World rankings: Overall

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Ranking, Rules and Discussion for International Slalom Skateboard Ranking

Moderator: Hans Koraeus

Rick Floyd
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Post by Rick Floyd » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:10 pm

Hans Koraeus wrote:I have not got any Antrim results. I once got a hint to have a look at the ncdsa contest calendar but there was no results updated there. Had a look again right now and still no results.
Strange - I've emailed them to you twice. Is corkyswe <at> yahoo.com your correct email address? Can you receive Excel spreadsheets as attachments? They were ony 300k and 84k. I'll try again right now. We corresponded on this before, so I know Antrim is only Plain status, which won't help me now that the Farm results are available, but it may help someboady a little.

Thanks again for all your hard work!

-RF
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- Jason Mitchell (Criddlezine Interview)

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Post by Rick Floyd » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:21 pm

Pat Chewning wrote:
Hans Koraeus wrote:I have not got any Antrim results. I once got a hint to have a look at the ncdsa contest calendar but there was no results updated there. Had a look again right now and still no results.
Antrim was not a sanctioned event.
Yes, but Corky said it will at least get "Plain" points...it won't help me but might help somebody slightly.

It certainly should be sanctioned as it is one of the best hills, and best attended races in the Northeast US. I'm going to work with the race organizer next year to help him get it sanctioned. Thanks Pat!
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Post by Cat Young » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:55 pm

Joe.... Wesley, just called you a smart a$$.

In my parts, them's fightin' words.
Image

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Post by Rick Floyd » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:11 pm

Hans Koraeus wrote:The races in red from Pat's list are missing from the ranking database...

Needham Open 19MAY
Slalom St Louis 26MAY OK
Nature's Outlaw 03JUN OK
Canberra 01JUL OK
5th Czech 15SEP
Kentucky Fried Cone Fest 16SEP OK
Equiniox 23SEP
Blacktown Beast 07OCT
Harbor 100 11NOV
Overlook Open 27OCT
The Farm 10AUG
Dixie Cup 03NOV

Grande Premio Brasil 20NOV OK


Maybe some of these events was never done?
Corky - I just emailed you the Farm 2007 results as a text file - all cleaned up and official with peoples correctly spelled names, and notes on alternate (nick)names and possible mis-spellings. Let me know if you received them.

Thanks again.

-Rick (Pink) Floyd
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- Jason Mitchell (Criddlezine Interview)

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Post by Rick Floyd » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:13 pm

Cat Young wrote:Joe.... Wesley, just called you a smart a$$.

In my parts, them's fightin' words.
In Wesley's parts that means you are a college graduate! ;-)

I kid Wesley, I kid.
"All the money in the world can not buy sharing the excitement of life with other people. Nothing else matters."

- Jason Mitchell (Criddlezine Interview)

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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:14 pm

Cat Young wrote:Joe.... Wesley, just called you a smart a$$.

In my parts, them's fightin' words.
What would you suggest?

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:48 pm

joe.
no tranny bashing here,ok?

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race results

Post by Steve Collins » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:00 am

All of the following events received Basic Sanctioning by the ISSA.

Harbor Hybrid (name changed from Nature's Outlaw), June 3, 2007
Event: Hybrid Slalom, Open

1 "Chris" "Chaput" USA 9.73
2 "Kevin" "Dunne" USA 9.89
3 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 10.01
4 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 10.13
5 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 10.38
6 "Steve" "Collins" USA 10.73
7 "Tim" "Kienitz" USA 10.86
8 "Michael" "Kaelon" USA 10.98
9 "Tiger" "Williams" USA 11.06
10 "Nic" "Stakias" USA 12.44
11 "Wyatt" "Kircher" USA 12.55


Equinox, September 23, 2007
Event: Tight Slalom, Open

1 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 11.05
2 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 11.26
3 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 11.41
4 "Steve" "Collins" USA 12.02


2nd Annual Harbor Hundred, November 10, 2007
Event: Tight Slalom, Open

1 "Richy" "Carrasco" USA 23.22
2 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 23.38
3 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 25.38
4 "Steve" "Collins" USA 25.59
5 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 25.68
6 "Michael" "Kaelon" USA 27.37
7 "Scott" "Johnston" USA 27.50
8 "Cat" "Young" USA 27.51
9 "Tiger" "Williams" USA 28.26
10 "René" "Carrasco" USA 29.25
11 "Kirby" "Cox" USA DQ

Claude Regnier
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Huh!

