[2008] Euro Championships, Hannover, June [MAIN] Cancelled!

European Races & Results (for Major, Main and Prime level races)

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon May 26, 2008 2:48 pm

Jadranko,

I copied your general ISSA thoughts into a new topic (here), unrelated to this event specific topic.

/Jani

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Post by Dominik Kowalski » Mon May 26, 2008 2:36 pm

Hey young man. YOu don't tell Claude he's mixing apples with bannanas. Show some more respect. He has way more experience than you have, and has a greater bigger picture! Wasn't your question about the role of the BOD? Anyway, as you see, this simply leads quickly to the pointless. The discusion for this thread is over, I think. In the outcome, we saved more than we lost. Now you can open a new thread, to make suggestions how to avoid such situation for future events.
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon May 26, 2008 12:50 pm

Claude,

you are mixing apples with bananas.

My point was that people who decided in advance to attend a title event, which possibility is given trough the whole Status process, can't attend the event because it's moving 4 weeks before the event to another location.

I'm talking just about this special situation nothing else.
It wasn't meant in general to cancel events because some can't attend.

/J-Rad

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Post by Claude Regnier » Sat May 24, 2008 12:32 pm

Same diference! You don't cancel a Title Event you MOVE IT!
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Sat May 24, 2008 10:08 am

Claude,

we separated the event and the title. We just spoke about cancel the title, not the event.

/J-Rad

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No! Sorry!

Post by Claude Regnier » Sat May 24, 2008 2:53 am

You do not cancel events because top riders can't attend. We all have priorities and schedules.

So we wouldnot have had any World Championships in this revival because some
people didn't or wouldn't go.

People that can and want to make it to events. You hold them and hope for the best.
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri May 23, 2008 3:02 pm

Ramon,

The cancalation of the championchips is your decison, there isn't a right or false decision.
I would just cancel it if the Top-Pro-racers who planed to attend the event in Hannover and can't go to Amsterdam want a cancalation. (I don't know which racers exactly. But there are no more than 10-20 Pro racers which comes in account)


Jani,
as i sayed before the decison is good and okay.

The point i mentioned is just to speak with each other. That point needn't to be taken into the decision, but there is an big differenz if i get a mail where the situation is explained behind the scene or when i have to read it on the Forum. This situation shows that the process of the statuses need to be overworked.

I'm not discussing about the decision which is done and okay for me.

I try to discuss what the role of the BOD is ? That is the big question !

I know it's a topic which a lot don't want to discuss about it. At the same time it's the most important thing for the whole scene and the future of the ISSA.

Since we have the BOD (2 years now), the issues of the BOD were not explained, no one knows how does the BOD work, even not the BOD-Members. What i tried to do when i was on the BOD was some Brainstorming, some struktural things like organigramm and decision making process. Some of the BOD-Members told me at this time it's not important to have this or that now.

I invested 20'000 swiss francs and over 800 hours to make an education in organisation the last 1,5 year. I think i learnd a lot there and if you ask me i think...

- It is important that the members of an organisation know how the organisation works.
- It is important that the members know what the goals of the organisation are.
- It is important that the members know what the method is to reach this goals.
- It is important that the members are informed about the actual standings of the projects.
- It is important that the members are managed (for those who want volunteer) trough the BOD-Members
- It is important that the organisation communicate outside the scene.
- It is important that the organisation analyse what their members want.
- It is important that the organisation is transparant in all his decisions and acts.
- It is important that the organisation has an action plan what they want to do during the year.

To be goal-oriented is very important for an organisation where the "time" the biggest problem is. The ISSA loses the time because we every time discuss about the same problems which could be dissolved with just a few organizational measure.

Who shuld be motivated to do somthing when he don't know what the goal is, when he isn't managed by one of the BOD-Members, when he doesn't know what the process is how his suggestions will be analysed/decided/and implemented from the BOD side.

An organisation is a group of People which want to reach a goal together. If an organisation has no goals, than there is no right for this organisation to exist.

For me as a Member the question about the goals gives me the answer if i want to be in this organisation or not.

