100-cone slalom course

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Chris Chaput
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Post by Chris Chaput » Sat Nov 30, 2002 8:44 pm

Arab, Yes that was a killer course and definitely the type that will get you in shape. I wonder if there is a common point at which the average human kind of "bonks" on a slalom run. It seems to me that the 440 yard race in running is very challenging because no one can truly sprint for that distance. It's also too short of a race to hold back.

Similarly I think that most slalomers are "hitting the wall" at about the same time or at the same number of cones. I think that it will be very interesting to see what the optimum distance(s) between the cones and pitch are for the quickest times through 100 straight cones.

I'm in favor of an unlimited push and restrictions on cone sizes. "Unlimited" pushing is easy and doesn't have to be monitored or measured.

It's probably a good idea to state that the cones must have a MINIMUM base width of about 5". That shouldn't eliminate anyone who is currently using soccer cones, Tracker cones, Turner cones or cheerphones. It WOULD prevent someone (like me) from cutting down 100 soccer cones until they were bright orange thimbles that would make the course much faster and easier to make without hitting any.

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Post by Chris Chaput » Sat Nov 30, 2002 8:48 pm

Arab, I just re-read my post and it sounds as if I am saying that the course would get YOU, specifically in shape. I meant to say that it "would get ONE in shape". Anyone. It was killer and I thought that the last ten cones would make or break us.

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Post by Eric Groff » Sat Nov 30, 2002 9:21 pm

No Chris you had it right the first time, I'm way out of shape, I have not been on a skateboard since Morro Bay.

Arab

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:09 am

Been thinking a bit about this 100-cone thing and have come up with an idea. (I still think that a 100-cone race should be 100 cones clean, but that's another argument entirely.)

If someone is really serious about setting a 100-cone world record, then perhaps the "trick" to making the grade is a DUAL 100-CONE COURSE? Sure, that's a LOT of cones. Think, though, of the advantage: we all know we go faster when we RACE, not just pump. Perhaps someone to "spar" with on this attempt could be the difference between setting the record and just getting some sore thighs and lower back pain?

Noah said his time was in the 23's and Gilmour was close to breaking 20 seconds. Maybe a course where both went head to head would be the impetus to seeing JG get into the 19s? What's more, since this is a single-skater attempt, then a little "cheating" would be good for speed.

What if JG spotted Noah 10 cones and then made the effort to overcome the difference before the finish line? Could see times never before imagined. Sure, I know the big argument: who's got 200 cones? Well, if the logistics don't work out, at least the concept is worth considering.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:17 am

Oh, one other thing. There's been quite a bit of discussion about how long it takes and how much effort is needed to set up a 100-cone course. Here's a question for you: are y'all setting the course and CIRCLING all the cones with chalk?

My question would be why bother? The cone spacing doesn't matter. As long as you have a good measure pace, just step off the difference and replace a tipped cone. As long as you have a STRAIGHT LINE marked on the street, why bother with the circles? That's a lot of effort for a course that doesn't demand any sense of accurate consistency. All you need to do is make sure you have 100 cones in a straight line.

If one cone is 6 foot and the next is 5'11 and the next is 6'1", what difference does it make? It's the count that matters.

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Post by Noah Heinle » Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:32 am

You could probably pace out 100 cones in 5-10 minutes. With 2 guys, it takes no extra time for one to follow the setter and put a small mark where the cone should be. (full circle not necessary) This definitely helps the cones go back in place faster and keep things moving much better than having to re-pace each knocked gate after runs. You WILL knock gates after runs. Also, I do think that when you’re in the groove that you need to be in to do this, consistency in spacing is crucial as only the right line will get you through clean.
In trying this twice now, I’ve realized that what takes the longest amt of time is actually setting 100 cones in a STRAIGHT line consistent with your fall line. If I was smarter, I’d bring a 100 ft string with me next time, but I’m not smarter.
The times I wrote were ballpark, if that, as compared to whatever happened in France at the time of the record. There’s probably a 1 sec margin of error with my stopwatch. Besides, I don’t see how any of the times that any of us post in different venues can be compared to each other, but it’s still fun.
ur13 and I had a great practice before the Boston race….we set a 5.5” straight dual and drag raced til midnight. It was really fun. Bring on the dual 100!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Noah Heinle on 2002-11-30 20:35 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Noah Heinle on 2002-11-30 20:36 ]</font>

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Post by Vlad Popov » Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:36 am

If Gaythersburg’s “Park and Ride” fits 100 cones on the left side, lets do it right after the Second Winter-Series DC Outlaw race on December 07.
I propose limited practice time and 2 timed runs.
Let’s hope it doesn’t snow. Ski resorts nearby will be open should we need a good substitute for slalom.

