The New ISSA 2004 - Relaunch 2006

[Jani Soderhall]

As the current president of the ISSA I have made the decision to give away ISSA to a new group of decision makers.

- The previous country coordinators and collaborators of ISSA gets one vote each.
- Every monthly sponsor of this forum 2003-2004 obtains one vote for each month they sponsored.
- The eight current site shareholders obtains 3 votes each.
- Every future contribution to ISSA of $25 gives you one vote.
- Nobody can have more than 5 votes (but you're welcome to pay more).

The more voters the better. What the surplus money will be used for will be decided by the voters.

My intention is to let SlalomSkateboarder.com and ISSA go hand in hand into the future.

What this group of racers will do to the ISSA I don't know. I just hope that this is the right way to promote the sport.

/Jani

[Jani Soderhall]

SlalomSkateboarder.com Investors (3 votes each)

Daniel Gesmer, USA
Jack Smith, USA
Daniel Poweleit, Germany
Sam Gordon, UK
John Gilmour, USA
Donald Campbell, Germany
Heiko Schöller, Germany
Jani Söderhäll, Sweden/France


ISSA Coordinators (1 vote each)

Josef Stefka, Czech Republic
Petr Cervinka, Czech Republic
Max Bimler, Germany
Mike Ernst, Germany
Martin Sweeney, UK
Chris Linford, UK
Erik Raitviir, Estonia
Kaupo Kukli, Estonia
Dieter Fleischer, France
Jean-Michel Attia, France
Gianluca Ferrero, Italy
Jun Yokoyama, Japan
Gints Gailitis, Latvia
Valdis Sermols, Latvia
Anatoly Matsukevich, Russia
Aleksey Makarov, Russia
Yuriy Fomin, Russia
Jani Söderhäll, Sweden
Daniel Ridoli, Switzerland
André Sidler, Switzerland
Stanislav Mironenko, Ukraina
John Gilmour, USA
Daniel Gesmer, USA
Adam Trahan, USA
Hans Koraeus, Sweden

Names colored Olive are not registered here and unlikely to participate at this moment. I will try to contact those that I have current contact details of.

SlalomSkateboarder.com monthly sponsors 2003-2004 (1 vote per month)

Joe Iacovelli, USA
Howard Gordon, USA
Howard Gordon, USA
Howard Gordon, USA
Eric Groff, USA
Vlad Popov, Russia/USA
Sam Gordon, UK
David Gale, USA
Rick Stanziale, USA
Rick Stanziale, USA
Rick Stanziale, USA
Steve Collins, USA
Matthew Wilson, USA
Gary Fluitt, USA

[Daniel Gesmer]

In my opinion, it is high time for slalom to once again have the guidance and support of a truly representative international governing body. In the 1980s and early 1990s, the ISSA, often under the direction of Jani Soderhall, was of invaluable service to the European slalom scene. I can think of no more positive development than the ISSA's revival at a time when slalom is once again thriving not just in Europe but in America as well. We are especially fortunate that Jani has agreed to lead the organization for the next year. He is not just a friend of mine, but one of the classiest, most intelligent, and most dignified individuals on the scene.

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

Hi Jani,

I think Ridoli and Sidler aren't involved in the swiss slalom scene anymore. We asked them 4 years ago before the second grueningen contest for help, but they said they had finished with slalom.

I don't know if you have other information of them...

[Jani Soderhall]

Jadranko,

For sure Ridoli and Sidler is no longer skating, or care about skating, but I thought it was correct to offer all those who were previously representing the ISSA to be involved.

There are many other country representatives that are not currently interested in
the current slalom scene.

To actually vote, you will need to be registered here at the site, so I could add a symbol next to each person, so that we know if they are likely to vote or not.

More important than the current list though is to increase this list. It's up to you, me and everyone to get the new ISSA group correctly set up.

/Jani

[Daniel Gesmer]

Didn't he compete in the 2003 Antibes race?

[Donald Campbell]

I think we might need two new German coordinators, Bimler and Ernst don't seem to be as active as desired.
How about Daniel Poweleit and another "ACTIVE" racer from Germany?

[Jani Soderhall]

I think we might need two new German coordinators, Bimler and Ernst don't seem to be as active as desired.

Donald,

The new ISSA doesn't have country coordinators. Maybe one day it should, but at the moment it felt wrong to say that every country would get equal votes or so and I was too lazy to try to invent a really clever system that would take into account all aspects such as: size of country, size of market, size of activity and all other factors that would have to be taken into account.

Country coordinators made sense back then because differences between countries and their traditions were big. Today such differences exist, but we all seem open to try new things. And it's all moving at a faster pace. We need a system that is adapted to todays situation.

Bimler and Ernst just got a "free" vote, because I made the dictator decision to give away "the ISSA" to todays modern community. I thought it was fair to give them a chance to vote in future decisions.


As we gather support and momentum for the new ISSA it'll be time to attack the real questions of what it should become.

Now is the time to act and say "yeah, let's do something"!
You've done so and we're grateful for your participation.


For this organization to become useful for us all we need to gather support also from those who are not presently active on this forum, and may even have had objections to the "old ISSA" or the "old SlalomSkateboarder.com". Time for a change!

/Jani

[Jani Soderhall]

Didn't he compete in the 2003 Antibes race?

No, neither Ridoli, nor Sidler have competed during the last couple of years. They were both in Gruningen in 2002 but they were discouraged to the see the kind of cone distances that were used there (and then). I tried to talk Ridoli into making the 5 km drive for the 2003 event, but he didn't want to do it. It seemed there would be a chance to get him out of his retirement, but I haven't tried since then.

/Jani

[Hans Koraeus]

Ridoli came by the 2003 Grüningen race. I talked to him and he did do some slalom skating with his son but it was not high priority of course. And when he was looking at the 2003 Grüningen special slalom course he actually thought it looked good.

Someone give away a nice slalomboard to his son and I'll bet we will se the Ridoli's in a slalom competition soon.

[John Gilmour]

My thoughts for what it's worth. (and it's not like I had that much experience in slaloming in Europe- just a few comps.)

In the USA we have had poorly run regional slalom contests for years. But with Skateboarder magazine and some USA organizations we managed to get a somewhat recognizeable format down- likely better thanEurope did in the early years.

ISSA was a response to chaos in the late 1980's in European slalom competitions.
Contests would have ramps or no ramps , timed starts, open starts, independent timing, handheld stop watch timing, Common starts, false start penalties...etc...

The most troubling thing about slalom in Europe was likely that the courses were so different and that there was no cone standard. Some courses woud use narrow tall cones- other short fat cones- it made preparing for a contest season very difficult .


