Machine Shop (Geezer-X)

3TC, XTC, TTC Skateboard Trucks, custom axles, hangers and baseplates

Moderator: Eric Wallgren

Adam Trahan
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Post by Adam Trahan » Mon May 12, 2003 3:51 pm

Image

Image

I have heard of the excellent machine services for the discriminating racer by Eric Wallgren. Some of our readers here have had work done on their trucks but little has been reported on here at www.slalomskateboarder.com until I received these pictures from Geezer-X.

My inquiry to him was on a metal Seismic offset and was told that he could make it happen.

I invite Eric to discuss and or promote his services within the community to further the sport of skateboard slalom racing.

Eric Wallgren
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Post by Eric Wallgren » Mon May 12, 2003 4:22 pm

I'm honored to have been elevated to the lofty position of moderator. Please address all questions regarding trucks, materials, technology, slalom, punk rock, and whatever all else you skateboard truck fetishists can come up with to yours truly, and I'll weigh in with the straight skinny. By way of introduction, I'm another of the many 40ish year old skaters who was into slalom in the 70s and early 80s who got back in a bit more than a year ago. I manage the automated laboratory instrumentation departmant of a biotech company in Gaithersburg MD (1/2 mile from the legendary DC outlaw race Park&Ride site)and also have a business, Monkeywrench Machine Works, which does custom trucks and carbon fiber race boards, as well a one-off parts for race motorcycles, cars and karts. I'm a mid pack open slalom racer and a terrible park skater, and I cherish every second I get to spend just rolling around on any skateboard when it's nice out. I'm a huge motorcycle/car/kart/bike/skate geek, and essentially, as my wife Abigail says, "if it goes, I'm into it". I'm also a drummer, having been in innumerable punk, metal, and uneasy listening bands in the DC area since about '81. Oh...I'm also more frequently known by the nickmname Geezer-X, an age related modification of my nickname among local skaters in the 70s "Captain X"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric Wallgren on 2003-05-12 10:26 ]</font>

Henry Julier
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Post by Henry Julier » Mon May 12, 2003 4:40 pm

Just can't resist putting in a plug for Monkeywrench Machine Works.

I had planned on getting an offset made, but opted for new axles instead. I sent my Trackers in and 2 weeks later they came back with new 8mm axles, refaced hangers with a built in step that does away with the need for speed rings, and new nuts that also don't need speed rings. Now, my expensive Oust bearings don't get squished and there is no bearing click due to bent axles tweaking the bearings around when I ride. I also had some Stimulator bushins cut down... very nice.

At the Gathering I had a chance to look at Geezer's composite decks and was very impressed. They ended up exploding later (shh! I didn't say that) but as Gareth put it, "I have a garage full of those." Geezer also hooked my friends the Campbells up with new bushings overnight... quality service right there folks.
what coast?

Jim Siener
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Post by Jim Siener » Mon May 12, 2003 5:39 pm

So what would Monkeywrench Machine Shop reccommend to upgrade ones trucks to gain more performance and speed? An offset or 8mm axles? I have Tracker RTX/S. Whats the cost and turnaround time on a set of trucks?

Steve Prue
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Post by Steve Prue » Tue May 13, 2003 3:58 am

damn jim, i am seeing you all over tonight....just saw your post on bomber. better see you up at K-Mart next season.

i will throw my praise for the punk rock mad scientist. my hybrid rocks with the 8mm axle upgrade. just sent another pair of 106's and a pair of 129's for geezer lovin'.

Bozi 36" GS board, MMW loved 129 RTX, 129 RTS offset, mixed avilas and PT ceramics... midnite brooklyn carve machine!!!...drool....

cheers!
steve

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: steve prue on 2003-05-13 10:03 ]</font>

Vlad Popov
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Post by Vlad Popov » Tue May 13, 2003 6:38 am

Mister X did my Tracker RT axles. I’m happy with the outcome. Even though I have PVDs, I still use my Trackers offten. One little cool thing on those Trackers- no speed washers are needed anymore.