I heard enough time that the ISSA goes step by step forward and in the right direction. The problem i had is just that i don't know where this direction is.

- To make an organigramm, with the departments, the duties, and to cooperate and communicate with each other, needs maximum 20 hours of work.

- To phrasing the goals for the next 5 years (including analyse the situation) can be done in 30 hours as well.

- To phrasing the goals for the current year can be done in 10 hours as well.

- To make an projektportfolio for the next 1-3 years can be done in 10 hours as well.

After 70 hours of work the ISSA is ready to go in the right direction and is ready to go more than one step forward in a year.

The big question is does we want to give ourselves an serious answer on the questions or not. Does we can and want to live with things that can change in the direction of our interests or not.

The whole organisation of the ISSA is the point why we don’t want a Status for the Over80Cones. There will be a new group of young people which will organise the Grueningen competition as a youth project next year again. The same for them without an truly organisation we step back from any statuses ans processes.

/J-Rad

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri May 23, 2008 1:56 pm

J-Rad, did you read over my post?
Ramón Königshausen wrote: Should we cancel the championships; just say there are no Euros this year, no title should be given away? If this is the only thing, well then I wouldn't care.
I'd be fine with that. But as Jani said: let's stop discussing and look into the future.

q.e.d.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri May 23, 2008 12:41 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:That's way i would ask the other top riders too, just to see who will or can attend and who not.
JRad,

I think we just have to face reality here, a decision had to be taken and that was done. There were victims for sure, but it's pretty sure that there was NO WAY to find a solution with no victims. The European Status Marshalls did the best they could. Thanks!

I personally think it would have been worse to ask the top riders if they could attend or not, because once you have those details, you are actually influencing the outcome of the the event. Take this example, where with your technique we managed to find a new date and location. The riders were all asked, but still only Janis and Ramon could come, but not Dominik and Luca. Now, how do you vote?

It's probably time to close this discussion. Also, let's not make this a "blame the ISSA representatives" topic. The real problem is that the organizer couldn't live up to his committment, which is very sad. Any efforts on this topic should be spent on how to avoid similar situations in the future.


And in terms of general organisation of the ISSA, there's certainly things that can be done, if only there are volunteers to do it (how much happened when you were on the board?) but maybe this is not the right topic for such proposals. I think the ISSA is heading in the right direction, one step at a time. Nobody can give enough time to make the ISSA take two steps at a time, there are limits to everyones engagement.

/Jani

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri May 23, 2008 12:23 pm

Right Don,

In all professional sports they have rules regarding such situations. That's way they can handle it without big discussions.

my suggestion is just to ask those Pro's, that they have been asked and that there is a dialog with them.

As you said, there is a new date and a new location. To ask the defender is just in this special situation because he planed to defend his title. That's way i would ask the other top riders too, just to see who will or can attend and who not.

I think that everyone will and has to accept the decision of the marshalls. No discussions about that.

/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri May 23, 2008 11:00 am

j-rad

i mostly agree with what you say

very important is and shall remain that the issa should be a NON-PROFIT organization,also in the future.

one thing i disagree with is your statement that the euro contest and its date has to be made according to the time last years champions can attend it.


ok...here's my take....
in no other "professional" sport you would ask this question to the bod.

that shows how "professional" this thing here is right now.

reg amsterdam well they got it and they deserve it.if anybody wants to defend his title,well...there is the date...
if not bad luck

if there are complaints now referring to my statement,please take a look at "professional sports" and how things are handled there by the participants.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Fri May 23, 2008 10:03 am

Claude, the marshalls did a good job as i sayed before.

What ever they decide in this situation it's okay. The only thing i wanted is an opinion from the BOD and a reaction on this situation with some ideas for the future.

The most important thing for me is to clear with the defender of the Euros if he is able to compete in Amsterdam. If Janis can't defend his Title than it's not okay to hold the Euros this year. Luca said that he can't go to Amsterdam on this date, and that this is not so important. I would just clear it up with the top riders if they can or can not compete and if it's important for them to compete at the Euros or not. Euros without the best riders is not the same as euros where the best compete against each other.

