What Does "Queering A Venue" Mean?

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Joe Iacovelli
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Re: Too early

Post by Joe Iacovelli » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:33 pm

Jack Smith wrote: I feel that we are at a point in our sport where we probably need to decide if we want to continue with the "open" nature of the World Championships or move to some type of "qualifying standard". The racer part of me wants to stay with the open style of event, the organizer side of me wants to see a "qualified racer" system.
.
Please accept this in the serious manner it is meant.

Perhaps this idea of qualifying would eliminate people running into cars at the bottom of the hill?

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Re: Too early

Post by Rick Floyd » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:55 pm

Joe Iacovelli wrote:
Jack Smith wrote: I feel that we are at a point in our sport where we probably need to decide if we want to continue with the "open" nature of the World Championships or move to some type of "qualifying standard". The racer part of me wants to stay with the open style of event, the organizer side of me wants to see a "qualified racer" system.
.
Please accept this in the serious manner it is meant.

Perhaps this idea of qualifying would eliminate people running into cars at the bottom of the hill?
Joe - oh, Joe.
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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:09 pm

I was/am serious. When I first started racing i went to races where i just didn't belong. See my footbrake at Farm 02 for evidence.

Steve from AZ raced at the Bear, 03 maybe? Skull fracture at the first transition. Maybe he should not have been there. Now you have to be approved to race at the Bear.

I have turned newbies away from some races on larger hills. Antrim or The Farm are not a good beginner race. You need to come out to one of our clinics or smaller races first.

I'm not being disrespectful to Joyce. I admire her gumption, but worry that at World Championship levels, gumption can get you hurt and queer the venue for subsequent races.

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Hitting Cars

Post by Joyce Wheldrake » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:27 am

It is not a question of it I can skate good enough to compete in the Worlds. When I got to the end of the course, Judi was right beside me and I made sure she was out of the way. Then the car was reversing. There was no where to go. This was all happening within seconds. I would rather hit the car with my burly knee pads then take a slam. I cannot believe noone was directing traffic at the bottom. There was no escape. Noone cared anyways.
What is "queering the venue"?

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Re: Hitting Cars

Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:42 am

Joyce Wheldrake wrote:What is "queering the venue"?
Somebody getting busted up bad enough to scare away the town from permitting another event or worse yet shutting down an unfinished race. Fortunately, I don't think that has happened yet in the current era of slalom. I don't know about downhill.
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Hood River

Post by Joyce Wheldrake » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:53 am

Wesley, Thank you for explaining that to me. The way I hear it, some people dont want to go back to Hood River because they have been to so many contests there, they are bored with the place. One of the best parts of slalom is to see the world. Some of my friends really dont want to go back next year.
Hood River is a real extrem town. People die there all the time, either at Mt. Hood, in the river, or riding bikes. I understand skateboarding to be a big of a dangerous sport. No one bats at eye at a broken collarbone there.
From all the skateboarding I have done in contests, this is my 4th year in ISSA, my 32+ years of skateboard experience, years street skating in Toronto with 56 mm wheels, cement riding, the big bowls of BC, Burnside, Mexico, Kona, Florida, NYC, Canada, Netherlands and Germany, Hood River is intimidating for your first time. With all that I have done, I have never hit a car nor really hurt myself or broken any bones. I dont expect much when it is my first time in the town, and then you have to ride in a contest. I splatted in a GS in Hannover trying new equipment, but have never really fallen off the board.
Like what has been said "What doesnt kill me will only make me stronger."
As far as this Woman Pro, Woman Am thing. My Dad said to go in Amateur so it could remain to be fun. I am not all sponsored up, so I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself. The decision was made for me, we are all going Pro. I dont expect anything for prizes or swag now, and may even volunteer for coneheading.
See you there!

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:46 am

Joyce

HAHAHAHAHA - It thought you hit a parked car. HAHAHAHAHA. Why should you have to pay for a car that pulled in front of you at a sanctioned race?

Wesley,

There is more than one example of a queered venue in this century, but the best one for my purpose is when Brian Morgan rolled down a ramp and snapped his leg at a race that he should not have entered, Red Bull Urban Waves. It was to be the first in a series, but a clueless kid made it the first and only. It could have been the start of something big and the corporate sponsorship we are sorely lacking.

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Post by Zach McCaw » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:20 am

Joyce hit a car? nice.

Injuries happen in sports, I'm sure there is something in the waiver at every race saying that if for any reason the organizer, affiliated staff or volunteers, or empowered official feels you aren't taking proper safety precautions, are using broken or hazardous equipment, or that your skill level is not enough to maintain safety for yourself and other riders, you will be withdrawn from race until any and all concerns by those appointed are satisfied, ETC.