Jim Siener
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Post by Jim Siener » Tue May 13, 2003 4:48 pm

SteveP, I will be cruising on my alpine board next year for sure. Can't wait, but until then its SLALOM, SLALOM, and more SLALOM!

Geezer X, whats the cost on an 8mm setup on a set of trucks?

Eric Wallgren
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Post by Eric Wallgren » Tue May 13, 2003 7:12 pm

http://www.monkeywrenchmachineworks.com

Will be up with pricing and info shortly. Other wise you can email me at

motomoron@yahoo.com

Thanks

Henry Julier
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Post by Henry Julier » Tue May 13, 2003 8:51 pm

Geezer, if you would like big jpeg versions of the MMW logo I made for the stickers I gave you, email me.

Paul Keleher
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Post by Paul Keleher » Wed May 14, 2003 10:53 am

Surely the logo should be MWM...not MMW

MonkeyWrenchMachine...

not

MonkeyMenchWachine.

Paul Keleher
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Post by Paul Keleher » Wed May 14, 2003 10:55 am

unless of course Monkey wrench is one word!!

Doh!

just ignore me, i'ma having a Homer moment!

John Gilmour
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Post by John Gilmour » Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:07 am

I highly reccomend Eric's work. I just got a set of trucks back from him and I am amazed at the accuracy of the craftsmanship as well as the attention to detail. The wheels spin much longer than before.

Take a look at the custom latheing he does to the nuts on the trucks to help insure true flatness. http://www.monkeywrenchmachineworks.com/120axles.html

I used to have my trucks custom pinned and new axles precision lathed for them....I paid about $230 to have this done By Design products and instruments in Boston to my Magnesium Fulltracks in 1989 dollars. Eric only charges $50 for the same service as well as machining true faces on the nuts and hangers AND he stands behind his work.

I'm sure Eric has good ideas up his sleeves for new conversions. Racing programs owe their lifeblood to machine shops like Eric's.

So get out those trucks and have him put a better axle on it to true up your ride.

It can only make you faster.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-06-17 22:08 ]</font>

Seth Levy
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Post by Seth Levy » Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:51 pm

Can mmw do these modifications to acs 500 trucks? What about seismics?

Glenn S
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Post by Glenn S » Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:05 am

I've had Eric Wallgren do about 4 RTX 8mm axle conversions for me and he did a couple of offsets as well. His work is well done and super solid. He also gets things back to you quickly.

He for sure could do an 8mm axle job on the ACS trucks if he can press out the old axle.

Is there a reason that you need a new axle on those trucks, is the old one bent?

Seth Levy
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Post by Seth Levy » Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:34 am

My acs trucks are very used and they are very rusted and junk. I think one of them is a little bent as well. Also, i would want to make one of them offset.

Nick Krest
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Post by Nick Krest » Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:51 pm

Monkeywrench has done several sets of trucks for me. Their work is impeccable. Once you go 8mm, you'll never settle for a stock bent 5/16" axle again.

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Post by Glenn S » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:04 am

Hey Eric,
Do you do any all inclusive deals where you cut hanger width, install 8mm axle, install larger kingpin, and possibly even shape some custom bushings?

What are your prices for an all inclusive truck upgrade?
Thanks,
Glenn

Seth Levy
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Post by Seth Levy » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:22 am

Glenn S wrote:Hey Eric,
Do you do any all inclusive deals where you cut hanger width, install 8mm axle, install larger kingpin, and possibly even shape some custom bushings?

What are your prices for an all inclusive truck upgrade?
Thanks,
Glenn
and a deck?

Seth Levy
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Post by Seth Levy » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:44 am

GX- can this be done to trucks that are wide? Like 9'? I am thinking about fixing all of my screwed up trucks. I live in potomac. email me.

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Post by Nick Krest » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:44 am

I didn't know that 9' wide trucks existed. But Señor X has fixed two sets of Randal 180's for me, and I believe those have 10" axles.

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Post by Seth Levy » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:49 am

ah thanks. my mistake. a nine foot truck. better have some pretty large feet....