Courses could range from 1 meter cones on center for 100 cones- to courses as short as 15 cones at 2-3 meters. Timing strips would be set at random distances from the first cone and the last. Course lengths were arbitrary.

What ISSA and SLALOM! Magazine brought to Europe was a format. Slalom! magazine was likely more important to the success of the slalom scene in Europe than the formation of ISSA.

I say this Mostly because the ISSA rules were still around, but when Publishing of SLALOM! Ceased slalom died pretty quickly. The rules were not enough to keep the sport going.

I think communication about the slalom scene evidently was more important that the rules.

But that is not to say that an organized format isn't valuable. The organized ISSA format- while not being IDEAL for any slalomer was acceptable by MOST. And that was why it was adopted- because it allowed fair participation by all countries in Europe. If you came from a flat land region, you could be competitive, and if you came from a hilly region- likely you wouldn't be faced with flatland slalom when you traveled.


So ISSA's role in communication- it isn't really needed. Any BBS can replace that. Just good content is what is needed and is provided by nearly everyone who posts on this site and others.

In fact- in the past there was a community of skaters starving for content on slalom. Now With Riderz.net, NCDSA.com, slalomskateboarder.com, Ukssa , the AJSA TAC (slalom in Japan)
for photos see-

http://www.geocities.jp/tkaneda103/renewal.html

We are faced with not enough centralization of information to put together a good contest calender easily.

The problem as I see it- with Riderz.net evolving slalom in French, AJSA evolving in Japanese, and UKSSA, NCDSA and UKSSA evolving in English, there is a potential for slalom to diverge again.

I certainly don't think it will be as bad as having such a wide range of slalom disciplines and different cones and timing rules as before. But we could have a different type of slalom evolve on each Continent. Even within the English speaking sites of UKSSA and NCDSA and Slalomskateboarder you can see a preference for different types of slalom. now don't jump on me boys... Ncdsa slalom (USA WEST) is wider less technical- and slower in relation to the gate spacing than Slalomskateboarder.com (More Eastern Slalom) and The starts for UKSSA are push starts (which I like as it emulates practice and allows for a contest venue to be more easily moved/managed) and very technical- though perhaps a little slower than Eastern Slalom with a penchant for ultra tight tech.(which I think is cool to watch- even though I wouldn't want to train for it).

I don't want to see divergence. I can think
of the problems of FIS and USSA snowboard associations- we certaininly don't need the quagmire or separate race orgs.

So you can imagine if we have differences evolving in the SAMElanguage- what could happen in DIFFERENT languages- park slalom in Japan for instance was a "Compacted/compartmentalized" version of other slalom. Though Japan's GS looks a lot llike California GS.


Of course if we want slalom to be the fun sport it is- we should expect travel to be one of the things that makes it special. Look at Kenny Mollica's face at any competition he is at (there is ZERO OHIO slalom so he has to travel to EVERY competition) and I think it is fair to say that almost ANYWHERE is more interesting than OHIO. Kenny's smile says it all. Traveling to slalom competitons can be some of the Best days of your life.

Traveling to slalom competitions can also be extremely frustrating if you arrive and the format is completely different or poorly described/not as described (so you brought the wrong board), rules are different, ramps/start gates/timing chime weird/ start box differently sized- backstop- or no backstop or push start length different, surface poor (or for some - so good that that they never developed the body angualtion skills needed to take full advantage of a good surface- and they are outgunned).


Having a developed format that people understands helps remove the frustration of being "unprepared" and ENSURES maximum fun and ENSURES few if any unpleasant surprises at a slalom competition.

So we do need coordiantion on formats- but with enough latitude to keep slalom enjoyable for everyones "particular slalom discipline favorite". The best way to do this not too strictly define a format and to require an adequate description fo the format and course- and rate the description for accuracy AT the race. Only then will our descriptive skills get good enough so people will feel comfortable to travel with full confidence (many of my early contests were a crap shoot). Airfares are so cheap now....we for once should be able to get some momentum in travel for slalom.


So to start- I think trying to resurrect a group of advanced level slalomers from different countries to define the sport of slalom is a good idea. I don't think they should all be "Old guard slalomers" I would for instance be very happy to see an accomplished newbie give his thoughts as they are freshest- the name that comes to mind is Jason Mitchell for the USA. I am sure there are European counterparts like Jason.

Having representatives from Each country with a equal vote is good. I think that the proposals to ammend slalom's format should be equally considered no matter how small the country's slalom base that reccommends the change. I do think that slalom enjoyment for the MAJORITY of slalomers in EACH SKILL CLASS LEVEL should be considered strongly before enacting a change.

[Jack Smith]

In the USA we have had poorly run regional slalom contests for years.

What era are you talking John? What region? How many "regional" contests did you attend during that time?

I'm just curious.

[John Gilmour]

I'm refering to contests in the 1970's that were locally run contests often by people with no contest experience whatsoever- just a bunch of parents trying to pull it off with no rules or templates to work off of.

This was unfortunately more the norm than the exception. The more contests people threw- they better they got at it. Unfortunately most people didn't do more than 2. I went to contests in Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Manhattan. Best contests were typically thrown by ski racers.

I am not referring to your contests ( MB 2001 was to suit the average ability level- though the course was not as described....nothing you could do about it as it was already set- and by Henry whose course setting style is very different- hell I even helped mirror it.....lol.) The first contest that I attended which felt run in its entirety by you was Cambria- and it was much better run than most contests of that size (the TS was a true TS). Catalina was also one that you seemed to have a lot of control over (Again the TS was a true TS)- and most remember that one as being one of the best- I liked it a lot. I certainly never attended any contests thrown by you in the 1970's. Though I must compliment you that your contests still get better everytime. The only thing I wish you still did was the golf club party before MB2001- that was very cool.

I would be interested to hear what Wesley's experience in the South was like- he attended a great many contests. And of course I would like to know what Mandarino's contests were like as well- as others from the rest of the USA.

[Wesley Tucker]

Well, since you asked.

It's not fair to say "most" races. It's more accurate to say "ALL" races back in the day fell into two categories: skate park contests and local festival contests. The park contests were usually events promoted, organized and ran by the skate park staff. The "festival" events were usually run by local non-profit groups trying to do something interesting for the sake of doing something interesting. My race that I held in Summerville during the Flowertown Festival was supported by the local Sertoma Men's Club. The race down in Beaufort, SC at the Water Festival was organized by the Kiwanis Club. Another race I attended was in Columbia SC during during some festival and I do remember the volunteers being members of the local Shrine Temple.

Coincidentally, it sounds like Jack Smith just had one of these kinds of races in conjunction with some doings in Santa Barbara. Trust me when I say I'm not bragging when I say I have yet to race in the 21st Century in front of a crowd that begins to equal in any way what we used to see 25 years ago. At the Flowertown Festival here in Summerville our race track was in the middle of an arts and crafts festival that annually attracts 300,000 people over the course of the weekend. We probably had 3,000 spectators lining the street during the course of the afternoon. The same is true of the Water Festival in Beaufort.

