Euro comps 2003 (schedule and US participation)

Etienne de Bary · Post by **Etienne de Bary** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:37 am

more seriously Antibes was crowded though lots of riderz were actually excluded by unexpected early closing of the inscriptions on a numerus closus basis.
on the other hand half a dozen american superstars - okay just plain stars

- wouldn't make a crowd, but there is something nice in the idea of a massive local event, as opposed to the typical pro world cup.
If i dare, i would suggest Pierre to include all riderz (to racing, not prizes), but pros.
open would mean exclusive here, funny !

Etienne de Bary · Post by **Etienne de Bary** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:19 am

On 2003-07-23 13:34, Michael Stride wrote:
who's going to tell the American thats already entered the slalom that he can't becuse of a quirk of fate at birth?

i shall keep that definition of american citizenship for later use, sounds somewhat unusual, one could adapt it on the Bruce Springsteen tune "-Born in a quirk of fate"

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:19 pm

As JG has mentioned there is a problem having an open and closed championship at the same time when using a head to head format. These are the solutions for mixing a European and Open Championship as I see it.

1. Don't use head to head format.
2. Run 2 head to heads. The normal one with everyone included and a second one with the 8 best Europeans.

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:22 am

Jani Soderhall wrote:2. John: Non-Europeans have never before (as far as I know) been allowed to enter a European Championships. The races you participated in were never called the European Championships. They were more often ISSA World Cup, European Open or other similar titles.

Jani,

I never entered a European Championship. But I do remember seeing in Slalom! Mag that the European Championships were open to everyone but only a European could be crowned European champion ( I remember pondering that because I wanted to compete- despite not being able to win.... you know Luca would win anyhow LOL.). However, I could be wrong and Adam Trahan has my Slalom! copies at the moment. I could be confusing that with a European open, but I don't think so. Adam Trahan will bring my mags with him to "da Farm 3.0 I do miss having those copies- and thanks to you I read a bunch of them several times over. As I got to know each racer they made much more sense.

But I still am interested in finding out how we could integrate National and International racers in a National Championship. Because...you know if say Attila happened to be in France at the time he would definitely want to race and not just be on the sidelines- (though we all benefit from his excellent photography skills in between his racing).

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:50 am

I don't want to repeat what Gilmour said. So...whatever Gilmour's said.

Brady Mitchell · Post by **Brady Mitchell** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:42 am

My opinions were only my personal veiwpoint. It was my perception only. I never stated that it WAS a politcal decision that Pierre had made to exclude any non-euros from the race he is hosting.

Maybe it was because of my expressed concerns that things have been clarified and the event is now clearly known to be open to all. I also give credit to Michael for being the first and foremost to express similar concerns.

I also know and respect those that host or promote slalom. But just because I voice an opinion on what I perceive, it does not mean I disrespect those that put forth the efforts to host the events.

God forbid this should start another rally like before of where I was accused about commenting, or actually putting down events that FCR was hosting. I was one of the eariest and most vocal showing concerns about FCR`s 2002 series and qualificating to worlds events. Then Eric Groff went full assault saying repeatedly that I was commenting on races I never attended. Which is quite contraire to what I was only stating a concern about qualifying for the FCR Worls event. Never did I comment on any FCR race. But listen to Eric Groff and you`d think otherwise.

And now we find similarities...

FCR changed things for 2003 and qualification of the Worlds is the same for all.

And now because similar concerns were expressed, the Euro event is open to all.

Critciizm may be harsh, be no one is above it, as long as those that criticize have other`s objective as the concern, rather than thier own.

Viva la France, Pierre`s event is on track. I wish them great success!

[ This Message was edited by: Brady Mitchell on 2003-07-24 22:46 ]

Howard Gordon · Post by **Howard Gordon** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:26 pm

Some perspective on the idea of a slalom "World Championship"...

Jack Smith had the idea to organize a World Championship in May 2001 after racing had been dead in the US for at least 10 years and dead in Europe for 5+ years. The event attracted participants from at least 10 countries, brought MANY riders out of retirement (including some champions from the 70's), and generally can be regarded as the event that got slalom going again.