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Post by John Gilmour » Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:42 am

The funny thing about the cone spacing is that if you think you can go faster by making the cone spacing larger by say.....1 foot. Well there are 99 cone spacings in 100 cones so you just made the course 99 feet longer. Somehow it all seems to come out pretty much the same.

At about 7.5 feet on a seriously steep hill you might be able to run teh gates at a very high rate of speed- but the fatgiue might come faster as well. Hard to say.

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Post by Chris Chaput » Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:58 am

That's what makes this thing so interesting. Gilmour go to sleep. It's now Sunday where you live.

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Post by Gary Holl » Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:34 pm

We tried the 100 Cone Challenge on Saturday at Shoreline. This parking lot has a slight downhill (1st 25 cones) maybe 1% grade, then it goes slightly uphill (2nd 25 cones) then downhill(20 cones), then up (20 cones)and then flat (10 cones). We used a timer with a manual start at the 1st gate and a IR beam at the bottom (last cone), I think my time was 25.21 + 3 cones...but I have cold and if I was healthy I could knock some time off. I did have two fast clean runs but we had timer problems.

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Post by Gary Holl » Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:51 pm

My time was 25.31 +3cones. When I look at the photos posted that show the Women's record holder I notice they are starting with a ramp and there is a significant amount of hill (1st 1/3 of the course). I think it would be safe to say that the "record holders" are for that hill, on that day, period. Unless everyone is on a true flat course ,comparing times from different locations, in my opinion, is useless. (but still fun).

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:35 am

Gary,

That's close to what I was saying two weeks ago. This record IS NOT about traveling a certain distance through 100 cones. It's about MAKING 100 cones. Period. If someone can set up 100 cones at 4 feet and reduce the travel distance to 396 feet, then power to 'em. Furthermore, if you set up 100 cones on a really steep hill, wiggle like a sewing maching needle and go even faster, then BAM! You've set another record.

Gilmour and Vlad think I'm crazy, but I still think the standard should be 100 cones. Period. Make it or don't. If it is made, though, then start making it in shorter and shorter times.

This is sort of like an Evil Knievel bike jump. (Without the blood and broken Harley Davidsons.) No one ever measured how far the bike went BEFORE it crashed into the landing ramp. He either jumped 30 cars or he didn't. He either cleared the fountains or he didn't. (He didn't, by the way.) The same should be true with 100 cones.

I know: the Europeans had cone penalties. Well, I've never been to France, so what's their standard to me? Maybe my standard would mean a DIFFERENT world record than Luca's, but that's the breaks. Sometimes things change. Whether it's a steep hill, 6-foot spacing, flat, 5.5-foot, start ramp, push start or whatever, the only real consistent parameter is MAKING 100 CONES. That's sets a record.

Oh, and about this cone penalty thing. We've already seen here in the US where different courses result in different penalties. The Giant Slalom sometimes is .2, the tight .1, etc. So maybe we should have a .1 second penalty for 6-foot 100 cones courses and .05 for 5-foot courses? Or maybe 1.25 for 7-foot courses? Or maybe no cone penalty at all, just 10% of the course on a shallow hill, 15% on a steep one? The variables get to be mindboggling.

The only standard that can really translate to any hill, any spacing, any start or any surface is 100 cones. Do it or don't. And if someone on the West Coast does it faster on a steeper hill than someone over here, that just means that the East Coast has to find a steeper hill.

What could be more simple?

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:54 am

Gary,

Of course you can compare since the rules are (apart from the 100 cones)...
- Whatever hill you like.
- Start with as much speed as you like.

The thing is to get into the course in your max cone speed and keep that speed until the end. It's as simple as that (in theory).

The tricky thing is that each person probably has an optimal cone distance for his board and the specific hill and other possible factors. So setting up a course for a world record attempt should be done to fit the fastest skaters. But then of course this would be to fast for most other skaters. So even using the same course, same hill at a specific day wouldn't be fair.

And if that wasn't enough don't forget that to get an offical result this should be done in an official competition where you have 2 runs. This not meaning that inofficial results and course setups are not interesting to hear about. They are for us slalom freaks! But for the general public who cares about what hight a highjumper has made during practice in his backyard.