Seems like it's already covered. If you feel like somebody is going to hurt themselves, and you want to be the guy to shut them down, do it. It's your race, I would too if I thought it would be a problem. You'd be a dick though.

I would withdraw them, then set them up with somebody with some free time to give them some tips, test their aptitude, and then report back to me if it's a good idea to bracket them in. That seems like the better idea, but it's all about how the event is run, and what time you and others have for these things.

my cents.

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:09 pm

Zach,

I may be the biggest dick in this sport :-)

To be complete though, not every rider I've questioned got turned down. Some got coaching and then rode. Others got equipment loans. The few people I have turned away were invited to participate in other races the same day.

IMO it is whats best for the newbie, the town, and for me. I don't believe having someone sign a waiver eliminates the promoter's responsibility.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:03 pm

hey joyce

next time you come to germany,please make a stop in düsseldorf.
we have 2 bowls and would love to skate those with you.
there is a nice backyard bowl we built,you gonna love that one for sure.
32 years experience....wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Zach McCaw » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:53 am

Joe Iacovelli wrote:Zach,

I may be the biggest dick in this sport :-)

To be complete though, not every rider I've questioned got turned down. Some got coaching and then rode. Others got equipment loans. The few people I have turned away were invited to participate in other races the same day.

IMO it is whats best for the newbie, the town, and for me. I don't believe having someone sign a waiver eliminates the promoter's responsibility.
Hey Joe, from what I've been told you'd be part of the latter camp, which is rad, and that you're a class act atleast in this respect ;).

Just saying DQing someone is a dick move you have to make if you're a promoter, and if you don't want to do it, you shouldn't be doing the race. It's your responsibility, and it can save you troubles.

Waiver is all liability, responsibility is a whole other thing in my mind.

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Post by Cat Young » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:56 pm

I have never claimed to be all knowing about skateboarding or slalom contests. I simply have an opinion just like everyone else. I seldom like to complain unless I have an opinion about a possible solution. I post because I care, it's that simple.
I have been called out before (privately) about posting too much. For those (few) that think I post too much...... I say, BITE ME!

In my opinion, I think qualifying in at least one "Basic" sanctioned event to be eligible to even sign up for a "Main" or "Major" event is a good idea. Depending on how many people race in a "Basic" contest, if you can't qualify in the top 8 or 16, you have no business competing in a "Main" or "Major". Screw the "Pro", "Am", "Masters", "Women", "Jr" divisions. Everyone qualifies together, then gets divided into A, B, C.

It's one thing to make it around cones. It's another thing to be able to be good enough to make snap decisions if you get into trouble in a course.

The 2007 Buckeye Open is a great example. For the 6 months or so experience I had, I was fairly good at getting around the cones, but not that good at knowing what to do if a situation came up where I had to do something quickly to avoid a mishap.
At the end of the run, I was late on a cone & got a little off course. Instead of "criddling" the cone, (didn't even know what that meant back then) I almost dove to make the next cone to get across the finish line.
I wasn't knowledgeable enough to know better NOT to do everything I could to try to make that cone, and not get hurt. I was very lucky I didn't get hurt worse than I did. I left some major skin on that hill & now have a "map of Florida" tattooed on my right calf.... the pigment will never grow back.

So, in my opinion, having to first qualify BEFORE even putting your name on the sign up sheet would take care of the liability AND responsibility.

My 2 cents, Pauliwog!
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:19 pm

That's simple:

Only those slalom skateboarders with World Ranking points will be considered to compete in ISSA Main and Major events.

If an organizer wants to apply for the World Championships or any Main/Major event then it must be implicitly guaranteed that registration fees and waivers will only be accepted from those slalom skaters who have world ranking points.

Enforcing this sort of agreement between the ISSA and race promoters, however, is another matter. (As in what to do if a promoter agrees to these terms and then takes $100 from a newbie and allows a qualifying run anyway.)

And this can go all the way up: gotta have Basic points to race in a Prime, Prime to race in a Main and Main to race in a Major.

It all depends on what the Board and the members want to do.
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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:53 pm

Wesley,

I think that's a sensible answer, but pragmatialy needs to be coupled with a promoter's right to waive the restriction. Under this rule Bob Skoldberg, Scoot Smith, and Tony Alva would need to be turned away. I see it as a rule that helps protect the promoter (sponsors, town, etc) and encourage participation at smaller events.

Joe

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Post by Rick Floyd » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:26 am

Wesley Tucker wrote:...gotta have Basic points to race in a Prime, Prime to race in a Main and Main to race in a Major.
Perfect Wes. I like it.

And Joe - I see your point of course, but in reality, would anyone turn those guys away? And would anyone complain if they let them race. I doubt it.