I don't belive that it is a good idea that the organizers have to pay a fee to the ISSA. The Problem is the money for the most organizers if they have now to pay a fee to the ISSA than they have the money blocke somwhere on a bank account instead of using it.

There are possibilities for other systems like put the money together and distribute the money in the end of the season to the Top 10, than you can give the high statuses to the races where the price money is high. For this it will be needed to split in west- east atlantik and to have a one year ranking. Put the entry fees to around 60 Euros. The expenses for the Pro's goes down and they can compete perhaps on more races.

This is just one idea. What i want to say with this, is that it is very important to analyse what we are doing and where we want to go in the future. Inside the ISSA there are 4 stakeholder groups (Organizers, AM Skaters, PRO Skaters, ISSA-Members). I think the BOD should analyse the goals of this different groups trough a standardised questionnaire one time a year. Just talking is not enough, there is everytime the language barrier. We have the participants statistic which shows how many racers comepete, who compete, and where they compete. This numbers show us in which direction the sport is going.

For me the BOD can have the following structure. (It is the duty of the president to have his BOD-Members strukture and working plans together)

President:
Developing organisational strukture and responsibilities of the BOD-Members
Responsible for the goals of the issa
Responsible for the strategical goals over a year
Control and Help person for the ISSA BOD

Vice President:
Responsible for the goals of the issa
Responsible for the strategical goals over a year
Control and Help person for the ISSA BOD

Technical Kommissar:
Responsible for the rules
Contact Person for the organizers for technical questions (rules)
Developing of the rules and the person where to adress changes

Treasure:
secretary
person which makes official statements from the BOD

Developing Kommisar West Atlantic:
Analysing the situation
Planing and developing organisational and struktural solutions for the ISSA

Developing Kommisar East Atlantic:
Analysing the situation
Planing and developing organisational and struktural solution for the ISSA

Status Kommisar:
assistance person for the Status Marshalls
Contact Person for the organicers if they are not happy with the decision
Giving out the criterias for the Event’s
Contest developing together with the organicers


/J-Rad

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Spoken Word!

Post by Claude Regnier » Fri May 23, 2008 12:13 am

J-Rad, All three Masrhalls have posted their thoughts, opinions and unhapiness about the situation. What more do you want them to do?

No one likes to have contests cancelled, especially last minute. Most people that attend events lose money. We don't compete just for the money so losing it for no racing really sucks.

If someone else is willing to take on the title for thier event then they should do it. as small as our little Slalom world seems to be to many people it means everything to those who compete and try to work on it's growth.

Maybe someday we won't need to worry about it but for now we need to keep as much going as possible.

I like the Idea of a fee for sanctioning and mentioned a year or so ago. That's a whole other story. It still wouldn't solve the problems with this situation as the organiser would still likely rather lose $500.00 then $5,000.00

Everytime we book a flight for a race we are taking a chance by not paying the higher price for the ticket which gives you the right to cancel. It's the cost of doing it! It's sucks but in the long run we save.

Right now airfares are through the roof even the deals are higher then regular cheap fares a couple of years ago. If we don't keep the big Title races going then the Grass Roots stuff will die.
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Thu May 22, 2008 4:51 pm

Okay, I understand your point partially.

So then, what would you suggest we should do?

Should we cancel the championships; just say there are no Euros this year, no title should be given away? If this is the only thing, well then I wouldn't care.

tell us your ideas...

rmn
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed May 21, 2008 11:03 am

Ramon,

im shure you weighted the arguments and did the best out of this situation.

The point of loosing money is for some more important for some less. This can happen everywhere.

The point that people planed to attend the euro title contest and now they can't, that is the shit on the whole situation.

That's why i or Janis asking the BOD what they think ? For what is the BOD when there is never a reaction or statement on things that happens good or wrong ?
i find it rather sad that people who never really contribute to anything at all find the time now to start senseless discussions and questioning the decision as a whole.
Don, everyone who is a member of the ISSA has the right to put his/her feelings on things that happans in the slalom scene, you do it all the time. I don't belive that anyone is questioning the decision as a whole. And i'm shure that no one wanted to have this decision on his shouldes. Janis as an example just say what's important from his point of view, like others too. If there were no reactions from the memebers, how we want to go forward ?

