I see no discussion on NCDSA and I see the same narrow minded regulars in this forum who have little or no impact in slalom skateboarding. I skate regularly with some of the worlds top racing pros. Some of whom are business owners and have a specific interest in the future of slalom and skateboarding in general. We discuss this site and various topics in these forums as well as NCDSA. I can only tell you that they as well as myself would jump aboard and be part of the ISSA if there was some respected individuals leading the way. NOT kooks like Goad who don't attend races and who spend most of the time talking shit and not offering any intellegent communication. Jani you need alternative thinking individuals who don't kiss ass and who don't behave like the majority of your girlfriends here in this forum. Try asking some questions and reach out and be resourceful before you start making big decisions and asking for money. Consider speaking with business owners and experienced slalom racers. Move above and beyond this weak forum and all your little girlfriends that will only keep you from being successful. Just some names that I think might be helpful in leading others to your cause would be. Mollica, Deck, Evans, Olson, Hackett, Carrasco. You need racers who are respected and offer some diversity. Not little girls like Goad. People with marketing knowledge and alternative ideas. I'm willing to help. Not hurt the ISSA. But don't expect me to sit back like many lurkers and pussys and not speak my mind. YOU need that even if it doesn't agree with you and your cheerleaders.

[Rick Stanziale]

Two of my favorite skaters butting heads.

Here's my take....

Wahl is pissed because Concrete Wave misspelled his name and then (to add insult to injury) started selling the mag at Wal-Mart (another thorn in Billy's side).

gOAd, he's just all about being in the headlines.......the sooner slalom gets on television, the better for gOAd to be involved.

In the meantime, I suggest you settle it at Kona in March.

[Jeff Goad]

Especially someone as narrow minded as Jeff Goad.

[Jani Soderhall]

...ASK QUESTIONS. Don't assume you and your investors list know best.

Bill,

I don't pretend I know best, that's why I haven't sugggested we revive the ISSA any earlier. In 2004 I've seen that interest has escalated as to some kind of common sense agreements within the sport for many reasons:

- to help contest organizers fend off protests from angry skaters who try to turn the lack of
rules to their own advantage.
- to help contest organizers, by not wasting time writing down common sense guidelines
- look into possibilities to promote the sport and widen the horizon
- act as a common body towards the outside world
- create/maintain a reference website where newbies can go and find information

I could have done this earlier and I could have done it later. It just happened to feel like the opportunity was there. Jack didn't have the time or knowledge needed to keep this site going. Rather than see it disappear a group stepped in to keep it alive. Since then many others have joined. We've got enough support now to run the site for another year and I predict it'll be easy to keep it going for much longer just with the current users. Most people who stepped up, didn't have a set agenda, they were just anxious to make sure the site stayed put. Some may even be sceptic to the ISSA, but most are ready to give it a try. If it fails, or there's no need for it, it'll just disappear anyway.

I think it would be in the ISSA's best interest to completely toss out the initial implemented ideas, voting allocations etc....

The voting system is so basic, I don't think it needs criticism. Anybody is allowed in - that seems the most fair to me. Each vote counts as much. We're no longer in desperate need for money, but payment is a system to show that you care. Don't worry about the people currently on the list, their power will quickly diminish as the group is further widened. We just had to start somewhere.

Open a forum on NCDSA and/or possibly even a neutral site and ASK QUESTIONS.

The NCDSA is a great place for the latest news stuff, but I can't see the format being used for structured discussions. This is now a neutral site. Forget about the history. We just used the place because it has a registered user base. Like that we can start the discussion among people who are already visiting. You should see this site as a "new site". I guess we should have made a public announcement on the NCDSA and other sites, but this is really a bottom up approach, not a top down approach.

Your efforts are good and genuine, but you really need to look to the worlds top slalom racers and ask their opinions.
...
It is highly unlikely that you will get any money if you do not have a business plan or ANY plan.

Somebody had to put a basic structure in place, so I did. We now have the forum, we have a voting system - now we just need to get the right people online. It's happening with Mollica, Jack Smith, Keith Hollien, Noah Heinle and Gary Fluitt supporting the initial efforts. How about yourself?

You need US skaters to take you seriously. You need the best in the world to feel comfortable joining ISSA and contributing to ISSA.

...get the majority of slalom racers involved. Particularly the ones that still race and have some business knowledge. Start this idea off right.

To help us get a better composition at the start I'd be ready to pay with my own money for four seats to those who would best represent the USA in your opinion. My votes would go to Richy Carrasco, Steve Evans, David Hackett and Lynn Kramer (+Eric Groff who already has a vote). Who's on your list?

/Jani

[Hans Koraeus]

Bill, you're such a humble guy.

(Jani) You are clueless. No idea what it takes to bring skateboarders together.

Sure, that's why he was a very well appreciated president of the European Skateboard federation in it's days. If you would have done your homework you would never had come close to say those words.

The world ranking is thought of as a joke by almost every top US competitor

You should not blame Jani for that. I guess I am to be blamed for that "joke". I would love too see your list of those top US competitors that you are talking for. Unless you do so you are only talking for yourself.

You are laughed at by many US skaters.

Again, speak for yourself. Don't try to pretend your are many.

The future of slalom racing is now in the hands of ISSA and all the flunkies on your weak list.

Then convince yourself and your fellow slalom brothers to join and to make the list stronger.

