ISSA-Approved Timing Systems -- help needed

Timing System

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Pat Chewning
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ISSA-Approved Timing Systems -- help needed

Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:19 pm

It looks very likely that the ISSA racing rules will require the use of ISSA-approved timing systems. (This is being voted on right now).

If this comes to pass, the ISSA will need to create a list of approved timing systems.

I'm wondering who might want to lead this effort to create criteria for selection, a method for "nominating" systems to be added to the list, a method for "verifying" that the system meets the criteria, and a method for maintaining a list from year to year.

Personally, I do not like the idea of having such a requirement, but the vote is going this way, so we will need a process for generating this list in a manner that is fair and objective.

Volunteers and suggestions are welcome.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:37 am

Let those who are in favor for such a list step up and take care of it... ;-)

Hello! Anyone out there? I don't think so...

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:25 am

I guess its not about finding hundreds of systems that should be approved but rather to setup some rules that needs to be fulfilled by such a system. Then anyone who feels like getting their system approved would need to clarify that it fulfills these criterias.

Perhaps there should be two different levels one for grassroots and one for main/major races.

I'm not sure what's really part of a "timing-system". I get the feeling it's not always about measuring times but more about entering the times into a spreadsheet, displaying them to the audience, getting results out to the racers and not mixing it all up that is the problem not really making sure the measuring of elapsed time from start to finish.

Does Daniel who manufactures TrackMate need to make sure that the race organizer brings a printer to the race?

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Post by Greg Ambler » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:12 pm

I would have to agree wit Marcus. A basic criteria met and then approved.
I have to admit, my timer (BTS) is great for sessions and training and is faultless to its capabilities.
But it worries me that you cant run a world class event unless you have an approved timer.
This doesnt even happen in WC athletics. The timers used are basically checked for performance and faults before an event.

So that would be back to the basic criteria. Maybe a test form that can be checked off by an allocated/official/verified person. But i can see it causing some problems.
BTS

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:37 am

This was only for timers themselves if I understand correctly.

But I agree the handling of times AND cones is probably more important than if a timer is correct to the thousand of a second. Can't remember seeing this in the rules voting. But maybe it's not rules but rather guidelines we need as you say. Need a new topic for this then...

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:47 pm

I can just compare a timingsystem to our ALGE in running them at the same time.

I don't know if it helps anything. I will compare the trackmate the next day's with the ALGE System.

I think that the most important thing is to use a hardware clock instead of a software clock.

We know that there are just a few Systems used at Main/Major races: (software timers not counted)

- ALGE
- Trackmate
- are there more ?

/J-Rad

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:41 pm

Sorted by most often used:

- Trackmate
- Chronocone
- ALGE
- Latvian system

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Post by Pat Chewning » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:51 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:Sorted by most often used:

- Trackmate
- Chronocone
- ALGE
- Latvian system
I don't know what system the Brazillians and Australians use (perhaps the BTS timer?)

I know that Michael Stride also has a system he will be using in races in England -- I believe it will display the differential time in H2H competition, not the actual time.

The ISSA rules call for a timing system that:
A) Has a common-start.
B) Has a 4-tone countdown
C) Displays the time from the START (4th) tone to the finish, as well as the "early start" amount.
D) Can be triggered when the racer starts (start ramp) and when the racer finishes (finish line)
E) Is on the "approved list" of timers (new rule added as a result of member voting)

I know that the Trackmate and Chronocone meet these requirements, I'm unsure about the others.

The real question is how we treat rule E above (approved timing systems). Do we want to add additional PERFORMANCE requirements such as:
1) Accuracy?
2) Precision?
3) Repeatability?
4) Reliability?
5) Automated interface to scoresheet?

And/OR do we want to add additional IMPLEMENTATION requirements such as:
1) Tape switch vs optical switch vs ???
2) SW vs HW timer?
3) .... other?

