Expanding On Fluitt's Course-Setting Poll Results

[John Gilmour]

I agree that it isn't easier to set up a course in advance- and that it does take some skill to dial in a race set in 45 minutes on race day.....but.....


It is pretty easy to set up a course on any street provided it does not have traffic as frequent as the 405 or 1-95. All you have to do is go out there with some chalk and start making a few marks- you can certainly test a course without cones.

My July 4th race is perhaps the only exception I know to this because merging on Storrow drive is a challenge ANY hour of the day. But just try and get a roadway with that much traffic shut down.... it is going to be a very rare thing indeed.

At "DA farm 2" I had go and try out some courses on an open road. We ended up with a good challenging course. What is really the difference if we do this the day before or 2 months before?

So far as dialing in set ups..I am interested in fast racing...and if the racing can be safer...so much the better. Having the ability to get your set up more closely dialed on race day should make the racing faster for the spectators and safer for the racers. It also gives the racers more time to socialize rather than panic about their set ups. It gives the promoters more time to attend to other aspects of the race rather than dropping a course. And of course it reduces the amount of gear competitors have to carry with them from contest to contest.

Just a few thoughts to consider.

[Claude Regnier]

Perhaps that was a little strong. I do know that several key racer do not like some of the stuff going on but simply refuse to state it.

Perhaps someone else relays it in their own way. I don't know! I agree that Jack was open minded about La Costa and am sure it was the same in other situations. There are a lot of people to try and please at a race and trying to achieve a 100% is not going to happen.

[Gary Fluitt]

Claude are you suggesting that race organizers are black balling guys who complain about courses? You said that it can work against you to speak up? I don't think that happens. Hell Arab did the full course plow at Donner and I think at Catalina as a protest. Pretty stupid way to protest distaste for a course, but the point is that never got him thrown out of a race and that's a pretty pointed protest if you ask me. So lets not start a conspiracy theory that if you complain about a course, it's going to somehow hurt you. I know that Jack and Don have been very receptive to course comments in my experience. Lets make sure we know the difference between constructive and destructive criticism on race day too. I know a lot guys that piss and moan about the course, and other guys that try to work with the race organizer to help out. At Breck last year we set a GS course that had a dangeroulsy wide gate. We needed it to slow racers down cause we only had so much run out. Hutson suggested moving the gate in because of a street drain that racers might not see if they happen to blow out of the course there. That was really constructive. That's the kind of help we need on course set-up. Not a bunch of bitching about the course once the race has started.
gary

[Claude Regnier]

I agree Mike about not blaming winning or losing on a good or bad course.

Although a lame course is always going to produce a victor until enough people are brave enough to tell the organisers they simply don't like the course. There will crappy course or parts thereof to race on.

Right now from what I've seen and read most guys don't like them but they won't stand up for themselves because they know how some things can work againsr you.

[Mike Ohm]

Back in the day Kenny Mollica and I could visit just about any ramp and blow away the locals. And get this, the ramp was in their driveway. Blaming the course or the course setters is lame. Just try to rip anything that is put in front of you. If you loose, take the responsibility on yourself and get better.

[Andy Bittner]

John, your solution doesn't work, particularly if we're intent on bringing races to places like the middle of Boston, Capitol Hill in D.C., or others of that like. Not even Main Street, Morro Bay is going to give up their road for the amount of time that it takes to set, test and DOCUMENT a world championship course in advance. Therefore, your suggestion conflicts with the basic drive of the sport to be seen racing in highly visible and "impressive" venues. This makes it the responsibility of the race organizer to try to have the local authorities shut down a road, for several hours, two months in advance. On the sites where we'd prefer to be racing, your suggestion will probably be unworkable more than 50% of the time.

Furthermore, you don't seem to realize, with your attachment to pre-publishing courses, some of us consider showing up on race day and having to adapt to the course for that day, to be part of the fun of the sport. For me, as a racer-type personality, more than half the fun of the whole game is peak performance on race day, and showing up and racing the course that's there is part of that

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy Bittner on 2003-02-11 16:02 ]</font>

[Dan Hughes]

I like the idea of an independent, course setter, who may or may not be racing that day, to set the course. That way everyone whose going to race has the same learning curve to go through. No bias to the locals. If for example you publish the course before hand, there's always someone who didn't know, or couldn't have known for some reason. I just think it's more fair if no one knows exactly what's going to be set on race day, except the setter of the course.

John, it's slalom, 50 mph gates? That sounds more like down hill to me.

