Decks with kicktails-wedging

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Dan Mitchell
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Decks with kicktails-wedging

Post by Dan Mitchell » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:15 am

Just curious.

Slalom decks with kicktails seem to require huge amounts of wedge risers on the rear. Why not just make the tail a wedge (flat on the bottom) and use less wedge risers?
Dan Mitchell, aka PA Dan

Justin Readings
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Post by Justin Readings » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:46 am

I used to ride the foam but it can feel wierd and the foam is not that steep.

Huge dewedge is not really a big problem to most.

Carsten Pingel
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Post by Carsten Pingel » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:43 am

we should open an own "kicktail section" at slalomskateboarder.com?
There are so many almost different kicktail slalom boards on the market right now! :-)
And it would be nice to see the evolution of the kicktailbord ? Post your kicktail slalom board pictures!

Jonathan Harms
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:20 pm

Dan, you mean like this?

Image

Paul Graf and I have done this on the last two boards we've made for exactly the reason you mention--I hate having to stack up two (or three!) wedges and use 3" or longer bolts just to get the back truck flat or dewedged.

On ours, the wedge is made of balsa wood. Foam or other wood would work also. We also put birch plywood blocks in the truck-mounting areas so you don't have to worry about the bolts pulling through the foam.

The problem with making an integrated wedge, at least on a foam-core board, is getting the contours right so it blends in with the angle of the edge of the foam. It's harder than you might think. We've talked about just making a flat board and then laminating a wedge on later, which would also work, but if you use fabric to make a bottom graphic on the board, the wedge won't be covered by it, so it won't look as nice. (Then again, I guess you could use the same fabric on the wedge itself during the second step.)

"Real" board companies could obviously do what PG and I have done, but again, it adds time and material expense to the process. Then again, those companies are run by some pretty clever and resourceful guys, so maybe they could add such a feature, even to their wood boards, without a huge increase in price.

Bottom line, though: you're right, it is a pretty cool idea. :-)

(See also http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/f ... hp?t=42509)

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:41 pm

I asked the same question once (I believe is was in the Axe forum) wondering why the kicktails weren't done similar to what Makaha and Sims did 33 years ago?

I never did get an answer.

i just assumed the process for pressing and stamping laminated plys was one thing but shaping, adding and gluing a wedge kick tail rised was something else.

Could be one of those things were a simple alteration doubles the prices (well, not exactly but you get the idea.)
Image

Pelle Gustafsson
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Post by Pelle Gustafsson » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:00 pm

what board is that???










Jonathan Harms wrote:Dan, you mean like this? Image

Paul Graf and I have done this on the last two boards we've made for exactly the reason you mention--I hate having to stack up two (or three!) wedges and use 3" or longer bolts just to get the back truck flat or dewedged.

On ours, the wedge is made of balsa wood. Foam or other wood would work also. We also put birch plywood blocks in the truck-mounting areas so you don't have to worry about the bolts pulling through the foam.

The problem with making an integrated wedge, at least on a foam-core board, is getting the contours right so it blends in with the angle of the edge of the foam. It's harder than you might think. We've talked about just making a flat board and then laminating a wedge on later, which would also work, but if you use fabric to make a bottom graphic on the board, the wedge won't be covered by it, so it won't look as nice. (Then again, I guess you could use the same fabric on the wedge itself during the second step.)

"Real" board companies could obviously do what PG and I have done, but again, it adds time and material expense to the process. Then again, those companies are run by some pretty clever and resourceful guys, so maybe they could add such a feature, even to their wood boards, without a huge increase in price.

Bottom line, though: you're right, it is a pretty cool idea. :-)

(See also http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/f ... hp?t=42509)
Last edited by Pelle Gustafsson on Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dan Mitchell » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:34 pm

Dan, you mean like this?
That's exactly what I mean. It just seems silly to have huge double or triple stacked wedge risers.
The problem with making an integrated wedge, at least on a foam-core board, is getting the contours right so it blends in with the angle of the edge of the foam. It's harder than you might think.
Thanks for explaining, JH.
Dan Mitchell, aka PA Dan

Wesley Tucker
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Post by Wesley Tucker » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:45 pm

Pelle,

Jonathan Harms in St. Louis and Paul Graf in Illinois (just a few miles away) make their own foam-core boards. I think they do the work in Paul's basement. They have the glass, the resin, foam and the vacuum bagger. I'm not sure if they insert a wood layer or not.

