Junior World Championships - Gothenburg 2008

[Miguel Marco]

I have absolutely no doubt about that...

[Ulf Haag]

There's nothing I would like more! I'm trying my best to figure out a way to get there with a couple of team members. But it's very expensive...

We will give you a great time here in Gothenburg if you and you're team mates shows up

[Ulf Haag]

I get it Wesley I'm aware of that to, no one wants to eliminate ramps. Just wanted to add a point of view.

I'm not talking about the Worlds now, more in a general way. So here it goes...
We had this discussion in G-burg also about really big ramps as away to take the races and slaloming in to the next level, a way to get more speed into flatland racing during winter season. Or like in the case with the GOG race (I think) a GS course that is'nt that steep so you can't build up speed enough ie. make it a fun race for the contenders.

I'm just a happy slalom beginner that sees a trend that points to faster races, steeper slopes and more technical courses in the near future.If we talk about speed, think about the GS race in Statesville last year.
As for skills there are alot of extremly skilled slalomers out there in the world and it stretches over generations where else can a 45 year old guy race with a 18 years old kid and beat him

Maybe this is one way of many to attract more sponsors, media and bigger crowds of spectators to get up their eyes for us and see the what we allready know.
That would probably generate more money and bigger price checks for the contenders.

As for the Beast It's just the hight that differs from most of the ramps I've seen so far, it gives you a longer transition, the steepnes is the same as the ramps we used last summer here in G-burg, and yes it scares the crap out of me to but it would be a good buzz.

Peace and love
//Wolf

[Wesley Tucker]

Is kick starting a skill that all slalomers have?
Should we have to classes "Mongo" and "Regular"? I know that Mongos are having big problems to kickstart in Cyber slalom.

I think that start ramps levels out the diffrences, you start with your feets at the same position every time.

Just my 2 cents

Ulf,

I don't think anyone wants to eliminate ramps. The issue here are these monster ramps that have come along, especially since Kenny had a 6-foot ramp in Ohio. Then Johnny Miller built what I think is either a 7- or 8-foot ramp and then Donald showed pictures of the monster they are building (or have built in Germany.)

What's a monster ramp? Personally, it's when I can't look DOWN to see the start platform.

[Robert Gaisek]

You have to come over! I really want to see one of your films made in Sweden.

[Miguel Marco]

Ps. Mig, It would be great to have you here at the Worlds in Gothenburg. Ds.

There's nothing I would like more! I'm trying my best to figure out a way to get there with a couple of team members. But it's very expensive...

[Ulf Haag]

Shouldn't the skill involved in slalom skateboarding competitions be about, er ... , slaloming through cones?

I would have thought that the use of big ramps with tight transitions, which require a different skill to those that many slalomers have, aren't conducive to encouraging more people into competitions.

Is kick starting a skill that all slalomers have?
Should we have to classes "Mongo" and "Regular"? I know that Mongos are having big problems to kickstart in Cyber slalom.

I think that start ramps levels out the diffrences, you start with your feets at the same position every time.

Just my 2 cents

[John Davies]

Shouldn't the skill involved in slalom skateboarding competitions be about, er ... , slaloming through cones?

I would have thought that the use of big ramps with tight transitions, which require a different skill to those that many slalomers have, aren't conducive to encouraging more people into competitions.

[Donald Campbell]

hello paul k
dstarting ramps are part of the fun a contest can offer,so why not make a big one?
i guess the 3m start ramp you are referring to is ours and the height of this ramp comes for a particular reason.the ramp is not just built to scare people away though
the other topic "professional timing,alge,tag"
proving that a trakmate can not handle accurate times may be difficult,however you stated that you "believe".
if you want more "professional" timing then i would encourage you to pay higher starting fees.
say at our race it would have been roughly something like 50 for ams f.e.
otherwise me as an organizer can't afford such an expensive timing system.
it's easy as it is.

[Paul Keleher]

Don,

I used to have a "fear" of start ramps, and although i say a 3m would terrify me, i would still go down it.