Jack planned to repeat the event in 2002, and was approached by a couple of guys that organized FCR (Fat City Racing) back in the 70's with the idea of creating a high profile race series that would end the season with the World Championship. The FCR series in 2002 was an amazing experience, and anyone who had the good luck to attend any or all of the events generally had very good memories. As we all know, the only problem with the championship was the way that seeding was done, based on points rather than race-day qualifying runs, so there was a strong bias in favor of racers who had participated in FCR events, and there were some unfortunate results for some Europeans who travelled far only to be eliminated quickly. However, the organizers have acknowledged this mistake, and plan to correct it this year.

The World Championship is again planned for Morro Bay this year, with Jack Smith again as the main organizer, and it again promised to be a great event. Fortunately, this year has seen the return of interest in slalom racing in Europe, and it is very exciting to see the creation of a European Championship, plus a lot of interest from Europeans in attending the Morro Bay event. Ask anyone who organizes races - they will tell you that it is a thankless task where everyone has an opinion about what you are doing wrong, and very little appreciation for how difficult it is. Congratulations should be given to Pierre for his efforts in creating the European Championships, plus his patience in dealing with those who will criticize his decisions. Congratulations are also due to Jack for his efforts in creating the World Championships.

It seems that 2004 will be a "watershed" year - I expect Jack Smith will again want to organize a championship race, but we will also see a lot more activity in European racing, and there will be some tension about who is entitled to declare their race as the "World Championship". This is a good time to give a lot of thought to this question, because it is the organizers of our races that have to decide what they want to do, and how they want to work together in a way that helps the sport to grow. As a equipment manufacturer and race participant, I will do what I can to support these efforts.

Pierre Samray · Post by **Pierre Samray** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:28 pm

No damage Jany, don't worry. Discussion are the base of everything.
About what Gianlucca tell me. I see again on the Italian site 38 country on the last world cup in Russia (incredible but certainly true!) I certainly made a mistake with the date.

Wesley : Sure you're american but I'd like to see you in Antibes and this time it will be may be me who lend you board for the differentes races

Michael : You are pure rider want to keep slalom open for everyone. I agree with you. But don't forger that the american create FCR series only in USa, what can do european against that: Our own series with own ranking and expected that American consider it as equivalent to FCR series.Second solution travel to USA every month to race.
In this case only the money make the difference not the level of the rider
Last year we spoke about an european series but don't do it. That why I make a first step in organising an European championship which reward the best European racers. Now I don't want to refuse anyone. It's free, there is no selection. But sure the European champion will be an european racer.

We have now some good races in Europe as Paris, Grueningen, Brandhatches, I expect Kolhn and Antibes. We can work now in the same direction.

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:15 pm

I do think it is important to have National Champions.

If we use single track as a determining factor it is an easy matter to weed out the times of non nationals and order the winning times of the Nationals. Prizes can still be awarded to the National winners.

In Duals it is more difficult. It could be said that any Euro who eliminated an American in the FCR series in Duals would have upset the FCR series points ranking- thus making it hard to order the National Ranking properly (or the Western Conference Ranking- as it is often refered to by the East Coast racers because of the preseeding process last year). Realistically even to include non nationals in Duals racing will upset the seeding and possibly (likely) the final ranking of the Nationals.

It would be nice to be able to do it, but you can't go by times in the Duals because some racers may be holding back- particularly the number one and number 2 seeds who are always facing the slowest of that round.

I suppose you could go to qualifying times in the duals- but again someone who sandbagged regularly would be at a disadvantage. (why might you sandbag? Well lets say you don't want to continue to face increasingly hard racers- you might want to face a difficult racer first....beat him...rest while racing slower racers...and then race the last fast racer left- for those of us in not tip top shape- this is an option).

But announcing to everyone that Qualifying counts for the placing of the Nationals essentially turns Dual into single track. Again you would have to choose runs from a single lane..... as one lane is ussually faster.

Also should a National rider wish to Sandbag for the Dual elimination section with International riders...it isn't an option as his true speed is completely exposed after qualifing to get his National Placing. McCree almost successfully sandbagged against Vlad July 4th.

So I suppose you could limit the racing to single track only for International competitiors. Otherwise you certainly could have a situation where, hypothetically, Luca Gianmarco of Italy came to the USA racing in the Nationals and bumps off Vlad, Mollica, And Myself and likely others (as he has shown he can do) in earlier brackets- effectively disrupting the brackets and results for the Americans.

Here we would see Single track being counted towards National ranking. Perhaps you would see Duals incorporated for points only in International competition.