Wesley,

I don't see the cone penalty as a problem. It's not an exact sience. Only a way of awarding them who do make a clean run. Not to penalize/disqualify the 95% of the others who do hit one or more cones.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hans Koraeus on 2002-12-03 19:05 ]</font>

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:02 am

Gary and Hans,
I hope everyone who tries to approach/break the record keeps in mind that it’s not official, and is just for fun/exercise. I do believe in one ideal pitch/cone distance for a 100-cone course. Not all courses are the same. And even flat courses will differ in pavement quality/wind/air conditions and latitude.

Wes,
If the current rules are to be altered, it’ll open a door for debates/suggestions/fights and crazy guys like me who couldn’t beat the 100-cone course record, but after adding one cone set a new 101-cone world record. Making it clean in one minute flat time. One meter is one meter. The meter standard is in Troyes, France. Some people don’t like France, but most are happy with the meter.

We posted better times on a flatter course. The steeper the hill the less chances one has to succeed. West Coast has absolutely no advantage.

Vlad.

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Post by Gary Holl » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:32 am

I understand. No worries.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:42 am

Vlad,

For most of us the record is not within our reach anyway but that doesn't mean we can't get serious about it. It's just that there are offical and not official results. And the fastest skaters may go for the world record. If that's not reached they have the worlds fastest time of the year that in my eyes are just as admirable. For the rest of us we have our personal best. And not to forget the national records a.s.o.

Course conditions will never be comparable but I don't see that as a problem. It's just one added factor on top of all the existing ones we have in our normal competitions. But the thrill to compare times over the time overshadows this by far.

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Post by Henry Hester » Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:16 am

Is there anything to the overall distance of the 100 man march? I mean, would it be faster at 6.5 feet or even 7ft? There is probably some distance between cones that allow for the fastest A to Z time. Understanding and respecting JG's International 1.7 meter cone setting.

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Post by Henry Hester » Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:22 am

Whoops! That's what happens when you don't read the thread. :smile: You already covered the distance thing. I'd attempt it a 6.5',

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Post by Guest » Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:34 am

Henry - I would think 6.5' OC would be the fastest for a few reasons. Most TS slalom decks on the market has wheelbases that run optimum to this cone distance, 6.5' OC is a no brainer on a small pitch/flat surface allowing for more of a strightline and 6.5' OC seems to be a sweet spot for most people's pumps.

Given all that I would prefer to run it at 1.7m...but hey there is room for 1.7m, 2m, 2m+ spacings in 100 cones.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Dec 04, 2002 3:05 am

I had to think about this so it would be simple:

Rule 1: Run 100 cones CLEAN
Rule 2: Do it faster than anyone else.

• Did Luca run 100 cones clean when he set his record? No. So his record is not THIS record.
• Does everyone ride the same board setting the record? No.
• So why is pitch, surface, start, spacing or weather anymore of a deciding factor? It isn't.
• Just as you set up a board to optimum tweak to run a 100-cone course, so you can set up a course to achieve optimum speeds. It's the time it take to clear 100 cones that counts.
• Is this a standard that is applicable to every location and every rider? Absolutely. Set up 100 cones in a straight line and run it clean. Simple.
• What if a skater can't run 100 cones clean? Then SLOW DOWN TIL YOU CAN! This record is as much about precision as it is speed. If you have to slow down to get it precise, then do so. (Is no one else who slaloms a musician?) Can anyone possibly put forward an argument that says you have to criddle cone 73 in order to make cone 74? Geez. They are in a straight line.
• Vlad says there would be lots of bickering and argument if the Euro '95 standard was changed. Seems to me from this past couple of weeks it's the Euro standard that has everyone on both coasts flummoxed as to who is running the fastest times. Remember, the Euro 95 record was set with everyone gathered in one place at one time running one course under conditions applicable to all.

The only real arguments that I've heard against my proposal is:
a. Running 100 cones clean is very difficult
b. It's not what the Europeans did.

Well, who said a world record should be easy and b) The Europeans standard will be great as soon as we all show up in the same place at the same time on the same course under the same conditions and spend a whole day running 100 cones. When's that gonna happen in these United States?

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Dec 04, 2002 3:54 am

Wes,

I believe it was Martin Sweeney (GB, or England) who set the first 100-cone course and, consequently, the first world record. Martin is one of those people who “didn’t like “European” courses” and would have loved “to double the number of cones” (in “a European course” (I’m quoting this from memory as I recall it appeared in one of the Slalom! magazines, please correct me if I‘m wrong). So, I’d say a 100-course thing is British rather then European.