These were all fun and I think the oldest person I ever saw race was maybe 20 or 21. NO ADULTS back in those days.

The park contests were almost ways a TREMENDOUS DISAPPOINTMENT to anyone who was serious about slalom. Usually someone would set up 10 or 15 straight cones in the bottom of a bowl/bank run and you'd come off a bank into the course and scorch it for a time. I don't think there was ever a race in a park that had enough room for dual racing.

The festival races were just the opposite. It was always dual, always in the street and usually some easy hybrid-style course. The drawback was we never had a timing system! We'd usually just have one of the Shriners or Sertomans stand at the finish line and declare a winner. This wasn't that much of a challenge because as I recall the racing was no where as close as it is today.

As far as rules are concerned, believe it or not we had a sanctioning body that issued a rule book. The United States Amateur Skateboarding Association was an effort to organize not only slalom, but also freestyle and park riding contests. If I remember it cost $10 to join. The USASA was the reason, though, we tolerated all that lousy stuff at the skateboard parks. Just like today's America's Cup, the USASA had overall champions at the end of the year. So you attended as many events as possible to get as many points as you could. So for every decent street race there were probably three races at some lousy concrete park in Bugtustle run by guys who could care less about slalom. But points were points and you took 'em where you could get 'em. They had medals for prizes that were awarded for the first three places. I still have two of mine:



Yes, one is a silver and the other gold. I still remember "winning" that damned silver medal. It was in Beaufort in the summer of '78 and I was so pissed I never said a word all the way home (an 80 mile drive.) I was ripping that day on my Summer Ski and had cruised all the way to the finals. I remember the kid I was racing against was a Marine brat from the Beaufort MCAS and he was riding Bob Skoldberg's signature Hobie. What I learned that day, though, is that "nylon lock nuts" don't always pass muster. My damned wheel fell off in the finals! It was a long time after that before I ever rode a Tracker again. I think, though, over the course of three summers ('77, '78 and '79,) I won 10 gold and the one silver. (Somewhere there is a box full of my trophies and medals from '76-'80. All I can find are four or five I've always had with me since College. Beats me where the rest ended up.)

Anyway, the rules were what you'd expect with the only exception being we never calculated times or cone penalties. The rule was simply "10% + 1 equals a dq." Of course, missing a cone or going out of the course was also a DQ. A 30-cone course had a four-cone DQ, 35 cones would be five. First one to the finish line wins.

[Jani Soderhall]

So to start- I think trying to resurrect a group of advanced level slalomers from different countries to define the sport of slalom is a good idea. I don't think they should all be "Old guard slalomers" I would for instance be very happy to see an accomplished newbie give his thoughts as they are freshest- the name that comes to mind is Jason Mitchell for the USA. I am sure there are European counterparts like Jason.

Having representatives from Each country with a equal vote is good. I think that the proposals to amend slalom's format should be equally considered no matter how small the country's slalom base that recommends the change. I do think that slalom enjoyment for the MAJORITY of slalomers in EACH SKILL CLASS LEVEL should be considered strongly before enacting a change.

John,

To me it seemed inappropriate to have a voting system where each country would get equal votes with todays situation. I also think it would be different to find a single (or even two or three) representative(s) per country today. It wasn't easy before either, but in more than a few cases there were people with positions within their country organizations ready to participate in the ISSA. These were often people doing events in their own countries and sometimes that were also top skaters.

Today we need to come up with a new system to replace the country representatives. My suggestion to make the new ISSA more democratic was to give anyoine and everyone a chance to vote. However making the system completely open would make it too easy for those who would like to influence the system in an unfair way. I've also seen on this forum that completely open votes often do not attract very many responses. But of course, we haven't tried to vote on anything really important here at the site yet. Setting a price tag on a vote seemed appropriate. At first I thought of it as "shares" as on the stock market, but in realily it's just membership as in any association.

It is now time to build up the group we need to best represent todays slalom community. Gone is the old ISSA, gone is the America vs Europe, gone is the east coast, west coast "wars". That's all behind us. We've done that. We know the story, we know each others. Time to be creative and constructive.


John, over the years you've had plenty of ideas on how to grow the slalom community. Let's bring a few of them out and let's give it a try. This community is dedicated enough to care, to discuss, act and even sponsor the appropriate actions. The most important target being further growth of this sport. If we can do so, it means we can keep the momentum going and keep on having fun racing each others on different continents!

The challenge will be to generate a steady flow of newbies, new races, new products and new challenges exactly the way we've seen it happening since that first Morro Bay race four years ago.

Post you ideas in separate threads, whereever appropriate, and we can start working on one at a time.

/Jani

[Jani Soderhall]

John, Wesley,

I forgot to thank you for the cool history reports. Maybe we should have an entire subforum dedicated to slalom history. There's tons of cool stories out there and I'm sure most of us would like to hear more.

/Jani

[Bill Wahl]

Jani,

You are clueless. No idea what it takes to bring skateboarders together. The world ranking is thought of as a joke by almost every top US competitor and you think by offering skaters the opportunity to buy votes that will make a difference? You admit not even having a plan for the money yet, but you do not hesitate to ask for it. You are laughed at by many US skaters. Your plan to hand over your failing ideas to those on the investors list is a bad call and completley clueless. Slalom skateboarding/racing deserves better. The future of slalom racing is now in the hands of ISSA and all the flunkies on your weak list. Sad.

[Jani Soderhall]

Bill,

You're right, I might be clueless and it's true that I do not have an agenda. That's why this is cool. My idea is just "let's do something together". This forum is where we start. Don't worry about the ISSA word. It means nothing, it's history now. The new term ISSA just represents the way we get together in these days - here at the forum.

Payment was a natural way to determine who's interested enough to participate. Other systems like one vote per area/country or whatever would probably cause more criticism.

The question is not what I am going to do with the money. I will try to withdraw as soon as I can. Probably somebody else with less of a history will better represent the new ISSA. The money should be used for whatever the community decides to do with it, to start with make sure the forum stays alive. John and others have voiced some ideas and it would be cool to try out a few. I'm ready to use some of my money to give it a try. There are others too and more coming. Most are "clueless", but ready to give it a try.

I'd say it's a bit early for anyone to be against this attempt, unless it's personal against me as I'm in the middle of the current action. In a way it would have been better to start this discussion on a completely new site, but it seemed suitable to do it here where there's already a solid base of visitors. It could have been done on NCDSA, but structured discussions seems hard to accomplish there.