I know JBH had one that he rode all through 2006 and may still be riding that was great. It had as much flex in it as any board I've seen yet was not mushy or soft. It SNAPPED on it return and had just an awesome feel to it.

And not to open any old wounds or start something but this is why JBH is not riding for Pavel. He's doing so well on his own ideas he didn't want to stop and take up with another product. Quite honestly if the time comes I can't get anymore Icks, I'd talk to JBH and Paul about a custom to suit me before I'd go to any other manufacturer. It's really that good.

So far he's made a pretty good decision. As you know he won the Giant Slalom in Ohio against the field.
Image

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Post by Jonathan Harms » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:09 am

This one--which I rode in competition for the first time at the Buckeye Open a few weeks ago--made by me and my friend Paul Graf in his basement. It's about 32" long by 8.5" wide (81.3 cm by 21.6 cm). The wheelbases range from about 18.5" (looooong nose) to 21.5" (47 cm to 53.3 cm), so I thnk I can ride it for both hybrid/special and GS. It's a foam core, with some wood, triaxial fiberglass, carbon fiber, three rattlesnake teeth and the ground-up bones of seven baby...oops, almost gave away the secret. :-)

Image

Edit: Aw, crap, must've been typing my reply the same time as Wesley.

Gary Saenz
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Post by Gary Saenz » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:02 pm

Multiple wedges and bending hardware to make it fit always bothered me. I had Brian at Feral Arts make this deck for me. It's a rocker foamie with no kicktail. He built a wedge out of wood and foam and it is bolted to the deck. This one you have to mount with the truck screws coming up from the bottom to hold the tail on (there are threaded inserts in the wedge). My next one the truck will bolt on to the flat deck normally and then the tail wedge will bolt on over top of the truck mounting hardware (3 screws coming up from the bottom to hold the wedge on).

Image

Tony Peters
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Post by Tony Peters » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:53 am

Sorry I just don't see how that is any better than my Fullbag HS...that looks goofy. Yes I have to use a wedge even it out but it looks better than that and the kicktail is actually part of the board not an add on that can rattle/feel weird/look gheto. It looks to me like a weird way to fix a problem that was fixed a long time ago
turns are fun....

Eric Brammer
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Kicktailed mounting

Post by Eric Brammer » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:48 am

Tony, if you've looked at a kicktailed slalom board's rear hardware after Schwippy has been on it an hour, you'd absolutely LOVE Gary's fix!! I've seen Stainless 5mm bolts come back out of the rearmost holes with double S bends in them. It ain't pretty, and it's an accident awaiting a bad moment to occur.

Kicktailed slalom decks aren't a fad, and aren't likely to fade away real soon. I've got a 'fix' in how the rear wedge kit is mounted between the board and truck, but haven't had the time to mill it, nor make molds for it (which would be far better than one-off milling in terms of cost). At this point in time, I don't see that I could get my solution to a vendor before next spring, which may be too late.

Nonetheless, the hardware bending issue is one racers will have to get a grip on.

Meanwhile, I'd encourage everyone to double-check those rear truck mounting bolts before any fast riding. Imagine snapping those on, say, Turri Road at 36 mph...
"Surfin' these Old Hills since back in The Day"

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Post by Gary Saenz » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:55 pm

I like to think of it as "Ghetto Fabulous". I don't actually see the tail when I am riding so it doesn't matter to me how it looks. One cool thing about using a wedge like this for a kicktail is that as a manufacturer you'd be able to have several different boards with one mold. Take it off and it's a flat, nonkick deck. Make wedges of 10 degrees and 20 degrees and you have different decks. Some people would mount the foam tails at an angle on the tail and you could do basically the same with this by making one corner of the tail higher than the other.

I will change this soon to attach to the deck itself and mount the truck normally.

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Add-On kicktails on a straight tailed deck

Post by Paul Howard » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:39 pm

Yes, I COMPLETELY agree with every reason stated for having the kicktail added-on in a wedge form onto a straight tailed deck(which can be concave) as opposed to a laminated/bent kicktail. Solid, secure, safer, less squish and torsional twist to the rear truck mounting bolts, etc. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Schlater- Paul
I just dig slalom!