If we were to vote on this non-existent issue, cone-hitters will probably win by a great margin. Well, on the other hand, maybe people will see it as another way to cheat the current world record and post their own.
You know how much the NCDSA crowd hates to be reminded of Luca and “the past”? I know! :smile:

Try running a 100-cone course clean. I actually did it a couple of times (Ohm asked me), and it is a totally different exercise. There is no fun in it, it’s slow and it just sucks.

Vlad,
the current 91, 93, 97 and 101-cone “dirty” and(!) “clean” world champion (that’s what I ran last time).

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Dec 04, 2002 4:16 am

Hans,
I agree.

I'm 30 years old. I started racing in June this year. I don't plan to beat Luca's record. It's absurd!
But one should have ambitions if he's to succeed, and if the ego-tickling "world record attempt" title is taken out of the game, one might lose his interest. You have and will see a lot of attempts to find a loophole in the process of trying to beat the best. It's only human. What the officials consider official will be official. It will be unfortunate if this innocent "world record" idea gets in the wrong powerful hands and gets manipulated in such a way that an average slalomer will be able to earn a "world champion" title.

Vlad.

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Post by Andy Bittner » Wed Dec 04, 2002 4:18 am

For whatever it's worth, I'm with Wesley Tucker on this one. I agree that it should be as simple as he is making it.

1. Run 100 cones clean
2. Do it faster than anyone else

When put this way, nothing else matters. Run 'em at 4' or 10', on flat or off of a cliff. Hit one? Try again. Can't make it through 100 cones clean? Go get in line for the 75-cone course record event.

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Dec 04, 2002 4:37 am

And the fun begins. Again!

Dear Slalom Theorists. Would you please try running a 100-cone course and then try to run it clean? Compare the "feelings", then come back and we'll chat.

Maybe anyone wants to add wet pavement for more fun? No?
It would be the ultimate edge control exercise, which will allow only the best "all around" slalomer to make the course clean. "Lucas" will never be able to make it to the 10th cone because they use 94-97A wheels and pump like crazy.

Pardon my sarcasm, I just had an irresistible desire to imagine the consequences of the "people's vote".

Andy, how many 100-cone runs do you think a human can afford during a race session? Will the race organizers and participants have all the time to wait for everybody to finish their "clean" attempts? Who would want to run it as a separate race, i.e., not in conjunction with other races?

I seriously don't know. What do you think?

Vlad.

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Post by Brian Morris » Wed Dec 04, 2002 4:56 am

Would anybody be interested in running a 100 cone race? Maybe even a duel 100 cone course? I'm trying to orginize some races for next season. Not to sound like a sleezy race promotor, but I am pretty sure my town would love the idea of possibibly being involved in a World Record.

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Post by Guest » Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:11 am

Brian, if you have the space to run a 100 cone 6' OC dual race...more power too you, it should be straight though.

Maybe it is time with this 100 cone thing to standardize it and run it like the cyber slalomw is run for NCDSA. Lets call it the slalomskateboarder challenge....run 100 6' OC cones on as fat of a surface as one can and post your times here, we can compare and such. Lets not worry about world records at this point until we can all agree on a standard course setup. Granted setting up 100 cones and finding a place to do it takes alot more than the cyber slalom, but it is do-able...

personally I would rather run a 80'ish cone TS with some curves and hips in it, mixed switch backs and stingers.

Straight drag races are fun for a little bit then they get boring quick. I enjoyed the 5.5' race you had but honestly that was enough of that for me, once a year is a enough for that.

:smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Stepanek on 2002-12-03 23:15 ]</font>

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:13 am

....once a year is a enough for that.

Yeeep!
What value and face validity will the "world record" set in your city have?

Vlad.

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Post by Chris Chaput » Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:03 am

Define clean. We routinely hit, nudge and clip cones. If they don't fall or wind up completely outside of the circle, we act as if the run was clean and no penalty is assessed. Do you want to stipulate that even nudging a cone is grounds for disqualification too?

Why would you only want to consider clean runs when every form of organized slalom racing (save the CyberSlalom) has cone penalties instead of DQs?