However, in order to make any of these events a "world class" event, i believe that the organisers should focus less on how big the start ramp is, and more on obtaining the services of a "professional timing" body such as TAG. i don't believe the "trakmate" is man enough for the job

afterall if a ramp is 1.5m tall, everone still has to start from it......jeez if the race is on a hill you could have a push start!! hows that for contravertial!!

all a ramp start does is level the playing field, so its kind of irrelevant the size of it!

[Ulf Haag]

@Robo

What?
I have just finnished one just under 5m.
Should I build the second one or not?

Thank's Robo I need something to practice on at my backyard.


@Donald

as we all know these are the world championships
do not forget:WORLD CHAMPIOSHIPS any good skater who enters this special contest should be able to start off ANY ramp and also be able to control himself and his board at high speed.
this is what the organizers think a world class race should be like.

That summs it up good, thanks Donald. It´s the World Championships 2008.

If it was up to me 45 years fat oldschooler that started to slalom last summer after the WC in Gothenburg, we would have startramps that are 5m high in G-burg. It scared the crap out of me the first times I used our ramps but hey just do it. I fukkin love slalom and skateboarding.

But it's not up to me, this is an ISSA sanctioned race and I'm NOT one of the organizers just trying to provide some info as my friends don't have the time right now.

This beeing a nice guy act is over now I've had it.

Peace and love
//Wolf

[Donald Campbell]

hmmmm
some words from the germans here?
as we all know these are the world championships
do not forget:WORLD CHAMPIOSHIPS
any good skater who enters this special contest should be able to start off ANY ramp and also be able to control himself and his board at high speed.
this is what the organizers think a world class race should be like.
the times of simple tourism and hanging out at the worlds,maybe competing a bit,are surely over.
i really want to ask all people complaining here to understand this simple fact.

i am also fully behind the ideology of the the organizers regarding this race and how it should be run.

if you think this is not cool,just stay away from this race
there is so many other races to go to this year.
accpet what the organizers of the WORLDS set as an entry level and live with it.

clingfilm-i really like and respect you and i want to tell you that you are attacking the wrong people this time,trust me on my word please!.
paul k-i know that the fear of high starting ramps appears to be a uk-based phenomenom.just learn to start on ramps that's the cure.
ask sam,paul,louis,ella,mick,rob and and and about our ramps
any yes:i think ramps need to be higher and faster!!!!!!!!!!!!
i am not the only one

one final word:
if this sport wants to be taken seriously,the worlds shouldn't be a cakewalk,not even for the juniors.
you may disagree...

[Robert Gaisek]

No one has mentioned "Huge" starting ramps, just fast transitions.
There will not be starting ramps like GOG's The Beast.

What?
I have just finnished one just under 5m.
Should I build the second one or not?

[Ulf Haag]

We will post some movies in May onto our website http://www.slalomskaters.com with simillar racing course as for the Worlds, we have not been able to do that yet as the outdoor season just started here in Gothenburg.

Here's a short movie with Mikka on one of the slopes last April
http://www.slalomskaters.com/tvprogram. ... in=lang=en

No one has mentioned "Huge" starting ramps, just fast transitions.
There will not be starting ramps like GOG's The Beast.

As all race organizers allready know we are not on a million dollar budget here in Gothenburg, but it would be fantastic to have a budget like that.
It's impossible to do "Everything" at one event and satisfy all demands at us even though we will try our best to make this to a great event.

It will be a great summer for Skateboarding in Gothenburg.

//Wolf

Ps. Mig, It would be great to have you here at the Worlds in Gothenburg. Ds.

[Pat Chewning]

Can I make a quick comment about start ramps here.....

Why is there a new trand for huge ramps....

You say that this race is for "experienced "racers, now i may not be considered that much of a seasoned racer, but i have raced in Greuningan twice, raced at the Worlds in Brixlegg, raced in various events in the UK. nearly all of these events have a start ramp that is approximately 1.2m high. A 3m ramp would scare the Cr*p out of me. I don't ride parks or Bowls, I sKate slalom.

If the race is on a hill, why the hell do you need such a big ramp?