Why have the National Champion?

Well let's say Simon Levene was "Crowned" British Champion. Simon with his glib ways might be able to Parlay that into a sponsorship from British Airways or Virgin Atlantic so he could go to more races. Same for the 2nd place and 3rd place champions.

It would be great to see National teams form...and Sponsorship by your own countries Corporations should be a goal. If you land a multinational or foreign sponsorship...good for you. Lance Armstrong is sponsored by Credit Lyonnaise, The US Postal Service, Nike, and Oakley to name a few.

To my best recollection the Italian National Slalom Skateboard team was sponsored by Fila, LA Gear, and the "umbrella" of the Italian National Skating federation (Which sponsors athletes in skating, ice skating, hockey, etc). They often got a Full size Motorcoach to use as their racing vechicle. Jani- please correct me as you know more details.

You need valid National championships. The only quandry at our size is how to include duals if we wish to include them.

Of course you shouldn't have to be a National Champion to travel and compete- traveling and competeing is one of the best things about slalom. But for those that practice enough to win their countries National Championship...it would be nice if they were able to secure travel expenses from sponsors.

Sorry for the multiple updates- this computer tends to crash every few minutes.

[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-07-24 11:05 ]

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:37 pm

Chris, for your ideal event to be worthwhile a "world" event would have to be confined to say, the top 3 from various countries, with a common determinator.

Then a race would be a spectator event apart from the top 3, and would be of little interest at this stage in the resurgence.

Or you can have a date, qualification runs before the main event and then the championships, exactly what is happening at FCR Worlds this time. Last time the top FCR points winners were given places in the finals, which was patently unfair to non-us FCR racers, and led to scewing of the bracketing, but this year I am glad to see that its the same rules for every potential entrant.

The Olympic ideal holds no interest to me...a bunch of dignatories touring the world at vast expense, deciding who can hold an event of which they have no knowledge or love for.....its a corrupt system and leads to sports like synchronised indivdual swimming (what that????) and soccer being included....

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:58 pm

Remember when the Olympics really were Olympics? Not just a money making event?

There were national contests and you had to qualify fighting against your people to determine the best of your country to represent all the others in the Olympics. I really like this idea, to get together the best from every nation around the world, I really do and that is why I like the idea of the Nationals. I also like going to a race where a lot of nations are represented like Morro Bay or Paris but a national race has to be for the country only.
Just my opinion.
I doubt that we are anywhere close to having enough racers in some countries to have a good race with only natives, but let´s try and see where we are going with it.

I really get the feeling that we need a global organisation body..........hmm.

[ This Message was edited by: Chris Eggers on 2003-07-24 06:58 ]

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 pm

It turns out that the information I communicated about Pierre's decision about the race was incorrect. I apologize for having communicated incorrect information, but of course I did it with the best of intentions.

I'd like to correct a few of the mistakes from above:

1. Brady:
a) No politics was involved in my opinion. My other friends, the Japanese, Venezuelans and Canadians were also excluded (in my mind) from participating in a European Championships.
b) My opinion has nothing to do with FCR. Why would it? I went to the FCR World Championships last year. I planned to go this year again, but will probably not be able to. I have regular email exchanges with Jack Smith.
c) My opinion has nothing to do with Americans. I was recently involved in organizing the Paris event and we were hoping to attract as many Americans as possible. We were extremely pleased to welcome: Kenny, Bruce, John G, Vlad.
For the Gruningen race I had no role, but I tried to post as much information as I had to attract as many racers as possible from everywhere.

2. John: Non-Europeans have never before (as far as I know) been allowed to enter a European Championships. The races you participated in were never called the European Championships. They were more often ISSA World Cup, European Open or other similar titles.

3. Pierre citing Gianluca:
a) There was no World Championships in 1995.
b) There has never (as far as I know) been a race with 30 countries participating.

Apparently this will be a hot topic as we try to agree upon new guidelines for future events.

I'm sorry if damage have been done to the Antibes event. Pierre is an experienced race organizer and it looks like it is going to be a great race! I hope you all come.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:09 am

Pierre, you are a gentleman. Thankyou.

Chris, my grandfather was German, and Paul Prices mother was!

So Paul could be the German champ???!!!!

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:03 am

Pierre,

Do you have your own board for this race? Because I an NOT sending my Santa Cruz H-Bomb to France for you to borrow!