Go out and pump as fast as you can with NO cones present for the same distance as 100 cones. You'll find that you won't be going much faster (if any) than if there were cones. This means that we're pumping as fast we can and IT WOULD NEVER BE MORE BENEFICIAL TO HIT A CONE than it would be to just go around it. It could only hurt the rider's time.

If hitting a cone were to be a DQ, we'd be standing around watching guys quit after 20 cones, quit after 43 cones, quit after 68 cones, quits after 77 cones quit after 91 cones (golly gee, he almost did it), quit after 93 cones... ...until someone finally made all 100. We'd then look at the invariably lame time that he posted and pretend to act as if we really cared that he ran clean, when what we really care about is his speed.

Cleanliness is NOT next to godliness. It's on aisle 3, next the shampoos and toothpaste.

Speed is what we care about. That's why we time our runs.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Chaput on 2002-12-04 02:08 ]</font>

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Post by Eric Groff » Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:08 am

Cones are what make up a slalom course, Since day one you take a penalty for hitting them, show me a race since the first organized profesional slalom race in 1965 in Anahiem, ca. where there was no penalty for hitting a cone? Why change things now?
Hit a cone take a penalty, go as fast as you can and try not to hit any cones,that is what makes a great racer, but great racers are also the fastest racer that post the fastest time with as little penalty as possiable.

As for pitch of hill, all hills are different, run whereever you can run it, post a time and lets see whos doin what, I do agree that there should be a standard as far as distance from start to first cone, Timer set at first and last cone and cone spacing.

Chicken Richy and I set a tight course(6ft centers) with a few small offsets to mix things up to practice for La Costa this year anticpating that we would see a true tight course on a fast hill, the hill we set it on we run 40mph GS on it is scary fast, How fast ? Ask John Oshei,Evans,Olson,Attila,Gorman,DP,Dave Hegstrom and a few of the others that ran it, it was bleepin fast. So we set this tight course about 50 cones and by the time you got to the last 20 cones they were coming at you so fast that it all looked like 1 long cone, it was all a blur at that point and it was all instinct and luck to get thru it, Chicken was the only one to run it clean. Running the 100 at 6ft on a hill like this would be near impossiable.

So come up with some sort of a standard, run it on a hill of your choice, If your times arnt as fast as my times, find a steeper hill and see if your times increase, if that hill is to fast for you to get a time then your fastest time is from the hill you recorded a time at, lets compare!
Arab

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Post by Brian Morris » Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:21 pm

Cause people in my town are like that. They would like to see something happened in our dumb town except for Debbie Harry.
[/quote]
Yeeep!
What value and face validity will the "world record" set in your city have?

Vlad.

[/quote]
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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:02 pm

Well, then. People from other towns will not come to your town, as you just confessed in calling a simple 100-cone course run a ”world record” attempt as a simple marketing trick.

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Post by Brian Morris » Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:28 pm

A "world record attempt" thats what it would be isn't it? I don't want to seem like I am getting wrapped up in the idea of the Guinness Book of Records, and leaving the skateboarding for last. My plan is to have a 100 Cone skateboard race in Hawthorne New Jersey, I think it would be great if one of us breaks a world record, but when you come from a town like mine, were its run by old folks who see any activity other than football in the park, stickball at the school, and pick up basketball games, dangerous and a waste of the towns time, using a marketing trick wouldn't be such a bad thing. I want to get something together to present to the town, maybe if they like it we will have a regular place to hold races.

On 2002-12-04 11:02, Vlad Popov wrote:
Well, then. People from other towns will not come to your town, as you just confessed in calling a simple 100-cone course run a ”world record” attempt as a simple marketing trick.
Wobbler

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Post by Noah Heinle » Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:00 pm

This is a great discussion. While there seem to be a lot of views on how to actually do it (spacing, pitch, latitude(!?), etc) I think everyone agrees that none of us will actually break the current record in our feeble attempts. There are just too many factors to consider if that were the point of this whole thing. But it's not. It's about fun and the challenge of doing it. Bring it on.

So I have to jump on the Tucker bandwagon and set my sights on making it clean while going as fast as I can. This is the only standard we can hope to have here. I disagree with Vlad's assertion that this is a different exercise all together and isn't fun. While JG was setting our course last Friday, I rode in at about cone 20 and made the remaining cones clean. It was my first attempt (ever) and the first 20 or so cones that I skipped were set on the steep part of the hill leaving a relatively flat surface for the rest. Getting through without hitting any was not hard and I was able to adjust and think about what I was doing. Do this a few times...don't concentrate on getting through fast (at first). Rather, focus on getting through and as in ANY course, you'll get faster and faster. But not Luca fast. Be realistic.