The new ISSA will be nothing without broad support, and if there is time will tell. It'll also depend on the ideas brought forward and what the community decides to do with them. Good ideas, community support, actions taken and the outcome of actions taken will ultimately determine the success of the new ISSA.

I'd really appreciate if you'd be prepared to participate on a regular basis to know what you'd like to see and do for the sport. I'll pay your membership if you want to participate as a voting member. Of course, there's no need to pay to raise your voice, but ultimately we intend to use the votes to vote on critical issues (for example those that means we'll use some of the money).

Your comments are welcome and has already led to improvements of this site and the ranking system and I'm looking forward to get to know you better.

/Jani

[Jeff Goad]

[quote="Bill Wahl"]Jani,

You are clue

[Bill Wahl]

Jani,

I think it would be in the ISSA's best interest to completely toss out the initial implemented ideas, voting allocations etc....Open a forum on NCDSA and/or possibly even a neutral site and ASK QUESTIONS. don't assume you and your investors list know best. Don't even assume skaters know to come to this weak web site. You need US skaters to take you seriously. You need the best in the world to feel comfortable joining ISSA and contributing to ISSA. It is highly unlikely that you will get any money if you do not have a business plan or ANY plan. People like to know where their cash is going and who's pocket it is in. Any Olympic goals should be treated seriously and very much like a business. Your efforts are good and genuine, but you really need to look to the worlds top slalom racers and ask their opinions. Not by sending an email out asking for money with rules already in place. I see very few people on your list that I will follow into battle. Especially someone as narrow minded as Jeff Goad. Skateboarding will transcend you and this weak website. It does not need you Jani. Feel blessed that you are part of it and stop kissing ass to your investors and close friends and get the majority of slalom racers involved. Particularly the ones that still race and have some business knowledge. Start this idea off right. Don't let it be a failing mess like the World Ranking system

[Claude Regnier]

Bill you are cluless. Sorry to see you are so stuck! Where ever that place may be.

Good Luck on the site and the plan to everyone involved now and in the future.

[Hans Koraeus]

Bill, you're such a humble guy.

(Jani) You are clueless. No idea what it takes to bring skateboarders together.

Sure, that's why he was a very well appreciated president of the European Skateboard federation in it's days. If you would have done your homework you would never had come close to say those words.

The world ranking is thought of as a joke by almost every top US competitor

You should not blame Jani for that. I guess I am to be blamed for that "joke". I would love too see your list of those top US competitors that you are talking for. Unless you do so you are only talking for yourself.

You are laughed at by many US skaters.

Again, speak for yourself. Don't try to pretend your are many.

The future of slalom racing is now in the hands of ISSA and all the flunkies on your weak list.

Then convince yourself and your fellow slalom brothers to join and to make the list stronger.

Open a forum on NCDSA and/or possibly even a neutral site and ASK QUESTIONS.

This is that neutral site you are asking for. And if you want to open an ISSA forum on ncdsa you are welcome to do so as are anyone else on any other forum who wants to discuss ISSA regionally. And questions are asked here. First question: Are you ready to work for the slalom community together with your fellow slalom brothers around the world?

don't assume you and your investors list know best

He doesn't assume he knows the best. That's why he wants you and others to join.

Don't even assume skaters know to come to this weak web site. You need US skaters to take you seriously.

Weak or not, this is the site ISSA will use. And it is used by US skaters too. A lot.

You need the best in the world to feel comfortable joining ISSA and contributing to ISSA. It is highly unlikely that you will get any money if you do not have a business plan or ANY plan. People like to know where their cash is going and who's pocket it is in.

Sure. Give me a list of "the best in the world" and we will try to convince them. It's a question of trust that is true.

Any Olympic goals should be treated seriously and very much like a business.

That's why we need an International Skateboard Slalom Association (ISSA).

Your efforts are good and genuine, but you really need to look to the worlds top slalom racers and ask their opinions. Not by sending an email out asking for money with rules already in place

There are no rules in place and we try to get as many aboard as possible because we want everybody's opinion.

Skateboarding will transcend you and this weak website. It does not need you Jani.

Unfortunatley (in your case) this site do need Jani. He is the one knowing best the nuts and bolts of this forum. Without him it sure would have been a mess.

Feel blessed that you are part of it and stop kissing ass to your investors and close friends and get the majority of slalom racers involved. Particularly the ones that still race and have some business knowledge.

I like your idea. Let's all help out getting the the majority of slalom racers involved. I trust you are making your part Bill.

[Jani Soderhall]

...ASK QUESTIONS. Don't assume you and your investors list know best.

Bill,

I don't pretend I know best, that's why I haven't sugggested we revive the ISSA any earlier. In 2004 I've seen that interest has escalated as to some kind of common sense agreements within the sport for many reasons:

- to help contest organizers fend off protests from angry skaters who try to turn the lack of
rules to their own advantage.
- to help contest organizers, by not wasting time writing down common sense guidelines
- look into possibilities to promote the sport and widen the horizon
- act as a common body towards the outside world
- create/maintain a reference website where newbies can go and find information

I could have done this earlier and I could have done it later. It just happened to feel like the opportunity was there. Jack didn't have the time or knowledge needed to keep this site going. Rather than see it disappear a group stepped in to keep it alive. Since then many others have joined. We've got enough support now to run the site for another year and I predict it'll be easy to keep it going for much longer just with the current users. Most people who stepped up, didn't have a set agenda, they were just anxious to make sure the site stayed put. Some may even be sceptic to the ISSA, but most are ready to give it a try. If it fails, or there's no need for it, it'll just disappear anyway.

I think it would be in the ISSA's best interest to completely toss out the initial implemented ideas, voting allocations etc....

The voting system is so basic, I don't think it needs criticism. Anybody is allowed in - that seems the most fair to me. Each vote counts as much. We're no longer in desperate need for money, but payment is a system to show that you care. Don't worry about the people currently on the list, their power will quickly diminish as the group is further widened. We just had to start somewhere.

Open a forum on NCDSA and/or possibly even a neutral site and ASK QUESTIONS.

The NCDSA is a great place for the latest news stuff, but I can't see the format being used for structured discussions. This is now a neutral site. Forget about the history. We just used the place because it has a registered user base. Like that we can start the discussion among people who are already visiting. You should see this site as a "new site". I guess we should have made a public announcement on the NCDSA and other sites, but this is really a bottom up approach, not a top down approach.

Your efforts are good and genuine, but you really need to look to the worlds top slalom racers and ask their opinions.
...
It is highly unlikely that you will get any money if you do not have a business plan or ANY plan.

Somebody had to put a basic structure in place, so I did. We now have the forum, we have a voting system - now we just need to get the right people online. It's happening with Mollica, Jack Smith, Keith Hollien, Noah Heinle and Gary Fluitt supporting the initial efforts. How about yourself?

