[2007] Paris Slalom World Cup 2007, May 26-28, 2007

European Races & Results (for Major, Main and Prime level races)

Moderators: Jani Soderhall, Robert Thiele

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:50 pm

Let's simply prohibit lifting wheels, only allow optical beams or put the tapeswitch on a reasonable position.


Everything else would need extra rules to be added - I think we should concentrate on the actual competition that takes place on the course inbetween the cones and not at the start. The start actually is "merely a means to an end", shall mean it is there for physical reasons (because you cannot really start at the first cone when v=0). (might be an abstract explanation but I guess you know what I mean)


...



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Post by Chris Barrett » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:29 am

Offtopic:

Anybody want to help a canuck out with some info on the park with the bowl that people went to last year? I really want to try and hit it this time. Thanks.
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starts

Post by Michael Dong » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:16 am

For single lane tape switch starts, hopping the front wheels over the tapeswitch should never be allowed. It is poor sportsmanship outside of the intent of a fair start. Could be monitored just like foot faults in tennis. Tapeswitch hop = false start.

I have participated in many races with the 2X penalty. This has worked very well and seems about right for this penalty. You jump by 0.1 and you are screwed with a 0.2 penalty and your competitor knows it. I have never liked being on the side of the penalty. It has never helped. When my competitor jump started against me, it always worked in my favor.

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Post by Stefano Bellingeri » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:56 am

I agree as well: NO jumped starts allowed, please....as well as skateboards with MORE than 4 wheels...
CU in Paris,
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:31 am

Using light beams at the start never worked very well, because the ramp constructions are not solid enough, so the light beams are kind of jumping around. Sticks would work fine, but I don't have any (and they tend to break).

Placing the tapeswitch half way down the ramp makes it difficult for racers to time their start with the beeps and estimating the time it takes to roll down half of the ramp. Wouldn't work.

The technical solution we're working on knows if it's the first pair of wheels or the second pair. That would solve it.

However we don't know how to penalize the guy that goes to early. At least it won't work with a false start penalty of 2x because we have nothing to multiply by two. So we need a fix figure like 0.5s penalty. Maybe that's what we should use until we have a technical solution in place. If you're seen doing it, you're penalized. The timer team could probably check it at least on bigger events.

The timing in Brixlegg worked just like anywhere else where Trackmate has been used in Europe: In the quals, individual clocks are being used. The beeps are only there to let the skaters know when they can go. In the elimination rounds, the clock is reset to dual racing mode and the time starts with the 4th beep.


A new question for you: what about DQ penalty? 1.5 sec always or re-estimated according to a % of the time of course. At the Trocadero I think 1.5 sec is OK, but in the rule book we may have to make it a % of the estimated course time.

/Jani

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Post by David Rudnianski » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:56 am

Chris Barrett wrote:Offtopic:

Anybody want to help a canuck out with some info on the park with the bowl that people went to last year? I really want to try and hit it this time. Thanks.

It's a type of concret bowl with plastic on the bottom... no huge vert but realy fun, and about 3m deep in the huge part. Check yourself :

http://static.flickr.com/58/164689959_62e59d400b_b.jpg

A video of the event: http://media.putfile.com/PSWC-aftershow or http://uploadfile.putfile.com/videos/14619570235.wmv
French Pirates are in the place...
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:10 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:However we don't know how to penalize the guy that goes to early. At least it won't work with a false start penalty of 2x because we have nothing to multiply by two. So we need a fix figure like 0.5s penalty. Maybe that's what we should use until we have a technical solution in place. If you're seen doing it, you're penalized. The timer team could probably check it at least on bigger events.
0.5s penalty is pretty tough charge for doing a false start. Imagine you have a very good reaction time then you either start only a hundreth of a second late or a hundreth of a second early. In the worse case it is early.

So I think starting so close to the limit should not be charged by a fix time penalty but rather be determined individally. It's like differential calculation: you're getting closer to the optimum point and whether you come from one or the other side, the closer you get the better you are and the less you should be charged for (e.g. in case you just missed the point by 0.01s)


rmn
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:23 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:Placing the tapeswitch half way down the ramp makes it difficult for racers to time their start with the beeps and estimating the time it takes to roll down half of the ramp. Wouldn't work.

