The ultimate race worthy set up for low cost for new racers.

[Etienne de Bary]

Glen-Myself my friends and my son dont pump on flat ground, we race down hills.
I think they do flat ground slalom on the east coast and europe though.

For a general public, a Riderz-like cyber-slalom session is much more impressive than a hard core big slope session: People are not surprised a skater can go fast down a slope, but if you go fast thru 40 cones on self-generated speed, they do applaude.
Flat sessions attract interest for the sport, i always make great contacts with bypassers during those. Big slope sessions look too frightning for that, spectators feel kind of rejected, they would not like to do it too.
it may look kind of corny to skaters who never tried it, but flat is better to attract new riders into slaloming, that is fact.

Number 2 : All skaters who can pump and like to have fun enjoy those timed flat sessions. You try it once and you're hooked, works all the time no exceptions.
(to moderators : if you feel like moving this elsewhere, go ahead)

[Vlad Popov]

I also think that only Bahne has an opportunity here. None of us can match their price. Not even if one builds his own board.

Dalv's TS boards are cheap. But. I can't make, like, great quantities of them and don't charge nothing all the time. I already charge on average less then fifth of what I earn "jobing" at my work, and I can't really make even limited-number "industrial" production runs. So far, I've given as many free boards away as the number sold, so I've lost (spent) some money for a good cause. Tracker might give me a good deal on their trucks, even though I was refused before, and I could get a deal on the wheels. But it'll still cost more then the Bahne package.

Here's my secret cost-sheet (don't make it public, please).

The materials are around $15. The wood is about $3. The grip-tape is ~$5. The clear coat is $3 and the tools are about $2 (this includes blades and sandpaper, but not the tool depreciation expenses, which would pile up to about $1). The overhead expenses such as materials shipping and related gasoline expenses are not included. They are about $3 per board. We have $17 so far in materials, depreciation and overhead. So, you can say that I ride a $3 or a $20 board depending on the perspective. It takes from one to two hours to make one board. Precision has a price tag as well. I don't use any stencils, and drilling is done on every single board separately. The hardest part is finishing the edges.
So, if I'm in the mood to promote TS, I can give away my weekend time that I should have spent with my children (if I had them) for free and charge $20 for a plain piece of wood with no graphics. And I did that several times and might do it again, but not in large quantities.

Wheels @$40 + Bearings/Hardware @$10 + Board @$40 + Tracks @$40 = Bahne is still the best deal around. I think the best solution is to ask Bahne to build boards with smaller wheelbases and simpler shapes. 84A wheels would be good for beginners. RTX and S trucks are great.

Bahne?

[Jim Siener]

John, I got a G&S Response Pro last fall for $91 new. The board has too much flex for my 175lbs. but I think for a younger lighter newbie this board would be great. I think a slalom board with a lot of flex would be really appealing to someone who is only used a no-flex kick flipper deck. It would decidedly make them think they are trying something new plus that flex would give them some physical payback to their pumping efforts.

Vlad’s hardwood decks are nice too. In fact I was so impressed I went out and built a few for myself and called them BASSboards. They are cheap and easy to make. In fact you rode one in Acton last Fall. Vlad’s setup with a short wheelbase (16.5”?) and stacked high Tracker RTX/S to prevent wheelbite made these boards incredibly easy to turn sharply. They are confidence builders when dealing with tight cones for the first time. They do have limits though and really are not suited for bigger GS courses if you want to go fast and win (unless your Vlad). And they have zero flex and look funny so newbies might not care for them. But if all you want is an introduction to slalom and the ability to make a course easily, Vlad’s boards might be the way to go.

[Glenn S]

I also think Vlads hard wood decks- with say G-trucks, and perhaps Fibreflex stradas- or similar clone- would be an excellent way to learn how to pump- and then the deck could end up as a dedicated TS deck. Cost?
Well..Guys?
Glenn - the G-trucks cost?
Vlad your decks?
Wheels?
Is it possible to put a deck together that is still good for racing some discipline for under $69?

John,
I'm almost out of the G*Things, sorry. Only have a few more pairs that are not spoken for.