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:46 am

Michael, you did not get my point this time. If I would be able to race in Cologne (which I 80% cannot) you would be able to race me and be the winner of the race too if you get first place, but you would not be the German Champion because you are english. The German Champion will be the fastest German on the given day. One race, two winners.

Pierre Samray · Post by **Pierre Samray** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:22 am

Hello all.
I'm just back after a three weeks vacation.
Sorry to make so much trouble with the Euro championship I organize in september.
I try to answer you. No Michael! there is no segregation or bad intention. The race is of course open to everyone, but you have to know I call it "Euro championship" to show that in Europe we have a good scene too. Very good racer may be happy to have an international race in Europe for european people, because unfortunatly most of them can't go to Usa to compete. That why I try to contact people from all european country (a lot of people!) from Italia, Uk, Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, Austria, Letvia, France... and other. Now if american people come, sure there are welcome, if an american win, sure he will be the winner, but he couldn't be the european championship.I would like the european racers to recognize that as there own championship. In the same time we will have the french championship with a separate ranking, so where is the problem?

Gianlucca Ferrero tell me that in 1995 there was more than 30 different countries on the
"world championship". Actualy how many in Morrow bay? maybe 3 or 4 : 40 americans and 10 europeans. It's a pity! I try to have ten countries in Antibes as in Grueningen.

Some people says too that the race is on the speedside, mixing speed discipline and slalom. That right. But you have to know that the newcomers (the youth) are racing on both very well as Martin Siegrist or Raffael Schaffner from switzerland. A lot of Young are coming to slalom after practise speed.
May be it's time for all the fourties year old to think of the future if you don't want to see the slalom dying one time again in few years.
Don't worry: the slaloms in Antibes will be true slaloms except the super GS, which is the way to make downhiller discover cones and enjoy it.
The downhill is not so difficult and some of you will be able to do it in stand-up or buttboard just for fun to enjoy the moment. The others will have a great spectacle on the side of the track or simply go to the beach and visit the French Riviera.
I give soon information about accomodation on the site http://planet-longskate.com

Michael I will be sad if you won't come in Antibes. I think you will miss something nice.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:18 am

Maybe I'm dumb, but If I entered Koln who would I race if no other foreigners turned up?
I have heard the argument that if good foreign racers turn up it could discourage less good slalomers from entering. I'm afraid that i don't accept this. When Michael Dong and Ritchie carrasco turned up at Brands almost every skater enetered. Maybe its an attitude thing, the Britsih sensibility tends to be that its the taking part that counts, where maybe some other nations feel that its the winning thats important.
So Chris, why would I want to go to Koln and not be able to race you?

The solution is so obvious, all races should be open. And where there is a conflict as in Gilmores example, which i had already noted then perhaps a ranking on times would suffice.

So, we have a situation where on the sign up to Antibes there is an American on the list...and I get an E-mail from Jani suggesting (serriously) that he be told onn Pierres return from holiday that he can't enter.

Its unnesesary, rude, anti competitive, can be percieved as unfriendly and wont help any Euros who go to US races in particular, where any foreign racers are generally made to feel welcome.

As it stands i wont be bothering with the Euros, and I was planning on going, the timeing of the event was actually good for me, but I'd rather go to a race where anyone is welcome.

Last question, again attempted to be -answered by Jani in an e-mail to me: Where exactly are the boundaries of Europe...will Pierre check the passports of competitors and ban any Algerians? Jani tells me Russians can enter, but Isrealis can't.

Unless the Rules of the event are posted clearly at the outset then this race is a sham and entirely pointless. And the ISSA wants to put its name to it....joke!

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:43 am

I just got an info from Axel Fischer concerning the German Champs in two weeks. There will be no one restricted from participation in this race, but as the race is set to determine the fastest German racer, there will be two different categories, an international one and a german one.
Axel also stated that he wanted to stage the race and encourage Germans to participate in the first place. You must understand that the german slalom scene is very small and the level is not too high (yet) and a g´big tournout of international racers (for example Mr. S.) might discourage lesser skilled skaters to race if there was no seperate category.
To take everything into one sentence: the German Championchip is there to find the fastest German, so germans have to race against germans (only) but if anyone wants to come to Cologne, go ahead, it can only get better.

