RT-S/X bent axles.

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Wes Eastridge
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Post by Wes Eastridge » Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:05 am

What is it with these trucks being made with bent axles? I’ve heard that even after removing the bent axle, a non-straight hole is left. How can that be? How did they get a metal rod into an axle cavity that isn’t straight? However it happens, I wish Tracker would change to the method of construction that they used in the mid-late ‘80s. The numerous Sixtracks I have from then are all of excellent quality. The reissued Fulltracks and Midtracks don't have bent axles, why is it that the RTXs and RTSs do?

I’m posting this hoping that Buddy Carr will see it and correct the problem.

Glenn S
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Post by Glenn S » Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:45 pm

What are the best ways to see if your axles are straight?

WesE, How do you test them?

After you posted the above, I tested mine by putting one end of the hanger,wheels off, in my drill press. Using this method, they were all off at the other end, some by as much as 3/16 to a 1/4" wobble. I tested 8 RTX/S hangers, all new and unused.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Glenn on 2003-02-28 18:42 ]</font>

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Post by Leonardo Ojeda » Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:06 pm

Shnitzel told me his secret to test ebnt axles:

take ur deck by the front or rear truck(depending which one u want to test) and turn the wheels on counter-rotation motion
, that means if u spin the left wheel toward or body u have to move the right wheel outwards.

If the decks spins by his longest axle (from nose to tail of deck) this means that the axles are bent or unnalligned.

hope this helps

leo

Wes Eastridge
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Post by Wes Eastridge » Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:11 pm

My first way of determining if the axles are bent is just to look at it. To do this best, I remove the speed rings and hold the truck about 18 inches from my face, with the pivot end facing me, with a white background beyond the truck, such as a white-painted interior wall of a room. Then just look and try to compare each end with the other. If you’re still not sure about it, the dead giveaway is to hold the truck, not installed on on a deck, with each hand gripping a wheel, and bend the wheels in the opposite direction than what you suspect the axles are bent to. If the truck starts to spin upwards, at least one of the exles is bent.

If the cavity where the axle goes into the hanger were straight, the user could at least replace the axle. Since it's NOT straight, the cavity has to be reamed out for a straight axle to be installed.

Vlad Popov
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Post by Vlad Popov » Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:00 am

I begged Trucker to send me RTs early last season, when they sold out the first bunch of trucks. They only had one pair, but it was "the team" trucks. Because I've sold several Cadillacs to blind people in the past, it was not a problem getting a pair of the red team tucks for myself and later for Jani. You'd think the team trucks are the *it, and are different quality. And you'd be right. They are different. The hangers are polished, so there is no need to file them (so that they don't ruin the pivot cups in two weeks).

I'm going to get my RTs back from Geezer-X (Eric Walgreen) soon, and he's going to tell me how bent the "team" axles were.

And then I'm going to race the same trucks on the same course. I know their limit up to a hundreds (!) of a second with the original axels. We'll see what difference real straight 8- mm axle makes.


It'd be interesting to compare the test results. But what'd be more interesting for me is to make predictions and compare them with the actual times.

Prediction (the one for comparison with the next-week test results): I don't think I will be able to go over .1 as min or . 2 as max seconds faster on the straight-axle true-8-mm trucks on the same course.

And more predictions for the hell of predicting and taking more of the database space:

Prediction: straight axle trucks won't make over 9* % of people a better skater.
Prediction: same percentage (essentially same people) will find something else to blame/complain about after they pay $**. 00 for straightening their axels or getting PVDs or other precise trucks.
Prediction: (with the help of the precision axels) the fast racers will shave tens (arbitrary) off their best runs and be (full) seconds faster then the slow racers. Slow racers will shave off tens off their fast runs and be seconds slower then the fast racers. Nothing will change in the standings, and essentially nothing but the subjective feelings will change. The mass hysteria about crooked axels and their tremendous affect on performance will vanish and the era of munching on the inferior rebound rates of bushings, boards 1990s' standards of longitudinal and torsional flexes and wheel's sluggish urethane performance (or whatever) will begin.