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:33 am

I see that when trucks are modified with 8mm axles, one of the things that is done is that the hanger is modified to have a boss that eliminates the need for speed rings. Have you machinists thought about this from a bearing engineering standpoint?

My gut feeling is that the speed washers, being somewhat forgiving, may actually be better as there is less chance the bearings will be given too much preload when tightening the nut down. (I guess the same issue exists with the biltin bearings and their hard built in spacers and washers).

Any thoughts?

-Slim

Seth Levy
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Post by Seth Levy » Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:29 am

well, it looks like i have to get geezer to do some work for me! i was tinkering a little w/my acs 500 trucks and they slipped! i took the axel out of one of them.
@geezer x- email me with info on how to get my trucks to you. i live close by so i dont want to have to ship them if i dont have to.

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Post by Jack Quarantillo » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:06 am

seth,
click on the link above, and scroll down, geezer-x's phone # is at the bottom of his homepage.

Q

Eric Wallgren
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Hey!!

Post by Eric Wallgren » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:48 pm

I haven't been checking in so very often, seeing as how if I'm not at work or consulting, I'm standing in front of a lathe making axles. Seth, feel free to call, the # is on the website. In the mean time I'll leave you with this...
Image
Image
Image

These are the newest MMW Team trucks. 8mm 4140 CrMo axles, machined in bearing seats, longer kingpins, reshaped pivots and bushing seats, custom NOS Tracker bushings, and custom media blasted finish.

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:56 am

No comments about my question regarding the bearing seats/bosses? See post above...

thanks,

Rich

Glenn S
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Post by Glenn S » Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:02 am

Rich,
I've had Eric do about 5 Tracker hangers for me. I have found no problem at all with his system. With the 8mm axle and the way he machines both the hanger and also the nut. Works like a charm. And I'm not messing with speed-rings. I like it.

What I think is Key with this system is the straight 8mm axles. My Pleasure Tool sealed Abec3's fit perfectly on the GeezerX axles. As good as on the much more expensive PVDs that I've bought.

====================
Anyone know what that somewhat-purple looking top bushing is in the picture above of Eric's reworked Trackers?
Last edited by Glenn S on Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Eric Wallgren
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Bearing preload

Post by Eric Wallgren » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:36 pm

Speedrings or no, it's virtually impossible to preload your skateboard bearings. There should be, in order, on your axle, assuming you're not using Abec11 Biltin bearings:

speedring/bearing/spacer=distance between bearing seats in your wheels+a couple thousandths of an inch/bearing/speedring/nut.

If you're on my trucks you can leave the speedrings out. If you're on Biltins you need nothing. The "speedrings" and spacers are "Biltin" to the bearing. I think they're the best thing ever.

The only way to get excessive preload would be to omit the spacers, or apply so much pressure by over torquing the wheels nuts that you collapsed the spacer.

The idea behind true 8mm axles is that the wheel nuts are simply a retainer. The are ****just**** snugged down, and the bearing fit on the axle is so close that there is virtually no axial play, and the axle is so straight, that the contact patches of your wheels are perfectly parallel, which minimizes drag, and maximizes possible lateral grip. If you ride two identical setups, one with perfect axles, and one with typically misaligned factory axles, the difference on a real slalom course is remarkable.
factor in longer kingpins and good bushings, and it's a night and day improvement.

Rich Stephens
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Re: Bearing preload

Post by Rich Stephens » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:28 am

Eric Wallgren wrote:Speedrings or no, it's virtually impossible to preload your skateboard bearings.
Eric, I know a guy who is a bearing engineer, and not only does his bearing company (California Bearing) provide bearings to NASA and private industry, but he also orders a specific NMB bearing to market as a skate bearing since he himself is a skater. His opinion on the speedring and preload issues is this:

=====
"It use to be and still is general skate theory to use spacers and tighen up your wheels real snug. The spacer will force the ball track to ride against raceway shoulder (duplexing/Preloading)adding stability and elliminating the "loose Play" however, adds friction. From an Engineering and skaters point of view, I think for street skating, the pounding, jumping off rails, etc., I would use spacers with the nut snug to elliminate the "Loose Play"... The bearings will "share the load" in the wheel giving the bearing/wheel more strength and stabilty, will handle more of a beating but you will give up speed, quickness and the bearings will wear faster.
....But for me, (Im strickly a Vert/Pool skater) and other Vert skaters I recommend a different setup. For Vert the bearing application is different than street skating. You want stability and strength when your street skating, but VERT, halfpipes, pools, etc. you want speed and quickness. Rather than running the bearings as a "Duplexed Preloaded Set" mentioned above, you want the bearings to run as independant high speed radial bearings with Low starting and running torque. Dont use the Spacers and only tighten the wheel bolt, lightly snug, to eliminate most of the slop. Sometimes if too loose it seams like you dont need bearings but when you stand on it and add 120 or more pounds of load and get traveling in one or more directions, the bearings will rotate and the inner ring will not spin on the axle, but you dont want alot of "loose play' or "slop" either. Lightly snug !!! By not tightning the the nut too tight, the bearings will have less preload and will run like a "high speed radial" bearing."
===

I guess the question is whether for slalom the stability is more important or if speed is. If the use of 8mm axles takes away the typical axle slop anyway, then perhaps there is no reason to run the spacers and washers at all since you'd get speed that way (and not need the stability).
The only way to get excessive preload would be to omit the spacers, or apply so much pressure by over torquing the wheels nuts that you collapsed the spacer.
Here's what Ron of California Bearings says on preload:
==
"A 608 has about a 7-9 pound max preload limit. 608's in Precision Duplex Pair applications like pairs I supply to NASA for the cameras on the outside of the space station, have just a 4-5 lb Preload. Anymore than that the bearings will fail to turn and wear extremly fast. Tighten that nut down real hard and you could add 20-30 lbs of preload !!! Bottomline......I think spacers preload the bearings too much for VERT skaters but is good for the Street Skaters where speed and quickness isnt as much of an issue as stability and strenghth."
==

Me again. I'm totally convinced that the 8mm axles are the way to go, I'm just confused on running spacers and rings or not. Any further comments?

BTW, if you guys haven't tried them, you might want to try the NMB bearings from California Bearing (or you can get them from skatelab). They test every bearing they can get their hands on vs. the NMB - so that if they find something better they can source that one instead. So far, the NMB is tops. Here is a review of the Biltins, for example:

"I just checked out these Biltin Bearings. Not bad for inexpensive Chinese. There are no inner ring steps, No labryinth Seal or inner ring design. By the way the so-called ABEC 7 bearing measured out to ABEC 3 tolerances in my lab. As far as I can tell, the ABEC 3 , 5 and 7 sold by Biltins are the EXACT same bearing. Maybe they dont even know it and their bearing supplier is just slipping ABEC 3's past them Certifying to ABEC 7. These Biltins ARE NOT ABEC 7. Im sorry , its true. Not a bad concept to manufacture the bearings with extended inner rings to eliminate the spacer and washers. However, This has nothing to do with how "fast" or smooth the bearings are. I tested them against the NMB SuperPrecision Bearing and the starting and running torque values were double!! on the Biltin bearings versus the NMB Bearing. That means the biltin bearings take more energy to get up to speed and stay at top speed. The NMB Bearing really blew away the Biltins on the Running Torque test. That means the Biltins slow down faster while the NMB SPS Bearing holds its speed with little or no effort. I wont even get into the Smoothness test which the NMB bearing obviously has the lowest values of any 608 Ive Tested and Inspected."