$119 is pretty good for the Bahne. And I heard somewhere that Bahne is intending to put out a few flexs in this deck and have multiple wheelbases.
Glenn

[John Gilmour]

Fibreflex was my first "starter deck for slalom" in the 1970's. I don't see any reason why Fibreflex isn't still one of the best decks that you can take from Newbie to competition without having to change a thing.

You may have to alter your riding style as you progress- but the decks do allow for that.

I also think Vlads hard wood decks- with say G-trucks, and perhaps Fibreflex stradas- or similar clone- would be an excellent way to learn how to pump- and then the deck could end up as a dedicated TS deck. Cost?
Well..Guys?

Glenn - the G-trucks cost?
Vlad your decks?
Wheels?

Is it possible to put a deck together that is still good for racing some discipline for under $69?

[Leonardo Ojeda]

Jack i will suggest u add more WB options to the Starter decks, and also wheel wells.
---------------------------------
on anothre note:

everything talked about a low cost for newbies wont do anything without promoting the sport. we need more races races like the gathering, more demo or youth classes to bring new blood to the sport.

u could give away decks but if noone shows some interest on the sport it would be a lost cause.

leo

[Glenn S]

Rethinking all these decks that have been mentioned and the price for what you get.

I feel that the Bahne Black Hill is the deck to beat here. Especially since they now come with RTX/RTS or Seismic/RTS trucks, wheels, deck bolts and wedges, deck grip, etc., ready to ride in the completes for only $119.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Glenn on 2003-02-17 12:28 ]</font>

[Andy Bittner]

Just to be fair, The Ncdsa.com Cyber Slalom Cup is held in the east too.

[Wesley Tucker]

Last year in the East were several events and all but ONE were scheduled as downill slalom races. The Folly Beach race was temporarily moved to an indoor facility because of rain. Also, the Georgia State Championships was also moved indoors for the same reason. Both races, though, were originally scheduled for fast, good surface hills. The Folly Beach race resumed on Sunday on the hill. Considering the location so close to the beach in the Low Country, most everyone agreed it was a decent racing hill.

Brian Morris organized a race at a skateboard park in New Jersey in October. I do believe this was scheduled, advertised and presented as a true flatland event. Other than that, I know of no other East Coast races that would qualify as flat course racing.

The DC Outlaw races, the Boston Cup race, the Gathering, 'da Farm and Ricky Byrd's grass roots races in Mississippi are all downhill.

[Eric Groff]

Glen-Myself my friends and my son dont pump on flat ground, we race down hills.

I think they do flat ground slalom on the east coast and europe though.

[Jack Smith]

Wes, I'm glad that you brought up the G&S slalom boards. They are excellent decks for both begineers and experts. My first slalom board was a G&S back in 1975.

The Bahne Black Hill is literally and figuratively worlds away from the starter boards that were available a year or so ago.
The original starter boards were made in China. The Bahne Black Hill is made right here in the USA. We are just now starting our second production run and will soon be offering a board with a softer flex. Both models will also have adjustable wheel bases.

We just received the new Redlines yesterday, and I must say they look great. Crayola red with a cool tachometer graphic.

Stan and I would like to thank everyone for the tremendous support we have received.

We have decided to stay out of the flipper board market and concentrate on what we know best. We have about 100 flipper decks left, we're blowing them out for $20.00 each.

[Glenn S]

Glenn - Nathan weighs 80 pounds, his wheel base is 18 3/4, he has no problem pumping his board thru cones of any size, I wished I had him on a longer wheelbase for JPL, As for Tracker being the only Truck Company that supports slalom, I would have to disagree with you, There is companys giving away $400.00 slalom trucks to anybody, as long as those people are out trying to get the masses to buy them and do their best to ridicule anybody who rides anything but, Then there is companys like Dan Gesmers Siesmics who has been supporting slalom for about 10 yrs or so. Independent was the TITLE sponser for the 2001 La Costa race and gave alot of money for the purse and production of the race. and they would not be making the 101 right now if Slalom was not happening.

