Number of wheels limit?

[Pat Chewning]

The ISSA has formulated a decision on the use of 6-wheel skateboards:

viewtopic.php?t=3715


The vote was 5 FOR, 0 AGAINST

-- Pat

[Justin Pannulla]

Well said.

[Eddy Martinez]

I to am making one myself as well. Just out of curiosity. How can I put something down, if I myself haven't tried it. This reminds me of the Del Mar contest back in the 70s. The Z-Boys introduced their type of low to the ground, sharp turning style. They did not ride like stick men all rigid. If you look at the documentary, several freestyle skaters are nodding their heads. They could not accept that the times were changing. Glenn Friedman says in the documentary that when T A pulled off the frontside arial off in the Dogbowl, it changed skateboarding forever. Evolution had taken place, after that point it could not be stopped. Is Chris going to win every race he enters? None of us know the future. You can boycott all the contest you want because of a 6 wheeler. I am all about promoting our sport. Our sport will not die, because a few individuals feel they are being cheated. I applaud some one who is different, who is willing to try a different approach. Wes Humpston had an idea when he started making the DogTown Pig boards. And what do you know they worked. No body boycotted a pool contest because some ones board was wider than theirs. We are all grown men now and have gotten a second chance to skate and compete again, I repeat we have been given a second chance. 15 minutes of fame for our sport they said, well we are still going since its resurection in 2001. We may be getting older, maybe not as fast. Could it be that some racers are smarter?. I plan to enjoy this year of slalom, bumb knee and all. And when I can't skateboard no longer I will continue to promote our sport. Your Amigo Eddy Texas Outlaws.

[Chris Barrett]

I think even those of us who have our doubts STILL would like to own one... who wouldn't want a board with a unique approach to the traction issue.

I know I'm making one, granted I'm not a veteran like you guys so it really isn't my place to comment. I have no qualms with trying something I haven't before, and would even like to try it in a competitive enviroment.

[Troy Smart]

I think it's safe to say that the idea behind Chaputs 6 wheeler was to gain more traction.
I also think it's safe to say that it does have more traction than a 4 wheeler.

I also think it's safe to say that it's not a very nimble setup.

I also think that it would probably be the bomb for a high speed GS but not so much for something tighter.

I also think that someday the earth will swallow us all in it's huge gaping maw.

But that's all beside the point.

The point is: Is it a skateboard? I vote yes.

In fact I would love to see these at races and am going to make one because I think it does, definately, have an advantage on certian courses.
The advantage of traction (probably) and more speed due to it's weight.

Imagine maching down a huge high speed GS on your 38" beast of a board sporting 6 Avilas getting more speed and traction than is possible on any 4 wheeler.
Imagine that my friends.

[Bradley Elfman]

Vinzzz, I am not the Jackman, I am the elfman.

I originally asked Chris some technical questions on ncdsa and then just started thinking about the technical issues, and i'm sure i was a better physicis when i was doing those kinds of things than i am a slalom racer in fact, it's a little premature to use the word racer.

As a beginner in this sport, I have nothing to contribute regarding what should or should not be allowed in formal competitions, but would hope stuff can be tried in informal competitions, esp with experienced racers, just so we can see what happens.


Although I am a beginner slalomer, I have some sense of how the rear likes to slide out when the speed picks up, both in simple straight slalom and with significant technical challenges. After thinking about this a lot, and about coefficient of friction experiments we did in lab, there's no getting around that more wheels means less traction per wheel. whether the configuration of two trucks and four wheels adds something would have to be determined by an experienced slalom racer setting up two identical boards with different wheel configurations and runnng the same course several times with a camera person documenting the runs. this can be simulated by putting wheels on a crate or chest and pushing it about.

Carl's question regarding how the setup affects pumping is interesting, but there are just too many variables to say that adding a truck and wheels will help pumping. on the surface, it would hurt, since the extra truck and wheels would absorb energy.

on the other hand, the resistance to turning based on the rotatinal inertia (angular momentum of the wheels) would be increased due to the addition of two rotating wheels. so you have more resistance to turning without slippage, so again you are stuck with a sliding situation, based on standard physical considerations.

I know there is at least one other physicist out there and a number of engineers who may have completely different take on this.