The timing in Brixlegg worked just like anywhere else where Trackmate has been used in Europe: In the quals, individual clocks are being used. The beeps are only there to let the skaters know when they can go. In the elimination rounds, the clock is reset to dual racing mode and the time starts with the 4th beep.
For qualifications, which are virtually always individually timed, put the first tapeswitch halfway down the ramp or at the bottom of it. (As you mentioned, in Brixlegg they placed the switches at the bottom and it worked fine.) Any skater tries to "wheelie" over the switch in either of those places will likely hurt his/her time more than help it. Try it sometime: you'll see it's very difficult to do at all, much less to do effectively.

For dual racing (in which, as Jani mentioned, the timer starts with the last beep instead of by the tape switch) put the switches back at the top. It would take maybe an extra three minutes of time to do so.

Thus, in qualifying, nobody can gain an extra advantage, and in dual racing, you simply run over the switch at the start the way God intended. :-)

Jani Soderhall wrote:Maybe that's what we should use until we have a technical solution in place. If you're seen doing it, you're penalized. The timer team could probably check it at least on bigger events.
Please don't seriously consider trying to have a "judge" determine whether someone lifted his/her wheels or not. It's complicated, subject to interpretation or bias, and requires yet another person to implement. (What if someone just takes an extra-hard pull and accidentally wheelies over the switch?) We don't have such judges any more (thank God!) for hitting the "wrong" side of a cone, because it's far too difficult to judge, and IMO, we shouldn't have them for this either.

Having thought about it further: Perhaps the best solution is to prevent it in qualifying (by putting the tape switch at the bottom of the ramp), and simply allow it in dual racing as part of the skill of anticipating the start. When combined with an effective false-start penalty (I recommend 2x for simplicity), I think any advantage gained would be very slight.

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Post by Jonathan Harms » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:25 pm

Jani Soderhall wrote:A new question for you: what about DQ penalty? 1.5 sec always or re-estimated according to a % of the time of course. At the Trocadero I think 1.5 sec is OK, but in the rule book we may have to make it a % of the estimated course time.
Because the length of courses varies widely, it seems fairer to use a percentage of some sort rather than a fixed time. At Morro Bay, I think they used 10% of the fastest qualifying time. That seemed pretty fair.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:28 pm

Ramón Königshausen wrote:
Jani Soderhall wrote:However we don't know how to penalize the guy that goes to early. At least it won't work with a false start penalty of 2x because we have nothing to multiply by two. So we need a fix figure like 0.5s penalty.
0.5s penalty is pretty tough charge for doing a false start. Imagine you have a very good reaction time then you either start only a hundreth of a second late or a hundreth of a second early.
Ramon,

You misunderstood the discussion. I'm talking about the case when someone lifts their front wheels over the tapeswitch.

/Jani

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:47 pm

Ah, well then I fully agree with you.

(I didn't notice this was linked to lifting wheels, rather I thought you were generally speaking...)
Jonathan Harms wrote:
Jani Soderhall wrote:Maybe that's what we should use until we have a technical solution in place. If you're seen doing it, you're penalized. The timer team could probably check it at least on bigger events.
Please don't seriously consider trying to have a "judge" determine whether someone lifted his/her wheels or not. It's complicated, subject to interpretation or bias, and requires yet another person to implement. (What if someone just takes an extra-hard pull and accidentally wheelies over the switch?) We don't have such judges any more (thank God!) for hitting the "wrong" side of a cone, because it's far too difficult to judge, and IMO, we shouldn't have them for this either.
I guess if we would strictly prohibit it but abandon the idea with the judge, the consequence for being caught lifting the wheels would be harder ever.

rmn
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Post by Chris Barrett » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:16 pm

David Rudnianski wrote:
Chris Barrett wrote:Offtopic:

Anybody want to help a canuck out with some info on the park with the bowl that people went to last year? I really want to try and hit it this time. Thanks.