You need US skaters to take you seriously. You need the best in the world to feel comfortable joining ISSA and contributing to ISSA.

...get the majority of slalom racers involved. Particularly the ones that still race and have some business knowledge. Start this idea off right.

To help us get a better composition at the start I'd be ready to pay with my own money for four seats to those who would best represent the USA in your opinion. My votes would go to Richy Carrasco, Steve Evans, David Hackett and Lynn Kramer (+Eric Groff who already has a vote). Who's on your list?

/Jani

[Jeff Goad]

Especially someone as narrow minded as Jeff Goad.

[Rick Stanziale]

Two of my favorite skaters butting heads.

Here's my take....

Wahl is pissed because Concrete Wave misspelled his name and then (to add insult to injury) started selling the mag at Wal-Mart (another thorn in Billy's side).

gOAd, he's just all about being in the headlines.......the sooner slalom gets on television, the better for gOAd to be involved.

In the meantime, I suggest you settle it at Kona in March.

[Bill Wahl]

The first I hear from ISSA is from an email asking for money. I see no discussion on NCDSA and I see the same narrow minded regulars in this forum who have little or no impact in slalom skateboarding. I skate regularly with some of the worlds top racing pros. Some of whom are business owners and have a specific interest in the future of slalom and skateboarding in general. We discuss this site and various topics in these forums as well as NCDSA. I can only tell you that they as well as myself would jump aboard and be part of the ISSA if there was some respected individuals leading the way. NOT kooks like Goad who don't attend races and who spend most of the time talking shit and not offering any intellegent communication. Jani you need alternative thinking individuals who don't kiss ass and who don't behave like the majority of your girlfriends here in this forum. Try asking some questions and reach out and be resourceful before you start making big decisions and asking for money. Consider speaking with business owners and experienced slalom racers. Move above and beyond this weak forum and all your little girlfriends that will only keep you from being successful. Just some names that I think might be helpful in leading others to your cause would be. Mollica, Deck, Evans, Olson, Hackett, Carrasco. You need racers who are respected and offer some diversity. Not little girls like Goad. People with marketing knowledge and alternative ideas. I'm willing to help. Not hurt the ISSA. But don't expect me to sit back like many lurkers and pussys and not speak my mind. YOU need that even if it doesn't agree with you and your cheerleaders.

[Daniel Poweleit]

Bill!

Do you know me? Do you know Donald Campbell? Do you know Heiko? Do you?

Why do you call us "pussies", "lurkers" and "cheerleaders"?

I for myself do skateboarding since 25 years, Donald too! Heiko is a little bit younger.
I for myself am a business-man but with no relation to skateboarding.
Donald instead has a skateboard related own business. Heiko too!

I for myself have not kissed anyones ass, Donald and Heiko too!

Instead, we have asked Jani what that ISSA has to do with this forum, because we
germans have made bad experiences with associations like that and we only wanted
to keep this forum alive. We three have discused this item.

Jani, then told us that the ISSA has to become a real new association where all items
are open and new to disuss.

And that was the point where we said that this could be a chance to create something
new. Made from Skateboarder for Skateboarder.

And you are pissed, because of little 25$, because you are at this forum only twice a year and have not recogniced that something has changed and because this forum was choosen to be the one where the ISSA has got its home? Poor boy! You are the one and
only slalomer in the middle of the universe? And everybody has to tell you first?

Please stop crying. Be with us or not. And if not then shut up!

/Daniel
a little light from Germany who wants to push skateboardslaloming with his little mind.

[Vlad Popov]

Learn to ignore.

[Rick Stanziale]

Learn to ignore.

where's the love?

Wahl contradicts himself throughout his rants, I enjoy reading them both on NCDSA and here at the ISSA's Forum for the international slalom community.

[Vlad Popov]

Look but don't touch.
Touch but don't taste.
Taste but don't swallow.
Love but ignore.

[Troy Smart]

Wahl has a point. (even though he comes across as a complete asshole).

Who is the ISSA?
Who appointed them?
Just what do they have to do with most slalom racers?

You can't just declare yourselves the governing body of a sport, make rules, etc. and not try and include the people who basically founded it or most of the people who participate.

These people are SKATEBOARDERS.
You can't do what you are trying to do without expecting a huge, flying, two fingered F U.

Especially if you are European.

I type that at the risk of seeming politically incorrect but it's the truth nonetheless.

Wahl is pissed because some Euro fags are trying to take over the sport and turn it into something it never should be.

And in a lot of ways he's right.

But, if you absolutely must regiment every little thing to do with slalom, try being a little more subtle. Or a lot more subtle.

[Hans Koraeus]

Troy, I see you try to create some middle ground here but what is the middle ground with someone who don't respect his slalom brothers and call them all kind of things? ISSA is not supposed to be a cool mans club. It is open for everyone. Cool guys, old guys, beginners, non-skaters, dorks and yes even homosexuals. All who wants to support or work for the international slalom community.

Who is the ISSA?

All people who cares about slalom skateboarding and who thinks that something good will come out of having an international governing body for our sport.

Who appointed them?

This is the great thing. You appoint yourself. If you believe in this and want to support or work for it there are no limits.

Just what do they have to do with most slalom racers?

Most of them are slalom racers. Some are also skaters in general. Some in the future maybe will not be. But they will all support or work for the slalom sport and all those who enter competitions. So they have a lot to do with most slalom racers. And maybe even those who doesn't even race but only do freeriding and slalom for fun.

You can't just declare yourselves the governing body of a sport, make rules, etc. and not try and include the people who basically founded it or most of the people who participate.

Stop saying that we are not trying to include people. We are in the middle of this phase right now. And we need all the help we can get. From all of you. If you think there are people missing what do you do about it? It's simple. You spread the word and try to lobby for it. We want to include everyone but its up to each one to make up his/her own mind. And if $25 bucks is the barrier and you still want to work for the cause you would probably even be invited in. Help us getting the word out. Nobody should be able to come one year from now saying "I didn't know about this".

And please tell me who founded our sport. I'm truly very interested. But frankly it doesn't matter. What matters is who cares about the sport now. And who will care about it in the future. It's true that you can sometimes tell by those who have passed the dark ages of skateboarding and slalom itself. Those who still slalom now and still did it in the 90's and the 80's. Those should be seen as very respected people in the slalom community. After the 70's boom when each and everybody skated there came some very hard years for skateboarding in general. If looking at slalom alone Jani was one ot the major forces to keep the sport going. And when slalom was litterarly even "kicked out" by the skateboard community itself Jani didn't throw in the towel. He created ISSA together with those who still saw slalom as their favorite skateboarding discipline. He started the Slalom! magazine (internet did not exist to communicate between slalomers at the time). And it hold up the scene up to 1995. Gilmour can tell you what slalom scene the States had during this period. The Europeans have some slalom history to be truly proud of. For all of us to be proud of. So when you say...