I have just switched from avalons to hot spots, and i think the narrower hot spots feel like they have more traction, but that is probably my imagination.

i recall asking some time ago on this forum why the offsets worked so well in the rear, but did not get a useful answer. anyone?

as a beginner who has yet to race, i am more like an educated outside observer, and i find it surprising that such a simple playful experiment in an informal setting has gotten such a heated response, esp. since the best racers win no matter what they're riding, say like a plank and old trucks, and that no one is rushing to add wheels and trucks to their boards.

and now ron is in the less than 4 wheel class and Claude is riding on one foot which i'm sure is against all regulations.

we need someone with a few pounds and some slalom mojo to take the 6-wheeled test, so we get real data. let's see how many wheels marty brings to dublin.

[Jani Soderhall]

PS Brad: what happened to your name? No name or are you my friend Jackman? You should use your complete real name on this forum. That's the rule

Brad, send me an email (jani@slalomskateboarder DOT com) with your full name and I'll update your profile. (Can't be done by the member himself).

/Jani

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

Until we have no international rules,
in Switzerland will be allowed to participate with a 6-wheeler and the qualifying times will determine your ranking.

/J-Rad

[Claude Regnier]

Each race organiser needs to say whether or not it's allowed or not at the time of posting it's event.

This way the racer knows whether or not he wants to attend if it's a GS that allows 6 wheels then at least you have a choice. I'm just not interested in running 6 wheels. So I'll attend events that either seperate them or won't allow them. If I change my mind that's my choice as well.

I am totally behind finding a better way to make things work. Just look at wedging on decks now. Look back to La Costa in '01.

We just need a decision made.

[Tom Thompson]

Marty, bring your six wheeler to Dublin....I gotta see what all this fuss is about.

[Marty Schaub]

We are not debating scooters or roller skates here. We are discussing a four wheeled board versus a six wheeled board.

What is everyone, the detractors that is, so afraid of? I just don't get the negativity to innovation and change. If all of the guys riding clay wheels had felt that way about urethane, where would skate evolution be?

Remember they are made from oil.......

Just my two cents. Tomorrow I am laying the template to my six wheeler. I'm curious to see what all the fuss is about.

See ya'll on a hill soon, four or six? Who knows?

[Karl Floitgraf]

As far as Slalom Skateboarding is concerned, I don't care what everyone rides on a given course. If someone can beat me on roller skates or a razor scooter more power to them. I ride a skateboard with 4 wheels through a course because it's the fastest solution for me. I understand for many other sports strict equipment regulations are important to keep competition fair but the course itself should dictate what kind of equipment you use, what ever works is fine with me.

[Vincent Berruchon]

I would hope that we would encourage experimention and R & D as a means of increasing perfomance and testing the possibilites with the range and constraints of what we all know to be a skateboard, like, for example, producing a low cost effective rear truck.

Yes we should encourage experimentation, R&D and creation. Races can be a great place for some experimentations but they aren't the place to experiment all crazy stuff and mad vehicles (I talk in general, not about 6 wheelers that are not strange at all finally).

It's why we need quite precise limitations to avoid anybody claim he's got a skateboard and that he should be allowed to participate. In fact, in Paris we ever had problem with people and their strange inventions... we really don't need to lose some time arguing with them.

It's why the rules of French championships precise that a skateboard is something with four wheels. For the moment, in our little country, it's the only kind of skateboards we know. If something interesting happened with 6 wheelers, will do something about when it will be the time.

PS Brad: what happened to your name? No name or are you my friend Jackman? You should use your complete real name on this forum. That's the rule

[Ron Barbagallo]

Ron: Wouldnt that be a trike?

ahhh................it's a long story

[Mr Surly]

Brad: Interesting post. I was wondering if the 4 rear wheels added, even
the smallest amount, to the propulsion effects when pumping?
It seems that it would with the right foot placement.

Add to that, if the offset or even the wedging was different between the
rear trucks, couldnt that actually add traction?

Even a small percentage would be a huge advantage.


Ron: Wouldnt that be a trike?

[Ron Barbagallo]

soooooo..........
Does that mean I won't be able to finish on 3 wheels and still post a time?

