GS Course Is Too Straight, Loose And Fast: SLALOM ANYWAY!

Eddy Martinez · Post by **Eddy Martinez** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:01 am

Good Joe " 2005 after right knee surgery, Eddy think about it you do not want to retire from slalom and sell all your slalom gear and these are not the droids you are looking for. Damm Jedi Knight trick".

Bad Joe " Are those dead Chupacabras Ed, on the side of the road in NC".

Serious Joe " Shut up Ed and start making out with the German Kid".

I love you Joe I

Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws/Pavel Rider

Kevin Dunne · Post by **Kevin Dunne** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:27 am

"Actually I found out that Southwest allows THREE checked bags of up to 50 lbs. each. At least they did on my trip back from Austin. Wish I'd 'a known that on the way down there. I don't think I would have brought more (I hardly COULD have, as I look back ). But it would have made it a lot easier."

Good thing JBH...you needed that third bag just to haul all of your trophies back home!

Joe Iacovelli · Post by **Joe Iacovelli** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:54 am

Tod Oles wrote:Marty, There's a reason I only spell my name with 1 d..... I can't keep track of 2......
How's the shoulder??? Are you gonna come visit in St. Louis??

I got stuck paying the over weight charge ($50 on United) coming back from
NC... I was legal going down there with 2 bag... It was the trip home that got me...

I guess winning a little shwag comes under the heading..... "Ain't nothin for free"

It was the portable bar wasn't it?

Sorry

Karl Floitgraf · Post by **Karl Floitgraf** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:48 pm

my bag was 49 pounds coming down to TX. won a skaterbuilt and I was on an even 50 coming back.

Tod Oles · Post by **Tod Oles** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:42 pm

Marty, There's a reason I only spell my name with 1 d..... I can't keep track of 2......
How's the shoulder??? Are you gonna come visit in St. Louis??

I got stuck paying the over weight charge ($50 on United) coming back from
NC... I was legal going down there with 2 bag... It was the trip home that got me...

I guess winning a little shwag comes under the heading..... "Ain't nothin for free"

Jonathan Harms · Post by **Jonathan Harms** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:15 pm

Actually I found out that Southwest allows THREE checked bags of up to 50 lbs. each. At least they did on my trip back from Austin. Wish I'd 'a known that on the way down there. I don't think I would have brought more (I hardly COULD have, as I look back

). But it would have made it a lot easier.

Marty Schaub · Post by **Marty Schaub** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:42 pm

Put it in 2 bags Todd, then they are only 30 pounds each...... See ya in O-HI-O Lemonboy!

Tod Oles · Post by **Tod Oles** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:15 am

You'll need a quantity for the pitch of the hill before those^^^ numbers really mean anything...

I hate "rules" as much as the next guy and that'd be ok if I lived on a deserted island.....
Oh how I wish....

so I'm all for some "guidelines" just to keep everyone on the same page.

Anything to help me figure out how to appropriate the 60+ pounds of crap I can't seem
to fit in a 50lb bag when I head out to race.......

Justin Readings · Post by **Justin Readings** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:49 pm

I don't think there should be rules to setting a GS TS or HS, i think that when listing a competition you should list what you think your spacings and offsets will probably look like, whether its 10 foot or 5 foot spacings.

Justin

Eddy Martinez · Post by **Eddy Martinez** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:00 pm

My amigo Gumby came by my casa on Saturday he was on a family trip to Mex. He asked me if the video did that course justice. I told him when the racers would go by it sounded like jet planes taking off from an aircraft carrier. Even from the B anc C section. Counting the days till I BOMB that puppy again. Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws/Pavel Rider.

Chris Favero · Post by **Chris Favero** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:39 pm

Troy Smart wrote:It's annoying reading all thes helpful tips and how to's from people who weren't even there.

The course was great.

It was definately not a G.S. It was a Super G. (emphasis on Super).
It was billed as a G.S. when it should'nt have been. THATS THE ONLY PROBLEM.
You could NOT have started from the same point and changed that course very much at all.
Taking a wider line would have slowed it down only a little. You still could not help but gain speed on that hill no matter the line.
I thought it was absolutely the most fun I've had at a race and hope they do it again next year.

More Super G in 2007 please.

i completely agree with this statement.i ran from the b in practice and that was gnarly.watching the "a" bracket was some of the gnarliest slalom racing i have seen and was a treat to see.thanks Outlaws,cfav

Jonathan Harms · Post by **Jonathan Harms** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:41 pm

To specifically address Wesley's point: I've ridden a couple of hills of similar steepness here in MO, and I've found that after a certain point, you just...can't...control...your speed in that way, unless you are skilled enough to actually slide your turns. "Hugging the cones" or going wide will make very little difference once you've passed that point of no return. Believe me, I've tried.