Arab,
I'd love to see how fast your excellent skating son (and I mean it) could pump on the flats and even uphill not downhill. I wonder what his Cyber Slalom time would be on a 20.5" wheelbase using the trucks these boards come with as completes, no modifications? 18 3/4 is still on the short side going to mid lenght yes? What do you think he could do with his current Pocket Pistol ($175 deck) setup?

I have to disagree with you about the $400 dollar truck company. First it is $350 a pair company, and that includes about 8 different grommets in different duros and 6 baseplate pads all custom. I have a set and I don't "ridicule" Conventional Pivot Truck Companies. But I like very much the $350-a-pair-plus-extras ones.

And thanks for correcting me about the support other truck companies are giving to the sport of slalom racing, especially Seismic. My bad. You're right. I'll go back and edit that out.

======================================
To Wesley,
Yes, Fibreflex great slalom decks, at a good price, on the same level with the Comet O'Shea. Skipped my mind for some reason at the time I posted. Good you reminded us
======================================

Also there is another deck maker "Dale Smith" that has been making some good slalom decks that some of the top guys here in So. Cal are testing out. Vertically laminated wood core with a fiberglass sandwich. I just bought one today for $75. Sounds like he intends to start getting these out to the public soon.

[Brady Mitchell]

I hate to admit this but I gotta agree with Wesley.

I haven`t tried the new Blackhills Bahnes but I did ride one of those starter boards from the grass roots promo. But the talk I read, the Blackhills are stiffer so I have nothing to judge by.

But if I were comeparing the original starter boards to the old 3 ply Response, the Fibreflex would win hands down.

And supposedly the newer Responses are stiffer too.

I would definately recommend the Response with RTX and Stingers as an intermediate to race ready complete for the newbie. And all for less than $150 to boot.

Good call Wesley!!!

[Wesley Tucker]

Leo,

I've got a fistful of foam-cored boards (you've seen 'em.) I also have a wood/fibreglas laminate Santa Cruz. You've seen it too. I still ride my H-bomb regularly.

What I think is BEST for our sport and anyone wanting to get involved is to make sure there is always a DIVERSITY in the products for a rider to use. Whether it's foam-cored boards, Comets, FibreFlexes or all-wood flexible Bahne Black Hills is all good. Same is true for trucks and wheels.

Let's not assume that a "newbie" will instantly shy away from PVDs or TTCs. I know from experience that for every new person who wants to start slaloming on a budget, there is another new racer who has the cash to start with the best (which is often equated rightly or wrongly to the most expensive.)

I haven't bought one of Deb's new boards. Last time I had a FibreFlex was the Hester model from around 1977. I have ridden the new models and am really impressed. As I said elsewhere, from my perpective the new FFs have a lot more in common with the old Santa Cruz signature models than the old squishy FFs.

There's no reason whatsoever not to recommend or mention FibreFlex on the List of equipment available and accessible for a new skater.

[Leonardo Ojeda]

Wesley, When i started slalom last year i only could affrod a 100 max deck. at the G2 i tried many decks even turners and roes, the only deck i felt comfortable and the one i borrowed from ron saah was a 3ply G&S response.

As soon i returned to NYC i went to the only shop they carry Fibreflexes (NYPD) and walked for 5 bloks just to get that board.

i love it and u can read my comments in the appropiate forum of this site.

Debbie, its a superb person with an excellent customer service.

Leo

[Wesley Tucker]

I've read this thread now for two days and am surprised at what almost appears to be a "prejudice of omission."

Why in contemporary slalom skateboard discussion is FibreFlex consistently ignored? It's a great board that's constructed to exacting standards. Furthermore, it's not outragreously expensive. Some of Deb's design are perfect for "starter" boards that a racer could take from novice all the way to the podium.

Let's be honest: at the 2002 World Championships, FibreFlex took a helluva lot of victories. And don't give me that nonsense, "well, they were just OPEN CLASS victories." Fine. Who here wants to go up against Paul Price and just assume a victory because he's an open rider?

I'm not angry, just perplexed. FibreFlex has carried the flag for slalom for almost 40 years. It's a board that wins, that holds up to a lot of torture and can be owned for a reasonable amount of money.