/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue May 20, 2008 5:24 pm

inbetween races dom never leaves the house.i know there's some sharpshooters right across the street waiting for retribution!

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Post by Peter Klang » Tue May 20, 2008 3:18 pm

Dominik Kowalski wrote:i lost over 800€ as I wanted to enter the slalom competition at the paskapoo rodeo last year. Two days later, it got canceled. I never got that money back.....well, who to blame?
were did you get €800 from? please return the funds at ones.

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Post by Dominik Kowalski » Tue May 20, 2008 1:53 pm

i lost over 800€ as I wanted to enter the slalom competition at the paskapoo rodeo last year. Two days later, it got canceled. I never got that money back.....well, who to blame?
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Post by Peter Klang » Tue May 20, 2008 12:51 pm

Hello crime stoppers,
I really hope we all can put this behind us now and move forward. The decision was based on the facts presented at PWC. Given the time frame to act I think everybody should applaud the solution. I fell really badly for Luca and Janis and those whom paid there tickets and are stuck with em. However, I do belive if delaying the decision we would have put more racers in the same position. Remember, in a situation like this we are all losers.

Look at it from another stand point and we might learn something from this. I don’t feel it’s very productive to write crap about one another, or try to put blame on someone. Let’s make the best of it work together. We are one small community. If we can’t get along in our world, how can it ever be peace between the Hindus and the Muslims in Northern Ireland?

Let’s all sing we shall overcome

Yours Fastest
PK
Last edited by Peter Klang on Tue May 20, 2008 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue May 20, 2008 12:14 pm

Please note that this e-mail was sent last week during the discussion.

When we had the discussion meeting 2 weeks ago, Dominik and I had the impression that according to Detlef Hannover was very unlikely to happen. In contrast to this there was Flavio stepping up and offering a unique opportunity with his event in Amsterdam.
So under those circumstances we did not hesitate and arranged with both, Detlef and Flavio, that we will announce it on the forum on Wednesday evening. (The reason why we had to announce it asap and could not wait any longer is clear I think)

Moreover, it is to say that our experience with events and event organizers (as well as being an organizer ourselves) also played a role in making our decision.


I find it pretty unappropriate that people now start phantasizing and making proposals of how and that the event should or could have happened despite the circumstances.

We tried to present you the options that we had and we explained why we made this and not that decision. Imagine what would have happened if nobody had said a word about this and you arrived in Hannover with all your expectations (and I presume those would have been rather hight) and found disappointment...

rmn
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what can i say??

Post by Detlef Rehbock » Tue May 20, 2008 9:26 am

I don´t know, if i can post anything after this decision.

Ramons last post:
* do we want to step up for Detlef and make it happen by laying together money so he can run the event even though?

I clearly said, i will pay for the event from my own pocket, not from laying money together.
I explained everything before. what can you do without money?
After my own decision, to pay for the event, everything could happen. We had the permission and we where ready to run the competition like last year. remember? with the announced price money.

At this time i have to accept the decision of the BOD. I step back from our event, but i can´t really understand the reasons. I accept your arguments from " sports view" but can´t understand them.
At the end you stand alone, only you and your board.
Thanks to everybody, specially to christoph.
Luca and Janis, please send me pm.

I go out for a ride.

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E-Mail exchange

Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue May 20, 2008 12:00 am

Look, this is what I sent out as an e-mail to be discussed by a selection of BOD members:

Ramón Königshausen on May 15, 2008 wrote:
I'm sending you this e-mail because there is a situation we have never had before I guess.

If you followed up the discussion in the European forum you know what I'm talking about: The cancellation of the European Championships 2008 in Hannover one month before the announced date. Logically, quite a few people have already booked their flights and are now taken by surprise that they should be cancelled and moved to Amsterdam, which takes place Aug 16-17.