It's a nice idea in theory, and I appreciate your attempt to try to find a safe, controllable, alternate technique, but in my experience, it simply doesn't work on any hill as steep as Big View, or certain roads in Babler State Park.

(Begin partial hijack)

If anyone, ISSA board included, wants to know my opinions on what constitutes a GS, Super G, or downhill, I will be happy to try to tell you. Just e-mail or PM me and ask, or start a specific thread asking for input. If there is going to be a true effort to define what is or is not a GS (or other course types), I will try to contribute to the process. I hope that many others' input will be solicited too.

Here's what I'd like to see, and what I think is at the heart of other people's comments: Ideally, we should have a definition that's clear enough to prevent perfectly capable racers from boycotting a race on principle, yet flexible enough to still allow truly creative courses to be set. I don't think we have to play "lawyer-ball," but I think we can come up with something.

And finally, rules or no rules, I would love to set a course on Big View sometime. I guarantee no one would call it a downhill. If you thought this year's course was fun (I did) and gnarly (I did), you ain't seen nothing yet.

(End hijack)

Marcos Soulsby-Monroy · Post by **Marcos Soulsby-Monroy** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:26 pm

Dave Gale Posted: 05 Mar 2007 02:57 Post subject:

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Good on ya' Marcos! I'm glad you voiced your side..Sometimes personalities clash and emotion wins out..Right or wrong, it sounds like you did your best!! Hope to be there in the flesh next year. Don't take my prior post as criticism, merely distant observation..
Carry on.

Wesley, ....racers don't do that!

I did not take it that way so your safe

I actually agree that the course set on Saturday was not a real GS and more of a Super G. I was Set originally by a downhill racer who thought that he was setting a GS. I think that Big View should have been set wider and with more swings in it. It would have made the course even more gnarly than it was and trust me it was gnarly! I did not know that one of us (it sounds like Eddy) decided to keep the course as set. If I had known this I would have (reluctantly) left it as it was. Sounds like as organizers we could have communicated more.

Wesley Tucker Posted: 04 Mar 2007 21:20 Post subject:

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Are y'all completely daft or just ignoring what I typed?

This topic has nothing to do with course setting in Texas. It's about adjusting a line on a course that's too fast for beginner to intermediate racers.

I wasn't in Texas and never saw the course. If y'all want to argue SOME MORE about events at the Sizzler, that's fine.

Just don't hijack my thread arguing AGAIN the same stuff that was argued elsewhere REPEATEDLY.

Ahh come on Wes you know that I'm doing it just to annoy you don't ya??

lol But to get to what you were talking about, as a race organizer I would appreciate some guidelines on just what the spacing and degree of offset is a GS verses a Super G and how to deal with the grade of the hill.

But I think that Troy said it best.

Troy Smart Posted: 05 Mar 2007 04:36 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's annoying reading all thes helpful tips and how to's from people who weren't even there.

The course was great.

It was definately not a G.S. It was a Super G. (emphasis on Super).
It was billed as a G.S. when it should'nt have been. THATS THE ONLY PROBLEM.
You could NOT have started from the same point and changed that course very much at all.
Taking a wider line would have slowed it down only a little. You still could not help but gain speed on that hill no matter the line.
I thought it was absolutely the most fun I've had at a race and hope they do it again next year.

More Super G in 2007 please.

It is a good chance that I will be moving this year and out of Texas so I will not be involved in the Sizzler planning for next year. But I'm certain that the Texans will take all advice into account when they start their planning processes.

And Wes I promise this is the last you will hear from me about the Sizzler in particular unless I am trying to Illustrate a point with it. OK?

Troy Smart · Post by **Troy Smart** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:36 pm

It's annoying reading all thes helpful tips and how to's from people who weren't even there.

The course was great.

It was definately not a G.S. It was a Super G. (emphasis on Super).
It was billed as a G.S. when it should'nt have been. THATS THE ONLY PROBLEM.
You could NOT have started from the same point and changed that course very much at all.
Taking a wider line would have slowed it down only a little. You still could not help but gain speed on that hill no matter the line.
I thought it was absolutely the most fun I've had at a race and hope they do it again next year.

More Super G in 2007 please.

