Did Kalahani Copy Radikal Or Are Both Copies?

Radikal Skateboard Trucks

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Wesley Tucker
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Did Kalahani Copy Radikal Or Are Both Copies?

Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:08 pm

I thought about asking this question on Silverfishlongboarding where I first heard of these new downhill trucks. Unfortunately, I know skaters well enough to realize that if I did I would just be accused of starting a flame war. My real intentions of just finding out something I don't know would be completely ignored in the rising din of those condemning me for asking a question. So, I'll bring it here to SS.com. There's probably a little better chance of getting a rational answer.

I'm not a downhiller and don't keep up with wide-track downhill trucks. After a long lay off I only got back into paying attention to speedboards and downhilling in the past couple of years. So I'm not sure of the lineage of how these trucks developed.

Did Radikal "copy" someone when it came out with the Talon? Is there a truck that was on the market earlier than Radikal with the same sort of geometry that was milled from billet aluminum?

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The reason I ask is I don't know if Kalahani copied the Radikal Downhill Talon to produce this truck or if Radikal and Kalahani both copied an earlier truck.

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Tod Oles
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Post by Tod Oles » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:44 pm

Wes,

I'm no expert, but all of these "reverse pivot" types of trucks seem to be efforts to
improve on the Randal design by eliminating the less than stellar QC issues Randal
has with their cast trucks...

You looking for a set of wide carve or DH trucks??
avatar by, Greg Fadell

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Post by Mike Cividino » Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:46 pm

i think thats it exactly Tod. Almost all of the Dh trucks out there are improvments on the Randal. Everyone is copying everyone else.
<a href="//www.pavel-skates.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p153 ... nquer2.gif" border="0"></a>

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:35 am

Tod Oles wrote: You looking for a set of wide carve or DH trucks??
Nah. I just saw these trucks yesterday and thought, "man, those look like Radikal copies." So I sent the link to Karr (who has a pair of Talons) and he e-mails back, "man, those are Radikal copies." Then my curious nature lead me to ask some questions.

I guess with CNC technology anyone can take anything and take a digital picture, open it and trace it for dimensions and coordinates and then translate to CNC data. VOILA! You got a copy. Change a few details like flutes on the hangars and give the metal a different finish and you've got something claiming to be original.

Oh, well. Whadda' ya' gonna do?
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Post by Eddy Martinez » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:39 am

The Kahlanis do not have a spherical bearing in them, I believe they are made for courses that are more techical. I have ridden the Talons and they have a sperical bearing and are very stable, noisy but very stable. The Fuk Trux 180s also have a spherical bearing and are also very stable at speed. NICE!!!! All of these trucks are improving DH equipment. It is all good. More toys to play with.

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Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws/Pavel Skates

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Post by Tod Oles » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:26 am

Leave it to Wes to inadvertently start a DH truck thread on SS.com ;-)

I'm loving the Radikal Talons that Cfav is graciously letting me use and race in New Mexico at the end of April....noisy, but they have that familiar accurate feeling like my Radikal slalom race trucks... Radikal has the precision baseplates (55-45-35 degree) to round out a total package too.... These things reek of quality!!

I'll post up my "virgin ditch racer" critique if and when I get home..... :-?
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:49 am

Damn, Eddy, you do keep up with the newest toys! Will you adopt me? :-)

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Post by Kevin Dunne » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:49 pm

Jonathan Harms wrote:Damn, Eddy, you do keep up with the newest toys! Will you adopt me? :-)
I can see it now: Eddy feeding JBH with a baby bottle full of tequila!

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You just don't know what was first

Post by Ramón Königshausen » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:08 pm

...this truck was first:

Image

Magun Downhill tucks developed and made in Switzerland

Edit: I think neither of them copied one truck from the other. It's just like it is with Vista and OS X. You can't really tell who came up first with which idea...

however...

rmn
Last edited by Ramón Königshausen on Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Enjoy the ride – GOG Slalom & DH Trucks

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Post by Earl Cephas » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:16 pm

Naah... these were

Variflex Connections

http://www.geocities.com/wackyboards/variflextruck.jpg

Wesley Tucker
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Re: You just don't know what was first

Post by Wesley Tucker » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:46 am

Ramón Königshausen wrote:...this truck was first:

Magun Downhill tucks developed and made in Switzerland

rmn
Ramon,

When was the Magun Downhill introduce?
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Must have been around 2003 or so....

rmn
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Post by Eddy Martinez » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:26 pm

This was posted on www.ncdsa.com back in 2001 by a skater named Sam regarding the Magun trucks .
"i'm proud to announce that magun will be able to sell his trucks NEXT WEEK! i'll post more details and photos in the vendor's corner next week.