I think they sell the NMB skate bearing direct for $23, retail is like $30 or something at Skatelab and other shops. And for the record, I have no connection to those guys other than being a satisfied customer. Their webpage on that NMB bearing is http://www.californiabearing.com/skate.htm

-Slim

Wes Eastridge
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Post by Wes Eastridge » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:23 am

It makes sense that a guy who markets bearings would say that spacers are a detriment to bearing performance. He is blowing smoke. Bearings not supported by the proper spacer take on at least twice the load as bearings that are set up properly (setup with the proper spacer). Because of that, one can extrapolate that a wheel without the proper bearing spacer will not be as fast as the same wheel that has been properly setup. It’s as true for riding vert as anything else. Any variation of skateboard turn, including kickturns and grinds, will put side-loads on bearings. No amount of industry mumbo-jumbo will make me reconsider. The advantage of using the proper spacer has been known to me for like 15 years prior to my slalom riding.

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:00 am

Can you explain "why", perhaps with some technical language to support your claims? It would be helpful. Thanks.

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Post by Glenn S » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:12 am

LOL!!! Rich, that was a classic response. You've been studying TK!

Terry Kirby
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Post by Terry Kirby » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:27 am

Glen, please, don't insult me...

Slim, I believe Wess of Virginia. No one, and I mean no one, wrenches more than him. He also skates all disiplines including ramp, vert, pools, fences, ditchs, Slalom and Banked Slalom. He does them all well. He is also very thrifty and researchs every bit of equipment in order to get maximum value. Now I'm sure this Ron of California is a smart guy. But I know Wes of Virginia personally and he is smart AND skates a whole lot. That said, I believe wes has answered your "why" question in his previous post .

"Bearings not supported by the proper spacer take on at least twice the load as bearings that are set up properly (setup with the proper spacer). Because of that, one can extrapolate that a wheel without the proper bearing spacer will not be as fast as the same wheel that has been properly setup. It’s as true for riding vert as anything else. Any variation of skateboard turn, including kickturns and grinds, will put side-loads on bearings. No amount of industry mumbo-jumbo will make me reconsider. "

HE also used the word "extrapolate" which in my book qualifies as Technical language. TK

Troy, what might your thoughts on the subject be?

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:41 am

I think what I was asking for was something to back up this claim:
Bearings not supported by the proper spacer take on at least twice the load as bearings that are set up properly
I see you say "load" not "pre-load". So, you are pre-loading the bearings by use of spacers and washers (or bosses) and then claim a wheel with no pre-load, takes on "at least twice the load".

I'm not an engineer. I'm just trying to make sense of conflicting advice.

Terry Kirby
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Post by Terry Kirby » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:51 am

I see, I think what wes means is when the two bearings dont have a spacer and ring to keep them straight they will,durning a hard turn(side load) tilt and get all crooked inside the relativly soft plastic Hub causing minute friction. Add a spacer and rings and proper nut tension and the whole mess stays more alligned , especially during side pressure like you get during a hard turn, thus resulting in less friction and more speed. How he got the "twice as much " part is anyones guess.

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Post by Wes Eastridge » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:12 am

Rich Stephens wrote:Can you explain "why", perhaps with some technical language to support your claims? It would be helpful. Thanks.
"Riding vert" involves side-forces being put on the skateboard due to abrupt changes of direction. These accelerations imput the same side-loads on 608 bearings that "street riding" does.

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:14 am

I guess I could wait for Wes to confirm but if what he is saying is as you have described, I don't see much difference. Bearings with spacers (etc.) attempt to hold the bearings in one place on the axle, but as the wheel flexes during a turn, side (or angular) loads will still be exerted on the bearings relative to how the wheel is spinning. I.e. the bearings may be "straight" for the axle, but not straight for the path the wheel itself is trying to turn and the urethane will be pushing on the bearings.

The spacers and speed rings also do not do anything to increase the grip of the inside of the wheel to the surface of the bearing. All they are doing is holding the inner bearing race more stationary: the rest of the bearing still moves just as much and is subject to the same loads overall. No?

Am I missing something? If the above is correct, no reduction of loading during turning is accomplished by running spacers and tight nuts, so all you are left with is the loss of straight line speed from pre-loading the bearings.

-Slim

Pat Chewning
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It depends on how long the spacer is.