Eddy Martinez · Post by **Eddy Martinez** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:46 pm

Wow if someone does not talk about a race, then something is wrong. Was the bar raised. Oh YEA!!!! Basically we were shut down by the cops on Thursday one of the homeowners had them run us off. We were not allowed to mess with the hill on Friday course setting wise. Come race day, time constraints it was pretty much countdown, the spaceship had to be launched, too late. The rent a cop was being paid by the hour. I have recieved several emails from skaters from around the country who were there and skaters who missed out to please hold the race on BigView again next year. Chris Chaput put it best. You could take all week to try to find the perfect set up for this hill. Chances are you still are not going to slow down this mamoth monster down. Will we do it again next year. I hope so. She is the biggest hill on the tour. Maybe she will be touted as a SGS next year. I have a feeling the price of admission just went up. Bottom line it is a good crossover race. The DH racers loved it. And the majority of the Slalom racers dominated the course. Just like Park Slalom many of us just sit it out, not our bag and basically we do not want to get hurt. Much was learned. Hopefully JBH can set the course next year. And those who wish not to run it, still have my respect. Just like park slalom. I will be up in Austin next month to bomb that baby again. It has to be done. Is everthing big in TEXAS OH YES. See you there next year. Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws/Pavel Rider.

Dave Gale · Post by **Dave Gale** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:57 am

Good on ya' Marcos! I'm glad you voiced your side..Sometimes personalities clash and emotion wins out..Right or wrong, it sounds like you did your best!! Hope to be there in the flesh next year. Don't take my prior post as critisim, merely distant observation..
Carry on.

Wesley, ....racers don't do that!

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:31 am

this is an echo of what happened over at ncdsa,what jani says is absolutely right and from conversations with eddy i already know that they will improve at next years' sizzler.
fact is:they got the best hill at the moment available.

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:46 am

Pat Chewning wrote:The ISSA is trying to support organizers by having guidelines for what a GS race is and is not. If a race organizer promisses a GS race and delivers something else -- then neither the race organizer, the racers, or the ISSA benefits.

...

The next time the ISSA gets an application for a sanction for this hill, we will ask more questions about the nature of the hill, the course to be set, etc..... And name the race appropriately so that racers know what to expect.

One of the primary reasons for setting up ISSA rules from day 1 was that skaters wanted to know in advance what to expect (to decide if they want to go, to prepare for such a race, to bring the right equipment and so on).

You as an organizer should be allowed to set whatever course / race you want BUT we should let people know in advance (as much as possible) so each racer individually can make informed decisions whether it's worth the trip or not.

/Jani

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:20 am

Are y'all completely daft or just ignoring what I typed?

This topic has nothing to do with course setting in Texas. It's about adjusting a line on a course that's too fast for beginner to intermediate racers.

I wasn't in Texas and never saw the course. If y'all want to argue SOME MORE about events at the Sizzler, that's fine.

Just don't hijack my thread arguing AGAIN the same stuff that was argued elsewhere REPEATEDLY.

Y'all have beat that horse to death. No where, though, have I read any real discussion about what it would take to run the course (or any course) that's deemed to fast and straight for a typical slalom board.

If someone wants to put forth their idea or dispute mine, that's great. If those who were in Texas want to argue some more about Saturday morning there's a dozen other places on the World Wide Web where it's already been said REPEATEDLY.

Marcos Soulsby-Monroy · Post by **Marcos Soulsby-Monroy** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:06 am

Dave Gale Posted: 04 Mar 2007 15:36 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From what was said in the week leading up to the race, after all the concern Re: the Big View..The course was going to be corrected from a lack luster bomber. That never happened. Only a fraction of the pavement was used, mainly the fall line that wasn't challenged. There was plenty of width on the road to cut across the fall line and make it a true G.S but the advice was never heeded.

For the Record I DID Change the course. That is why the top changed, yes it did not change as much as some people would like. But that had more to do with tudes than any thing else. I wanted to change the course farther down but as I remember it any way I lost my advice givers after dealing with the tudes, so I left the bottom. I don't know perhaps I gave the impression that I was finished, but I want you to know that I did listen to what the more experienced racers were saying in fact it was me who initiated a lot of the contact.

That being said, in the future..when you solicit input and advice from experienced course setters, and then proceed to ignore their advice and knowledge, it shows an arrogance that tarnishes the event. (I should know) Eddy and the Clan, otherwise pulled off a very popular race weekend and hats off to you!! Learn from past mistakes..put them in the past, and look forward to the future! Claude...aint you too old for this sort of play?? heh hehehehe?

But I thin that people had a good time too. And I hope that everybody plus more comes back next year.

Pat Chewning · Post by **Pat Chewning** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:12 am

Karl Floitgraf wrote:Ride the hill-

I hate to say it but the ISSA is starting to be geeeey. It's really important the organization doesn't take itself to seriously as we are still getting established. Less rules, not artifical government helps the sport grow. The ISSA should be more focused on doing things to support the race organizers, not the other way around.

The ISSA is trying to support organizers by having guidelines for what a GS race is and is not. If a race organizer promisses a GS race and delivers something else -- then neither the race organizer, the racers, or the ISSA benefits.

I'm sure the ISSA will learn from this (perhaps defining more clearly what a GS race is -- and is not), the organizers will learn (perhaps this event on this hill should be called "downhill" or "super GS").