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... 25&start=0

Reason
The reason why we, respectively Detlef Rehbock, cancelled this event is lack of sponsors and therefore lack of money to pay the event [...]

Downgrade Event
What I had suggested him, was to run the event anyways but on low budget as a PRIME STATUS event. He wasn't eager to agree on this argument but rather wanted he to cancel the event, than to run it on low budget.

Moving it to Amsterdam
The reason why Dominik, Peter and I wanted to give the Main Status AND the European Championships to Amsterdam is because of Flavio's high effort to put up his event in Amsterdam. It is to say that the City of Amsterdam wants his Slalomskateboard Competion to be one of the three biggest sports events in the City of Amsterdam, right next to a bicycle race and the world best juniors football/soccer cup.

Arrangements
When the four of us (Detlef, Flavio, Dominik and I) discussed the situation in Paris last weekend, we arranged to be ready to announce everything on Wednesday evening. (To avoid more people to book any flights and making hotel reservations).
[...]
When I saw that many many people were confused by Donald's post and curious about what was going on, we could not wait any longer and had to make a preliminary announcement.

How to continue
Now some of the remaining questions are:

* Who is responsible for the conseqences?
* Is it possible to continue with the proposed solution (cancel Hannover, move the Euros to Amsterdam)

or

* do we want to step up for Detlef and make it happen by laying together money so he can run the event even though?



What dou you think is the best way to solve the problem?


I feel really sad about the situation and I would like to make it turn out as comfortable as possible for those who have already spent money on their trip. Furthermore, not everyone will be able to go to Amsterdam instead either, that's something we cannot have an influence on but it can't stay the way it is if we (the ISSA) want not to lose our face.



Thank you for any good input that may help clear the situation,

Ramón


PS: Please forward this e-mail to those who should receive it too or open a Topic on the Members Forum


--

So now you see what's inside. I hope this helps a little giving us clarification as well as a real discussion about such special cases can or should be openend on the members forum finally.

rmn
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Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon May 19, 2008 9:45 pm

I think it's also better to cancel an event that couldn't live up to it's "requirements". It's unfortunate, but even more money would have been lost if the event would have been held and had been poorly organized (not that no money necessarily means poorly organized).

I think the ranking marshals have done a good job dealing with this matter.

/Jani

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon May 19, 2008 9:17 pm

i was also involved in the discussion as some of you can guess.
dom wanted t hear my thoughts on this subject too,he had made his own decision at that time though.
as it seemed we pretty much had the same feelings about this unlucky affair.

as ramon said before:this decision has been made for the sport!
and i want to add also for its credibiltiy.

i find it rather sad that people who never really contribute to anything at all find the time now to start senseless discussions and questioning the decision as a whole.


there goes the credibility....


on the other side i would not want to see all the pissed people walking away from a contest that didn't live up to its expectations.
we had communication problems prior to the contest.
there were some last year too.
i remember people walking away(luca for instance) not having received the promised prize money.

just an example,make of it what you want.

so if this contest would have happened,spiced with flaws and things that went wrong,i do not want to imagine how mayn people would have complained afterwards.
now there is only a few "victims" as i see.
let's leave it like this,it's better that way.
as a german-my oppinion-i want to see a good contest held in germany.and when it is a main it has to live up to certain expectations.
i reflect the thoughts of a bigger group surrounding me
and no-i am not the guru
i'm just speaking out what the group thinks and feels.

as of now there is janis and luca who have lost money.
anybody else?


besides that,janis,you want flavio to pay for your loss?
would you care to explain what lead you to that decision?