Especially if you are European.

I type that at the risk of seeming politically incorrect but it's the truth nonetheless.

Wahl is pissed because some Euro fags are trying to take over the sport and turn it into something it never should be.

And in a lot of ways he's right.

...you have a lot to catch up in your slalom history class.

But, if you absolutely must regiment every little thing to do with slalom, try being a little more subtle. Or a lot more subtle.

How can it be more subtle. We have been waiting for 9 long years. (Since 1995) And since slalom started to take on in the beginning of the 2000's, we waited. We had all the ideas. We knew it was needed but the slalom community was not ready. This forum was started but the slalom community was not ready. We waited. We started to organize and discuss international subjects on this forum. We waited. It started to be a great international competition scene going in 2003. We waited. End of 2003 we started to revive the old world ranking in an attempt to hype up the international scene. In 2004 we put out a new Slalom! magazine with the same reason. Now after the 2004 season things are continuing going up for our sport and many good signs are seen for our near future. If you expect us to wait until every single skater is ready we could wait until the dawn of time. At some point we have to take a chance and try to do something. Now is a perfect time. Slalom has every chance to get big again and we should be ready for it and take every chance we get to support it.

Are you ready?

[Steve Collins]

I think the point here is respect for those individuals who have become the de-facto leaders in the sport during a period with no governing organization. Without those individuals there can not be any legitimate development towards organization. It is true that a number of significant individuals from around the globe have been named and listed above. I believe my good friend Bill is raising the issue (among others) that our region, which includes perhaps the largest number of great slalomers of any region, is very under-represented. Who can disagree?

I'm a nobody in this sport. I just want to skate. No organization is required to fulfill my needs. Still, I will participate in and support the developing organization.

I also agree that soliciting funds, beyond the currently existing needs of site maintenance, is premature without a good plan. The plan comes first. The plan needs to be reviewed, modified and agreed upon by the sport's leaders before money is sought to implement it. You simply can not move forward, intending to speak for the sport, without the inclusion of the sport's leaders. You already have a good start. Slow down and get the rest before going further. At least that's what I humbly suggest.

[Jeff Goad]

NOT kooks like Goad who don't attend races

what

[Jeff Goad]

Euro fags

upper end lowlife.

[Pat Chewning]

I think one of the basic problems in ANY attempt to organize skateboarders is that in general skateboarders don't want to be organized. Especially skateboarders in the USA! Even attempts to form a USA country organization have failed over the last 2 years.

I swear, organizing skateboarders is like herding cats!

So instead of herding the cats, why not herd the cat food?

By this I mean that the target market of the ISSA might not initially be ALL of the slalom skateboarders, but perhaps just those who put on the races. The race organizers. The promoters, the sponsors, those who are naturally inclined to be organized and can benefit the most from the structure of the ISSA.

It's not necessarily the best skaters who put on the best events. In fact, I would say that it is a very rare person who has enough time and energy to do both very well (a delightful exception to the rule being Gary Fluitt). Organizing a skateboard race requires a totally different set of talents than skating down the course. Some of us can organize well, some of us can race well.

I'm not advocating IGNORING input from the top racing talent. I'm just saying that it is not neccesary to have all of the big names on-board to make the ISSA successful. If the ISSA offers race organizers something to make the events bigger, better, more thrilling, sexier, more lucrative $$$$, and gives more exposure -- then the racers will benefit.

If the most attractive races are ISSA races, then the racers will come....

So next topic: What should the ISSA offer to race organizers? Why would a race organizer/promoter want to be part of the ISSA?

[Hans Koraeus]

Steve,

I think the point here is respect for those individuals who have become the de-facto leaders in the sport during a period with no governing organization. Without those individuals there can not be any legitimate development towards organization.

I agree with Pat that there can be a legitimate international organization even though some will decide to not support it. But of course everybody's wish is that as many as possible will. You list me those de-facto leaders you are talking about and we will see how many of them will choose not to support a new international body. We are in a startup period so it's too early to say yet who will be in and who will not. The final list of those who want to support it will be listed in the beginning next year. Maybe Jani will even make a current member list before that.

I believe my good friend Bill is raising the issue (among others) that our region, which includes perhaps the largest number of great slalomers of any region, is very under-represented. Who can disagree?

It's too early to say yet if a region is underrepresented or not so there is nothing to agree or disagree on yet. The mission is to get everybody the chance to make a stand. When the official press release goes out to the world that will be the start. And then noone (slalom skater) should be able to say he/she didn't know. So help get the word out in your local regions. Now we need internal discussion, lobbying and voices heard. People can be against it, that is ok. I respect Bill and everybody else who make their points. I respect all skaters even though I don't agree with their points. In the end there will be exactly as many representing their region as there are people who want to do just that. If they are underrepresented it's not the fault of anyone but themselves. Californians, Russians, Italians or you name it. And for me personally I don't see it as a senate where each senator should work for his own region. I'm not in favor for ISSA because I want to promote Stockholm, Sweden or Europe. I'm in it for the World of skateboard slalom. I hope it will bring good to us all. Even those regional skaters who have no representative at all.

I'm a nobody in this sport.

Wrong! On this forum we are all somebody. Only when not posting in your name you are nobody.

I also agree that soliciting funds, beyond the currently existing needs of site maintenance, is premature without a good plan. The plan comes first.

I don't understand. First we get critizised for starting without some people. And then we get critizised for not having a good plan. How can we have a plan without any people? There is no plan until we have people on who wants to work for a plan. Nothing has started yet so there can be no plan yet. When we start officially we will all work out the plan.

You already have a good start. Slow down and get the rest before going further. At least that's what I humbly suggest.

Yes maybe we have a good start. But the starting up period is not finished yet. We should not slow down. We should speed up. Get the word out as fast as possible. We can't go any further until we have the official start. Sure it's like buying the the pig in the sack (Swedish saying not knowing what you will get for your money). But it is does show your faith in something and that is something I will always respect people of. Perhaps we are in a hen and egg situation. But instead of wondering what should come first let us create an egg and see what comes out of it.

[Hans Koraeus]

Pat

So instead of herding the cats, why not herd the cat food?

I agree with a lot of what you say Pat. Skateboarders want to be free. It's often one of the reasons we all started skateboarding. But there is more to it. Do you really think skaters will be more positive to be governed by and association of skateboard companies? They do exist today but it does ring a bell. We who are old enough have been through such times and they where not always positive. Ok, there where some exceptions like parents to their skating children who made things happen (like Hawks father for example) and others. Companies are ok as long as their are strong skate hearts in there but when things get big (and money gets big) the skate hearts tranform into a business hearts. And when their is no money to be made on you (slalom) they will put you in the trash can. And I don't really condemn them for doing it. That is only natural. But it should also be natural that we the skaters ourselves take a big part in the control of our own sport. That's the skate spirit for me. A part that is built on the ethics of the sport itself and nothing else.