Post by Claude Regnier » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:04 am

Was anyone else aware of this? Including Kenny?

Steve C.


All of the following events received Basic Sanctioning by the ISSA.

Harbor Hybrid (name changed from Nature's Outlaw), June 3, 2007
Event: Hybrid Slalom, Open

1 "Chris" "Chaput" USA 9.73
2 "Kevin" "Dunne" USA 9.89
3 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 10.01
4 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 10.13
5 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 10.38
6 "Steve" "Collins" USA 10.73
7 "Tim" "Kienitz" USA 10.86
8 "Michael" "Kaelon" USA 10.98
9 "Tiger" "Williams" USA 11.06
10 "Nic" "Stakias" USA 12.44
11 "Wyatt" "Kircher" USA 12.55

Not that it matters any!
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by Steve Collins » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:22 am

they may have been, it was posted here among some of other usual places:

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=4674

i bet you'd have liked the course, fast and tricky

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Post by Kevin Dunne » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:36 am

Steve Collins wrote:they may have been, it was posted here among some of other usual places:

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=4674

i bet you'd have liked the course, fast and tricky
That was the one where, if you took the corner too wide, you risked flying off the cliff into Hobo Gulch!

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:34 am

I have got Antrim and The Farm results by e-mail.

I will take the some of the event results entered here as well for next update Dec 31.

Hmm, those event results added above looks like the good old std format I once wanted to have for all events. Great work! I don't see it very often though. :-( ... :-)

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Post by Rick Floyd » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:27 pm

Hans Koraeus wrote:I have got Antrim and The Farm results by e-mail.

I will take the some of the event results entered here as well for next update Dec 31.

Hmm, those event results added above looks like the good old std format I once wanted to have for all events. Great work! I don't see it very often though. :-( ... :-)
Hey Corky - can you outline that preferred format? I didn't include the rider's country in the Farm and Antrim results I sent you, so I'm guessing that info would be helpful (duh!)...but are the quotes around the rider's names useful for some reason? Do you need the times as well?

-RF
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- Jason Mitchell (Criddlezine Interview)

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Updated results...?

Post by Kevin Dunne » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:37 pm

Corky- When will the overal standings for the Men's Am be corrected? I know you told me that incorrect points were awarded for the Nationals...are you waiting for someone in Colorado to send you the proper point allocation or is it just a matter of waiting until the beginning of the month when things are usually updated? If Brad Jackman is the true overall points winner, he deserves to have the sandings show it!

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:01 am

Sending in results
Here is the topic about sending in results for the World Ranking on www.slalomranking.com

http://www.slalomranking.com/content/co ... =148&ct=12

The double quotes around names is only necessary when you have double names like "Jean Paul" or "de Smith" for example.

AM World ranking result
Will be calculated for Dec 31. That ranking will stand until the first ranking calculation for 2008 which is March 31.

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Post by Guillaume Saint-Criq » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:10 am

Corky

I just send you the results for Pirate Slalom race 1 (2007/11/25)

and I will send you soon results for race 2 (2007/12/16)

no status were asked for those 2 events

Guillaume

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Post by Patrick Allan » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:14 pm

simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:39 pm

patrick:tu ne sois pas complentanieresseeee avec les chaussures pervertissement de la voiture avec le camenbert ou de frommage sensible,sil vous plait encore un fois!!!!

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Post by Patrick Allan » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:13 pm

gniagniagniagniagnia...

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Post by Patrick Allan » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:09 pm

Patrick Allan wrote:simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...
Can't anyone give me a straight answer?! or at least a hint as to how these two guys did two seasons in 2007?

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Post by HUYNH BACH SAC Frédéric » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:27 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:patrick:tu ne sois pas complentanieresseeee avec les chaussures pervertissement de la voiture avec le camenbert ou de frommage sensible,sil vous plait encore un fois!!!!
funny translation of your mind Don' !

or real one ?!

weird...
Podium or pavement... but PAVEL !

www.coneracing.com

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:26 am

Patrick Allan wrote:simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...
This is beacuse they entered the Pro class at the COSS event. This made the program consider them to also be included in the Pro ranking. They will loose points both in Am and Pro ranking beacuse of fault with points for the Am class at the US Nationals. New ranking for Dec 31 should have that all fixed.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:22 am

<center>
http://www.slalomranking.com
Dec 31 - 2007
</center>

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Post by Guillaume Saint-Criq » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:52 am

hi Corky

did you receive results for Pirate Slalom race #2 (December 2007), or do you want I send it to you again?

results are not in the ranking

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:38 am

Guillaume Saint-Criq wrote:hi Corky

did you receive results for Pirate Slalom race #2 (December 2007), or do you want I send it to you again?

results are not in the ranking
I got it. They were sent to me in january which was too late for the Dec 31 ranking. Everything coming in during January will be put in a pile and will be the last chance for getting changes into the 2007 rankings. Then it is closed for the history books. The final and last update for any changes or errors is Jan 31.