-RF
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Post by Zach McCaw » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:35 am

Well, that would suck for me if the race that I'm helping ORGANIZE becomes a prime, I won't be able to race because I've never been to an ISSA race before, and I'm not about to jump on a plane to go to a basic so I can race a prime in my backyard, that's ass backwards. I see your point, I just think there is no absolute in this issue, and it has to be a case by case (or race by race) basis. ISSA shouldn't be involved in my opinion, it's totally the organizer. If they decide you need prerequisite points, that's understandable , if they want to make a responsible compromise, that's rad. But hey, I like skating with and teaching other (new) people, not where some of you are at (by your own admissions).

It's skateboarding, people are going to bail, and its more likely going to be somebody pushing the course in my experience than somebody new just trying to get around the cones as far as my experience. Just make sure to instill the proper amount of fear in the new guys so they don't get all macho and think they can defy physics, though there is always one dumbass who does, and that's why you weed them out.

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Post by Rick Floyd » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:02 am

Zach McCaw wrote:Well, that would suck for me if the race that I'm helping ORGANIZE becomes a prime, I won't be able to race because I've never been to an ISSA race before, and I'm not about to jump on a plane to go to a basic so I can race a prime in my backyard, that's ass backwards.
Zach - You are right, that would be ass-backwards. But I doubt the ISSA would just go and all of a sudden make a rule like this. In any organized sport, time is given for people to prepare. For instance, you make it a rule for next year, or the year after, and anyone interested in getting into the sport makes sure they start hittin' up some lower level races. Making a basic a pre-req for prime may sound like overkill, but at last year's US Nationals in Morro Bay (a PRIME), the Super-G had a fourteen foot high start ramp and we were hitting 40-45 mph on the course. I'm pretty sure nobody would be dumb enough to launch off that ramp and go 40+ with limited experience, and I'm equally sure that someone there would have recognized it before it happened and put a stop to it.

-RF
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Post by Christopher Bara » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:08 am

But see there...that's a big part of the problem....basic...prime...this whole bastard stepchild that's been created...basic or prime mean NOTHING...they have nothing to do with the difficulty of a race, nor of the skaters who sign up...AND THEY NEVER HAVE!!

It's just some bullshit assigned by this ridiculous committee that "sanctions" races...

The Buckeye that Cat referred to could have been a Basic and the same people still would have shown up, the courses would have still been gnarly and rookies still should have been kept off some of it, such as the TS...

the status of a race has nothing to do with it.

Unless, we reach the point where....Basic races are easy, on easy hills, Prime are tougher, then Mains and so on...

But this is all a very good point...and Cat raises one too....

If it's the Worlds...or even the Nats....ANYBODY in this sport can enter...that's just dumb...if that's the case, WHY is it such a big race?

The courses are not REQUIRED to be more difficult....you dont have to qualify in a lesser, regional race to get there...you dont have to hit any particular mark in qualifying AT the race...

SO ...... basically......it's just another race......

As for this whole thread....If we MUST keep these race status(es?).... absolutely...Basics should be homegrown and fun....and anybody can enter...maybe even Prime....but Mains should get tougher and some people may have to qualify in....and Majors should be gnarly as hell.....

If we're going to keep the statuses......there needs to be progression from one level to the next...and absolutely qualification....

And Rick....good point, but not necessarily true....case in point is the 08 Dixie and the monster ramps...there were people there that never rode transition coming off those ramps...and some of them were pretty sketchy

Goodnight

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Post by Rick Floyd » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:55 am

Christopher Bara wrote:But see there...that's a big part of the problem....basic...prime...this whole bastard stepchild that's been created...basic or prime mean NOTHING...they have nothing to do with the difficulty of a race, nor of the skaters who sign up...AND THEY NEVER HAVE!!

It's just some bullshit assigned by this ridiculous committee that "sanctions" races...

The Buckeye that Cat referred to could have been a Basic and the same people still would have shown up, the courses would have still been gnarly and rookies still should have been kept off some of it, such as the TS...

the status of a race has nothing to do with it.

Unless, we reach the point where....Basic races are easy, on easy hills, Prime are tougher, then Mains and so on...As for this whole thread....If we MUST keep these race status(es?).... absolutely...Basics should be homegrown and fun....and anybody can enter...maybe even Prime....but Mains should get tougher and some people may have to qualify in....and Majors should be gnarly as hell...If we're going to keep the statuses......there needs to be progression from one level to the next...and absolutely qualification....
You're right Chris. Totally agree with that.
Christopher Bara wrote:

And Rick....good point, but not necessarily true....case in point is the 08 Dixie and the monster ramps...there were people there that never rode transition coming off those ramps...and some of them were pretty sketchy

Goodnight
Also right - forgot about that. The Dixie big ramps were even gnarlier for the uninitiated than Johnny's Thunderdome IMO.

