[2008] Euro Championships, Hannover, June [MAIN] Cancelled!

European Races & Results (for Major, Main and Prime level races)

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Jadranko Radovanovic
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed May 21, 2008 11:03 am

Ramon,

im shure you weighted the arguments and did the best out of this situation.

The point of loosing money is for some more important for some less. This can happen everywhere.

The point that people planed to attend the euro title contest and now they can't, that is the shit on the whole situation.

That's why i or Janis asking the BOD what they think ? For what is the BOD when there is never a reaction or statement on things that happens good or wrong ?
i find it rather sad that people who never really contribute to anything at all find the time now to start senseless discussions and questioning the decision as a whole.
Don, everyone who is a member of the ISSA has the right to put his/her feelings on things that happans in the slalom scene, you do it all the time. I don't belive that anyone is questioning the decision as a whole. And i'm shure that no one wanted to have this decision on his shouldes. Janis as an example just say what's important from his point of view, like others too. If there were no reactions from the memebers, how we want to go forward ?

/J-Rad

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Thu May 22, 2008 4:51 pm

Okay, I understand your point partially.

So then, what would you suggest we should do?

Should we cancel the championships; just say there are no Euros this year, no title should be given away? If this is the only thing, well then I wouldn't care.

tell us your ideas...

rmn
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Spoken Word!

Post by Claude Regnier » Fri May 23, 2008 12:13 am

J-Rad, All three Masrhalls have posted their thoughts, opinions and unhapiness about the situation. What more do you want them to do?

No one likes to have contests cancelled, especially last minute. Most people that attend events lose money. We don't compete just for the money so losing it for no racing really sucks.

If someone else is willing to take on the title for thier event then they should do it. as small as our little Slalom world seems to be to many people it means everything to those who compete and try to work on it's growth.

Maybe someday we won't need to worry about it but for now we need to keep as much going as possible.

I like the Idea of a fee for sanctioning and mentioned a year or so ago. That's a whole other story. It still wouldn't solve the problems with this situation as the organiser would still likely rather lose $500.00 then $5,000.00

Everytime we book a flight for a race we are taking a chance by not paying the higher price for the ticket which gives you the right to cancel. It's the cost of doing it! It's sucks but in the long run we save.

Right now airfares are through the roof even the deals are higher then regular cheap fares a couple of years ago. If we don't keep the big Title races going then the Grass Roots stuff will die.
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri May 23, 2008 10:03 am

Claude, the marshalls did a good job as i sayed before.

What ever they decide in this situation it's okay. The only thing i wanted is an opinion from the BOD and a reaction on this situation with some ideas for the future.

The most important thing for me is to clear with the defender of the Euros if he is able to compete in Amsterdam. If Janis can't defend his Title than it's not okay to hold the Euros this year. Luca said that he can't go to Amsterdam on this date, and that this is not so important. I would just clear it up with the top riders if they can or can not compete and if it's important for them to compete at the Euros or not. Euros without the best riders is not the same as euros where the best compete against each other.

I don't belive that it is a good idea that the organizers have to pay a fee to the ISSA. The Problem is the money for the most organizers if they have now to pay a fee to the ISSA than they have the money blocke somwhere on a bank account instead of using it.

There are possibilities for other systems like put the money together and distribute the money in the end of the season to the Top 10, than you can give the high statuses to the races where the price money is high. For this it will be needed to split in west- east atlantik and to have a one year ranking. Put the entry fees to around 60 Euros. The expenses for the Pro's goes down and they can compete perhaps on more races.

This is just one idea. What i want to say with this, is that it is very important to analyse what we are doing and where we want to go in the future. Inside the ISSA there are 4 stakeholder groups (Organizers, AM Skaters, PRO Skaters, ISSA-Members). I think the BOD should analyse the goals of this different groups trough a standardised questionnaire one time a year. Just talking is not enough, there is everytime the language barrier. We have the participants statistic which shows how many racers comepete, who compete, and where they compete. This numbers show us in which direction the sport is going.