That is not to say that the straight axels are not cool and trucker RT axels don't suck ass. They do.
But they are good enough to post good times on the Cyber slalom course and place high in races. So, please put things in perspective and go from there. A $100 slalom set-up is enough to "get there". It is when one "is there" and wants to go further, one should consider spending hundred of dollars to help him shave off "hundreds" off his time and thousands of dollars to help him further shave off "thousands" off his time. I'm not going to argue against a simple fact that the technology helps better times. But I am going to argue against the need of using technology to better, for example, 20-second Cyber slalom times.

It's all in the head, not in the trucks.

See you here on Monday next week. I will hopefully post something in a different format. Like this one:

Last week's prediction:
This week's fact:

Fact…..
Fact…..
Fact…..
I like that "nostalgic" format :smile:


Vlad.

PS. Trucker doesn't sell team trucks to general public any more. Even though I bought over 10 pairs of trucks form them recently and paid over what the retailers charge for them, they refused to sell me another pair of team trucks. So, paint your trucks red and tell every one they are "special" if you think team trucks are the *it.

Wes Eastridge
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Post by Wes Eastridge » Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:43 am

Vlad, Why are you trying to dissuade me from publicly complaining about something regarding the Tracker RT-series that everyone knows is bad? As it is now, it's impossible to keep your wheels solidly spinning on the RT-series trucks because of the axles not being perpendicular to the bearing seat of the hanger, due precisely to the bent axle. One has to run their wheels floppy on the axle in order for them to spin and that's not good for your bearings, axles, or anything else. The solution is not hard for Tracker to implement (just put in a straight axle). I pay for the trucks, there's no reason they should be less than useable. And I don't know who you are referring to when you say "20-second cyber slalom times". We both know what my fastest times of the day are and that I was consistently slower when I tried the RT-series trucks. I agree with you in that it’s all in the head. Mine tells me that bent axles are a detriment to speed and that Tracker easily has the power to make their axles straight.

Vlad Popov
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Post by Vlad Popov » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:22 am

Vlad, Why are you trying to dissuade me from publicly complaining about something regarding the Tracker RT-series that everyone knows is bad?

I’m not, WesE, I’ve been complaining about the Tracker truck quality for a while myself. Remember when you told me I should not have come on so strong on Buddy on ncdsa with regards to crappy hangers and screwy axels?
But I do want to share my perspective on the same issue.

As it is now, it's impossible to keep your wheels solidly spinning on the RT-series trucks because of the axles not being perpendicular to the bearing seat of the hanger, due precisely to the bent axle.

And what does it do to one’s time? Where is scientific proof?

One has to run their wheels floppy on the axle in order for them to spin and that's not good for your bearings, axles, or anything else.

Agree. But it’s the final result that what counts. The final result is what the timer shows. Show me the times. :smile:

The solution is not hard for Tracker to implement (just put in a straight axle).

How do you know that? Heat=factor? Cost=factor?

I pay for the trucks, there's no reason they should be less than useable.

I pay for the trucks too, spend over $700 on trucks, bushings and applicable hardware last year. The most expensive ones, with the machined offset axle didn’t have nearly as much traction as the RTs with the standard bent axles. It was a "subjective decision", based on my feeling of traction on a steep hill, but good enough to switch to cheaper trucks right away.

And I don't know who you are referring to when you say "20-second cyber slalom times".

Not you. Not anyone for that matter.

We both know what my fastest times of the day are and that I was consistently slower when I tried the RT-series trucks.

Everything else should be the same when you compare trucks. As in every single variable. I know my set-up limits up to 2 hundreds of a second. I can call mine an empirical approach and yours a pure speculation based on subjective data.

Here is a deal:
$100, you will get $100 from me if your times on RTs with 8 mm axels that I just got back from Geezer are .5 seconds faster on the standard Cyber Slalom course.
Take 10 runs on one set-up and ten runs on another, and we’ll compare your times. You will not know which RTs you’re riding when, so that you won’t be able to cheat. I will pay you $50 if you are .3 seconds faster on the straight ones. That is enough money to get your axels changed.
If you fail, you will pay for my truck mods, which coinsidently will be $50. :smile:

I agree with you in that it’s all in the head. Mine tells me that bent axles are a detriment to speed and that Tracker easily has the power to make their axles straight.