[Bradley Elfman]

if the weight applied to the rear of your skateboard is applied vertically to 4 wheels rather than 2 wheels, each of the 4 wheels will have less traction, lateral coefficient of slding friction between wheels and pavement, than the same weight applied to 2 rear wheels, so that each of the 4 rear wheels has a greater chance of slippage than the original 2 wheels. Following this reasoning, one can see that the greatest traction would be on two narrow wheels wide enough to provide the contact and stability required by any given course.

whether the geometric setup of two rear trucks and 2 rear wheels provides some advantage can only be learned from more careful experiments, such as having running the same board with 1 and 2 rear trucks on the same course several times.

Any possible advantage of two rear trucks and 4 wheels that might be discovered could most certainly be gotten via truck and wheel modifications for the standard setup.

Anyone who has followed Chris's experiments via the speedboard forum on ncdsa and his own site at chrischaput.com can see that Chris has been experimenting for many years with skateboard and wheel design and is always the good scientist when his modifications do poorly. As Chris is an experienced and skilled downhiller, his win on a fast open course cannot be attributed to board modifications.

It is not logical to say that adding two wheels to a skateboard turns that skateboard into something else, no more, say than using $200 + trucks, urethane wheels, or foam core, carbon and fibreglass based decks.

I have not been able to find complaints regarding the advantage that sponsored racers have when they use custom boards made by their sponsor, when many other racers can't afford the Radikal trucks or to pay for a custom board. For example, Mike Maysey did not use the TS board he designed for Skaterbuilt when he won at Morro, but rather his own customized version of the board not available to other racers, with modifications to the rear to provide more stability for his rear foot.

I have found it instructive that on ncdsa and now on this site, that the discussion/response to the 6-wheeled slalom board experiment is on what is fair, what is allowed or what is a skateboard, rather than on the questions of stability and traction during turns at speed which was the point of the experiment.

I would hope that we would encourage experimention and R & D as a means of increasing perfomance and testing the possibilites with the range and constraints of what we all know to be a skateboard, like, for example, producing a low cost effective rear truck.

[Claude Regnier]

Only if you are down to one leg.

Like Handstand Slalom it's a separate category.

[alavoine jean paul]

Will riding on one foot be allowed as well next year ???

[Vincent Berruchon]

The only question we need to answer is whether a skateboard with 6 wheels is still a skateboard. To me it seems so. And if it is, why separate it into a different class? If it is better then we should all be doing it!
/Jani

Nobody would affirm that it's not a skateboard. Of course it's a kind of skateboard.
But the fact is that traction, stability and many aspects of the ride can be affected by having six wheels (=6 points of contact with the floor) instead of four.

We need to have flexible but precise rules.
Don't like much comparison with other sports but just think about car racing for example.
F1 won't race with Indy car or rally cars. They are all cars but each race class have is vehicle specifications and limitations.


The french championships rules are precise: 4 wheels.

We want to race against racers. Not "Super" skateboard against one other "Ultra" skateboard.
Personnaly I'm not really interested by GEAR RACES
I want some RACERS RACES!
Of course equipment will ever be important. But it's normal to have rules saying what we should use. Everybody knows the rule and has to use comparable stuff. It's fair and we can race with more fun.

It's great to search new way to ride. Chris and others should continue.
But if you allow 6 wheels in the existing skateboard races, what will you forbid? Snakeboards, T-boards, overboards...
In fact I think that 6 wheels with normal skate trucks aren't a real problem.. but the problem is all the rest that will arrive if you allow that.

Some other races can exist with unlimited skateboards and strange things. The big circus!

but for the moment if everybody still have enough fun with old-fashioned 4 wheels skateboards, let's continue to race with them.

[Jani Soderhall]

There's a long winding discussion going on at NCDSA on this topic:

...most of us agree that attaching oneself to the board is not what we want in Slalom Skateboarding. Rollerskates, skyhooks, straps, bindings, velcro, magnets, and other fastening devices shouldn't be allowed. We have the idea that a board can be stepped (or jumped) onto and pushed, and that we can also step or jump off of it. In other gravity racing such as streeluge, the rules make sure that the rider is not "enclosed" in any way. Similarly, our rules may define a toe stop as a something that can overhang the shoe (can't go past vertical). We'd probably want to limit them to one per board, and positioned in front of the front foot. Otherwise you could pinch one in the middle between your feet, or put one on each end and still get the skyhook effect. Trust me when I say that I have no plans for using a toe stop for anything other than a foot registering device, but if someone did want to attach himself to his board, rules against it should be in place.