PS I won't be coming to Sweden..not because of the ramp though

ISSA start-ramp specifications are:

9.2. STARTING RAMP
Start platforms shall:
· Be a minimum of 0.75m tall.
· Be a maximum of 2m tall
· Be a maximum angle of 45 degrees from horizontal
· Contain transitions of minimum radius 1m
· Be placed no closer than 4m from the 1st cone in the course.
· Provide hand-holds for the racer to pull on for propulsion from the start
· Have a signaling device placed such that the timing equipment can be signaled when
the racer starts from the ramp

I'm assuming that the ramps at the WC will adhere to these specifications -- have you heard differently?

[Paul Keleher]

Funnny Wes......

[Wesley Tucker]

Pretty soon someone's going to put two cones to go around on the start ramp.

[Paul Keleher]

Can I make a quick comment about start ramps here.....

Why is there a new trand for huge ramps....

You say that this race is for "experienced "racers, now i may not be considered that much of a seasoned racer, but i have raced in Greuningan twice, raced at the Worlds in Brixlegg, raced in various events in the UK. nearly all of these events have a start ramp that is approximately 1.2m high. A 3m ramp would scare the Cr*p out of me. I don't ride parks or Bowls, I sKate slalom.

If the race is on a hill, why the hell do you need such a big ramp?

PS I won't be coming to Sweden..not because of the ramp though

[Michael Stride]

Chris Linford wrote"

You will meet someone who knows this stuff and will persue it.

Chris. You havent a hope in hell. Michael Stride LLb(hons)

That advice is free. Next time I'll charge.

[Ulf Haag]

Hi,

Finally, I think his frustrations are that he's not getting any answers from the organizers. This thread started with "I have emailed the orgainisers but not had a reply yet." So, he has done the right thing in getting answers. After getting no response he came here. No problem with that.

Mikka answered Chris e-mail two days before he posted his "frustrations" on the ISSA forum
Chris did get his answers so what is the point of this circus.

//Ulf

[Wesley Tucker]

First of all, Chris is a member of the ISSA. So, he'd be suing himself.

Secondly, Chris is a serious racer who's been a part of the scene in Great Britain since the beginning. Sorry, Mig, Chris "Clingfilm" doesn't just call himself a skateboarder . . . he is one and a good one. Look at his registration date. He's been on SS.com for six years. Doesn't post often but he's been part of this since the beginning.

Finally, I think his frustrations are that he's not getting any answers from the organizers. This thread started with "I have emailed the orgainisers but not had a reply yet." So, he has done the right thing in getting answers. After getting no response he came here. No problem with that.

Jani then said, " Chris,

First get in touch with the organizers"

Well, after I typed ""I have emailed the orgainisers but not had a reply yet." and then get a response to get in touch with the organizers, I might type a few choice words myself. Ulf then replied to Chris and gave the information needed.

So, let's calm down with the black listing, discussion of threats and turning a skateboard race into a class action law suit.

Anyone disagree?

(Remember: I'm an Admin. I will SQUELCH a flame war before it gets out of hand. Haven't had one on SS.com in a while and I'd like to see it stay that way.)

[Pat Chewning]

Man! I can't believe what I'm reading here. You are all waaayy too nice with that Chris dude. If I was a serious organizer (only doing outlaws for now) I would at the VERY least "black list" him for life from any of my events just for that suing threat. I hope that guy doesn't call himself a skateboarder cause he certainly doesn't sound like one...

Chris does have a good point about somewhat limited information on details of the course specifics. Unfortunately the message is getting lost in the threats of lawsuits....

I think Chris now has all the answers he needs to make HIS decision whether or not to invest in going to this competition. (i.e. Whether his kids are skilled enough to compete in this race):

(YES, a Jr event for 17-and-younger. YES the course will be difficult and fast. YES the ramps will be large and shoot you into the course quickly. YES, this is for experienced racers. NO, the ISSA has no money -- so don't sue us. YES, your threats of a lawsuit just detract from any valid point you might be making.)