And then what is the resulting list of systems that meet ALL of the requirements?
A) Prohibiting SW timers means no Chronocone.
B) Demanding automated interface to scoresheet implies the use of Trackmate (work effort required), or Chronocone (existing function)
C) Being too demanding with requirements will be a huge burden on race organizers. It will likely result in nearly EVERY race containing a deviation from the rules in regards to use of timing systems.

--- Is this something that is urgent for 2008 races, or can it be worked and improved incrementally over the years until we have the ideal timing system defined and available for races?

These are the kinds of questions that need to be addressed by whomever volunteers to create the "approved list" of timers for ISSA events.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:00 pm

Here's a new attempt at making a list of commonly and sometimes used timers for slalom racing.

- Trackmate
- Chronocone
- ALGE
- Latvian system
- BTS timer
- R U Ready system (Stride only?)
- EttSexEtt timer (mostly for practice I think)

/Jani

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:21 pm

I think this might be my topic, I'm really interested in getting the right system for our sport. But Pat may be afraid of giving it to me given that I regularly criticize the use of PC based timers. Also I don't have any openings as to how to accurately test the systems. But if someone can advice, we could possibly find a solution where we can pay for it. Or launch a student on it. Couldn't that make a suitable project in the right kind of class.

I should also mention that I would be slightly partial too as I have attempted the development of a new kind of timer. It's not ready yet and I didn't do it myself. I only financed it. ie threw money into a dark hole having one of my engineers work on it for much too long. It's pretty much working now, but needs some software to be written to control the hardware. It may still become reality but don't hold you breath. It's been in the works for about two years now, or is it three?

/Jani

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:37 pm

There's also the Equine infrared system.

Also, let's be careful about the difference between the requirements for dual-lane head to head racing and single lane racing.
Image

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A proposed way to approach timer requirements for "appr

Post by Pat Chewning » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:43 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:I think this might be my topic, I'm really interested in getting the right system for our sport. But Pat may be afraid of giving it to me given that I regularly criticize the use of PC based timers. Also I don't have any openings as to how to accurately test the systems. But if someone can advice, we could possibly find a solution where we can pay for it. Or launch a student on it. Couldn't that make a suitable project in the right kind of class.

I should also mention that I would be slightly partial too as I have attempted the development of a new kind of timer. It's not ready yet and I didn't do it myself. I only financed it. ie threw money into a dark hole having one of my engineers work on it for much too long. It's pretty much working now, but needs some software to be written to control the hardware. It may still become reality but don't hold you breath. It's been in the works for about two years now, or is it three?

/Jani

Jani,

I have no problem if you want to take this on as a task.

I do recommend that we focus on PERFORMANCE and REQUIREMENTS, rather than implementation details.

For example, I would be open to determining the REQUIREMENT that the system be accurate within 0.01 seconds over a 20-second time interval. (As an example of what is required in order to be "good enough" for slalom skateboard racing. Just an example -- the actual number can be different.) What accuracy/precision/repeatability is actually required to be "good enough" for skateboard racing? I don't know. I can help make some guesses, though.

Here's how I came up with .01 second accuracy requirement:
Skateboard slalom about 20MPH
20MPH is about 30 feet per second.
30 feet per second is about 300 inches per second
A wheel is about 3 inches diameter.
A wheel travels about one diameter in 0.01 second.
We do not need to time the race more accurately than 1 wheel diameter.

I would then be OK to a test or a process that puts each proposed system through the same input to determine if they PERFORM to the REQUIREMENT.

If a system is shown to perform to the requirements, we should not care if it is a HW timer using a crystal oscillator, a SW-based timer, or an hourglass with sand running through it.

If this is the way the requirements are set up and the testing .... and we then find out that a system (e.g. Chronocone) does not meet these requirements, and there are other systems available that do meet the requirements, then we have a conclusion.....

============================

Of course, this only covers the requirement that the time displayed is "close enough" to the "actual" time of the event.

There are other requirements also:
Common start.
Tones.
Display of the "early start interval" (aka "reaction time")

Then there are practical things that could be considered
Cost
Availability
Support/Service
Etc.