Post by Pat Chewning » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:34 am

Try this experiment: Take your speed rings, bearings, and spacers. Place them on a 5/16" bolt (or 8mm bolt) tighten with a nut as tight as you can. Spin the bearings. Compare the spin when the nut is loose. I'll bet there is no difference. That's because all of the "Pre loading" is carried by the inner races of the bearings, and the spacer. There is no axial load that is loaded against the balls and the outer races. The same will happen in your wheels AS LONG AS THE SPACER IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT LENGTH, OR SLIGHTLY LONGER THAN THE EXACT RIGHT LENGTH.

Try this series of experiments:

1) Normal wheel / bearing / spacer setup ; very tight nut.
2) Normal wheel / bearing/ spacer with a speed ring inside the wheel (Simulates a long spacer). very tight nut.
3) Normal wheel / bearing / spacer that has been sanded/filed down. very tight nut.

The "speed" of the wheel will be 2 > 1 > 3 (Setup 2 fastest)
The "stability" of the wheel to resist axial motion will be 3 > 1 > 2 (Setup 3 most stable).

Until skateboard wheels are made with a "hub nut" that can exert an axial force on the outside face of the outer race of the bearing, we are indeed only relying on one of our 2 bearings per wheel to carry the entire axial loads when turning. Perhaps this is where someone got the "2X" the force notion? (Comparing the standard skateboard wheel against some other, more ideal design?)

-- Pat

Rich Stephens
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Post by Rich Stephens » Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:17 pm

A good experiment to visualize things except it ignores the existence of the urethane wheel around the bearings and the forces acting on the bearings via their outer surface thanks to the wheel moving/flexing.

For what it is worth, here is what the bearing engineer sent me:

===
"First off, Spacers dont support bearings, they preload the inner ring and make the bearings work as a "pair" and will help share the load and will eliminate the axial play (end play)

2nd, with that said, the bearings will still work as a Pair and share the load because by being pressed in the wheel and locking the outer rings, but not to the degree it does when you preload the inner rings. The bearings will take on more load without the spacers but not double. Say he's right and it is double. My Skate Bearings anyway have a 912 lb radial load rating and a 456 lb axial load, EACH BEARING. Even of all your weight and momentum is on one bearing only it would still handle it no problem. The fact that the bearing will take on more load without the spacer is true but not a factor in the speed. The fact that the balls are "pre-loaded" up against the raceway when using spacers will slow you down more that adding a little load to the bearing. When you are kickturning add a few pounds load. No big deal. Bearings are designed to carry heavy loads.
===

Further comments, corrections, explanations anyone?

-Slim

Pat Chewning
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Bearings share axial loads? I don't think so.

Post by Pat Chewning » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:27 am

2nd, with that said, the bearings will still work as a Pair and share the load because by being pressed in the wheel and locking the outer rings,
Sorry, I just can't see how the slight press fit of the bearing into the wheel can be made to share the axial load of the wheel across the 2 bearings. It would seem to me that if I can press the bearing out of the wheel with my finger, then the maximum axial load possible in that direction for that bearing is very small indeed.

When I'm exerting an axial load on the wheel towards the truck, only the bearing on the inside of the wheel can exert much force against the wheel (acting against the flange in the hub). The other bearing is being pushed OUT of the wheel, and has no flange to act against. So it cannot carry a load. This was the intent of the "experiments" described, to show how that works (maybe it wasn't described too well).

So I guess this engineer disagrees with the other engineer.

How about this for an experiment: Would your engineer be willing to race a slalom course using wheels where the hubs have had either inside flange removed?

-- Pat

Terry Kirby
Team RoeRacing
Team RoeRacing
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Location: Hampton, NH USA

Post by Terry Kirby » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:30 am

Every single one of the FCR Champions this year used spacers and speed rings.

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Post by Adam Trahan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:37 pm

Cool.

TK is the surgeon on this one, straight to the bone quickly.
adam trahan wrote:In all of my years as a skateboarder, I thought that it took my "conditioning" a race bearing to get them like I want them to spin. I've a set of Sims Racing Bearings that I have been taking care of since day one. They get the full surgical instrument sonic cleaning, then conditioning with dental drill drive lubrication (colloidal teflon) and then brushed out after each skate.