[Wesley Tucker]

John,

I couldn't agree more. Your suggestion, though, even adds more weight to my notion of teams/locals getting the course-setting rights.

After all, I'm sure TLP doesn't have the time or resources to travel months in advance to every race venue. But, AH HA! the local guys are already there (well, maybe BLR would have a hard time getting out to Catalina . . . or maybe they'd love an excuse to take an ocean ferry cruise?)

It might also be difficult to cover some of the more out-of-the way locations (Tahoe for example,) but it's still doable.

Again, though, it wouldn't be left up to the race promoters to do all the "running around" of getting the race course layouts available for public review. The "locals" are already there, so let them have the honor and privilage of laying out the course in their territory.

[John Gilmour]

I think the only way around course setting issues is to remove as many variables as possible.

1. Publish the course a two months beforehand. (you could mark the hill with chalk and give it a go using the marks)

2. Take a photo with a bearing on the asphalt to show the surface.

3. Guestimate the grade.

That way on race day the issues for racers won't be what type of board, trucks, wheelbase to run. It will only be wheels- and a small range of wheels at that.

It would greatly reduce the amount of gear a racer would have to carry.

Racers don't have to drop $700 (airfare, Hotel, car rental, food, entry fee) on a course they might not like or would not be able to run. For instance, If I saw that Chaput and Kludy were putting a slalom course on signal hill with 50 mph gates...I might think twice....just as I would about a slightly sloped course with coarse pavement thrown at WLAC.

It also helps promoters that set good courses on good hills increase their attendance. Giving the course out to everyone will make newbies come better equipped to race- and encourage them to race more.

[Brady Mitchell]

Isn`t what Wesley proposed more of a team thang? Seems like that was one of the least favored options....

Wesley`s quote.."..March 29/30 - Elsinore, CA: SSS and Team Ick could do the honors. The course is in their backyard. SSS gets the tight slalom wizardry of Richie Carrasco and Ick has GS champion Charlie Ransom for the second race of the weekend.

May 10/11 - Catalina Classic - Avalon, CA: Since BLR has members that cover most of So Cal, a good offshore location would allow them to show their best course ideas.

June 7/8 - Breckenridge, CO: Unfortunately, Hood River is off the schedule this year, so maybe Breckenridge would be the course best suited to Team Roe laying out the cones? After all, Fluitt is a Roe guy.

July 12/13 - La Costa, CA: no doubt about it: La Costa belongs to FibreFlex. Sure, Turner has made itself known at the Black Hill, but Turner gets Morro Bay later in the season

Aug 16/17 -Lake Tahoe, CA. I was surprised to see the Battle By The Bay not on the schedule again. So since there's nothing on the board in the Bay Area, moving a little West would be good for Comet?

Sept 26-28 - Morro Bay, CA: The cat's out of the bag. Turner get's the honors at the big year end to do."

[Wesley Tucker]

Gary,

My answer to your skepticism is "let's try it one year and see what happens?"

Sure, teams could "rig" the courses and take advantage of their strengths, but that's one of the motivators in getting the course-setting rights.

Now, if as the end of the year we see Ick and SSS won Elsinore, BLR won Catalina, Roe won Breckenridge, etc., then I would concede you have a point. There is only one way, though, to find out: do it and see what happens!

If nothing else, we've guaranteed a way to prevent one team from dominating the series. After all, the ones who set the course this week will win this week's races. Next week, new winners.

Isn't that what we really want? Complete mayhem in the point standing right down to the final weekend? Does anyone really want to see the championship clinched in August?

[Andy Bittner]

Well... your screen is mistaken. Time to get a new monitor. The statistic for the impartial organization is 28%, that's why the two bars on the graph are the same length. Also, to what end do you add-in the statistics of an option that is clearly one of the less popular ones. I guess, "because I want to," might suffice, in which case, I'm informing you that I've combined the results of all the polls as an indicator of whether people want me to be the King of The Planet, and guess what? I won, so bow.

[Gary Fluitt]

Wes,
What happens if the local teams get the course wired before hand? I could tell all my Roe buddies exactly how to set the course that they will encounter at Breck. "Set four gates at 6.5 with a .5 offest. Break into a 10 gate hipper to the left, then a straight stinger for 6 gates" bla bla bla. TK then practices this course religously until Sandy threatens to leave him. He shows at Breck and DOMINATES. Arab and Chicken are left in the dust. Do you think that will fly? I think not.

I could set a Chaput course, a Hackett Course, a Dunn course, depending on who's greasin' my wheels. Oh it's so sordid.