To me, the spirit of a skateboard exists in:

* A platform with wheels.
* Steered only by leaning (tilting) the platform.
* Stood upon with the bottom of at least one foot.
* Without being attached or bound in any way.
* Where gravity and making by a series of turns (pumping) are the only forms of propulsion allowed (no motors, rubberbands, kick wheels, sails, kites, etc).

These are basic concepts and I didn't include all of the necessary fine print. If a Dirtsurfer, Flowlab, Tierney, Carveboard, or other board that fits these restraints can make the course, I say go for it.

[Ramón Königshausen]

Oh no, please don't!
Just imagine the possibilities!
Shall I ride 2 or one Offset Truck in the rear? Shall I put it on the inside or at the end of my deck? How much wedging on which truck? Wheels? Cambrias in the front, then Avalons and Avilas at last?
Which truck shall I ride tighter, which one shall I loose a little?



rmn

[Donald Campbell]

that's the point,jani...
only time will tell and the experience won by different people giving 6-wheelers a try.

[Jani Soderhall]

The only question we need to answer is whether a skateboard with 6 wheels is still a skateboard. To me it seems so. And if it is, why separate it into a different class? If it is better then we should all be doing it!

/Jani

[Wesley Tucker]

It is possible he's just doing this to sell more wheels.

Well, Dan Gesmer and Chicken might sell more wheels. Oh, wait, I keep forgetting: traction isn't a real issue with Avalons and Manxs.

[Karl Floitgraf]

It is possible he's just doing this to sell more wheels. Imagine how many you'd sell if everyone put 2 extra wheels on each deck?


Or it really makes him faster.

All Possible.

[Mr Surly]

Well, I may be a complete slalom newbie, but I am aware of a few things.

I tend to agree with Claude's comments here. There is a common thread
in all racing, be it land, air, or sea. The advancement of equipment always
leads to dividing into seperate classes. Some may call Chaput's 6-wheeler
a bastardized skateboard, but hey. . . so what. The guy stands up, he's
not strapped in, and he's on urethane = sounds like a skateboard to me.

As I have a general interest being an engineer myself, I'd love to read
more comments on this subject. Is it taking it to the next level? Or just
another instance of hacking something to make it your own? Should
skateboards only have 4 wheels, so that we can defeat the classist systems
from within? Could'nt help that last one.

[Claude Regnier]

If we find that there is a distinct advantage (judging from the Pump Station Results, there likely is) then we have to in the very least consider a seperate race class.

I'm sure Chris will understand as he is a downhill competitor and you don't put Luge and Stand Up together for a reason.

Jani can you forward me a copy if it is on a computer?

Tks.

[Donald Campbell]

dearest wesley

i am so sorry that i maybe angered you with my unqualified remarks and observations.
i will try to act different in the next life i have,maybe.

[Ramón Königshausen]

I tried out a 6-wheeler. I don't think that there's something real special about.
Unfortunately there's just too much snow laying around here to test it really out...damned.

Let's observe to what it will turn out...


rmn

[Wesley Tucker]

let him come to a real race and see how he fares with his 6 wheels.i bet that there won't be a surprise.

Donald,

Chaput won a giant slalom race at the Pump Station Road. The course was fast, wide open and "giant" in every sense of the word. His competition included Brent Kosick, Mike Maysey, John Corning, David Hackett, Lynn Kramer, Michael Kaelon, Tim Kienitz, Tiger Williams and David Rogers in the top 10. There was a 5-second spread in finishing times between 1st and 10th.
Your inference is the win was "unreal." What is a "real" race and why you can just discount Chris' win as being somehow "not real?"

[Donald Campbell]

back in the days there was a guy whose name was lonnie toft.he never did anything really spectacular besides having boards that had fur on top instead of griptape or riding a board with 4 trucks mounted to it-the famous 8-wheeler.well he was a skateboarder.
chaputs thing is getting way too much attention.let him come to a real race and see how he fares with his 6 wheels.i bet that there won't be a surprise.

[Jani Soderhall]

I'm just reading through the newest proposal for rules used in French competitions and noticed that it clearly says that a skateboard must have 4 wheels. With Chris Chaput's attempt at six wheelers is it really important to keep this rule?

Isn't there another way we can define the skateboard (to make sure it still stays skateboard).

/Jani