Brady Mitchell · Post by **Brady Mitchell** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:08 am

Jani,

It is only just my veiwpoint. I can`t think of any logical reason to exclude anyone. Michael has clearly stated the obvious on reasons why it doesn`t make sense.

Now had there already been a series where national comps were held, and then maybe a euro title, but still that wouldn`t justify excluding racers.

So yeah, a race held in France, hosted by one from France, whuch is excludes racers based on locality, which mostly affects those from the US (where there are probably more active slalomers than all elsewhere combined) and in this current state of our differentiating politics, reeks of impropriety.

And my feelings may be off basis, but that`s how I percieve it.

********************************************

Let`s take FCR as an example...

First there was Morro Bay world title..

Then some other events...

Then the following year with FCR events ending with FCR`s World title.

And now this year with FCR events and separately the World title.

So now there is going to be a Euro title?

Was anyone excluded from the get go at any FCR event? Where there not any non-americans at any of the FCR events.

It`s not what was intended, but what those in reality feel about it. I can`t think of any good spin on this other than if things changed, to allow any to enter. But then I`m afraid it may be too late. Damage already done.

And I`d love to be proved wrong....

[ This Message was edited by: Brady Mitchell on 2003-07-24 01:13 ]

John Gilmour · Post by **John Gilmour** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:33 am

In the past Americans could enter the European championships- but an American for obvious reasons can not be crowned European Champion.

The only place I see conflict perhaps with mixing International Competitiors in national Championships is in Dual Elimination racing. Seeding quandries could occur.

I have traveled to a bunch of slalom competitions and a lot since Nov. 2000. I of course would like to attend all of them...but that really isn't possible.

What I would like to see are a few select World Cup competition come out of this where we could expect large umbers of slalomers with high international participation attending. I think for the time being in our present size 3-5 such larger Interantional competitions is enough. We wouldn't want to see slalomers families getting burnt out- or everyones frequent flyer miles continuously exhausted.

Howard Gordon · Post by **Howard Gordon** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:56 am

Michael -

When I first saw your post, I got the impression that for some reason the Euro Championships were excluding Brits, and the politics of that would be disturbing. However, it seems reasonable to me for a regional slalom event should be able define boundaries for participation, as is the case in most other sports, and it doesn't bother me to see a focused event like this.

Of course, Jani is correct in stating that we're approaching the point that creation of an organizing body for racing at the international level should be supported. It is fortunate that the sport is reaching a level where we have enough participants to begin to have these sorts of concerns.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:34 pm

Wes, yes.

Makes absolute sense to me.

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:46 pm

The answer to this is simple:

Pierre might reconsider his position and open the race to anyone capable to run the cones. (Americans included.)

However, there would be a distinct "European Champion" awarded to a European racer. If a non-European has the fastest time, they would have the satisfaction of knowing they beat the best Europe had to offer. The Trophy, though, would go to a European. No one would be excluded from competing, but only some would qualify to win a prize.

And don't think this is just an anti-American rule. Unless Pierre decides that Claude, Civ and the other Canadians can race but only Americans are considered non-europeans, then I would take it personally. As it is, just leave the politics out of it.

Oh, how would skaters feel about travelling long distances to compete with no chance of winning a prize? Gee, I don't know. Ask the many who do it almost every weekend just for the fun of skating a slalom course.

That is reward in itself.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:34 pm

The simple answer to your question at the end of your peice is that if a Skater chose to come along to any race they should feel able to enter.
By leaving competitions open to all you encourage skaters to race. Limiting numbers based on where your mother chose to give birth is just a nonsense.
In what way would having non Europeans detract from the race in Antibes?
If you really expect people to care about this race at all then it must be open.
Do the ISSA have any rules on these matters?

Also, who's going to tell the American thats already entered the slalom that he can't becuse of a quirk of fate at birth? Are we going to check the passports to see if any Algerians are sneaking in, or whether Paul Price has renounced his Australian passport...its an utter nonsense and this xenophobia is going to drive skaters away from comps big time.

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:14 pm

Brady,

First of all let me say that politics has absolutely nothing to do with anything I discuss in the skateboard world. Only Americans seems to worry about relationships with the French and the possible impact of the US stance in the Iraqi war. The average French doesn't. They might have a personal opinion, but there is no anger or anything else in general against Americans. They are more than welcome as usual (and we continue to buy a majority of American goods, especially in this sport!). I'm even shocked at your question and the accusations that we'd make decisions withing skateboarding based upon what political decisions are being made in the world. I hope you didn't really believe that.