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ISSA Sactioning Process and Cancellations

Post by Pat Chewning » Mon May 19, 2008 5:45 pm

There is a process for ISSA events to be cancelled or moved. It is the last item described in the sanctioning document. http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=4658
ISSA SANCTIONING PROCESS wrote:8. CANCELLATION AND CHANGES TO EVENTS
This formal contest sanctioning process should ensure that cancellation and changes are minimized. If a cancellation or change is needed, the Regional Contest Coordinators are empowered to make the changes.
Immediately upon becoming aware of a need for a change, the contest director should notify the appropriate Regional Contest Coordinator and make a request for a change. The Regional Contest Coordinators can decide to accept the change, grant a lower status, transfer the status to another event, or “fix” the problem in any way that does not violate the # of contest status’s assigned to that region
Unfortunately, no matter how much we polish this turd, it still smells like shit. Cancelling a contest is never satisfying to anyone.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon May 19, 2008 5:38 pm

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but did you think we did not weight every argument of this issue? (I spent half of my birthday discussing these matters)

Did you think we haven't thought about the consequences? I was feeling pretty sad for those who now have lost money or cannot make it to the Euros this year. But it is to say, that the decision was taken wisley FOR the sport.

I also came up with suggestions and questions of what we shall do towards those who are affected by this decision. So far not too many people replied or came up with useful proposals.


rmn
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon May 19, 2008 4:29 pm

Janis is right. Where are the opinions from the BOD ?

There are no points in the rules about contest marshalls. The only things are the text below and the rules of slalomranking.com with the advanced rule and so on.
Ranking marshalls: What is their job
1. To handle incoming ISSA contest sanction documents from event organizers.
Take care of incoming document. Look through it, discuss it and finally decide if ok and what status the event is granted.

2. Announce official status for each ISSA contest sanction documents
This is done by adding a post in the "ISSA Sanctions granted" forum. See current forum for 2007 http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=4674

3. Add event to the slalomranking event calendar

I understand that in this conditions the solution has to be decided very quick.

But there is no justification for any other solutions than to let the Euros be wehere it was announced. Otherwise the whole giving of Statuses is just a desk act and nothing else.

In every organisation, special situations follws the instances from bottom up.

In my understandig:

1. status marshalls (analysing and solution proposal)
2. BOD (decision)
3. members (decision)

In every discussion there are everytime some argumentation from 3 or 4 sides. I want to hear the statement of the BOD. And i want to hear what they want to learn from this situation and what the next action is to not come again in this situation.


/J-Rad

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Mon May 19, 2008 2:01 pm

Well that sucks. When I returned a ticket last year I got more than half of the money back.

You should have higher taxes :-)

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Post by Janis kuzmins » Mon May 19, 2008 1:43 pm

Marcus wrote:About the monetary issue; you do get most of the money back if you cancel a normal flight ticket. The airline will charge you a fee for handling but all the money are not gone.
In my case ticket cost 196.lats (280.eur) i will get back airport taxes only 24.lats, (35.eur), I lost 245.eur.

Pelle Gustafsson
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;(

Post by Pelle Gustafsson » Mon May 19, 2008 12:43 pm

Luca Giammarco wrote:I would like to come in Amsterdam but in this date for me it's impossible(I know this i not so important)..In any case just to inform it's impossible to change a destination of a plane ticket already paied. I 'll recover just the airport taxes (about 100 euro ) and the rest is lost(about 250 euro). Donald and Ramon thanks anyway for your offer. I'm agree with you Jani, in this way some people have lost Paris too. Ramon, i'm not critical with nobody are just the fact. Ciao
miss you in paris luca!!

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Post by Luca Giammarco » Mon May 19, 2008 12:41 pm

I would like to come in Amsterdam but in this date for me it's impossible(I know this i not so important)..In any case just to inform it's impossible to change a destination of a plane ticket already paied. I 'll recover just the airport taxes (about 100 euro ) and the rest is lost(about 250 euro). Donald and Ramon thanks anyway for your offer. I'm agree with you Jani, in this way some people have lost Paris too. Ramon, i'm not critical with nobody are just the fact. Ciao

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Post by Marcus Seyffarth » Mon May 19, 2008 12:29 pm

About the monetary issue; you do get most of the money back if you cancel a normal flight ticket. The airline will charge you a fee for handling but all the money are not gone.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon May 19, 2008 12:29 pm

janis:
i think it is very clear to you who the people are that make decisions.
peter klang
ramon königshausen
dominik kowalski

go and address your concerns directly tho the aforementioned group.

nobody else is responsible besides those 3 perons regarding status decisions, anything else is violating the rules that have been layed out so carefully over the past years.