And there are other performance items which could be considered
Ability to upload times into a scoresheet.
Storing of times for later retreival and verification.
Etc.

And again, there would have to be an appropriate balance between defining a "perfect" timing system vs the timing systems currently available in the hands of contest organizers.

================================

One extreme: We completely specify the "perfect" system and place that as the requirement. The "approved system" list is either empty, or contains one system that is hard to obtain and costly.

Another extreme: We place every system ever used for slalom skateboarding on the list of "approved" systems until we have good hard evidence that it is unsuitable.

What to do when a contest organizer submits a sanction application with a proposal to use a new system that is not on the "approved" list?

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Post by Michael Stride » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:58 pm

I am currently making a 'tone' box.

put simply you can configure the time beween 'beeps' so that you can either create a 'random' gap, or setit to give a consistent gap.

Basically this uses a circuit that light 10 leds at 1 second intervals.

This will provide a 'common start' on the final beep.

I also have a false start indicator circuit. (Essentialy the same as the dual indicator.)

Speaker output is either via a small Amp to speakers on the ramps and PA system, or simply to large piezo electric buzzers as used on lorries.

If you search 'Bill Bowdens' circuits on google you'll see some of the circuits Im using.

The idea is to create a schematic so that any other sytem can be used with this box, and that others with an interest in electronics can make one. This is the core of the circuit, but with ouputs on mmore than just the last LED:
ImageBut it also incorporates a buzzer quiz circuit to create the false start indicator, the tone generator circuit to create the beep, and the amplifier to make it ear piercing. I also have added a really annoying siren as a false start noise...that will stop you in your tracks!

Currently the front panel is being drilled for the LEDS and switches.....but works in bits.

I cant wait to show it off!!!!!

It wont show the ACTUAL time of a false start, only the lane which triggered a false start first.

With a random start window it really cust down on false starts, but I can see why some people may prefer the more traditional standard start gaps....but I'll hopefully try the system in anger at Cadwell and see how racers like it. I think its worth trying a random window.

(And Ive created a random generator too......








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Dazed and confused.

Post by Spike Taylor » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:37 pm

Just checking, cos I've benn reading the ISSA rule stuff, but if this is a points race don't you have to do the ISSA beep thing for it to be official and keep to all the rules that just got voted on? I just want to know whats going to happen or will you be using your new random start Micheal?
We had a similar problem at our Uni with Athletics and they took away the status of the race because we did our own thing instead of the Associations rules.
FUN-is the bottom line!

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Post by Michael Stride » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:40 pm

Nope Spike.

The rules arnt implemented. yet.

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Post by Michael Stride » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:02 pm

As I read it the nature of a start hasnt been fixed or decided. In any case I do not care that a sytem HAS to be computer driven as experiance tells me they are just as susceptable to computor errors. For Cadwell we will have displays showing elapsed time. at the top of the course by the start are of each lane, near the first cone. These times will be recorded manually, on paper and directly into Dan Gesmers spreadsheets. The time recorded, and cone count will be written to a sort of flight control tab, kinda like the speed wall on Top Gear. Everyone will be able to see the board, the screen, etc. For the GS we will be able to have the time displayed at the top AND bottom.

Ideally of course Id like the time displayed at top and bottom of the course, and times relayed electronically to large displays rather like what Chris Chaput envisaged a couple of years ago for his races. BUT for practical and Economic reasons I think the systmes we will use at Cadwell will be clear. Very Clear. And fair.

I like a beep, beep ...... beeeeeeeeeeeeeep system, or two beeps after a warning sound. How the start is conveyed really doesnty bother me, I do like the 'pharpppppp' sound at Swimming meets though.... what is needed is consistency on a race basis, not necissarily the same start noises at EVERY race. Thats not really important to me.