Secondly, I'm not organizing this competition. I'm just posting my own view. Pierre Samray is the main organizer. He might still be on vacation, so you may have to wait another week or two for his opinions.
I have asked him the question at least twice and he has been very firm in his answers, so I believe it is his view that the European Championships is an event to find out who is the fastest European.

Third, FCR does good things for American racing, but I'm not sure what kind of role they want or have in the rest of the world. In my mind to have a race in Europe FCR sanctioned doesn't mean much and I have the feeling they even gave up the idea themselves soon after announcing it.

Fourth, to help regulate the slalom activity the time is soon ripe to introduce a regulatory, formal or informal, body in order to take certain decisions as to how we run things. Please don't respond to this in this specific thread as it well worth a topic of its own.

Fifth, to answer Michael's question: Pierre has tried to follow the ISSA rules as much as he could when defining this years European Championships, but he has chosen the rules that suits him, and although ISSA logos will certainly be displayed in conjunction with the event it is not an ISSA event as we knew them before.

That Pierre is doing a Super G to encourage this type of racing should certainly encourage some of the Americans as it shows that Europe is not all about tight slalom.

May I turn the question around: In what way would opening up the European Championships to non-Europeans (for example Israelis, Japanese, Venezuelans, South Africans and Americans) actually be better for the development of the sport?

/Jani

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:30 pm

Jani, it still doesnt wash with me.

How can we possibly restrict entrance to ANY race. I see you entered Eastbourne last year, alongside Dan Gesmer. Had we called it the "Britsh flat championships" you would have been prevented from entering...how lame is that? What if Paris had been for French nationals...

And Brady, I doubt if it is Anti American. If it was I would be doubly shocked.

If this attitude reamians I can see some fine American races being for Americans only, and I wouldnt blame them.

So who exactly is organising this Antibes comp, is it ISSA sanctioned?

Brady Mitchell · Post by **Brady Mitchell** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:40 pm

Jani,
Here is a quote from Sam G over on ncdsa...

"In cycling, National Championships for most (if not all) countries are open championships. That means to say say that a race can be won by an alien, but the first over the line of the holding nation becomes its national champion. By organising an event in such a way competition is increased and the championship title is then worthy of competition on a global playing field."

And I agree with him.

Maybe what`s not been made clear is WHY exclude non-euros? Is it to give your race more credibilty against the FCR`s World race? Is it because FCR has not sanctioned your race as an FCR event?

Granted we may share an opinion that FCR needs to relax thier criteria for what can qualify as an FCR event. Even within the states. Currently thier demads are that thier ramps (w/gates) be used and that one or more of thier reps be in attendance (at the race host`s expense).

But still, by banning non-euros, you are not adding credibilty to your race but rather making a joke of it. It just makes no sense in light of what others have stated...

[let non-euros enter and still give the title to the fastest euro. Or maybe better yet, offer two titles, one for fastest euro and one for the fastest overall]

In closing, even though you stated it is a non-political decision, without any rhyme or reason, it does look like so in light of Frances stance on USA`s war on IRAQ and France`s disapproval of it. I also see it meant as a anti US gesture (what other racers would be non-allowed.....who WOULD possibly show up and compete??) but maybe that`s just my veiwpoint.

Is it racing?

[ This Message was edited by: Brady Mitchell on 2003-07-23 10:46 ]

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:49 pm

Michael,

Europe for me is a geographical location, not a political or administrational, so yes Russians are welcome, because they are part of Europe. However Israel is not, so no Israeli slalomers this time.

For a Swedish Championships it is completely normal for me to have only Swedes. It shouldn't surprise many.

However I understand your concern for the sport, but the way I look at it people can only afford to travel to a certain number of events per year, so why not concentrate on those that are truly international? It'll make those event even better.

OK, you're right it is a bit weird to prohibit anyone who wants to compete, but for official titles, such as European Champion, I still agree with Pierre that the best European could only be a European.

Let's hope that this will not discourage any of the top US riders from coming to Europe at another occasion, and let's hope that many more of the newbees to slalom in Europe would like to enter and enjoy the thrills of competing.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:37 pm

Jani, I just dont get it.

Are you saying that 5 years ago, when very few Americans were skating slalom in Europe from the US, Gilmore would have been excluded from entering?