Like I said there are so many DH truck designs out there. I like them all. Took my DH set ups with Fuk Trux out for a not so fast ride in the 40s. They held up really well. Pics to follow. Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws/Pavel Skates

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:50 pm

Okay, good old Sam Verri. :-) He's a good friend of mine by the way.
Now this definitely states that they were out first.

rmn
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Post by Keith Hollien » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:01 pm

Mark McCree started making Radikal Trucks in 1977. The first truck he made was a three bushings truck for slalom. In 1978 he made the DSX(copied to make Dragon's Claw). Mark with Mike Renick's help started making trucks again in 2002. He wanted to make new slalom trucks and a heavy duty all purpose truck(longboard, downhill, bank slalom, giant slalom). Mark and Mike Renick started with the slalom trucks and copied the old DSX truck for the Dragon's Claw(front truck) and came up with the Dragon's Tail(trailing swing arm rear) from scratch. They were released in early 2003. Then they started working on the Dragon's Talon(all purpose truck), but then helped Chris Chaput with his Downhill truck. After Mike made some trucks for Chris, they started working on the Talon's again. Mike had protos for the Talon in 2004. They were released in 2005. REMEMBER the Talon is not just a downhill truck, but an all purpose truck. The Talon's are a longboard, downhill, bank slalom, giant slalom and crusier truck depending on which baseplates and bushings you choose. Talon's have 35, 45 and 55 degree baseplates and the bushings are 75A, 80A, 85A, 90A and 95A. Talon's have spherical bearings in the hanger and baseplate, but are available with or without spherical bearings. We have bushings that can be put in place of the bearings in the hanger and baseplate. We are also going to offer 2 sizes of hangers for the Talon. Mike wanted to come up with some new trucks. In 2006 Mike came up with the new Dragon's Wing rear truck and it is ready for release next week. After we get caught up on production of all of our current products, we are going to start work on a new truck. Radikal Trucks always looking to the future.

Keith

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Re: You just don't know what was first

Post by Chris Miller » Thu May 03, 2007 12:58 am

It's just like it is with Vista and OS X. You can't really tell who came up first with which idea...

Except for the fact that OS X has been out for years and Vista is just now available. Oh yeah, and there is that other thing where Microsoft has never come up with anything on their own. All they ever do is criticize what others have developed, and then they copy it.

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Re: You just don't know what was first

Post by Ramón Königshausen » Thu May 03, 2007 9:40 am

Chris Miller wrote:It's just like it is with Vista and OS X. You can't really tell who came up first with which idea...

Except for the fact that OS X has been out for years and Vista is just now available. Oh yeah, and there is that other thing where Microsoft has never come up with anything on their own. All they ever do is criticize what others have developed, and then they copy it.

Yeah exactly! Why make things different, if there already exist good things that have been successful you can copy and/or improve?

rmn
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form follows function

Post by Martin Siegrist » Mon May 07, 2007 10:03 pm

a skateboard truck is definitely a very functional thing. so the thesis 'form follows function' might not be too far away. let's have a look at the baseplates of the trucks mentione above. i knowmost of them and they all look more or less the same. and that's all because there's an optimal shape for cnc milling. a reduced deign. radikal and magun are a bit more complicated. magun started making trucks cause randals broke at kaunertal (hotheels) and because of lacking precision. it is basically an improved copy of a ra... whatever.

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Post by Toby Warg » Mon May 07, 2007 10:26 pm

In the latest issue of Concrete Wave, on p 37, you'll find an ad from Gullwing that states that Henry Larrucea originally patented the idea of arranging the kingpin and hanger in perpendicular fashion in the early 80's, but that the idea has been copied by many since the patent expired.
True or false? I don't know. I do know that it would be hard to make a truck today without being accused of stealing ideas from others.

BTW, the Kahalani is a wonderful truck that is great both for carving and serious downhill riding! In constant development since 2001. Released to the public in 2007.

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Post by Eric Brammer » Tue May 08, 2007 7:24 am

The Gullwing 'patent' is a moot point. By the time it got into the patent office, there were three or four other truck companies using designs so similar (mechanically speaking, not, though, in turning performance), that other featrures actually were the source of a patent. One of those, I think, was that the angle of the axle in relation to the pivot was adjustable, something few others have tried to do.