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Post by Steve Collins » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:51 am

Hans Koraeus wrote:
Guillaume Saint-Criq wrote:hi Corky

did you receive results for Pirate Slalom race #2 (December 2007), or do you want I send it to you again?

results are not in the ranking
I got it. They were sent to me in january which was too late for the Dec 31 ranking. Everything coming in during January will be put in a pile and will be the last chance for getting changes into the 2007 rankings. Then it is closed for the history books. The final and last update for any changes or errors is Jan 31.
Corky,

Please also include the results for the "Equinox" and "2nd Annual Harbor Hundred" races (posted above on December 12th) in your final 2007 ranking. They are currently not included.

Many thanks

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:13 am

Equinox, September 23, 2007
Event: Tight Slalom, Open

1 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 11.05
2 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 11.26
3 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 11.41
4 "Steve" "Collins" USA 12.02


2nd Annual Harbor Hundred, November 10, 2007
Event: Tight Slalom, Open

1 "Richy" "Carrasco" USA 23.22
2 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 23.38
3 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 25.38
4 "Steve" "Collins" USA 25.59
5 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 25.68
6 "Michael" "Kaelon" USA 27.37
7 "Scott" "Johnston" USA 27.50
8 "Cat" "Young" USA 27.51
9 "Tiger" "Williams" USA 28.26
10 "René" "Carrasco" USA 29.25
11 "Kirby" "Cox" USA DQ


So it was these. Probably I did not think they were complete. But ok then, I will add them.

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Dixie Cup?

Post by Maria Carrasco » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:22 pm

Hi Corky -- Thanks for all your hard work keeping these results and tabulations in line.

I was just looking over the events listing, etc. and it looks as though The Dixie Cup results from Nov. 2007 in N. Carolina are missing. Maybe I have overlooked it in the line-up but if not, can you please check on that? I have the spreadsheets from Danny G if you need them.

All the best. Thanks again.

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Re: Dixie Cup?

Post by Jani Soderhall » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:57 am

Maria Carrasco wrote:it looks as though The Dixie Cup results from Nov. 2007 in N. Carolina are missing.
Corky has received them now. They'll be included in the next update.

/Jani

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:59 pm

<center>
http://www.slalomranking.com
Dec 31 - 2007
</center>

Ok, there we go. The final results for the 2007 ISSA World Rankings. The date limit for adding or changing any results is passed.

Now also the Rookie Ranking for 2007 is up.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:37 pm

<center>
http://www.slalomranking.com
Dec 31 - 2007
</center>

The final results for the 2007 ISSA World Rankings.

A small error was fixed with the Dixie Cup results. I had to recalculate the whole ranking again but very little have changed. At least now all discipline results from Dixie Cup should be listed correctly for the history.

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2008 Rankings -- How to avoid contests with no data?

Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:21 am

Racers, contest organizers, Corky:

Do you have suggestions for how to avoid this problem in 2008? That is, how do we ensure that contest results are posted and included in the rankings?
A) In a timely manner
B) That the results are complete and accurate?

The racers really should be able to expect better than this in 2008, so I'm open to suggestions for how this can be accomplished.

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Post by Peter Klang » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:50 pm

There is a solution coming soon. Race results in real time added on a web page for the world to see as it happens. The question is, are the slalom world ready for it?

Yours fastest
PK

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Post by Patrick Allan » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:25 pm

Hans Koraeus wrote:
Patrick Allan wrote:simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...
This is beacuse they entered the Pro class at the COSS event. This made the program consider them to also be included in the Pro ranking. They will loose points both in Am and Pro ranking beacuse of fault with points for the Am class at the US Nationals. New ranking for Dec 31 should have that all fixed.
not much has changed...

and it's still not very clear how these guys got points for 6 races in am and 6 races in pro during the same season...

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Ranking Problems!

Post by Claude Regnier » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:38 pm

Patrick, there seems to several problems with Total calculations in the present system. Unfortunatel it seems that Corky is working alone and he can not do it all.