The idea of having a variable window is to prevent racers anticipating a start. And reducing FALSE starts, and detect the FIRST racer to false start and penalise them. The best racers will always be able to get a good start, but the diea of the randon 5 second start is to prevent false starts. of course you could gamble that the window will be 'x' seconds, and your gamble may pay off......but its like Russian roullette and in a small test we made it proved impossible to guess consistently and you looked a right plonker most of the time!



A true false start is indicated if a racer departs up[ 1/100th of a second AFTER a final beep as its deemed (in atheletics) that the human cant detect a sound then act on it within that time, Here is an intereting take on Atheltics timing.


HOW DOES IT WORK?
At the start the reaction times of each athlete are measured using starting blocks mounted on a sliding rail. This means that they are sensitive to the thrust given by the sprinters' legs.

These blocks are connected to a second the moment of each contestant's first thrust. This information is recorded in real time.
It is up to the starter, with the information which comes to him from the false start control unit, to call the runners back in the case of a false start.
In addition to the technological considerations there is the physiological factor. In order to perceive and interpret the starting signal, a human being consumes a few fractions of a second which we call reaction time for want of a better knowledge of how the human brain works.
These times vary according to the character of the athlete, his degree of preparation and his concentration when the pistol goes off. The rules of the IAAF (International Amateur Athletic Federation) fix the minimum time of physiological reaction at 100 milliseconds.
Below this limit any movement of reaction is considered to be premature and places the runner in a false start situation. This is why the timekeepers add a loudspeaker to each starting block, through which all the competitors, even the one on the furthest lane from the starter, receive the orders simultaneously to get set and go.


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Cadwell race sanction given BEFORE rules were voted on

Post by Pat Chewning » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:03 pm

Michael Stride wrote:Nope Spike.

The rules arnt implemented. yet.
We cannot expect that the newly-voted on rules will be applied to the Cadwell race. That race received its sanction before the rules were voted on.

We haven't even published the rules yet. (We are on schedule for Dec 15th, though).

Races receiving sanctions before the rules are published probably don't need to follow the rules.


The contest organizer might want to let the racers know which 2008 ISSA rules will not be followed. That can head off any potential problems with racers quoting the rule book on race day, when the race organizer did not intend to fully follow the emerging rules, or could not reasonably be expected to anticipate and react to the rules implementation in progress.

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Post by Michael Stride » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:15 pm

For the Cadwell race we have a website, where all the details have been posted. Its worth a look as its clear and consise, and includes travel suggestions. it may not be flashy BUT its purpose is to help racers with their plans. Other races would do well to do the same for racers I think?

Whilst wait with interest for what the ISSA decide, I will have to say that the system we use at Cadwell will be my choice and decision. Hopefully it will satisfy any new ISSA ruling, but if it doesnt it wont be far off. I dont expect any complaints on our system. What I cannot guarantee is a computer controlled timer or direct input of times automatically to a spreadsheet, but I can guarentee open and fair display of times to racers at the head of the Dual course, written times, and display of those times as each race is done. manually.
I dont really want a generators at the head of the course, even a quite one, but I will probably have that anyway to allow for a laptops continued use, and printer. The timers we will use are the RU ready clocks. We will have a trackmate as back up, and Donald is bring his timer is too.

http://octanesport.co.uk/cadwell.html

I have outlined the timing system as it stands. The actual timing SOUNDS may change, but the timing principle remains the same. we even have the sounds for download for ALL racers to practice. It currently has a three beep sound, and I am unclearwhatform a propsed 4 beep is.....in fact I dont think the beep sounds are important as per my previous post.

IF the timing systems test well I will update the sounds with hopefully 2 months notice. A small thing, but I want all racers to know what to expect.

I think we have shown to any racers attending how the race will be run. There is no excuse not feel informed.

teh whole system has been designed to be usable in a practical manner for races of this nature. IF we had funds and time Id love a sit down computer and stuff, but I feel a transportable, battery opertated system is the ideal for our needs at present.


Any whiners or whingers who plead ignorance will be given a 5million second penalty....

damn...I didnt put that on the website.......

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