I know GBJ has been working hard on the organization of the USSSF so I understand why there are are no announced plans for 'The Gathering.' At this time last year, many of us had our calendars marked. I'm not suggesting that we need confirmed dates. If you were there last year, you'll likely bust your ass to get there this year and if you weren't there, you'll work harder not to miss it again. But may I suggest that this might be an ideal venue for a 100 cone challenge? Not only do you have 50+ skaters from around the world, but the 'main' hill at Seneca State Park would (maybe) be a great place for 100 cones. Of course, this idea is not meant to hamper the CyberSlalom cup at the Gathering, but rather, an activity to compliment it.

Go easy on me, Vlad.

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Post by Vlad Popov » Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:23 pm

Why would I be hard on you , Noah? You tired to make it clean, you made it clean, you enjoyed it. You’ve actually done it, we can talk not just hypothetically, but actually comparing what we felt

Chitchat time:

Were your clean times even close to your dirty times?
Was it about going as fast as you can?
Or was it more of going as fast as you can make it clean?

We had a little spectator’s crowed last time we ran a 100-cone course, the clean run looked the most spectacular. I was really upset to hear that, because it really felt like shit.
I ride it, I don’t care how it looks. All I care is how it feels and what’s my time.

“Dirty” Vlad.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:42 pm

It's quite amazing how we get all this discussion on the rules when the initial idea was to make the rules so damn simple. I fear the day we will start to talk about the rules for the already existing disciplines.

I don't see the 100-cones thing as a media spectable. It's a discipline like the others. That's why the cone penalty discussion is farfetched if the idea is not to implement the "clean run" strategy on all disciplines. And I don't think that will happen. I'm totally with Chris and ARAB that it's all about speed and not about making clean runs.

And Wesley. About the comment on "...whole day running..." that is alright for any inofficial results I guess. But for official results you have 2 competition runs, not the whole day. If we would have let Luca (and the others) continue running he would probably finally have made it clean and probably made an even faster time. For you who do care about clean runs though Jani did one at the same occation. I think he mentioned that very early on in this thread (which is becoming very long by the way...) with the time he made.

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Post by Noah Heinle » Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:06 pm

I like it clean, but sometimes, dirty is more exciting. Enough chitchat. See you Saturday. :smile:

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Post by Eric Groff » Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:48 pm

Anybody no everybody can run the course clean, Thats simply go as slow as possiable and you've done it........

I'm more into the racing aspect of it, I want to go as fast as I can and I really dont give a damn how many cones I hit, I'm going to try and hit as little as possible in my quest for speed and the fastest time, after all isnt that what racing is all about SPEED.

Trying to make it clean to me sounds like the Compulsary Round of figure skating, where as its not about the time it takes its about how good you look doing it.

I'm an over weight balding 41 yr old that doesnt look good doing anything, but I like to go as fast as I can when I can because when you get to be my age looks dont mean much anymore.

Lets come up with some type of standard
Actually no standard is needed at all, Hows this.
You run any cone spacing ie: 5 centers, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5 and so on.

Its 100 cones, timed from first and last cone, plain and simple.

Pitch of hill? Big deal run the course on the fastest hill you can handle, Whats your fastest time in the 6? I'm actually faster in the 7.5 then Giammarco but he is faster then me in the 5.5.

Arab

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Post by Henry Hester » Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:49 pm

Arab, correction, I usually puke on cone # 86.

Does that count as a downed cone?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Henry Hester on 2002-12-04 16:50 ]</font>

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Post by Henry Hester » Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:52 pm

Why did Chaput get such a cool picture?

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Post by Claude Regnier » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:59 am

Cones, cones and more cones. Fast, faster and fastest.

Dat's it dat's all. If there is an attempt to try organise a World record attempt day then perhaps Brain's competition day could be a qualifier.

There could be a series of qualifiers held and perhaps the top 20 or 30 could qualify for an Official attempt.

Noah, I don't think the G2 locale is very good for the 100 cone try. Fisrt road would be tooooo fasssst and although the picth on the second road may be a little slower that curve at the bottom, whewwwwwwww!

Hell you know me I'll go anywhere and am almost willing to try anything.

HH, barfing is all part of the game. Some of us got lots of game,eh!

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Post by Chris Chaput » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:46 am

That "cool" picture of me is from the Mollica clan at the SF GS.