Peter maybe onto something. I know J-rads is much simpler and seems to be a little more accutrate then Corky's.

I've noticed some math issues within the present ranking calculations.

There is simply too much material to handle and verify for one person. When results are submited late and in error it makes it even harder to stay up to date then to go try to find it all has to be an extra headache and time comsuming.

I'm not sure what the problem is with fixing AM-Pro results or if there needs to be an actual fix. The racers moved up from AM to Pro in the same season so they should be shown in the seperae classes as such just not have the same results counted.

This may be a good thing for future Slalomers to aspire too. If they work hard and have some talent they can climb rather quickly as time diferentials are minimal at the Top. They are minimal in all categories as well but there is a huge differences in groupings.

klangster, looking forward to seeing that new stuff, EH!
Last edited by Claude Regnier on Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by Kevin Dunne » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:34 pm

One thing that should be changed is "Virtual Points" part. It seems rediculous that a racer should get points based on his last year's points total. I can't think of any other sport that starts off by giving every racer a head-start on points based on how well they did the year before. We have racers that have not competed for 2 years and they are still ranked among the top. I am not talking about the 2, 3, or 4 year rankings. I am talking about Virtual Points as described on Slalomranking.com
http://www.slalomranking.com/rules/?ses ... ac627d9fb5
It should not matter that one region holds a race earlier than another...those who race early in the year may be on top for a while until the rest of the world catches up. That's how it is in every sport. You race, you get points, you are ranked ahead of those who don't race...for whatever reason.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:48 am

Patrick Allan wrote:
Hans Koraeus wrote:
Patrick Allan wrote:simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...
This is beacuse they entered the Pro class at the COSS event. This made the program consider them to also be included in the Pro ranking. They will loose points both in Am and Pro ranking beacuse of fault with points for the Am class at the US Nationals. New ranking for Dec 31 should have that all fixed.
not much has changed...

and it's still not very clear how these guys got points for 6 races in am and 6 races in pro during the same season...
Kevin,

It is possible to get points in several classes at the same time. For example if a Junior races in the AM class he will get points both in the AM ranking and in the JUN ranking. If a woman races in an OPEN class she will get points both in AM ranking and in Women ranking. In the case above with a racer changing from AM to PRO during the season the racer can get points for both PRO ranking and AM ranking in the same event. But only if it is an OPEN where both PRO and AM are racing together.

Getting points for several rank classes does not mean they will get the same point in the different rankings because all rank classes have their own point tables.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:16 am

Kevin Dunne wrote:One thing that should be changed is "Virtual Points" part. It seems rediculous that a racer should get points based on his last year's points total. I can't think of any other sport that starts off by giving every racer a head-start on points based on how well they did the year before. We have racers that have not competed for 2 years and they are still ranked among the top. I am not talking about the 2, 3, or 4 year rankings. I am talking about Virtual Points as described on Slalomranking.com
http://www.slalomranking.com/rules/?ses ... ac627d9fb5
It should not matter that one region holds a race earlier than another...those who race early in the year may be on top for a while until the rest of the world catches up. That's how it is in every sport. You race, you get points, you are ranked ahead of those who don't race...for whatever reason.
If it is a World Cup I think it's normal that you start from 0. For rankings it is not that obvious. The world ranking in golf counts 2 years back in time for example. A ranking is suposed to show the capacity of the skaters. For the current world ranking it is shown in the sence of the capacity to gain points on the slalom events on the slalom scene with all what that inflicts with statuses, points, attendance and travel.

For example Kenny Mollica, previous no 1 on the world ranking, is still quite high in the PRO world rankings even though he did not compete in 2007. He has fallen down but his capacity is still taken into account for a little while. One year off is allowed with the current system. If he continues to race very little he will continue to fall in the rankings.

One of the reason why the virtual points was implemented was to get a stable ranking. I don't think it would look good if a winner of an early BASIC event would show up as no 1 in the ISSA PRO World Ranking. And maybe to be there all alone. It would not look like a serious world ranking to me. With the current system all ranking are always filled up with all racers from the start. And no newcomer can set up an early event to try and claim a place high up in the world rankings. High places you will have to earn the hard way by attending and racing a lot of events. The World PRO ranking and the Women ranking has been set up to make it even more difficult. It takes several seasons of travel and event results to get to the top.

The system is hard on the newcomers. But once you have showed comitment to the slalom race scene the ranking system will support you. The new people have the motivation automatically. This system tries to encourage people who have competed to continue to travel and compete to protect their ranking placements.