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Post by Janis kuzmins » Mon May 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Ok, its clear who is the "captain" of this ship.
any way, people who bought a tickets dont need to pay for this games.
Somebody need to be responsible and pay back our money. Hannover or new holder of european championship Amsterdam (they get liability from Hannover). Otherway i agree that Amsterdam can get main status(logical),but not the European Championship, because some people are ready to go to euros where that was planing, but now its in a different location. Somebody need to be responsible but not the riders.
Want to get other issa people opinion.

Cat Young
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Post by Cat Young » Mon May 19, 2008 12:38 am

Now boys.........

Wasn't that easy?
:)
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Post by Riccardo Roma » Sun May 18, 2008 9:13 am

Donald Campbell wrote:LIGHTEN UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
deal

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Post by Donald Campbell » Sun May 18, 2008 9:04 am

achtung achtung
this is a message from the fun headquarters in germany to the defender of the holiest of faiths in italy.


LIGHTEN UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Riccardo Roma » Sat May 17, 2008 9:43 pm

...how to contradict you...? ;-)

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Post by Cat Young » Sat May 17, 2008 9:31 pm

Riccardo Roma wrote:
Donald Campbell wrote: luca,if you decide to come i will pay you 100 euros from my own personal purse.
we want to see you and dom is gonna kick your butt sky high to the moon.
again,for you jani,this was a joke,but i stand for my promise made to luca!
...the only promise that you are able to keep, donald, is to continue to say stupid things...
Riccardo,

Stupid things help the world to go round!!!

Oh man, that was a stupid thing to say!!
Image

Riccardo Roma
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Post by Riccardo Roma » Sat May 17, 2008 9:00 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:luca,if you decide to come i will pay you 100 euros from my own personal purse.
we want to see you and dom is gonna kick your butt sky high to the moon.
again, for you jani, this was a joke, but i stand for my promise made to luca!
...the only promise that you are able to keep, donald, is to continue to say stupid things...

Cat Young
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Post by Cat Young » Sat May 17, 2008 7:47 pm

I would like to also see that.

I have only seen old footage of Luca.
I've gotta say.... I like his style!
Image

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Fri May 16, 2008 9:04 pm

Very nice offer Donald. I'm glad I'm not the only one that wants to see this wrestling match. Please set up cameras.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri May 16, 2008 8:40 pm

dear jani
we set the courses
we brought the timing
we helped on a few other occasions
oh yes i sponsored the t-shirts too

that was last year

when there is no real communication prior to the race we expect the same thing to happen again.
dete is not in our "group" to say so,but we all thought this event was going to happen as posted with all the necessities that come along with it.it was his one man show,yes,that's right.
but we were still there to support or help if we would have had more details.

if you take your time to reread my pervious post you will also find that i do NOT want to condemn detlev and his vain efforts.sometimes these things geta bit lost in the internet.




on a side note:

luca,if you decide to come i will pay you 100 euros from my own personal purse.
we want to see you and dom is gonna kick your butt sky high to the moon.
again,for you jani,this was a joke,but i stand for my promise made to luca!

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Fri May 16, 2008 7:47 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:as you all know i also was so much into supporting the hannover race, but under these circumstances and the given recent history, i openly admit that i am so disappointed.
I'm not sure what your "support" means? I remember you posted early on that you supported his efforts. I never knew what that meant, but now that the event is cancelled I see Dete was all alone in his efforts to pull this off. Maybe the "German group" you are citing should have tried to help from the start, rather than now condemn.

/Jani

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri May 16, 2008 7:26 pm

Luca,

I will spend 10% of my prize money from Amsterdam on those who could not get back their money from Hannover.*

What exactly concering our explanation are you critisizing?

rmn

*if you can confirm this with a document.
Last edited by Ramón Königshausen on Sat May 17, 2008 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Luca Giammarco » Fri May 16, 2008 7:12 pm

hey dominique and ramon this is a nice way to make outside your adversaries! I'm joke but I'm really angry for my money (350 euro cazzo!)