Guiness is not the only "world record" game in town. In track and field and other sports there are "Olympic" records and "World" records, etc. Guiness tends to cover some bizarre records that aren't found in organized sports. "World" records are commonly accepted because the governing body de jour is respected enough to pass muster. Harry Egger holds the world speed skiing record at 154mph. Who is the sanctioning body? Do you know? Do you care? Probably not. Was the "100 cone" world slalom record set with a cone penalty in place? Few will know. Fewer will care. Whether or not the the 100 cone course was navigated perfectly, navigated with nudges that didn't count against the rider or navigated with cone penalties is largely immaterial. The only thing that really counts is that some allegedly "official" organization ran an event and an outcome was acheived. The title is awarded to the individual(s) who won with whatever rules were in place at the time. Period. After that, if someone wants to start a campaign to discredit the winners because his or her vision of what the race "should" have been about, it will fall on deaf ears. To the victor the spoils.

When you think about it, a 100 cone course that triggers timers which are positioned at the first and last cone isn't really "100 cones". Sure you can count 100 cones on the ground but there are only 99 spacings. In other words (and technically speaking), the 100 cone course isn't a 100 cone course. Most all courses have a finish line that is positioned at least as far away from the last cone as an average cone spacing. Combine that with a generous distance between the starting line and the first cone and you quickly realize the number of cones almost NEVER reflects a consistently defined course length. Add to that the various methods of entering the course (ramps, gates, unlimited, limited, push counts) and you quickly begin to realize that the "standard" is arbitrary and usually becomes whatever is popular. I have no problem whatsoever in calling this a "100 cone" course. Hitting one of the ONE HUNDRED cones doesn't suddenly make it a "99 cone course".

I'm really curious as to why no one responded to my question about the size of the cone's base for the 100 cone race. I think that it really needs to be stipulated in the rules. Just about everyone would whine if the fastest recorded time ever was done on a course set with thimble sized cones. It's one of the few things that can and does allow for much faster times.

What's very, very interesting about this whole debate is that there seems to be no agreement on what pitch or spacings will yield the best possible times. That means that no one really knows who (if anyone) is benefitting from a course setting of his own choosing. It seems as if we're all hung up on choosing a standard when we still don't even know what is optimal.

It seems to me that the best thing to do for now is to run it "freeform" until the best of the best have competed on various courses and have come to some unanimus conclusions. If racer X sets 100 full sized cones six feet apart on a straight line down a gentle slope and gets a time of 24 seconds, we'll never know how much that slope/wind/surface/temperature was a factor when comparing Gilmour's time of 23 seconds on a "similar" course. If Gilmour beats Racer X on one course, and Racer X beats Gilmour on another, it might be fair to say that courses are both good, but favor one rider's style. If Racer X beats Gilmour on ALL courses, it's fair to say that Racer X is faster than Gilmour. Take the average times from a GROUP of the fastest riders to find out which slope/spacings is the fastest. If there's going to be a standard, let's make it fast.

The fewest possible standards are:

1. 100 straight full sized cones, timed from first to last.
2. A cone penalty (and possible cap for a DQ)

Blaze into a 100 cone straight course with whatever start you like, on any hill, with any slope, with any surface, with any wind, with any cone spacing in any teperature and adjust your time with penalties. The smallest adjusted time wins. Do it with your friends and you have an unofficial time. Do it at a sanctioned event, you might just have a world record.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Chaput on 2002-12-06 01:53 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Chaput on 2002-12-06 01:54 ]</font>

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Post by Michael Dong » Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:39 am

I'm working my way up to 100 cones. 41 cones, 6 ft centers, perfectly flat, rough textured concrete surface, 38 degree temp, 25 ft push start, 11.99 sec (3.42 cones/sec). 4 cones/sec on the flat will be my goal for now.

What wheelbases (axle-to-axle) are working for you 100 coners? Mine is 22 3/4" right now and I think maybe shortening this a bit would go along way to help pumping at the start

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Post by David Eye » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:51 pm

If weather co-operates, I'll set a 100 cone course at the B. W. Pickett Equine Center parking lot sunday morning here in Fort Collins, CO.
We typically set a 60-70 cone monster course
for our local races that has a fast dog-leg
turn, dividing the course into two sections.
For 100 cones, we can stick to a straight course with a continual slight down grade. Typically, by mid-day we have a slight tail-wind here.
Any Colorado / front rangers lurking about
that are interested email me at home ;
David.Eye@attbi.com

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Post by Chris Chaput » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:03 pm

Michael, That's a pretty long wheelbase for "quick" pumping.