But the older I get, the less time I have...

So I bought a few sets of Pleasure Tools Bearings (non ceramic, sealed) because they are ABEC 7 and inexpensive. Nice bearings but they have a break in period and it just takes them a while to get to a point to where they spin nicely. I use them for nearly all my riding and I do like them...

On a chance, I bought some Oust MOC 7 and put them in my Turner wheels, cranked them down and WHAM! Spin forever right out of the box. Riding them is a gas, you just forget about bearings, no worries, they just go fast.

Try this test.

Take a comparable bearing and tighten down on a truck (speed washers or what ever you use) and spin, time it.

Take a OUST Moc 7, same set up and do the same...

This is just a free spin test. Once your board is all set, you can feel the difference in the ride (maybe it is simply psychological)

:grin:
I've since had ceramic bearings and other bearings as well. You have to make sure that the wheels have the correct sized spacer and speed rings/nut/hanger face that do not rub or create friction along the length of the axle. THEN you can use OUST to combat any other descrepancy that you introduce.

OUSTS are just outstanding bearings. Don't knock them until you have tried them and I have used NMB's over the years, good bearing, nothing like MOC 7 or 9 OUST. I've had and have all sorts of great bearings, PT's, Bones, SIMS GOLD SHIELDS, NMB's, Hoovers, one offs just about every 608 that would work, I've traded secrets over the years with John Gilmour on dentist drill drive conditioning lubricating techniques and it is odd that we came to this from two different avenues...

Lot's can be overcome with GZ-X machine werks 8mm axles with proper facing on the hanger/nut, proper spacing and OUST.

That's my story, I'm sticking to it.

Rich Stephens
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

Post by Rich Stephens » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:33 pm

Great review! I'll have the Oust tested/measured against the skate-specific NMB super precision and report the result.

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Post by Adam Trahan » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:03 pm

Please do consult with your friend. I would venture a guess that he has already done the test with OUST and has chosen not to compare NMB with OUST. I will be quite surprised to see a NMB engineer say that his product is inferior to another bearing.

TK said it best, it's not the board, it's the rider. Given that, I will try to find the best bearing for me, I need all the advantages that I can gather.

Anyway, I am willing to make this statement right now.
By a significant percentage, it is my opinion that OUST will have less rolling resistance in any load bearing axis orientation in a comparison test with any other skateboard bearing manufacturer.
This is why they work.

Do the test yourself.

Take ANY bearing with any spacer or no spacer configuration and CRANK down the axle nut and spin, time it. Now take the same configuration and replace the bearings with MOC 7 or 9 and do the same thing. Use a torque wrench or just be as fair as you can, it probably won't matter anyway. Doesn't matter which one goes first, just do the test and do it as fair as you can.

OUST will take the abuse of out of axis loading and still spin longer. This is what happens in a turn in a bearing, side loads. The simple static test will simulate this.

Just try it yourself.

This simple test along with my hours of conditioning precision bearings over the years and THE RIDE is what has convinced me. I bet you will end up replacing your RACE bearings with OUST if you choose to believe in your own simple test.

The truth does not hurt, it's a good thing.

YOU decide what the truth is regarding your choice in bearings, YOU have to ride them.

OUST: Straight out of the box FASTEST, they are durable as well.

This is my personal opinion, nothing more.

Rich Stephens
Posts: 120
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

Post by Rich Stephens » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:50 am

I'll report what he finds. I've heard a lot of good things about Oust.

FWIW, the free spin timing test is not very accurate for comparing bearings. What matters is how the bearings work when they have our body weight on them. I'll report on the methodology used to test them in the lab when I find that out.

-Slim

Paul Howard
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:15 pm
Location: Corvallis, Oregon. USA

Modified Trucks

Post by Paul Howard » Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:07 pm

Hey Geez, I got my trucks back, I've only ridden one set, but I'm impressed, nice work, really nice. I'll probably send you some more. Thanks Lots - Paul Howard
I just dig slalom!