[Miguel Marco]

Man! I can't believe what I'm reading here. You are all waaayy too nice with that Chris dude. If I was a serious organizer (only doing outlaws for now) I would at the VERY least "black list" him for life from any of my events just for that suing threat. I hope that guy doesn't call himself a skateboarder cause he certainly doesn't sound like one...

[Pat Chewning]

Now I know. Thanks.
The insurance will not cover for anything other than a spectator, or surrounding property damage, I assume it is only public liability, it does not protect the organisers from Health and safety prosecution where all board members of the organisation are liable for the organisation actions which includes misrepresentation. The law first prosecutes the Chairman or President, figurehead and then filters goes down to all officials.
The EEC is now actively prosecuting under H&S injuries and will help with international legal fees against the organisation.
It is easy to protect yourself if you follow the laws and the operational guidelines. I had offered to help with this but no one takes it seriously. Disclaimers are not valid in law for H&S laws so these do not offer any support for the organisation

Karl makes a good point that people are sueing so do not give them an oportunity is all I am saying but at the moment your door is wide open. (Sorry but I am not so up on US law) For an international organisation you can raise a law suit from any country and the organisation will have to attend hearing at the local court. When I have done this before I choose a location I would like to go on holiday to.

If someone feels broke at sometime they might feel like proving it because it will not cost them anything but tie the ISSA up in litigation for years.

The ISSA is not the organizer of the World Championships. We do not run the competition, the race organizer does. The ISSA gives a sanction for awarding points based on the merits of the proposed competition, but the ISSA is not involved in the actual running of the competition.

The ISSA has no money. We can be sued, but your 1st 1/2-hour of lawer fees will exceed our assets. So what would you hope to gain from that.

If it is true that the ISSA officers, members of the board of directors, and other active members will be at risk for the actions of the race organizer, then I imagine you will see even fewer people willing to get involved with the running of the ISSA.

It dissapoints me to see such threats, I guess I would like to believe that we can work out our problems without involving the courts.

If the ISSA should decide that we are sufficiently worried about this, we could spend our limited resources (money and time) on protecting ourselves. This might involve something like:
A) Limited-liability incorporation (GbH, Ltd, Inc) to protect the individual ISSA members, officers, and board of directors against lawsuits.
B) Purchase insurance against lawsuits.
C) Require that all participants be members of the ISSA, and sign waivers not to sue the ISSA.
D) and other actions.

This would likely cost some money too, which would likely be passed on to the members in the form of annual dues or increased race-entry fees.

I would prefer not to do this because I would prefer to spend our efforts promoting the sport, seeking sponsors, administering the sanctions and points, and other beneficial activities rather than spending effort protecting ourselves against potential harmful activities.

[Robert Gaisek]

Sorry to interrupt but I just want to say this......

I WOULDN`T PUT MY KIDS ON THIS KIND OF SLOPE FOR ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD!

[Ulf Haag]

Hmmm...!

Chris I just got this in my e-mail, do you have problems with you're e-mail account or something, this answer was sent to you from Mikka three days ago.

//Wolf

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikael Hadestrand" <mikaelhadestrand>
To: <c>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Junior world champs


> Chris,
>
> Nice to hear from you and im glad that you intend to come to Gothenburg.
> As you now this is the World championchips and the courses will be really
> fast and the starting ramps will have a fast transition, we can not
> allow anyone to not start from the starting ramp.
> We intend to have a high level on the contest with a lot of sponsors and
> media.
> I think the event will be fun for you and your family even if they dont
> compete because one evening we will go to Swedens
> largest amusing park.
>
>
> Looking forward to meet you and your family!
>
> Mikael Hadestrand
> www.hadestrand.se
> www.slalomskaters.com"

[Jani Soderhall]

Did you read my first post first line?

No I did not. I just heard a really negative voice and just couldn't help reacting. Maybe I drew too fast. Maybe you did too.

/Jani

[Ulf Haag]

You're welcome!

Wolf

[Chris Linford]

Now I know. Thanks.
You should lace this on the information, I am sure I am not the only one.