David, That reminds me, altitude and humidity will effect the density of the air. Add that to our list of uncontrollable factors and arbitrary standards.

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Post by Vlad Popov » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:18 pm

I used 16.5 and 18-inch wheelbases depending on the slope. I’d say 19 is the logical max unless the course is flat.
Snow is everywhere. We’ll try again next week.

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Post by Claude Regnier » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:26 pm


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Post by David Eye » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:32 pm

Chris; yup, no two courses will ever be the exactly the same, but I do not see that as a problem. Track and Field events have a similar challenge to standardize courses, but they do just fine
I really like the idea of these "canned course" challenges like Cyber slalom cup, 100
cone-r, etc. The head- to head races will always dominate, but its good for guys who live in out the "boon-ies" to be able to race themselves on these and compare to others, elsewhere.

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Post by Michael Dong » Sat Dec 07, 2002 2:53 am

Vlad,

Are those actual axle-to-axle wheelbases or inner hole to inner hole measurements?

thanks,

Michael

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Dec 07, 2002 5:08 am

Chris, that's the best I've seen so far. I think we are closing in on the official rules here.
1. 100 straight full sized cones, timed from first to last.
2. A cone penalty (and possible cap for a DQ)

Blaze into a 100 cone straight course with whatever start you like, on any hill, with any slope, with any surface, with any wind, with any cone spacing in any teperature and adjust your time with penalties. The smallest adjusted time wins. Do it with your friends and you have an unofficial time. Do it at a sanctioned event, you might just have a world record.
You do have a point about the cone size. That is actually an issue running different course setups. For me the standard cone size is approximately the one we see on the fixed forum picture on the top of all pages. A turner cone I believe. That one is 13,2 cm in diameter. I don't know how much that differs from other similar cone types. I guess what we need is a minimum cone diameter. Actually the height could be a thing to consider as well. For example imagine a cone with correct diameter but only an inch high. So we need a minimum hight as well. Same thing again. The turner cone is 22,7 cm high. I don't know how much that differs from other similar cone types.

So here we go again. 100 cone rules ver 1.1
-------------------------------------------
1. 100 straight "full sized" cones, timed from the middle of first cone to the middle of the last cone.
2. Cone penalty 0.1 sek for each "cone hit".

- "Full sized" = Minimum base diameter 12,5 cm and minimum hight 22 cm.
- "Cone hit" = Fallen cone or outside base circle.
-------------------------------------------

Blaze into a 100 cone straight course with whatever start you like, on any hill, with any slope, with any surface, with any wind, with any cone spacing in any temperature and adjust your time with penalties. The smallest adjusted time wins. Do it with your friends and you have an unofficial time. Do it at a sanctioned event, you might just have a world record.

What about that?

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Post by Chris Chaput » Sat Dec 07, 2002 6:33 pm

Hans, I'm glad that you see my point about the cone size. I had proposed a 5" minimum diameter and think that an 8" minimum height could work. That's 12.7cm and 20.32cm respectively.

The upside to having freeform cone spacings is that a lot of R&D could take place before any standard is decided upon. We've all seen what happens when one person imposes his course style on a group of racers who would never have set a course that way. It sucks. If standards are put in place after a large number of riders have tried (and liked) them, there's a better chance that the resulting course would have a more universal appeal than if someone just said "my race, my course".

The downside to having a freeform statndard is that at some point in time, a world record event will be held and there won't be time for everyone to set "his" course and the slope and surface won't be "his" either.

For now, freeform is okay with me. Let's see where it takes us. I think that having a course on a relatively fast hill and that allows for an unlimited push will tend to favor a guy like John Gilmour. It's about as fast as we're going to see 100 cones run. Aim high. Even if you fall short of being as fast as Gilmour, it's probably going to be faster than you would have done on your own.

As a matter of fact, Gilmour has been telling me how fat and out of shape he is lately. I agree. If we're going to have a non-freeform standard, let's have John choose it, John run it, and John set the course record. Then we have someone to blame for setting a type of course that caters to his style and there will be no speculation. Then there's only the issue of trying to beat him at his own game. Now THAT'S a challenge.

How about it John? Are you a willing fall guy? What's the game? What is the mark?

The plot thickens...

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