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Post by Donald Campbell » Fri May 16, 2008 6:56 pm

some words...

as you all know i also was so much into supporting the hannover race,but under these circumstances and the given recent history,i openly admit that i am so disappointed.
one of my arguments for pulling the plug is also very personal and its regarding germany as a whole:if we push hannover now,we allow any future organizer to behave the same way.everybody will come back to the strange circumstances which surrounded this special race in hannover,trying to apologize for his own mistakes then.

also i want everybody outside of germany to know that the german group of skaters which is or will be involved in future races is also not willing to support this kind of attitude towards organizing races.
if we want a certain status for a race we alll want to see clear and clean decisions regarding such an event in the future,´.
as much as it may hurt right now it is better to show some strictness now instead of just doing things the other way around.

also:wouldn't it be so unfair right now to burn flavio who is stepping it up?

finally i want to say that i applaud the trio in charge for being so brave and enforcing their decisions.
they are good for the sport and its credibility

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Hannover 2008 cancelled: This is the final decision.

Post by Dominik Kowalski » Fri May 16, 2008 4:44 pm

Hannover will be canceled! Amsterdam will get Main status and the title of European Championchips!

Ramon, Peter and I discussed a lot of arguments, against and for holding the Euros in Hannover, and mostly thinking about all of you racers deserving the best.

...but therefore I want to let you know, as we (Ramon, me, Flavio and Dete) spoke together, Dete clearly said, he wanted it off his shoulders, so we dealed with that situation.
The fact that Dete told Janis and others that it will happen, is not what have heard from him, as we spoke, even what Dete says now, that he could do it, is not what he heard from him as we spoke. We asked him to do it anyway, but to us it seemed clear he didn't want it. And if he still wants it, than no euros will be held, just a prime, and who would come for that?

Dete should have come to us, way more ahead of time, and not the other way around 4 weeks before the contest, (this is the European Champiochips for God's sake!), than we could have solved it a bit different (maybe), but within this time, we needed to akt fast.

There are so many possibilities, but one doesn't apeal better than the other one.
Whatever we would have decided, there would be no chance making everyone happy with it. This is a bad situation no matter what.
So we looked after what would be the best for the sport.
European Championchips should be a big and successful event.

This is bigger and more important than for example 2 of the best European riders and their plane tickets (I'm so sorry to say that...I really really feel bad about this). Maybe if Dete is willing to pay for the event out of his own pocket, maybe he could do it for those who have already paid for their tickets (just a suggestion). Would the Worlds get moved if Janis, Luca, Ramon....says he can't come on that weekend....? no. So, I'm sorry we can't put this into consideration. We have to see what is best for the outcome in total.

Yes! We wanted to have Hannover holding the euros, but not under these kind of circumstances! This won't be professional, if we do it this way. I'm sorry again to say that. After all, if we would have decided to let Hannover happen again now, why should Flavio be the one who has to take a step aside, while he was the one saving us in our dilemma? Again, we needed to fix this problem as quick as possible, that's our job.

We know it is not the optimum. We know it is close to Göteborg and Policka, and some may think Grenoble should get euros again, since it already has MAIN status.
But as we don't really promote for flatland races to be held for euros, and think we should keep rotating things, so we decided against it. Pleace respect our decision in this kind of situation, which is not easy to handle. I believe if we stop wondering what could be better for now, we should take it what it is now, and we still can make the best of it. We are still open to solve the problem with those who are loosing money over this. We would appreciate any good ideas. Thank you for you understanding.

Dominik Kowalski
European Status Marshall
Speaking for the three of us.
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Re: Situation in Hannover

Post by Ramón Königshausen » Fri May 16, 2008 3:16 pm

Detlef Rehbock wrote: 3. I will hold a prime race on that weekend without price money to minimize my private damage as small as i can. This option only makes sense if enough skaters need this race, want this race and can´t life without that race.
To make this decision, it would be helpful if we had a racers list.

rmn
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i am ready

Post by Detlef Rehbock » Fri May 16, 2008 2:16 pm

i´m ready to be the loser.

Locked