I’m glad we agree on something, WesE. Only my head tells me this: thank Tracker for making new cheap stuff for us! There are many alternatives, you know. But talk to Buddy, maybe he’ll listen.

Two things before I go sleep:

First, you were 50% right on the RT 129s. One is doable, the other is not. But eventually they both will be done. According to Eric.
And second, I have lost my sleep over one question- how did Jani Soderhall happen to score a double victory at the last Swiss race on the crooked-axle standard Tracker RT trucks?

Now I can’t sleep, damn it!

Vlad.

Wes Eastridge
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Post by Wes Eastridge » Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:13 pm

<i>Vlad, Why are you trying to dissuade me from publicly complaining about something regarding the Tracker RT-series that everyone knows is bad? </i>

I’m not, WesE, I’ve been complaining about the Tracker truck quality for a while myself. Remember when you told me I should not have come on so strong on Buddy on ncdsa with regards to crappy hangers and screwy axels?
But I do want to share my perspective on the same issue.

<b>Yes, I said that to you. I consider my topic to follow the same courtesy that I was suggesting that you follow.</b?

<i>As it is now, it's impossible to keep your wheels solidly spinning on the RT-series trucks because of the axles not being perpendicular to the bearing seat of the hanger, due precisely to the bent axle. </i>

And what does it do to one’s time? Where is scientific proof?

<b>My times were slower on the trucks with bent axles. My times came back up when I switched back to my straight axles (stock axles on another model of trucks).</b>

<i>One has to run their wheels floppy on the axle in order for them to spin and that's not good for your bearings, axles, or anything else. </i>

Agree. But it’s the final result that what counts. The final result is what the timer shows. Show me the times.

<b>Alright, I’ll show you the time difference. I’ll make sure to point it out to you next time. I didn’t last time because I didn’t think you were going to have a problem with my request of Tracker to make trucks with straight axles.</b>

<i>The solution is not hard for Tracker to implement (just put in a straight axle). </i>

How do you know that? Heat=factor? Cost=factor?

<b>I know this because their other truck models (that I’ve seen) have straight axles.</b>

<i>I pay for the trucks, there's no reason they should be less than useable. </i>

I pay for the trucks too, spend over $700 on trucks, bushings and applicable hardware last year. The most expensive ones, with the machined offset axle didn’t have nearly as much traction as the RTs with the standard bent axles. It was a "subjective decision", based on my feeling of traction on a steep hill, but good enough to switch to cheaper trucks right away.

<b>I understand that you like the trucks. I might like them the same way too. My point was in response to your attacks on my topic.</b>

<i>And I don't know who you are referring to when you say "20-second cyber slalom times". </i>

Not you. Not anyone for that matter.

<i>We both know what my fastest times of the day are and that I was consistently slower when I tried the RT-series trucks. </i>

Everything else should be the same when you compare trucks. As in every single variable. I know my set-up limits up to 2 hundreds of a second. I can call mine an empirical approach and yours a pure speculation based on subjective data.

Here is a deal:
$100, you will get $100 from me if your times on RTs with 8 mm axels that I just got back from Geezer are .5 seconds faster on the standard Cyber Slalom course.
Take 10 runs on one set-up and ten runs on another, and we’ll compare your times. You will not know which RTs you’re riding when, so that you won’t be able to cheat. I will pay you $50 if you are .3 seconds faster on the straight ones. That is enough money to get your axels changed.

<b>I would rather spend it on 3 new trucks with straight axles.

And hear me now- From your first reply to me in this thread, it seems that you took my topic as some kind of personal attack on you. Let me state that it has nothing to do with you at all. You haven’t turned to a truck company into a religion, have you? I have not liked the quality of these trucks since I got them, nearly when they came out (before you got them). At first I thought the problem was primarily the bearing seat of the hangers. Only now (reletively) am I understanding the problem.</b>

If you fail, you will pay for my truck mods, which coinsidently will be $50.

<b>No. It was your decision to get that mod and has nothing to do with the topic. I see now that I should’ve spent more time replying to what you were saying before. Your many concerns for things were overshadowed by your original reply’s ridiculing nature.