The next time the ISSA gets an application for a sanction for this hill, we will ask more questions about the nature of the hill, the course to be set, etc..... And name the race appropriately so that racers know what to expect.

Karl Floitgraf · Post by **Karl Floitgraf** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:50 am

Ride the hill-

For the record. MOST PEOPLE LIKED THAT COURSE. It was fuuuun. In case you guys forgot, skateboarding is supposed to be fun.

I've skated a lot of courses I didn't like and I've bitched about it. It doesn't do a whole hell of a lot of good. The only thing you can do is hold a race because that will be your interpretation on slalom.

I've always believed in a certain kind of techy tight slalom course with more flow than I had seen in most places. My first two years of slaloming I felt I was practicing better courses than I got to race. I bitched and moaned about it- didn't make any of those courses better. The only thing I could really do is hold my own race and approach the texas outlaws with a positive attitude explaining my ideas about the TS. I got my dream to set a tech flow tight slalom which everyone liked.

So go skate it and when your on someone else's hill remember to be chill.

I hate to say it but the ISSA is starting to be geeeey. It's really important the organization doesn't take itself to seriously as we are still getting established. Less rules, not artifical government helps the sport grow. The ISSA should be more focused on doing things to support the race organizers, not the other way around.

Dave Gale · Post by **Dave Gale** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:36 am

From what was said in the week leading up to the race, after all the concern Re: the Big View..The course was going to be corrected from a lack luster bomber. That never happened. Only a fraction of the pavement was used, mainly the fall line that wasn't challenged. There was plenty of width on the road to cut across the fall line and make it a true G.S but the advice was never heeded.
That being said, in the future..when you solicite input and advice from experienced course setters, and then proceed to ignore their advice and knowledge, it shows an arrogance that tarnishes the event. (I should know) Eddy and the Clan, otherwise pulled off a very popular race weekend and hats off to you!! Learn from past mistakes..put them in the past, and look forward to the future! Claude...aint you too old for this sort of play?? heh hehehehe?

Wesley, at the same time, if a tight slalom was scheduled, and you show up w/ a 17 or 18 inch wheel base, to find a course set at 10' on center, would you not chuckle? And criticize?
All I'm saying is that if you advertise a G.S and have a hill that supports that genre of course....set it and forget it! Rather than expect racers to run WAY outside the prescribed lines to scrub speed, make it a challenge w a few cones that are REALLY off-set, then, when the elite clean it, it shines!!!

Claude Regnier · Post by **Claude Regnier** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:28 pm

Wesley! Good point. That's how we tell people we are teaching to take a course. Even advanced riders take a wider line to set-up for cones and such.

This was a Slalom event with a set Downhill course. That's the bottom line. The other stuff is all well and good but when it comes to a sanctioned event the line has to be drawn a little clearer.

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:52 am

I wasn't at Texas this year but I've read some remarks about the GS course. Seems it was sort of straight, the cones were three city blocks apart and it was really screaming fast. Some of the pros did not ride and many capable Am riders dropped in from the "B" start.

Something since last weekend, though, has been buzzing around and I couldn't put my finger on it. Tonight, though, it suddenly hit me.

Just because the cones are spaced really far and the offsets are nonexistent doesn't mean you have to hug the cone and go outrageously fast.

If you participate in a GS and find the course too straight, spaced and fast, there's always the option of SWINGING WAY WIDE on the cones and scrubbing speed. The rule is you can't go too far INSIDE and knock down the cone. That's got nothing to do with SWINGING WIDE to the OUTSIDE of the cone. Go wide, go WAY outside and bleed the speed you feel the course won't do naturally.

Now, I know someone will come back with, "racers don't do that! They are going to run as tight a line as they can even if it means going too fast, getting wobbles and splattering all over the road!"

OK. Then why do some racers crank down their bearings? Why do they switch to big, soft, gooey wheels that won't hold speed? Why is going wide on a course any less palpable than doing all the other things people do to GO SLOWER on big fast courses?

Like I said I wasn't in Texas and didn't run the hill. I have no idea what I would have done. I think me and my 34" 6-wheel Ick Flattie would have had some fun. I also know I wouldn't have thought of this "run wide" strategy on the hill. I may have freaked and just dropped down to the "B" start with lots of other guys.

What I do know, though, is that I'm thinking about it now and it's something to consider in the future on big hills.

So, when you are faced with a DOWNHILL COURSE that a DOWNHILLER set, SLALOM ANYWAY: GO WIDE, BLEED THE SPEED AND MAKE BIG WIDE TURNS.

No one says you can't.

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GS Course Is Too Straight, Loose And Fast: SLALOM ANYWAY!

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GS Course Is Too Straight, Loose And Fast: SLALOM ANYWAY!