It's a type of concret bowl with plastic on the bottom... no huge vert but realy fun, and about 3m deep in the huge part. Check yourself :

http://static.flickr.com/58/164689959_62e59d400b_b.jpg

A video of the event: http://media.putfile.com/PSWC-aftershow or http://uploadfile.putfile.com/videos/14619570235.wmv
Thanks david, I've seen it and been there. I want info on where its located. Thanks.
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Post by Mike Cividino » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:07 pm

Chri, I know how to get there.
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Post by Chris Barker » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:01 am

Was it decided? Is Pro Straight going to be 1.8M or 2.0M?

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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:48 am

Chris Barker wrote:Was it decided? Is Pro Straight going to be 1.8M or 2.0M?
Finally really few racers gave their inputs. Just a few are pushing for 1.80 but many hadn't problem with 2m (the quiet majority?).
But even if we couldn't have real meeting with Jani, I think we'll go for a more challenging straight race at 1.80m for PROs!
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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:06 pm

coolio
and the ams get 2m then?

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Post by Guillaume Saint-Criq » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:50 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:and the ams get 2m then?
yes sir

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Post by Peter Klang » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:15 pm

It has to be 1,80. We been running 2 meter for ages now.

Just a thought, drop GS, the hill is not a GS hill anyway and run a killer Hybrid.

Hybrid parallell, now thats a crowd pleaser.

Yoooooooooooooo
PK

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:22 pm

Cheers! That's good news!


rmn
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Post by Stefano Bellingeri » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:48 pm

I'm for a killer special and a killer hybrid: not more than 1.80.
Thanks
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:57 pm

Well Hybrid with cone distances less than 1.80m is a contradiction since Hybrid is supposed to be somethin in between Tight and Giant...

However, the Special ought to be technical. The one from last year was great!


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Post by Karl Floitgraf » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:14 pm

What is the difference between hybrid and special?? When I race in the US, it's called hybrid- with less flow. In Europe it's called Special- with a little more flow. Either way they are practically the same event.
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:01 pm

Whenever the course has (technical) offsets it means Special. Therefore special can be Tight or wider, if it is much wider then I would call it a Hybrid but most of the Europeans rather call everything that is not GS or Straight a Special Slalom....

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Post by Karl Floitgraf » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:30 am

I never understood strait slalom. Good for training to work on technique- not something I'd want to compete on. Riding the course and finding the technical line is my favorite part of skating.

So lemme get this all figured out. Is the TS strait cones? Or is the tight and the strait and the special all different events?

I'm just curious though, I'm not trying to suggest change in anyway I don't know anything about the organization of this contest.
Last edited by Karl Floitgraf on Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Donald Campbell » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:23 am

you never understood because you are always drunk when in europe.
just wait,i'm gonna tell daddy what his son does on his vacations!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Karl Floitgraf » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:13 pm

Actually I just sobered up lately. I quit 'amateur sticks' as Ramon likes to call them. No more crazy nights with bottles of tequilla for me for a long while.
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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:07 pm

The official PSWC website is online since a few days

Online registrations are not yet open,
but everything should be OK really really soon.


I just want you to know that PAYPAL SERVICES ARE BAD BAD BAD
they block our account (thanks to Adel and his famous true/false payements!)
and they are not able to do anything to get pur account back after hours on payphone to resolve this on the last months.
PAYPAL IS CRAP, customer services is just inefficient and inexistant!!!!!
So be careful, the paypal address won't be the same than last year. We'll use the one of another association linked to us.

Official PSWC website:
http://event.riderz.net/pswc

(Karl got sober, but for others, here's the english version if you miss the little flag because of Tequila ;) :
http://event.riderz.net/pswc/index.php? ... me&lang=us )

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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:17 pm

Karl
we should change name everywhere but it's true that we often use names that were set for the first PSWC:

Tight Slalom = should be called STRAIGHT
PRO:1m80 and AMs: 2m (cry NOW if you really think that many amateurs can't do it)

Special Slalom= We want it to be quite tight at least on a part of the course for pros. Amateur race could be what you call hybrid, but it's an AM special.