It raises another question but less taxing but what is the benefit of doing the junior or the Open. How should this decision be made. Please no what ever you like answer, there should be some guidance.

I offered this originally as an easy option reply.

Re: law. You may disagree but the law is the law and you MUST conform to it, or pay the price if you don't. You will meet someone who knows this stuff and will persue it.
The insurance will not cover for anything other than a spectator, or surrounding property damage, I assume it is only public liability, it does not protect the organisers from Health and safety prosecution where all board members of the organisation are liable for the organisation actions which includes misrepresentation. The law first prosecutes the Chairman or President, figurehead and then filters goes down to all officials.
The EEC is now actively prosecuting under H&S injuries and will help with international legal fees against the organisation.
It is easy to protect yourself if you follow the laws and the operational guidelines. I had offered to help with this but no one takes it seriously. Disclaimers are not valid in law for H&S laws so these do not offer any support for the organisation

Karl makes a good point that people are sueing so do not give them an oportunity is all I am saying but at the moment your door is wide open. (Sorry but I am not so up on US law) For an international organisation you can raise a law suit from any country and the organisation will have to attend hearing at the local court. When I have done this before I choose a location I would like to go on holiday to.

If someone feels broke at sometime they might feel like proving it because it will not cost them anything but tie the ISSA up in litigation for years.

Please wise up or you will have to face the music at sometime, at least get a H&S risk assessment done for the WC. You need one for each course, location and catagory and should follow the required specification from the H&S Executive.

Chris

[Ulf Haag]

Hi,

I will try to provide you with some info as Mikka Hadestrand is in China and Emrik is out promoting his new record and Henke is not availiable at the moment.

Quote: Henrik Wadsten,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The racing courses will be the same as for the open class, all racers starts from the starting ramps (NOT BESIDES IT).

Juniors: (17 and under) racers who’s age will not reach 18 in the current year

If you are uncertain if you can race in the Worlds try out some other contests in May before you sign up for the World Championships - Gothenburg 2008.

This is the World Championships NOT a first time try out event.

The slopes at the race location are high speed and demanding.

Best regards Henrik Wadsten"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


//Ulf Haag

[Karl Floitgraf]

Woah dude.

Junior divisions are very important. The first really big race I went to was the US Nationals in CO in 05. It was 3 weeks before my 18th birthday so I went just to enter the Junior division while I still could. I learned a lot and it's one of the reasons I'm still skating today.

BUT

Put your lawyer pen away man. Talk of suing people is one of the worst things in Western society today. The fact that so many people sue for so many dumb reasons is why skating is hard to do in streets or on private property. Race organizers face bigger costs because of insurance since people want to sue. Which makes races harder to organize and thus hurts the sport. Chilllllllll out man. Lawsuits are Lame.

I'm sure the Worlds Organizers want to run a junior division, but it is the Worlds- they might not have time.

You have juniors you want to send to Sweden from the United States? Send them to boston, we have a race organized by a high school longboard club. Guaranteed Junior Friendly and a little cheaper. http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=6027 Just a suggestion.

[Chris Linford]

Did you read my first post first line?

[Chris Linford]

Jani, never thought of that!!!! Contacting the orgainsers what a great and original idea.

Of course where was my first place to ask and I got back a looking forward to seeing you.

Junior can be up to 3.0m straight.
• Cone Spacing Limits:1.4m to 3.0m
• Cone Spacing Suggestion: 1.5mto 2.5m
• Course Length: 25 to 100 cones. (Suggestion: 50 cones)

What I need, as I have said and you ignored is that I want to confirm that if the kids come they can enter.
Fine I live in the Uk but if I bought the kids over from the States to enter I would sue.

...and please put away that stuff about suing. If you have a suspicion that the race might be too hard for your kids, then probably you should have them enter some other races first. After all this is the 2008 World Championships.


Why should I waive my legal rights for this sport. I have advised about health and safety onto deaf ears with the new EEC laws and any member of the ISSA (I am not) will be liable. You live or work in Europe you are bound by that law.

How can you not suspect a course or a race it too hard until you get some information. If I suspect that it is not too hard and it is it is my suspicion, not fact. I need fact so I do not have opinion.