Dave Gale
Dave Gale
Dave Gale
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Location: West Virginny

"UP" grades.. tho derogatory to gravity sports

Post by Dave Gale » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:44 pm

I had Eric cut down and off-set a Randal for me a few years back..It turned out to be a wickedly turny truck. I have recently sent off a box of RTX/TTC for him to put his magic to! True 8mm axles make the difference that nothing else can!! Wes E hit it on the mark re: loads Do yourself a favor,and make Geezer X work overtime.
ENJOY!! (while you can)

Adam Trahan
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:00 am

Post by Adam Trahan » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:26 am

Rich Stephens wrote:I'll report what he finds. I've heard a lot of good things about Oust.

FWIW, the free spin timing test is not very accurate for comparing bearings. What matters is how the bearings work when they have our body weight on them. I'll report on the methodology used to test them in the lab when I find that out.

-Slim
Rich, curious about the OUST test/comparison? Any word yet?

Thanks.

Rich Stephens
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

Post by Rich Stephens » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:22 am

I'll check to see if he has tested Oust. So far all I've heard is that he looked at them (the photos?) and said the design is the right idea but he feels they are way overpriced and most likely are from China (since if they weren't Oust would surely trumpet that fact).

BTW, he's not an NMB employee. He used to work for a bearing company that supplied many of the skate bearings you see on the market. He tells stories of big shipments of Chinese bearings coming to that company for like $0.15 per. They'd put the shields on for the different "cool" brands (Speed Demon, Pig Abec 5, Black Beauties, etc.). The skate bearing "companies" would buy them for $.35 a bearing. Kids would then be tricked into buying them as something they were not in skateshops for like $20 a set.

Anyway, these days he doesn't participate in those shinanigans and has his own company called California Bearing (http://www.californiabearing.com/). It is not a skateboard bearing company and I'm sure he sells more bearings in an hour to the government than he sells to skateboarders in a year. He simply chose NMB to produce bearings for skateboarding to his specs. He then washes them all in his certified clean room and relubes with his own lube. He says good things about Bones Swiss, (which are apparently still made by WIB in switzerland even though the company was sold to NSK and then to the Canadian company Roto Precision), and Ninja bearings that are made by a quality bearing manufacturer in Japan. So I don't doubt he will praise Oust if they perform well in the measurements and tests he performs

FWIW, recent measurement of Biltin showed that the Abec 7 model measure out to the same as the Abec 3 Biltins. Similarly, the Pleasure Tools Abec 7 has tolerances in the 3 range as well. He says this is common with the Chinese bearings and that Chris and Ed may not even know that their suppliers are burning them. But that's what they get for dealing with the Chinese industry I guess.

-Rich

Eric Wallgren
Geezer-X
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Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:00 am

Post by Eric Wallgren » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:46 pm

I made the assumption (Samuel Jackson in Pulp Fiction.. "When you assume, you make ass out of You, and Umption") That we were discussing skateboard wheels. Typically, the space between the bearing seats is about .390" give or take, and most bearing spacers are about .400". Assuming (again) that a 608 bearing is 7mm wide, both the inner and outer races, that means that the bearing, in a static condition, has ZERO preload. No matter how loose or tight the axle nuts are. I design and fabricate automated laboratory instrumentation, some of which needs to be really, really precise and repeatable, and I have yet to resort to preloading ball bearings to mitigate runout. Now, if we were to discuss the wheel bearings on my Austin Healey, the spindle bearings on my ancient lathe, or the headset, bottom bracket, and hub bearings of my many old and interesting bicycles, we could add preload to the list of topics. If you were clever, you'd lock your bearings in to you wheel hubs, so that while turning, you divided the lateral load equally between the inner and outer bearings, rather than just loading the bearings on the inside of the turn, the way our lame, underdeveloped skateboards work today. The other advantage of Biltins, is that the "spacer", being integrated with the bearing's inner race, assures nice coplaner alignment between the axis of the races when you honk down on the nuts real good.

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