And don't worry, the big steal cone is still there in front of the spot.
Last edited by Vincent Berruchon on Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:00 pm

Thanks Vinzz! I'm looking forward to the event!

PS: I like the schedule ;-)

rmn
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marcus input in all these sensitive subjects

Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:45 pm

About starts; I agree with JBH, put the switch at the bottom of the startramp for quali and the problem is solved. In duals move it up to the top again and change it to a beam.

It's simply to hard to tell if someone lifted on purpose - like me - or if it was due to some sort of hard pull. Unless its banned and there is a way to monitor this why would you not lift the wheels? If you do it properly you can gain 0.2 seconds, which at Troca is the difference between being 5 or 15 in the straight race (or winning with an extra wide margin if you like). Its not cheating, its adaption.

About the DQ-start I say get rid of it and use 2x penalty for early start. I prefer having a rabbit, but I prefer much more to have a "clean" start. I don't think conespray is a problem in the pros. Its very annoying being called back after pulling in 0.07 seconds early, lets get rid of it.

What I think would be a much more elegant solution would be to use real reaction starts. This way you would get rid of both the lifters and the DQ's. If you let a computer do the randomization its very hard not to say impossible to leave early.

The problem with the 'reaction started' events I have been to is that the guy who says "5 seconds warning - go!" gets tired after 5 heats and starts saying it in a very predictable way so that you can leave early and get away with it.



And now to the votes.
Pros 1.80m - Great news a new challenge (though not comparable times to prevous years)
Ams 2.00m - Tough news for the ams, coneheads and the audience. When I raced am it was 2.50m
Tech Special - Woohoo!
GS - Go dual hybrid!
Start - Either "real reaction", or 2x penalty. Get rid of the start-DQ!

Thank you for listening. Over

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Post by Keith Hollien » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:49 pm

I am still trying to figure out if I can afford to make it to Paris then Hannover, but I have a couple of questions.

Will the tight be 1.8m for the pros?(I have read it will, but is it for sure. I hope so)
Will the GS be on another hill? (I have read it will and it will not. I like dual Hybrid.)
Will the false start double your penalty?(I think it should and it works very well.)
Will there be prize money and pay to what place?

I hope to make it to Paris for my fourth year in a row, but I have to see how much it will cost for me to go.

Keith, Teams Radikal, CHIxILL & Oust.

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Post by Vincent Berruchon » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:09 pm

I hope to see you in Paris Keith ;)

Here are the answers to your questions:

Will the tight be 1.8m for the pros?(I have read it will, but is it for sure. I hope so)
YES

Will the GS be on another hill? (I have read it will and it will not. I like dual Hybrid.)
Probably not - we lost a lot of time on that - we're sorry we are still threats to public order - could be on another slope in the gardens but just a little steeper and not much long, hard for public and organization, so does it worse to change... We know that you like to ride the Trocadero

Will the false start double your penalty?(I think it should and it works very well.)
YES

Will there be prize money and pay to what place?
YES paid with cash euros on site as usual
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:36 pm

Sorry that I ask, maybe I've just skipped that, but what exactly is "2x penalty"?

Double the time of a cone penalty, thus 0.2 sec?

rmn
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:39 pm

"2x" means a penalty of two times the amount of false start. If you start .1 second early, you'd get .2 seconds added to your time. If you jump by .04, you'd get .08 added. Und so weiter.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:37 am

Geht klar, danke.

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offtopic?

Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:13 am

Though you might add (like Jani said a few posts back) that the Trackmate clock doesn't start running until the fourth beep, so if you leave 0.2 secs early your time in the course will be 0.2 less than if you would have started exactly on the beep. So by adding 0.4 you actually only add 0.2 secs penalty, the other 0.2 seconds is to adjust the time so that it is correct.

This gives that by using the 2x penalty you get penalized equally by starting 0.2 early as if you start 0.2 late. Which some consider being wrong or little. I think it's ok, you still try to leave as close to the beep as possible.

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Re: offtopic?