1976, Speed Spring, which was based on the Spring-Equipped 1975 version.
Gullwing HPG Split Axle came out in late '76. By early '77, Radikal was doing the 3-bushing Slalom truck (man, if that truck had been made with better axles.. Whew, could've been 30 years ahead of everyone!). Variflex made the first 'wide' through-hanger truck in early '78. Randal strated toying with a more laid-back geometry type in mid-'78.This wasn't reborn until the early 90's. There's a few others, one Slalom-specific truck I'd seen on a few european decks in the late 80's that I never got the name of. Before Magnun made their Dh truck, Moe racing was doing custom trucks for Luging, and Roger Hickey had a bit to do with a split-axle version that used internal bearings to keep things rolling at speed.And now we have several near-Randal types (including Gullwing, again), plus 10mm axled Bears (Jim Z trucks), and the Talon! It's nice to see that the idea is being steadily improved upon in more than one or two disciplines. Slalom and DH should both take note of what's working in the other cousin-sport, as they're similar enough, and at this time, the quickest evolving segment of Skateboarding.
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Re: Did Kalahani Copy Radikal Or Are Both Copies?

Post by Peter Scheerer » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:46 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote:Image

Image

The reason I ask is I don't know if Kalahani copied the Radikal Downhill Talon to produce this truck or if Radikal and Kalahani both copied an earlier truck.
maybe this

Image

in comparsion to a radical a kahalani is much more lower and lighter.

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Post by Robert Gaisek » Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:41 pm

....or maybe this
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...or this
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Michael Peck
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Talons

Post by Michael Peck » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:16 pm

Regardless of the history.....the Talons seem to be......in their own league.
Non-precision trucks don't compare.
The bearings are in there for a reason.
Those things.............TURN!

AND.....they can be configured to be quite stable.
A little taller than average.....but that can be.....a good thing.

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Post by Michael Stride » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:08 pm

Well as a VERY satisfied customer of the Kahalanis I can say that on downhill trucks the need for sperichal bearings in the hangar is minimal. Many people say the Maguns are twicthy, but using a very nicely made cnc'd truck such as a Kahalani makes sense. They have the nice touches (inbuilt speed ring on the hangar face, standard inverted kingpin, regular bushings, 8mm axles....etc) but also look great and are relatively light.s

I cant quite see the real need for spherical beari onngs in both hangar and pivot as what worries me is that unweighted the pivot is not load bearing, but as soon as you stand on the board the kingpin will maybe flex and the pivot is in effect in free space....I feel a simple , but well made pivot like the Kahalani make s more sense as soon as a load is applied?

Hope that makes sense. Id be interested in other peoples views.


I threw thes on a Wefunk dropthrough and even though these are relatively low trucks they still work fine as drop throughs, and the turn nicely.

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Post by Michael Peck » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:25 pm

Haven't tried the Kahas yet, but a lot of speedsters love them.
Same thing with Smokies.

I have 3 metal bearings on my Talons, and a PVC rear pivot.
Works great on my flushcut dropdeck.
Perfect height.

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Post by Ulf Haag » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:27 pm

... or maybe this is the
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Post by Steve Collins » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:27 am

Ulf, that's an amazing find. Thanks for posting it. Do you have any more information about that truck?

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Post by Ulf Haag » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:44 pm

Steve Collins wrote:Ulf, that's an amazing find. Thanks for posting it. Do you have any more information about that truck?
Hi Steve,

I found the picture in a blog, it's a longboarder on a skate trip in Australia who writes it. http://lifewithalongboard.blogg.se/
The picture is from Hopkins skate shop in Sidney, no more info about the truck though.
Maybe Jackson Shapiera knows more about it?

//Ulf

Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:48 pm

All I can say for certain is you can tell that whatever that truck is it wasn't skated much if at all. Those stamped-metal trucks would last about a month before every pivot, joint and weld started to melt away. I must have skated through three sets of the old Bahne Trucks. They always just withered right at the pivot point. Those black-rubber grommets for pivot cups were just worthless. They'd turn to mush about as quickly as you could get the board home from the store.
Image

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Fosho

Post by Ulf Haag » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:02 pm

For sure they're crap.
But the idea behind them is the same as in all the new "high tech" Radikal's or Kaha's.... Mecatron, Randall, Gullwing...copies

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Post by Steve Collins » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:53 pm

Thanks Ulf. Sure wish I could read Swedish!

Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:25 pm

Steve Collins wrote:Thanks Ulf. Sure wish I could read Swedish!
Swedish is easy:

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/Fun/S ... hicken.mpg
Image

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