However, I think the issue raised above is that if some noob gets hurt, we are afraid of losing a venue because of it, or having a liability issue. I get that we are most often different from a ski/snowboard race in that we are not using an area reserved for our activity and covered by insurance for it as part of the overall picture. But, aren't we kidding ourselves if we think nobody will ever get hurt no matter how high the talent level is? What if somebody had snapped a kingpin on Turri and gone down, through no fault of their own (except maybe not replacing kingpins often enough), and really got messed up? There was one of my runs at the Dixie GS where I had to wave off the "racer ready" because people (OUR people ;-)) were standing almost in my course further down with their backs to the start ramp - glad I looked! The point is, S can happen.

I guess I don't have a solution to all this, but that's more to consider anyway.

-RF
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Biggest dick in the sport

Post by Andy Bittner » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:33 pm

By the way, Joe I., I'm the guy who threw the Nature Boy out of a Gathering (something of a slalom lovefest). I'm pretty sure I'm still the biggest dick in the sport, even if I haven't much been in the sport lately.

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:47 pm

noted

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Re: Biggest dick in the sport

Post by Cat Young » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:10 pm

Andy Bittner wrote:By the way, Joe I., I'm the guy who threw the Nature Boy out of a Gathering (something of a slalom lovefest). I'm pretty sure I'm still the biggest dick in the sport, even if I haven't much been in the sport lately.
Oh do tell, Andy.
We need a good story, it's been awhile.
Chaput hasn't been posting for awhile!
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Re: Biggest dick in the sport

Post by Cat Young » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:11 pm

Andy Bittner wrote:By the way, Joe I., I'm the guy who threw the Nature Boy out of a Gathering (something of a slalom lovefest). I'm pretty sure I'm still the biggest dick in the sport, even if I haven't much been in the sport lately.
Oh do tell, Andy.
We need a good story.
Chaput hasn't been posting for awhile!
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Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:14 pm

Cat,

Ask an East Coaster in Texas this weekend.

Let's not crank up that bag of worms again.

And I will grab the DELETE key if anyone decides to be clever.
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Post by Cat Young » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:24 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote:Cat,

Ask an East Coaster in Texas this weekend.

Let's not crank up that bag of worms again.

And I will grab the DELETE key if anyone decides to be clever.
It's that good, huh???
:)
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Queering the Venue

Post by Joyce Wheldrake » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:45 pm

With a turn of the words, I would like to start a new topic:
The VENUE IS QUEERED. or with any such words you would like to use.
Let us all continue discussion of possibly turning off the venue.
But it aint going to be me.

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Referee... not.

Post by Andy Bittner » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:56 pm

No need to referee this old situation, Wes. Kenny and I have, long since, put that behind us. For those of us actually involved, it's become a "look back and laugh" issue.

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Post by Robert Sydia » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:45 pm

Andy:

I think I have a picture of the park security escorting Kenny out that day!!

Biggest dick - NEVER - there are far bigger dicks than you!!! :)

Rob

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Post by Rick Floyd » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:22 pm

...and Fuller Bags
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Post by Robert Sydia » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:29 pm

Rick:

Cheers, brother!!

Rob

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Post by Rick Floyd » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:25 pm

EVERYTHING is bigger in Texas! :-)
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Post by Paul Howard » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:59 pm

.........Then it's just a "race". Show me the burgers. -P
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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:13 pm

Were a number of posts just deleted from here?

Where did they go?

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:18 pm

I deleted them. My question about a race promoters rights spawned a lot of drama. I don't want to be responsible for creating that. I apologize for wasting your time Pat and anyone elses that took the time to reply, but I was considering how this thread would be read by the public.

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Post by Rob Ashby » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:12 pm

Good going Joe - damage limitation time.

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:24 pm

Joe Iacovelli wrote:I deleted them. My question about a race promoters rights spawned a lot of drama. I don't want to be responsible for creating that. I apologize for wasting your time Pat and anyone elses that took the time to reply, but I was considering how this thread would be read by the public.
Your question also spawned some answers that might be valuable for present and future race promoters.

======================

I'll summarize: If racers act irresponsibly enough, race promoters have the power (in the ISSA rules) to DQ them from the race. Race organizers have a memory ... you may not be able to enter their races in the future. Race organizers talk to each other and share information ... you may not be able to enter ANY races in the future.

Race organizers may take this action against you to preserve the venue or to preserve the potential for the ISSA to secure future venues.
Last edited by Pat Chewning on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Sj Kalliokoski » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:29 pm

Foud it, thanks
-pokkis
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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:33 pm

Sj Kalliokoski wrote:Where that is stated in rules? I tried to look but could not find?
Rules are here: http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/Media ... ARules.pdf

Specifically rule 4.4 (Disqualification) has a clause for "Unsporting Behavior"

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Post by Sj Kalliokoski » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:36 pm

Yep, found it, was just confused due that states DQ from run, not from race
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