We shouldn't see skateboarders as one homogene group. Just look at snowboarding. I don't give a shit about the international governing body there. I snowboard and have always have fun doing it my way since before snowboards could be bought. There was a fun inital period of competitions with much of the skate spirit in it. Jani and I even entered the first snowboard World Championship in St Moritz (SUI) and Livigno (ITA) back in the days. Soon things started to get too serious for our taste and we started to call ourselves the worlds first retired snowboard racers. And we hade our plate full already with skateboard dishes. But we kept on going to some competitions but only to have fun and meet friends. Sound familiar? Same will happen with slalom racing. There is nothing that says you can't have one without the other. There will always be racers who want to race seriously and they need some governing body. Those who just do it for the fun what do they care. They will continue doing their thing and both groups will be happy. We are not trying to herd those who do not want it. For me personally i like both of those groups and you can. But there are those who will also want to be only in one of them and that is ok too. The thing is that one group should not work against the other. We will just go parallell. Something that we slalomers shouldn't be unfamiliar with.

[Claude Regnier]

I think that anyone with an open mind can see and understand the benefits of organization. Even the industry organized itself to keep anyone and everything out of it's world. It has now lost it's foothold to corporate biggie's. Sure some of them with survive and do well on their own because so many people support chaos, havoc and so many other forms of shit in your face attitude.

Many of the Pro (some still at the top) were shut down by these same companies. The advantages of organizations and governing body are great and useful if run properly. We have quite a pool of talented, knowledgeable people in the Sport of Slalom Skateboarding. Those that do not wish to participate do not have to.

The USSSF's failure was part due to the lack of support by US skaters and then the money to kickstart and operate it. Andy knows best. There is no huge outlay of cash sought after here. If you want a voice then anti up the big bucks required to do so. Then you can help with the direction of the sport. To simply bitch and complain and call people names doesn't help in the least. It just makes you look like an ass.

Everyone wantsd slalom to grow. Everyone has an opinion on how it should grow. There are a lot of people who have already done some great work to make it happen. Support it or don't it's your choice.

If you want a vote join. If Not?

[Dave Gale]

The rants of one Bwhal is a good poster "boy" for the failure of many ambitious undertakings! Thanks that he's slowed his attack and name calling,maybe now progress will prevail! Jack Smith said it on NCDSA take a moment before you go calling out names and making FALSE accusations Jeez, I'm gonna go kill me sumpin' edible !

[Troy Smart]

troy, you sound like some upper end lowlife. that right you are.

goad, you sound like some lower life up end. you that the are huh we blap.


Touche.

[Jeff Goad]

time for me to move on.

[John Gilmour]

-Click-
(one goes the light.)

"How can you sleep!" she says

"I'M Sleeping!" he says

"No you're not, I can't sleep!" she says

Every have a fight with a girlfriend? She tells you she is angry. At first it is hard to find out why she is angry at you...she won't tell you at first. Then she has no interest in trying to solve the problem. She just wants to be angry.....first. It takes awhile, but eventually she sits down and discusses things with you. You think the discussion is over...solved. But then she starts up again. She tires you out until you just start mindlessly agreeing, saying "yes" to everything just to get her to be quiet so you can get somepeace and sleep....and a few weeks later you are in the same fight again.

ISSA isn't like that. They sit down- take turns saying what they have to say- people comment and give their reasons- and they vote.

Look - I saw the ISSA in action. It was a good organization that quickly improved. I was at the first meeting and a few others each year- I saw it evolve. There were many different concerns. But most of slalom was represented- (I think British tight slalom could have been better represented...but lacking much British participation there sadly wasn't enough of that.) I do think a New ISSA would welcome the British contribution as well as embrace US slalom completely, and take Japanese slalom seriously. Jani never ruled ISSA with an "Iron fist". In fact some of the decisions carried out by ISSA weren't to his liking but were to the liking of other skilled slalomers. The Swiss had influence, so did the Italians- mostly out of respect for their abilities. And that is probably the way it should be. if California were to vote that would be good- and they would certainly get more consideration for their vote because the Rest of ISSA realizes how important American Manufacturer committment means to the Sport.

It is natural for slalom to evolve. It is in fact the essence of the sport. At first you start with an easy course and as time continues your skills and course difficulty and speeds evolves to be better faster, more impressive.

But different countries are at different points in evolution right now. I don't want to see slalom diverge like the Darwin's finches, but I want too see slalom broaden in terms of the types of courses and hills run- yet have those perameters available to people at contests, and without having widely ranging rules- just ones that Most slalomers feel work for them.

I don't want to see tight flat British slalom at La Costa. And I don't want to see a La Costa style course set on flatland in Moscow's Red Square. I want to see slalom showcased as well as is possible and have each countries best attributes work in concert with the type of slalom we see there.


ISSA should not be an organization for the skateboard companies....that always leads to distortions. It should be an organization for the Racers foremost and for the Organizers secondly. The industry has influence through advertising and choosing what events to sponsor- that is influence enough.

But there should be organization so we don't have 250 different sets of slalom around the globe. We need an organization to represent what counts to racers.

Racers looking to train for slalom care about what type of start is used- common, independent, chimed, visual indication, push start, ramp start, false start penalties, backstop no back stop, pitch of the ramps height of the ramps, type of transition, the way the starter starts a race, start window size if any ....etc.

And that's just the "start" of the beginning.


I don't want to see push starts outlawed or ramps outlawed. But I don't want to see 1 foot high starting ramps....or push starts that are 3/4 of a mile long, or courses that are 5 cones or 200 cones long.

IMHO we need to see top slalomers with experience trying different types of race layouts in practice prior to racing them so they can give their opinions as to what makes a good challenging, exciting and worthwhile competitions for racers/spectators/tv/promoters/sponsors and even non slalom ethusiasts.

Jani got really gung ho about making this an ISSA site which I also was surprised about since I feel that slalomskateboarder represents the individual- not a committee. But he has something very very very right. An International Organization with 20 years of experience will be taken far more seriously and sponsorship and contests should improve as a result.

I do like the herding cats analogy- and basically- slalomers will chose contests based upon organization, prize money, spectators and television coverage and courses (the food). If ISSA helps increase organization, prize money, spectators and media coverage- ....well I think that is great.