I never thought I'd see the day when considering a Gordon & Smith FibreFlex for slalom would be thought of as "thinking out of the box!"

[Brian Morris]

On 2003-02-13 23:11, Glenn S wrote:
Brian,
Do you think you could redrill the Black Hill for an 18-18.5" or less wheelbase and it'd still be good?

You can most definately redrill the board to 18" wheelbase, I redrilled mine for both 18 and 18.5 maybe a little more. I also would suggest carving out some wheel-wells along the rails long enough for both wheel bases. I noticed that the board flexes fine for riders over 200 lbs but will give you horrible wheelbite on hard toe-side turns.

Also, if you were to pick one perfect rider weight for this deck and it's stock wheelbase what would it be?
I really don't know. I'm over 200 lbs and it works great for me, but people 130 and above have also enjoyed the flex and feel. I would say the board is perfect for people 130 -175, but can be slightly modified with wheel-wells to suit people 175-250 lbs.


And just curious, what is the camber measurement? I'm not exactly sure.

I think it has a good outline and great width.
The shape is the best part, it allows the rider to participate in many different slalom diciplines because its just right, not too long, and not too short. And a major plus, it works great with my HUGE feet!

Brian

[George Gould]

i don't like giving away something for nothing either. i think there will be small pockets of interest around the states. last year at Morro Bay the amount of kids that seemed really interested was good because there was such good intense exposure. all of the racers take the time to talk with the young inquiring minds. after each race they have to walk back to the top through the crowd so people get to see the racer. the problem is i saw only 1 slalom board for sale in Morro bay at the surf shop, a Turner. Bahne or some other lower price system might have a small chance in that environment. same with what looks like happening in Colorado. it will grow better one rider at a time, it just doest seem to grow fast enough.

[Matthew Wilson]

Arab--

I don't think that the idea expressed is intended to necessarily generate interest as it is to provide an easily attainable roadway for entering the sport. While practicing in Boston, I have had many people ask where they could get a slalom deck. "How much does it cost?" they ask. When $120-$150 is stated as the general starting cost, most younger folks sort of balk at the figures.

I think it is important to determine what are the best set-ups for the least amount of money. This way the rest of us, who are not veterans of the sport--such as yourself--are armed with more knowledge and a greater understanding of available equipment. It makes it easier to "sell" the sport.

The next time someone asks me "how much does a slalom setup cost?" I want to ask in return, "What's your budget"? And then provide GOOD options for that person to explore.

It's not so much about getting people interested, as it is getting people to understand that the sport is within their reach.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: matthew wilson on 2003-02-14 12:20 ]</font>

[Eric Groff]

I dont see where sending slalom boards to kids is gonna make them any interested in slalom then they are now, if you were to send a toe flipper board, Launch ramp and a Rail then you would see interest, The way slalom has progressed over the last 2 years has been by word of mouth and primarily thru the races, Thank God for FCR who has been putting on BEGINNER RACES for the last 2 years that has made slalom accessible to the masses. Then again we could be running PRO only courses and there would not be anuthing for the newbies to ride and slalom will just fall by the wayside again.

Glen-Nathan weighs 80 pounds, his wheel base is 18 3/4, he has no problem pumping his board thru cones of any size, I wished I had him on a longer wheelbase for JPL, As for Tracker being the only Truck Company that supports slalom, I would have to disagree with you, There is companys giving away $400.00 slalom trucks to anybody, as long as those people are out trying to get the masses to buy them and do their best to ridicule anybody who rides anything but, Then there is companys like Dan Gesmers Siesmics who has been supporting slalom for about 10 yrs or so. Independent was the TITLE sponser for the 2001 La Costa race and gave alot of money for the purse and production of the race. and they would not be making the 101 right now if Slalom was not happening.

[Glenn S]

Brian,
Do you think you could redrill the Black Hill for an 18-18.5" or less wheelbase and it'd still be good?

Also, if you were to pick one perfect rider weight for this deck and it's stock wheelbase what would it be?

And just curious, what is the camber measurement?

I think it has a good outline and great width.