What are the Criteria for "European" do you take the EU countries, or the European Area, why not include Israel and Russia like in the Eurovison song contest. Its a complete joke.

Unless some one, or some organisation has actually sat down and debated these matters then I just dont get this exclusion of non Euros at all.

As its stands we have a competition where non Euros arnt welcome, now tell me, how does that help slalom???

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:09 pm

If certain competitions are regional, it makes the open ones more attractive, doesn't it? I think it's good to have a few really important events in a year, events which most people would like to attend, rather than try to make everybody come to every event.

National, European and World titles are important in everybody's minds I think. There's a better value in saying "I'm the European champion" then "I won against the best in Europe".

That European and World Championships are open to participants regardless of level is a great thing. Let's try to keep it like that. If there are too many people signing up, we'll just have to figure out a different qualification system, or add another day. Let's dream of having to encounter this problem soon!

The European Championships have a history of being regional like most national championships. Rare are those that have either invited or attracted foreign participants.

The ideal thing for next year is to have a kind of World Cup series with 5 events or so spread out over the USA and Europe, and maybe even Japan. These would be the top ranked races to go to. But they would need to be top level in terms of organisation and so on, so maybe 2004 is too early to make this happen. Maybe it'll be only 2005.

In the mean time I hope FCR continues their series. That other American races are also happening and gaining credibility and attention, and that the Europeans get together and plan for one great event in each country, maybe call it European Series (and let it be open to all participants).

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:07 am

Boardercross http://www.madcow.ch this weekend. Come over Michael, I need my monthly beating you........

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:29 am

That looks fun. I wonder how tight tight will be...
And you get to qualify in each event, so thats a few runs then.
Slalomcross isnt my scene but i'll give it a bash.

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:06 am

Michael,
click on the icon to see what is going where and when.

<center>
<a href="http://www.ncdsa.com/contest_registrati ... testID=100" TARGET="_blank"><IMG SRC="http://images3.fotki.com/v30/photos/5/5 ... ath-vi.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="All I’m saying is see you in Paris next year"></a>
</center>

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:41 am

Vlad, I'd agree with you on the big slalom deal In France, and a similar widening of cone distance happened at the recent Hot Heels comp in Austria.
Now what the deal with Morro? I see from their site fcrseries.com that official FCR races can have a specialty event that suits the location, are you saying Morro will have slalomcross?

Vlad Popov · Post by **Vlad Popov** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:48 pm

This EU championship is a bit on the downhill/speedboarding side while MB is a bit on the slalomcross side. See you in Paris next year. Keep the slalom side up!

<center>

</center>

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:07 pm

Micheal...I can honestly say that you will most likely see me in england for a race next summer...brand's hatch is the one I'd love to go to....there is no better place on the planet to my wife than england, she LOVES england and everything english so SHE wants to go more than I.

paris is another one and hopefull there will be something in northern italy!

Europe is much cooler than going to califnornia anyday. My wife agrees.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:38 pm

If you held an American championship i'd whine and whine an whine and shame you into defeat. Or marry your sister, if you have one. I'd rather keep things "open" and the solution is to have "open" races with bragging rights for the highest host nation rider. Trouble is if a local contender is beaten by a johhny foriegner then the arguments start.

At least the FCR Worlds doesnt have qualifying this year, alongside free entries to points leaders in the series.

I can promise you Chris, if you come to a British champs you will be made welcome. And if you won I'd be happy for you.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:28 pm

Surely Europeans don't see Morro Bay as a true "world championships"..hell I know many americans who don't.

that is sorta my point in the above rambling post. The term "World Championships" right npow means absolutely nothing. Having regional/country championships feed into a true world championship would be good. In that sense these regional comps should be for said region only.

At this point I could put on a race at my pracice spot in front of my apartment building....post a date and a time for a "race" have only me show up and I could call it the "World championships"....and make myself the all supreme wolrd champion. See how the term means little right now, there is no levels feeding into it the justify it.

If someone posted a US championships tomorrow...would you expect to come? Or how about a California championships...again would you expect to come? If you posed a "British championship: I wouldn't expect to come.

but if we all met in paris for the "European open" then that would be lovely.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:17 pm

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:16 pm

Micheal...where are the "de facto" worlds right now?