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Re: Ranking Problems!

Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:25 am

Claude Regnier wrote:Patrick, there seems to several problems with Total calculations in the present system. Unfortunately it seems that Corky is working alone and he can not do it all.

Peter maybe onto something. I know J-rads is much simpler and seems to be a little more accutrate then Corky's.

I've noticed some math issues within the present ranking calculations.
Please tell me more. I'm really interested in any problems/math issues you find with the current system. And also of any inaccuracy even though this may be all built only on pure feeling.

I feel it myself sometimes but every time I look into it there is always an explaination. I'm sure this is the case for your assumptions as well. Please challenge me on this. A challenge open for everyone by the way. ;-)

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Post by Pat Chewning » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:30 am

I agree with Kevin Dunne that there should not be any "virtual points". It is confusing and misleading.

It is less misleading and confusing to start from 0 each season and earn points. Even if this shows Joe Nobody as #1 temporarily because of winning some BASIC contest in January. That's just an easier concept to follow than the "virutual points" method.

I also think that the 4-year ranking should not be the default ranking presented. What should be the default is THIS YEAR'S ranking -- even if it shows nothing (as it should, shortly after midnight on January 1st).

The ranking SHOULD be unstable at the beginning of the season ... and gradually become more stable as every racer goes to races and gets points to their maximum potential.

I think if you ask the Racers -- they would prefer the "NOW" rating, rather than the "HISTORY-BASED" rating methods.

================================

Of course, none of this will really be of much use if the contest organizers don't follow through and submit the results accurately and in a reasonable timeframe. We should know who is #1 in the World on Dec 31st, not sometime later near the end of January.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:04 am

Maybe it's a World Cup you are missing?

n West Atlantic races and n East Atlantic races. Set up the rules and let's go.

World Ranking
Why should a ranking be unstable? Of course a ranking should be stable. I think you are wrong there.

You say taking into account someones capacity is misleading. And then think it is ok that Joe Nobody is #1 on the world ranking. Talk about misleading.

And I thought I was up late. By the way I see that it is... late. I have to go to sleep.

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More!

Post by Claude Regnier » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:23 pm

Psst! Corky, it's in the PM I sent you the other day. The one you replied to and said you would look into my concerns about the Math.
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:27 am

Sorry Claude,

I forgot about that.

Here are your points
516 10:th Worlds (GS pro)
480 13:th Worlds (TS pro)
350 7:th Buckeye (TS pro)
330 9:th Buckeye (Special Pro)
315 11:th COSS (GS pro)
315 11:th COSS (Special pro)
315 11:th Hannover (Special pro)
310 1:st Dixie Cup (Special open)
________
2931 Total for 2007

I think the problem is that you counted both Worlds and Hannover (the 2 Majors) with Major points. You can only count 1 event with Major points. So your best event (Worlds) are counted with Major points and Hanover is counted with Main points.

Looking at your points at www.slalomskateboarder.com (http://www.slalomranking.com/rankings/p ... hp?p_id=86) I notice that both the Majors are shown with Major points so it's easy to make that mistake. In the best of worlds that list should show the points used in the actual ranking. It doesn't in the case that you have entered both of the Majors of the year for the moment. When we manage to get the worldranking over to the ISSA server we will make a function where each racer can se how the ranking point is calculated for that person.

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Thanks!

Post by Claude Regnier » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:40 am

Corky, thanks for clarifying that. Many more things makes sense now. The one thing I could never figure out was why more of the Worlds best Slalomracers never showed up at many big racers.

The point system as it stands is a deterant if you placed high in major races. Except for a Tittle you can not increase your point totals. You can only spend more money in hopes of losing less.

Maybe ISSA should open up a discussion on the Point System calcualtions for 2009 as well when they look into the rule changes. We should be trying to encourage the Best in the field to attend the Big races and perhaps pass ona few off the lesser ones?
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:28 am

Claude, it seems more fair counting only the best Major at the moment. Few can attend both. And I don't agree it's a waste of time or money to attend both the Majors if you can.

1. Going to a second Major gives you the chance to improve your "Major points" that are the most important points during the season. Most racers only get one chance.

2. By going to a second Major even if you don't improve your own points you can make sure it will be harder for your fellow racers not to take high points.

3. You get a second trip to an event considered to be the most important of the year.

4. And even if your results will not count as Major point in the end they still do count as "Main points" that are not too bad to come by either. ;-)

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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Claude Regnier » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:10 am

Corky, if you can't improve, why bother! No benefit, simply added cost.