[Brian Morris]

Definately the Bahne Black Hill. Jack really knows his stuff, and put together an amazing beginer setup. And especially now, that the black hills are available with Seismic/RT-S combo and RT-X/RT-S combos.
Its a great all around board, and can be setup to race anything from really tight stuff to wide offsets and big GS.

Brian

[Glenn S]

John,
I have to agree with Henry about the Comet O'Shea, but probably a bit more expensive than you'd want. It is just too bad that these board makers like Comet or even the Bahne Black Hill cannot dial in the weight to flex ratio and have more flex options available.

Your talking junior high schools, high schools here. These kids are not that heavy. Probably anywhere from 115 to 150lbs. I'm hearing people say that at 200+ pounds that the Bahne is working good for them. That means to me that for a 115 pounder it would be a stiff plank-r. And I don't like that it has a 20.5" (inner to inner)wheelbase. And if you made it shorter that it would just be even stiffer(the flex that is).

I've not seen a Bahne so I don't know what they are like. But the Comets are very sturdy and have good feeling flex. But it sounds like you can't beat the price of the Bahne Black Hill. And everyone that has them is giving them great reviews, I've not heard a negitive comment about them yet.

From a price standpoint and the fact that evryone is giving the Bahne great reviews, and that it has a great outline with good width. The Bahne is probably "the" board for what your asking.


However, one thing I don't like about these boards is that they come with such wide wheelbases. I think that shorter wheelbases are much easier to pump for lighter riders and even heavier newbies. And with a shorter wheelbase they could ride tighter cones without getting discouraged as you might on a longer wheelbase because it was harder to make a tighter course. I think that the decks should have 16.5 to 18.5(extreme max) inch wheelbases. For comparison I know that Mike Maysey's red Turner setup for TS has a 17 3/4" wheelbase(inner to inner), and he is about 175lbs and was riding this on FCR courses which many thought for the most part were wide spacing courses.

This also means that courses don't have to be as long. You can put more cones in a shorter distance. And again, “They Are Easier To Learn How To Pump”, did I already say that? My gut feeling is that young light riders should have short wheelbases period. I remember being 12yo and pumping around my driveway for hours on end, using clay wheels, with a very short wheelbase. I don't think I'd have been able to do that on a Bahne or Comet with my weight back then, especially since wheels and trucks like the RTX/S are wide too.

For Trucks I'd go with Tracker RTX/RTS combo. Or an Indy 101 up front and a Tracker RTS in the rear.

Now for bushings I would wish that there were some bushing like the ones on the <a href=http://members.cox.net/oceanslider/gtruck-side2.jpg> G*Trucks </a>that I have for sale. These are great soft but lively urethane. In fact one was even used in the winning rig at the jpl II. And that guy is not so light weight. But he thinks their great too. These soft blue G*Truck bushings would be about the best bushing that I know of for lighter riders. Maybe a lathed Tracker Stimulator, but I’ve not seen one of those yet, or done it myself. But I hear that these are great urethane, so these lathed down could be great for lighter riders.

Just yesterday I contacted Maurus Stroble and asked him if he could hook me up with a bunch of these G*Truck bushings. And now I am in contact with Bernhard Heringer of SportsOn. And Bernhard’s office is in the same complex where they make the G*Truck. Bernhard is talking to Mr. Gerd Elfen who is actually the maker of the G*Truck and said he will get back to me with a price.

Hey if it will help the sport

[Henry Julier]

Most kids I know pay around 150 for their longboards when they get them. So, I think a Comet Oshei (medium flex) build up complete directly from Comet would be an excellent race worthy setup for beginners. The decks are bombproof, the trucks are good enough to be raced on, and the wheels are decent and easily upgradeable when the rider gets better.

_________________
H2

[John Gilmour]

The ultimate race worthy set up for the lowest bucks for new racers.

If you wanted to promote slalom and send off a trunks full of decks- each with a timing system + rules, and cones to several junior highschools, high schools and colleges....what deck,wheels, trucks would you use.

Keep in mind that the lower the cost the more people you could introduce to racing- but if its not any fun to ride...you won't get many racers for your efforts.