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:09 pm

I do see your point Chris, but as yet the de-facto "Worlds" has no entry requirement from nations, ie top three only.
Lets compare Slalom to say, Tennis or Golf (last time for that I hope!) and what we have are "open" champs.
Something I have never really understood in all sports is why being the national best is so important, as being the best in say, Monaco or Luxembourg isnt likely to be the same as being the best American, in terms of shere numbers. So if we had entry requirements for the "Euros" all we can get is the best amongst other Euros...where is the prestige or kudos in that?

Are we really at a stage in Slalom where we can afford to exclude racers...what if you come from South Africa? You'd be excluded from many races. I still wont support an exclusive comp. Not for at least a couple of years i reckon.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:33 pm

Micheal I see your point given how things are organised now...but in the grand scheme of things (in a structured
perfect" slalom world) regional comps should be exclusive to said region. A German championships should be just that. A German "Open" would be open to anyone, thus the "open" erm.

These regional comps would determine say the top 3 german (or country riders) which in turn should go represent their country in international "World cup" level comps.

So you would hav country championships that are to determine the best in the country. You would have open races which are open to anyone and world cup events open to the winners of respective country comps.....

Any other organized racing sport has various levels like this.

HOWEVER....

What is cool about the way the slalom world is now is that it isn't at that level, yet. You can go to a comp and race the top guys....that is sorta cool.

but in order for our sport to be valid on a global/organised level it needs structure. Right now there isn't enough interest of people to need it...but I would like to see it go to that level.

If you are competeing on a "world cup" level it means something. Right now it is just an abstract term that any organizer can use at will.

Michael Stride · Post by **Michael Stride** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:44 pm

So the Euros is only open to Euros...
I will not go if that is the case.
Slalom should be inclusive, not exclusive.
Tell me it aint so.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 12:06 pm

My post above was updated today with the latest information on both the European Championships and the World Championships.

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:31 pm

Jack Smith wrote to me yesterday saying that the World Championships will be held on September 26-28 (so ignore the incorrect information on http://www.FcrSeries.com).

The European Championships will be September 20-21, confirmed by Pierre Samray two days ago.

Paul Price · Post by **Paul Price** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 7:42 pm

The FCR worlds are on the 26 September.

When is the European competition in antibes nice in September?

Joachim Leonhardt · Post by **Joachim Leonhardt** » Sun Jan 26, 2003 12:33 pm

Thank you for this information.

I have looked at it, but ...

... very sorry, only have had latin at school...

Please keep me informed about the race events in France.

Thank you !

Etienne de Bary · Post by **Etienne de Bary** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 6:58 am

to John Gilmour :
the ground in Trocadero is as slick as baby skin, very fast and sticky as long as it is dry ; sometimes the wind brings wet from the fountains at the bottom, but if you go that far down you are too fast anyway, aren't you ?
there is some cracks on the left track, only the right one is in use for skating (longskating every tuesday night)

to Hans Koraeus & Joachim Leonhardt :
http://www.riderz.net a forum particularly oriented on making longboard dates and events in France, has a very active slalom section too, very useful, warm and friendly (in the typical rooster way of course)

Joachim Leonhardt · Post by **Joachim Leonhardt** » Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:19 pm

Hans,

Yes, we already have http://www.ncdsa.com (as a general skate-forum) and http://www.SlalomSkateboarder.com. We are linked to them, too.

You are completely right, we do not need further forums.

SER - SlalomEuroRacing isn't a forum, it is a the site of our SlalomEuroRacing Team.
We are on the way to promote SlalomSkatebording in Europe.
Therefor it is necessary to have events, racings and a good PublicRelation work and good sponsors, too.
Therefor we have SER - SlalomEuroRacing - hoping that all things were done fast and good. But it is a piece of hard work to organise all needed things. Slalom is my hobby - not my profession.

It would be helpful, if http://www.SlalomSkateboarder.com and http://www.ncdsa.com would organise Slalomraces in Europe and if we could get some support from the US racing experienced.

Jani Söderhäll is a member of our Team. He is a very engaged person, too.
I hope that my short explanation is helping to understand what it is all about.

You are welcome to help us to get the things done in Europe.

Joachim SER - SlalomEuroRacing

Hans Koraeus · Post by **Hans Koraeus** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 11:48 pm

Joachim,

What is the "SlalomEuroRacing" site adding to what we already have on this site? Isn't it better to put all our efforts into making this site and forum roll.

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