Post by Jani Soderhall » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:56 pm

Marcus Seyffarth wrote:This gives that by using the 2x penalty you get penalized equally by starting 0.2 early as if you start 0.2 late. Which some consider being wrong or little.
Most races seems to be using 2x, so we are just trying to accept the already used method, rather than re-invent something. But personally I think it's too little. But maybe we should have a general discussion, not PSWC specific, on that topic. But then again, there's more action going on in the race topics than in the rules topics at this moment in time.

/Jani
Last edited by Jani Soderhall on Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Peter Klang » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:48 am

I think it all sounds great. It will keep the race running and no delays.

PK

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Post by Flavio Badenes » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:14 am

With all the respect, I am new to slalom racing in Europe, but I have been skating long enough to have very good reasons to say that the amateurs can do 2mts and some of them even the 1,80.

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:07 am

It's a wide span among the ams, and the ones being able to run 1.80 or 2.00 clean at Troca should probably consider moving up.

From what I've understood the pro/am thing was introduced to let less experienced racers in to the slalom scene. By making the courses equally hard we kind of close that door. Depending of what the purpose of the race is (spread the slalom wibe and let everyone participate OR have a high level competition) you should probably keep it simple for the ams OR consider having only one class, running one course. Also remember that the juniors run the am course as it is today.

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Post by Flavio Badenes » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:55 pm

Ok, I do see your point Marcus. maybe we could have different distances between cones for different types of events. So for example a Prime event would have x as distance between cones for the PRO´s and Y for the AMs and a World event would have X - 1 for the PRO´s and Y - 1 for the AM´s.

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Post by Peter Klang » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:34 pm

I think trocadero is steep and fast, faster then most hills, skate it first and then talk.
No bad vibes, just that we go through this every year.
1,80 for the PROS great
2,00 for the AMS bad. Very bad acually.

PK

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Post by Flavio Badenes » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:03 am

Peter Klang wrote:I think trocadero is steep and fast, faster then most hills, skate it first and then talk.
No bad vibes, just that we go through this every year.
1,80 for the PROS great
2,00 for the AMS bad. Very bad acually.

PK
Oooppss, now I am getting the idea that the Trocadero is the Signal Hill of slalom skateboarding :-)

Anyways you are right Peter let me skate there first then I can talk, I agree. I apologize I didn't mean to pry.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:49 am

flavio:
you have to put some trust into what experienced riders say
troca is fast.
we will build the ramps for this years event and these will add to the factor too.
visit the event,skate the course competitively and then you are able to give comments on the cone setting.

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:01 am

Donald Campbell wrote:we will build the ramps for this years event and these will add to the factor too.
We as in you and Herr Hinzen? Should I be scared? :D

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Post by Flavio Badenes » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:24 am

Donald Campbell wrote:flavio:
you have to put some trust into what experienced riders say
troca is fast.
we will build the ramps for this years event and these will add to the factor too.
visit the event,skate the course competitively and then you are able to give comments on the cone setting.
Don,

I agree, like I already said, I apologize, I am new to racing in Europe and I do agree I need to see what the races are like before I can say anything.

I look forward to competing in France, I think it is a great place to be at, that is if survive your ramp this weekend, of course :-)

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:28 pm

no worries marcus
paris ramps will be easy and with a nice tranny,but flavio should be concerned when he comes to the G.O.G. race.
har har har

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Post by Karl Floitgraf » Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:12 pm

I have never been to the Trocodaro before so I don't know anything about the venue and I think those people who do know the specific venue should decide for the race courses.

I've been moving my way slooooowly up the Amatuer division over the past four years. I think 2 meters is good for the open group. This is not a longboard slalom outlaw event, this is the Paris World Cup. I believe there should be challenging courses.

Open class riders can run technical courses, just not as fast as the pros.
BOSTON BAKED BEAN
HONORARY TEXAS OUTLAW

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Post by Paul Price » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:57 am

My vote is for 2 dual races, GS if there is time on the Trocodero hill. Better for racers and spectators.

I also hate false starts and people jumping the start - so favour the 5 seconds warning type start as long as it is random.

Also a .2 second penalty, going fast is easy, missing the cones is the hard part ;-)

Looking forward to seeing the crowd this year!

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Post by silvio strimer » Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:17 pm

when is the registration open ?

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