Are you saying there is no junior competition and then you are liable under the EU trade act on advertising, Trade Descriptions Act in the UK.

Maybe no one should go.

Please give me some useful advice/information. If you say you are running something there must be some information.

Chris

[Pelle Gustafsson]

oscar is 10years old,and it means he shuld ride kid klass,he rida amature corse easy and straight cors 1.8 easely... do he get kid points or junior points at the competition??

[Jani Soderhall]

An alternative is that I come and then if the event is not run, or the kids can not skate it because it is too tight then I could sue the organisors for my family's expenses under the European Trade Definition laws.
This could come to thousands of Euros for the ISSA and I am not afraid of law suits.

If I get no answer my option is to either come, having three people enter, or not come and the organisors loose my entry money, or come and then sue the organisors.

Chris,

First get in touch with the organizers, before getting upset, about anything that concerns a specific event. There are various topics on this site where they have posted information, so you can easily see who's in charge and you can just contact them. It's that easy.

Here's a copy of the contact information on the site www.SlalomSkaters.com:

Code: Select all

Mail us here, or post direct questions to: 
henrik.wadsten@liseberg.se 
mikaelhadestrand@telia.com 
info@slalomskaters.com 
Helejna.Larsson@space-display.com  

...and please put away that stuff about suing. If you have a suspicion that the race might be too hard for your kids, then probably you should have them enter some other races first. After all this is the 2008 World Championships.

/Jani

[Pat Chewning]

What age is a junior? I suggest 16-

From the ISSA rules:

Age:
o Juniors: (17 and under) racers who’s age will not reach 18 in the current year.
o Teens: (14 and under) those racers who’s age will not reach 15 in the current year.
o Kids: (11 and under) those racers who’s age will not reach 12 in the current year.
o Masters: Those racers who’s age is 45 years or older.


I'm sorry, but I do not have answers for your other questions about course and ramp differences between the Jr, Pro, and AM events.

[Chris Linford]

The PDf is where I started. It definately states there is a junior event but I am not confident juniors could skate an Open course, so there should be a course they can ride.

I am happy to come to the event and run it with training sessions etc but I also want my kids to enter.
I recommend as a guide ratio for the tight:
Pro - 1.6m
Open / Women - 1.8m
Junior - 2.2m

The start ramp should be smaller or training available to teach the juniors.

What age is a junior? I suggest 16-

I think this is the only way to progress the sport but I do not get any response about what to do.
If I did not skate as a parent I would not trust the information I get.
An alternative is that I come and then if the event is not run, or the kids can not skate it because it is too tight then I could sue the organisors for my family's expenses under the European Trade Definition laws.
This could come to thousands of Euros for the ISSA and I am not afraid of law suits.

If I get no answer my option is to either come, having three people enter, or not come and the organisors loose my entry money, or come and then sue the organisors.

For the organsors not to know what tey are running is not a good sigh for this event.

If I have to come I have dated my requests and I have noted the airfares. If information does not come and the airfare goes up I believe I can sue the organisors for not diclosing the information and a fair and equitable way. If there is information in one area it is only fair to have information in all areas.

I would hate to sue but I will if I need to and as a member of the EC I can do this in the UK.

Chris

[Pat Chewning]

This is the ISSA sanction application for the World Championships. It has some of your information (e.g. What events they are running and what age groups)

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... -AUG01.pdf


These are the ISSA rules. They define the events and the age groups.

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... S-2008.pdf

Between those two documents, it will answer most of your questions (but not all of them).

-- Pat

[Pelle Gustafsson]

yeaa i like to know too oscar lik to have som to fight against

[Chris Linford]

I have emailed the orgainisers but not had a reply yet, but;

Anyone have any information on the junior WC in Sweden. What are the age groups and how will the course differ from the Open class.

I need to know to decide training for the kids and if they should enter.

I can not find any rules or is there not a junior event and it was a typo.

Please email responses and post here

c.linford@lcc.arts.ac.uk

Cheers
Chris