Again, all I’m asking is for the RT-trucks to come with straight axles.</b>

Two things before I go sleep:

First, you were 50% right on the RT 129s. One is doable, the other is not. But eventually they both will be done. According to Eric.

<b>That has nothing to do with the topic.</b>

And second, I have lost my sleep over one question- how did Jani Soderhall happen to score a double victory at the last Swiss race on the crooked-axle standard Tracker RT trucks?

<b>I wasn’t there, so I don’t know. Probably the same way that John Gilmour beats you in races. It means nothing as to what time he could’ve posted and how long his bearings would last had he been using trucks with straight axles.

Vlad, seeing as you are reading more out of my topic than is really there, what do you say we each delete our replies that are to each other's posts? I want to get this problem taken care of and these extended posts that are unrelated to the topic are not helping the matter.


Wes</b>

Vlad Popov
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Post by Vlad Popov » Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:03 pm

I'm not going to delete anything. Better and/or stronger riders did/do/will beat me, not better equipment.
You can't get away with comparing apples and oranges, esp. on public forums which are visited by some researches who work with statistics every day.
Statistical test called ANOVA is a good way to analyze your runs and determine whether the bent axels matter or not. Given we keep all the variables but the axels constant…and not compare one set-up with another like you did.
I can bet $200 vs. $50 the bent axels have nothing to do with your Cyber Slalom or any other slalom times. Not on the hill, not on flat, not on uphill courses.

The problem with the X truck appears to be in its design. While the S is Ok, and so is Full for that matter. The Fulls and the Ss have more aluminum around the axles with more or less even distribution that 9might) help/s prevent bending during manufacturing (heating/cooling). This is just a hypothesis.
Unless the X is done the same way as the S, the problem will persist. There is no way to correct it other then change the hanger's design. I'm not sure Tracker will do it, and I don't really care. Most fast guys will have straight Trackers and high-performance precision trucks like Pee-Vees anyway.

No emotions attached to any of my equipment, except for the board that Jani signed- a $20 plank that I won't sell for anything. I'll be riding G-trucks soon. They are cheaper.

Buddy has 0 posts since October 03, 2002 on this forum. Whom are you talking to, WesE? Besides me.

Vlad.

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Post by Vlad Popov » Tue Mar 04, 2003 6:55 pm

Ok, since I promised I’d post, I’m posting.

Fact: Trackers with straight axles are over .3 seconds…..slower. Of course, this statement isn’t right. The floor was so bad, it was impossible to post anything remotely close to 8.5. So, on the one hand, Straight axels could do Eight Sevens- Eight Eights vs. 8.46 on the originals, but it was because of the dust.

I don’t think straight axels (the X truck) will improve SC times by more then .1 second under any conditions. The S truck axles are ok the way they’re made. On a hill it might be a different story, the traction becomes an issue on technical courses (how many of those have you seen lately?)

But! The subjective feeling was that I did have more traction. I mean, I did have more traction, it’s obvious. It felt like I was on different trucks. So, I would definitely prefer straight axels to whatever sausage is there. I mean, when I tested all my Tracker trucks, it looked like I’m holding a sausage in my hand and spinning it. Some of them are that bad! Like 1/8 of an inch (!) difference between the axles and they are pointing in different directions. So, one wheel is tilted inwards and has a “left” drag, while the other wheel is tilted outwards and have - I don’t’ know what drag- but it’s pretty bad.

But! Then I tried PVDs with a Turner Hybrid and all these differences in Trackers axles became yesterday’s news. PVDs have Traction, anything else seems like a toy in comparison.

Fact: I'm getting PeeVees.

Vlad.

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Post by Eric Wallgren » Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:21 am

Just to clarify things, I charged Vlad precisely nothing to swap 8mm axles into his so called Tracker team trucks. The advantage of straight axles is probably greater in hybrid and GS courses where lateral grip and predictable sliding are most important, since the point is to rigidly hold the wheels parallel while being able to leave the nuts loose. Improved grip, less drag. not a huge improvement, but it does ride better. So When Vlad refers to $50 truck improvements, he's not referring to any work I did.

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Post by Mike Ohm » Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:18 pm

Eric, call me. 703-930-1044

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