For me the BOD can have the following structure. (It is the duty of the president to have his BOD-Members strukture and working plans together)

President:
Developing organisational strukture and responsibilities of the BOD-Members
Responsible for the goals of the issa
Responsible for the strategical goals over a year
Control and Help person for the ISSA BOD

Vice President:
Responsible for the goals of the issa
Responsible for the strategical goals over a year
Control and Help person for the ISSA BOD

Technical Kommissar:
Responsible for the rules
Contact Person for the organizers for technical questions (rules)
Developing of the rules and the person where to adress changes

Treasure:
secretary
person which makes official statements from the BOD

Developing Kommisar West Atlantic:
Analysing the situation
Planing and developing organisational and struktural solutions for the ISSA

Developing Kommisar East Atlantic:
Analysing the situation
Planing and developing organisational and struktural solution for the ISSA

Status Kommisar:
assistance person for the Status Marshalls
Contact Person for the organicers if they are not happy with the decision
Giving out the criterias for the Event’s
Contest developing together with the organicers


/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri May 23, 2008 11:00 am

j-rad

i mostly agree with what you say

very important is and shall remain that the issa should be a NON-PROFIT organization,also in the future.

one thing i disagree with is your statement that the euro contest and its date has to be made according to the time last years champions can attend it.


ok...here's my take....
in no other "professional" sport you would ask this question to the bod.

that shows how "professional" this thing here is right now.

reg amsterdam well they got it and they deserve it.if anybody wants to defend his title,well...there is the date...
if not bad luck

if there are complaints now referring to my statement,please take a look at "professional sports" and how things are handled there by the participants.

Jadranko Radovanovic
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri May 23, 2008 12:23 pm

Right Don,

In all professional sports they have rules regarding such situations. That's way they can handle it without big discussions.

my suggestion is just to ask those Pro's, that they have been asked and that there is a dialog with them.

As you said, there is a new date and a new location. To ask the defender is just in this special situation because he planed to defend his title. That's way i would ask the other top riders too, just to see who will or can attend and who not.

I think that everyone will and has to accept the decision of the marshalls. No discussions about that.

/J-Rad

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri May 23, 2008 12:41 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:That's way i would ask the other top riders too, just to see who will or can attend and who not.
JRad,

I think we just have to face reality here, a decision had to be taken and that was done. There were victims for sure, but it's pretty sure that there was NO WAY to find a solution with no victims. The European Status Marshalls did the best they could. Thanks!

I personally think it would have been worse to ask the top riders if they could attend or not, because once you have those details, you are actually influencing the outcome of the the event. Take this example, where with your technique we managed to find a new date and location. The riders were all asked, but still only Janis and Ramon could come, but not Dominik and Luca. Now, how do you vote?

It's probably time to close this discussion. Also, let's not make this a "blame the ISSA representatives" topic. The real problem is that the organizer couldn't live up to his committment, which is very sad. Any efforts on this topic should be spent on how to avoid similar situations in the future.


And in terms of general organisation of the ISSA, there's certainly things that can be done, if only there are volunteers to do it (how much happened when you were on the board?) but maybe this is not the right topic for such proposals. I think the ISSA is heading in the right direction, one step at a time. Nobody can give enough time to make the ISSA take two steps at a time, there are limits to everyones engagement.

/Jani

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri May 23, 2008 1:56 pm

J-Rad, did you read over my post?
Ramón Königshausen wrote: Should we cancel the championships; just say there are no Euros this year, no title should be given away? If this is the only thing, well then I wouldn't care.
I'd be fine with that. But as Jani said: let's stop discussing and look into the future.

q.e.d.

rmn
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Jadranko Radovanovic
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri May 23, 2008 3:02 pm

Ramon,

The cancalation of the championchips is your decison, there isn't a right or false decision.
I would just cancel it if the Top-Pro-racers who planed to attend the event in Hannover and can't go to Amsterdam want a cancalation. (I don't know which racers exactly. But there are no more than 10-20 Pro racers which comes in account)


Jani,
as i sayed before the decison is good and okay.

The point i mentioned is just to speak with each other. That point needn't to be taken into the decision, but there is an big differenz if i get a mail where the situation is explained behind the scene or when i have to read it on the Forum. This situation shows that the process of the statuses need to be overworked.

I'm not discussing about the decision which is done and okay for me.

I try to discuss what the role of the BOD is ? That is the big question !