Open a forum on NCDSA and/or possibly even a neutral site and ASK QUESTIONS.

This is that neutral site you are asking for. And if you want to open an ISSA forum on ncdsa you are welcome to do so as are anyone else on any other forum who wants to discuss ISSA regionally. And questions are asked here. First question: Are you ready to work for the slalom community together with your fellow slalom brothers around the world?

don't assume you and your investors list know best

He doesn't assume he knows the best. That's why he wants you and others to join.

Don't even assume skaters know to come to this weak web site. You need US skaters to take you seriously.

Weak or not, this is the site ISSA will use. And it is used by US skaters too. A lot.

You need the best in the world to feel comfortable joining ISSA and contributing to ISSA. It is highly unlikely that you will get any money if you do not have a business plan or ANY plan. People like to know where their cash is going and who's pocket it is in.

Sure. Give me a list of "the best in the world" and we will try to convince them. It's a question of trust that is true.

Any Olympic goals should be treated seriously and very much like a business.

That's why we need an International Skateboard Slalom Association (ISSA).

Your efforts are good and genuine, but you really need to look to the worlds top slalom racers and ask their opinions. Not by sending an email out asking for money with rules already in place

There are no rules in place and we try to get as many aboard as possible because we want everybody's opinion.

Skateboarding will transcend you and this weak website. It does not need you Jani.

Unfortunatley (in your case) this site do need Jani. He is the one knowing best the nuts and bolts of this forum. Without him it sure would have been a mess.

Feel blessed that you are part of it and stop kissing ass to your investors and close friends and get the majority of slalom racers involved. Particularly the ones that still race and have some business knowledge.

I like your idea. Let's all help out getting the the majority of slalom racers involved. I trust you are making your part Bill.

[Claude Regnier]

Bill you are cluless. Sorry to see you are so stuck! Where ever that place may be.

Good Luck on the site and the plan to everyone involved now and in the future.

[Bill Wahl]

Jani,

I think it would be in the ISSA's best interest to completely toss out the initial implemented ideas, voting allocations etc....Open a forum on NCDSA and/or possibly even a neutral site and ASK QUESTIONS. don't assume you and your investors list know best. Don't even assume skaters know to come to this weak web site. You need US skaters to take you seriously. You need the best in the world to feel comfortable joining ISSA and contributing to ISSA. It is highly unlikely that you will get any money if you do not have a business plan or ANY plan. People like to know where their cash is going and who's pocket it is in. Any Olympic goals should be treated seriously and very much like a business. Your efforts are good and genuine, but you really need to look to the worlds top slalom racers and ask their opinions. Not by sending an email out asking for money with rules already in place. I see very few people on your list that I will follow into battle. Especially someone as narrow minded as Jeff Goad. Skateboarding will transcend you and this weak website. It does not need you Jani. Feel blessed that you are part of it and stop kissing ass to your investors and close friends and get the majority of slalom racers involved. Particularly the ones that still race and have some business knowledge. Start this idea off right. Don't let it be a failing mess like the World Ranking system

[Jeff Goad]

[quote="Bill Wahl"]Jani,

You are clue

[Jani Soderhall]

Bill,

You're right, I might be clueless and it's true that I do not have an agenda. That's why this is cool. My idea is just "let's do something together". This forum is where we start. Don't worry about the ISSA word. It means nothing, it's history now. The new term ISSA just represents the way we get together in these days - here at the forum.

Payment was a natural way to determine who's interested enough to participate. Other systems like one vote per area/country or whatever would probably cause more criticism.

The question is not what I am going to do with the money. I will try to withdraw as soon as I can. Probably somebody else with less of a history will better represent the new ISSA. The money should be used for whatever the community decides to do with it, to start with make sure the forum stays alive. John and others have voiced some ideas and it would be cool to try out a few. I'm ready to use some of my money to give it a try. There are others too and more coming. Most are "clueless", but ready to give it a try.

I'd say it's a bit early for anyone to be against this attempt, unless it's personal against me as I'm in the middle of the current action. In a way it would have been better to start this discussion on a completely new site, but it seemed suitable to do it here where there's already a solid base of visitors. It could have been done on NCDSA, but structured discussions seems hard to accomplish there.



The new ISSA will be nothing without broad support, and if there is time will tell. It'll also depend on the ideas brought forward and what the community decides to do with them. Good ideas, community support, actions taken and the outcome of actions taken will ultimately determine the success of the new ISSA.

I'd really appreciate if you'd be prepared to participate on a regular basis to know what you'd like to see and do for the sport. I'll pay your membership if you want to participate as a voting member. Of course, there's no need to pay to raise your voice, but ultimately we intend to use the votes to vote on critical issues (for example those that means we'll use some of the money).

Your comments are welcome and has already led to improvements of this site and the ranking system and I'm looking forward to get to know you better.

/Jani

[Bill Wahl]

Jani,

You are clueless. No idea what it takes to bring skateboarders together. The world ranking is thought of as a joke by almost every top US competitor and you think by offering skaters the opportunity to buy votes that will make a difference? You admit not even having a plan for the money yet, but you do not hesitate to ask for it. You are laughed at by many US skaters. Your plan to hand over your failing ideas to those on the investors list is a bad call and completley clueless. Slalom skateboarding/racing deserves better. The future of slalom racing is now in the hands of ISSA and all the flunkies on your weak list. Sad.