-turn off that light will you-

[Rich Stephens]

Racers looking to train for slalom care about what type of start is used- common, independent, chimed, visual indication, push start, ramp start, false start penalties, backstop no back stop, pitch of the ramps height of the ramps, type of transition, the way the starter starts a race, start window size if any ....etc.

I don't know. I'm new to slalom but it sure seems like guys like Olson, Chicken, Mollica, Hackett, don't lose much sleep about the above. Maybe they like to just show up and charge it and not worry about the details. Seems to work for them. And perhaps it encourages a more well-rounded approach to skateboarding, which is perhaps healthier than making slalom so specialized and organized that it becomes something obviously different and apart from other types of skateboarding.

In other words, perhaps it is the grassroots nature of current affairs, and their vareity of "rules" and proceedures, that keep slalom part of the rest of the skateboard world and that if things becomes to codified (i think that's a word) it won't really feel like skateboarding anymore. At the very least it may stiffle creativity in setting courses, choosing locations, equipment (witness the "max wheel size" thread), etc.

I kind of like just throwing something that looks like a skateboard of some sort onto the ground, jumping on, and riding through whatever comes my way. Ah...freedom!

Just a thought...

[John Gilmour]

Rich, I agree with you on that, I think you can include all of Black Leather racing- which has a great attitude towards racing- They never complain...which makes things easier for promoters.

It is very hard to find an ideal slalom location for a race- so I don't think ISSA would make the suggestion as to what would constitute a course extremely strict- but they would likely try to help steer racers to the better venues for regionals and lesser venues for locals and hopefully some of the best venues for the Continental championships.

Rather than seeing individual racers have to worry about racing issues- it would be a better idea to have a well organized race org of experienced racers help to ensure the best possible racing is available for all ability levels. To be sure the answer there might be just having a good course setter who can maximize the features of a hill. Or it could be in assisting the Promoter in securing a venue and helping to provide information on slalom from a reputable Organization to town officals to help secure the best hill for a race. Or it could be helping to supply Promoters with a pre-prepped set of promotional materials to post up. Whatever I only see ISSA needing to exist to help foster better racing for the racers.

Where ISSA could be of the most help is helping newer promoters throwing regional or local races.

[Donald Campbell]

attention bill

it seems that we are very similar in approach on handling "delicate" subjects.
basically we all want the same to happen:the growth of the sport.
right?

ok...
what you see here is ONE attempt to achieve that goal

well... your approach on handling that subject is the ASSHOLE way to deal with things.

so i understand that i'm an ass-kisser?
is that what you said?

hey guy-you don't even know me...
so,how come you are so damn sure about that fact?

BILL-who are you?
what is your history-if you got any?
care to explain?

i DO have my history in the german scene- A BIG FAT PART

i know lotsa folks from back in the days in the us-lots of them know me

i NEVER heard about you all the time,until i read that bullshit you are posting here.

so WHO ARE YOU?

on approaching the subject:there's also other ways to do that,than you showed.

give it at least time to grow,before you destroy the idea,verbally...

i really do HOPE that other skaters will join forces-my friends from the UK(i don 't hear you,though i really DO value you comments and input-niall,michael,sam...).
i also want to see you americans here-DEFINITELY

so,PLEASE,bill,don't piss me off from the start.

the german side-investors-only want the utmost positive to happen to the sport.

we are all on the same side-believe me,your comments pissed us off,for the moment.

ah,yes i forgot,we are all top notch when it comes to racing,we all race with high class guys all the time.
you really don't want to see a full fledge euro invasion at morro,do you?

but as i see it,that might happen this year-so gear up and back your shit up.

it seems that you do have a very personal beef with jani-i don't know the background history on that.
i want to start fresh and NOW-nothing else.
so try to avoid calling willing investors ass-lickers or whatever.
you don't know us

just to make this clear-jani is no big buddy of us either.
he seems to have a good idea and we stepped in to help,to-maybe- realize some of the positive goals this idea might bring...

next post from your side-show a different approach and we are more than willing to reflect on your concerns.

[Sam Gordon]

Sometimes a response of any sort is the sole intent of aggravated attention seekers. It accentuates a desperate need for self-aggrandissement where only a lack of self-import exists.

Mostly these cheap jibes come across at best as camp and petulent outbursts, at worst as seething points of self-loathing. Both types are dull, ill-considered and witless.

This site offers a great archival resource for the resurgence in slalom; it also offers an arena for dicussion and development. A place for an exchange of ideas, if you like.

When Jack Smith felt that his portfolio of sports interests would be stretched by including this site, plans were openly discussed and set afoot to make slalomskateborder.com community based. In a short space of time this has been achieved, as much through European interest as through American. International.

Jani is purely trying to fuel interest and field comment on how an interntional oganisation for the promotion of the sport should be progressed.

If you wish to see your ideas implemented then please put forward something positive and bring exciting pospects to the slalom table. Perhaps it should be Cali-centric. Perhaps it should be for under 21s only. Perhaps it should be geared towards the needs of those in retirement resorts. Perhaps it should be for negro slave trannies who touch underage chimps on the Rock of bleeding Gibralta.

It doesn't matter if your missive is ineloquent or ill-considered; it all helps to create the character of the sport, it also possibly energises rivalry and competition.

All that we have done is allow a forum for your voice to be heard.

[Rich Stephens]

Sometimes a response of any sort is the sole intent of aggravated attention seekers. It accentuates a desperate need for self-aggrandissement where only a lack of self-import exists.

Mostly these cheap jibes come across at best as camp and petulent outbursts, at worst as seething points of self-loathing. Both types are dull, ill-considered and witless.

And apparently sometimes a response is made whose intent it is to relish in its own self-righteousness and make pop-psychology declarations on the motivations behind other posts and the people who post them. Such writers fail to see that nothing can be more ill-considered and show more a need of attention based on low self-esteem than their own need to declare themselves judge of other people's thoughts and behavior while holding themselves up as a shining example of properness.

Oh how it must be such a disappointment to such arbiters of taste that the rest of the world isn't as refined and proper as they are nor shares their exact views on topics A thru Z: after all their own viewpoint and methods are clearly and irrefutably the only ones worth having and expressing in public.

[Sam Gordon]

That's about the measure of it, Rich!
Just another pastiche post in a different vein to generate reaction.

All good stuff!


Sam

[Hans Koraeus]

The big problem is not understanding author personalities and deep answers behind their reasons of posting. The big problem is sticking to the subject. As long as that is accomplished people may have whatever psychiatric diagnoses as you like. We all have them, more or less, by the way. We can't do anything else but take people by their word and humbly trying to understand them. Something that we will never fully do any day soon.

So not to put myself in the same off topic situation I have now to figure out a way out of this dilemma. Ah, yes!

Don't try figuring out what everybody else want or don't want with the new ISSA. Try figuring out what you yourself want or don't want with it.