I know it's a topic which a lot don't want to discuss about it. At the same time it's the most important thing for the whole scene and the future of the ISSA.

Since we have the BOD (2 years now), the issues of the BOD were not explained, no one knows how does the BOD work, even not the BOD-Members. What i tried to do when i was on the BOD was some Brainstorming, some struktural things like organigramm and decision making process. Some of the BOD-Members told me at this time it's not important to have this or that now.

I invested 20'000 swiss francs and over 800 hours to make an education in organisation the last 1,5 year. I think i learnd a lot there and if you ask me i think...

- It is important that the members of an organisation know how the organisation works.
- It is important that the members know what the goals of the organisation are.
- It is important that the members know what the method is to reach this goals.
- It is important that the members are informed about the actual standings of the projects.
- It is important that the members are managed (for those who want volunteer) trough the BOD-Members
- It is important that the organisation communicate outside the scene.
- It is important that the organisation analyse what their members want.
- It is important that the organisation is transparant in all his decisions and acts.
- It is important that the organisation has an action plan what they want to do during the year.

To be goal-oriented is very important for an organisation where the "time" the biggest problem is. The ISSA loses the time because we every time discuss about the same problems which could be dissolved with just a few organizational measure.

Who shuld be motivated to do somthing when he don't know what the goal is, when he isn't managed by one of the BOD-Members, when he doesn't know what the process is how his suggestions will be analysed/decided/and implemented from the BOD side.

An organisation is a group of People which want to reach a goal together. If an organisation has no goals, than there is no right for this organisation to exist.

For me as a Member the question about the goals gives me the answer if i want to be in this organisation or not.

I heard enough time that the ISSA goes step by step forward and in the right direction. The problem i had is just that i don't know where this direction is.

- To make an organigramm, with the departments, the duties, and to cooperate and communicate with each other, needs maximum 20 hours of work.

- To phrasing the goals for the next 5 years (including analyse the situation) can be done in 30 hours as well.

- To phrasing the goals for the current year can be done in 10 hours as well.

- To make an projektportfolio for the next 1-3 years can be done in 10 hours as well.

After 70 hours of work the ISSA is ready to go in the right direction and is ready to go more than one step forward in a year.

The big question is does we want to give ourselves an serious answer on the questions or not. Does we can and want to live with things that can change in the direction of our interests or not.

The whole organisation of the ISSA is the point why we don’t want a Status for the Over80Cones. There will be a new group of young people which will organise the Grueningen competition as a youth project next year again. The same for them without an truly organisation we step back from any statuses ans processes.

/J-Rad

Claude Regnier
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No! Sorry!

Post by Claude Regnier » Sat May 24, 2008 2:53 am

You do not cancel events because top riders can't attend. We all have priorities and schedules.

So we wouldnot have had any World Championships in this revival because some
people didn't or wouldn't go.

People that can and want to make it to events. You hold them and hope for the best.
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Sat May 24, 2008 10:08 am

Claude,

we separated the event and the title. We just spoke about cancel the title, not the event.

/J-Rad

Claude Regnier
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S

Post by Claude Regnier » Sat May 24, 2008 12:32 pm

Same diference! You don't cancel a Title Event you MOVE IT!
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon May 26, 2008 12:50 pm

Claude,

you are mixing apples with bananas.

My point was that people who decided in advance to attend a title event, which possibility is given trough the whole Status process, can't attend the event because it's moving 4 weeks before the event to another location.

I'm talking just about this special situation nothing else.
It wasn't meant in general to cancel events because some can't attend.

/J-Rad

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Post by Dominik Kowalski » Mon May 26, 2008 2:36 pm

Hey young man. YOu don't tell Claude he's mixing apples with bannanas. Show some more respect. He has way more experience than you have, and has a greater bigger picture! Wasn't your question about the role of the BOD? Anyway, as you see, this simply leads quickly to the pointless. The discusion for this thread is over, I think. In the outcome, we saved more than we lost. Now you can open a new thread, to make suggestions how to avoid such situation for future events.
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon May 26, 2008 2:48 pm

Jadranko,

I copied your general ISSA thoughts into a new topic (here), unrelated to this event specific topic.

/Jani

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