So I promise not to tell anybody what we're going to set on race day. It's going to be a brand new course, never raced before. We're still going to set a course that's in our best interest though. With some feature that benefits me as a racer & course setter. A wicked right hand dog leg that only I have figured out how to pump through (yea right).

One idea that came out of the survey is that each team gets to throw a racer at the job of coruse setter. The UN approach. Don O'Shei as Kofi Annan. Yeah, look where that's getting us right now?!.
The multi-team approach flattens the playing field, but I've tried to set a course with Arab. taste great vs. less filling. Both are right, it takes forever, no one is particularly happy.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but homogeneous teams seems fraught with inequities.
I wish we could just hire GBJ to travel around the country in micro bus full of cones, setting courses. The traveling slalom minstrel. Minstrels were commonly hung when they failed to entertain their masters. think about it......
I think Jack, Don, GBJ, Steven King, Arab, Richie, et al, did a great job setting the courses this year. And for those guys who want to say how bad the courses were, they've probably never had to set a course for 80 racers of all ages and abilities, on a less than perfect road, at 6 in the morning, with little or no chance to adjust it. It's damn hard. Hell, GBJ was up hours before Morro Bay. No racer is going to do that. I surely wouldn't. I want to show up 30 minutes before qualifying with my entourage and race and not worry about which team has been practicing the course for weeks. But that's just me.

[Wesley Tucker]

Andy,

My screen shot shows:

Race Organizers 16%
Teams 28%
Locals 10%
Impartial Racing Organization 20%
Other 36%

Also, my SUGGESTION combines both the "Team" and "Local" aspects. How do I get "far and away" from those results? Because that's the way I choose to interpret it. I'm not the statistician to say the combined results would be 38%. But hey, it's statistics. I can if I want to!

[Wesley Tucker]

One other thing: I didn't forget about "Team Pocket Pistol." I just haven't heard there is such a thing. Whenever someone mentions Chicken or one of the guys who rides PP boards, it's usually associated with SSS.

And, of course, several "independents."

[Andy Bittner]

Wesley, Where do you get, "it looks as though teams are far and away the leaders when it comes to course setting preferences,"? The chart Gary posted says 28% for teams, 28% for an impartial organization like the USSSF, and 36% in an unviewable "Others" column.

[Wesley Tucker]

In reading Gary's race course design poll results, it looks as though teams are far and away the leaders when it comes to course setting preferences. Although it may be a little tentative and certainly presumptive, I've looked at the proposed FCR Series schedule and think maybe a little regional/team competition would be a good thing?

As such, here's a proposal for course setting during 2003:

March 29/30 - Elsinore, CA: SSS and Team Ick could do the honors. The course is in their backyard. SSS gets the tight slalom wizardry of Richie Carrasco and Ick has GS champion Charlie Ransom for the second race of the weekend.

May 10/11 - Catalina Classic - Avalon, CA: Since BLR has members that cover most of So Cal, a good offshore location would allow them to show their best course ideas.

June 7/8 - Breckenridge, CO: Unfortunately, Hood River is off the schedule this year, so maybe Breckenridge would be the course best suited to Team Roe laying out the cones? After all, Fluitt is a Roe guy.

July 12/13 - La Costa, CA: no doubt about it: La Costa belongs to FibreFlex. Sure, Turner has made itself known at the Black Hill, but Turner gets Morro Bay later in the season

Aug 16/17 -Lake Tahoe, CA. I was surprised to see the Battle By The Bay not on the schedule again. So since there's nothing on the board in the Bay Area, moving a little West would be good for Comet?

Sept 26-28 - Morro Bay, CA: The cat's out of the bag. Turner get's the honors at the big year end to do.

What's more is that such an arrangement could be used to spark manufacturers to be more competitive and involved in slalom? Perhaps a total-points scored system could see an upstart team in 2004 take away the course setting rights from another manufacturer? Maybe Gravity gets in a groove and ends the year with more points than FibreFlex? Or Bahne gets it all together and makes enough of a dash for the cash to get the Morro Bay rights from Turner?

It's all in good fun, but certainly would add some more spark and "team spirit" to racing as there would a more important motive to winning as a team than just increasing product sales. Who knows? Maybe The Northern Racing Alliance takes it to the house and tells BLR they want Catalina? Maybe the Knuckleheads . . .

. . . nah. I don't think so.

But you get my point.

P.S. I do hope some numbskull doesn't reply, "why does SSS and Ick get Elsinore? Why not someboday else?" This isn't a demand and last negotiating point on my part. It's just an idea to make TLP's life more difficult. After all, isn't that why we're here?