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Post by Chris Favero » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:27 pm

good thread.if you look at JBH/Graf boards,they are definetly different construction than the Feral arts board with a common goal.With the our Oles model,we drilled the holes for the rear truck so you dont have to bend them though the riser pads.The fact that is is Kicked is a huge part of our design,because it is actually an "S" camber,not merely a kick.Could there be a better way of wedging the truck?prolly.I think there is a lot of discussion left here.cf
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Kicktail discussion

Post by Sam Gordon » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:25 pm

Having a little bit of deja-vu with this thread. Rewind a few years to this:

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... highlight=

Image

Goes back to the days before Sk8Kings, Pavel and PP foamkits.

Well, just!

Peter Scheerer
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Post by Peter Scheerer » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:07 pm

Jonathan Harms wrote:Dan, you mean like this?

Image
This is a very good looking idea.

But the sloped-screw-problem isn't cleared yet. (?)

Did anybody tried to work with some inserts, like on snowboards?
(loctite recommended)

Jonathan Harms
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:38 pm

Peter Scheerer wrote:But the sloped-screw-problem isn't cleared yet. (?)
Ah, but it is. You can't tell from the photos, but the holes in the wedge are drilled just a bit larger than the bolt heads. So the heads of the bolts go through the wedge and rest against the birch block--just like on a flat deck.

Now, I usually ride a Radikal rear truck, which I dewedge about 10 degrees, so the bolts are at an angle after all--but only 10 degrees, not 25 or 30--so my bolts don't have to bend. (And I actually drilled them at about five degrees of dewedge.) If I ride a Seismic rear, as I did in Ohio, no further dewedging is necessary.

Another very elegant solution to all this kicktail business is to simply buy a GOG rear truck. Frank and Donald have really come up with a winner there. Sure, it costs a bit more, as does a Radikal or other precision truck, but it really works.

Martin Drayton
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Post by Martin Drayton » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:53 pm

Peter Scheerer wrote:
Did anybody tried to work with some inserts, like on snowboards?
(loctite recommended)
Hi Peter,

A British company, Gecko, have gone the insert route with their decks. Not inserts to be screwed into as on a snowboard, but columns of nylon material through which they drill. The advantage it gives you is:
-no water ingress at the holes.
-the bolts will compress into the nylon and not damage the top layer of the deck.
-the holes for the rear truck are drilled vertically.
They are about to launch a new deck next weekend with an additional feature inspired by JBH and Paul Graf - thanks guys!
Last edited by Martin Drayton on Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Martin Drayton
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Gecko with tail wedge...

Post by Martin Drayton » Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:02 pm

This weekend saw the first appearance of the final pre-production version of the Gecko Superlight Slalom Deck. It sports the first tail wedge on a production board.
Image
The wedge also contains inserts of nylon so that you can tighten down your hardware, get it flush and not damage the deck.
Image
I think it came out pretty well!
Image
Image
Hope you like it!
Image

(Full specs, pics and details of the board will appear in a few days on the Gecko forum).

Jonathan Harms
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Post by Jonathan Harms » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:16 pm

Looks nice, Martin, especially considering the contours the fabric has to conform to. 'Tain't easy to get a wrinkle-free finish.

By the way, what does the writing say on that little gray rectangle on the wedge?

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Post by Robert Gaisek » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:20 pm

" rear truck here"
Sorry...I´m just stupid. A fantastic looking board! What was the price again?
Image

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If you can read this, you're too close!"

Post by Martin Drayton » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:59 pm

Its just serial nos.so that Gecko can keep tabs on all their products (BIG helmet company too!)

Robert - Info soon on the Gecko page...See you in Gothenburg!

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Post by Gary Saenz » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:26 am

Martin, that is a deck I can get excited about. Bravo for Gecko!

Eric Brammer
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Tails, wedges, and contours...

Post by Eric Brammer » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:11 am

Martin, have you been somehow sneakin' a peek over my shoulder while I've been doodling in my scrapbook?! 'Cause it's gettin' freaky at times...
But then again, Volvo did make the 760 only 6 years after my first drawing of it.
Gotta find those hidden cameras.... ;-)

Gecko looks to be doing stuff I've been hoping would happen, and doing it well!
"Surfin' these Old Hills since back in The Day"

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Re: Tails, wedges, and contours...

Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:13 pm

Eric Brammer wrote:Martin, have you been somehow sneakin' a peek over my shoulder while I've been doodling in my scrapbook?! 'Cause it's gettin' freaky at times...
But then again, Volvo did make the 760 only 6 years after my first drawing of it.
Gotta find those hidden cameras.... ;-)

Gecko looks to be doing stuff I've been hoping would happen, and doing it well!
Seen the last 2 Bourne films?....."You look tired..." & "She's standing right next to you..."

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