Another fact is the system does not even count the two best major results. It's count 2 races at one major. This system is not your best 8 races of the yeaIt personally won't matter to me in the future but it certainly will affect racers and racing in the future.

Perhaps time to look at some changes to the system. For instance.

Why would Luca have gone to the worlds in 2007 after winning two of the 3 events in Hanover? he lost money just going to Hanover as the payout turned out to very little but at leats DEte did put some money in the pot after the Top 3 riders complained. There was no mention of no money in theprize purse beforehand. Rightfully so the racers were upset at this.

As Luca said at the time he could have chosen to go to Paris for the chance at the prize money there rather then none in Hanover.

I know there was more to Luca not attending the Wolrds but if you attend Major events you need to get points. As it stand now you are getting 2 values out of 6 races, if each event hold 3 races.

Perhaps the Worlds need to stand on their own seperate point system Higher (then Major) and hold a major on each continent as well. Tehn start in witht he mains. I'm not sure but this present system does need changes or modifications.

I know we had this discusion a long time ago and we put it on hold to focus on ISSA. Maybe now is the time to look closely at J-rads system and combine it with this one and make a new formula to encourage participation.

Any comments towards some kind of money being pooled from races included in the points system and the Season Overall winner gets a cash prize? That may also get some new things hapening.
Many Happy Pumps!

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Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:32 am

Hans Koraeus wrote: Why should a ranking be unstable? Of course a ranking should be stable. I think you are wrong there.

You say taking into account someones capacity is misleading. And then think it is ok that Joe Nobody is #1 on the world ranking. Talk about misleading.
Corky, most of the other ranking systems don't use "virtual points" -- and they are unstable until the season progresses.

Example: Soccer league rankings


Start of season: All teams are tied for last place (and 1st place with 0 points)

Week 1: Approx 1/2 of the teams have 3 points (won), 1/2 of the teams have 0 points (lost), some with 1 point (tie)

Week 2: Teams now have 6 points (won 2); 4 points (1 win 1 tie); 3 points (one win); 2 points (2 ties), or 0 points (2 losses)


Eventually, as the season progresses the best team will have the most points.

Notice that in week 1, the WORST team COULD possibly be in 1st place. It is unstable. Everyone realizes that. You cannot know who is the best at the beginning of the season. That is the reason for having the contests over the season. If you already knew who was the best at the beginning, then why hold the contests?

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:28 am

Have a look at this ranking:

www.worldcupranking.com

The points are awarded according to who you were racing.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:08 am

Claude Regnier wrote:Corky, if you can't improve, why bother! No benefit, simply added cost.
But did you not read my answer above? Read it again.

Even if you have have two 1:st places in one Major it's still an advantage going to the second one. It is true that your own point can not be increased but by taking high points in the second Major you stop your opponents from getting high points and that is as much worth pointwise as adding point to your own score. It's not just about increasing you own score. It's also about decreasing other racers score.

So the system is doing exactly what you want but by saying that it does not you are actually working against what you want to achieve. By telling everyone that it does not improve anything to go to a second major people might believe you and stay at home when that in fact is not true.
Claude Regnier wrote:Another fact is the system does not even count the two best major results. It's count 2 races at one major. This system is not your best 8 races of the yeaIt personally won't matter to me in the future but it certainly will affect racers and racing in the future.

This is true if you count Major point disciplines. All other discipline results does count your best discilpine result points of the year.

The reason to only count max 2 point results per event is to motivate travel. To get 6 Main points for the ranking you have to got to 3 events (3x2 best event points). Otherwise you could have traveled to only two and get 3 discipline points. The max 2 points/event in the current system promotes travel.

Imagine these results: First Major event 1:st and 6:th place. And the second Major event 1:st and 7:th.

With the current system you will be counted Major points for 1:st and 6:th place. You are pointing out another version that you would take Major points for the two 1:st places instead. This is an interesting thought. It would increase you chance of getting higher Major points with this system. The question I guess is how much an advantage do you want to give to the pure fact of entering the 2 Majors instead of one. Taking into consideration that most will not be able to do that trip because of primarily money constraints.

Major points is suposed to be the ultimate divider. If you make it easier to get higher Major points for everybody you also decrease the value of them at the same time. But this is an interesting point you made but I can't decide if I think it is better in the end than the current system or not. I think it boils down to "how much an advantage do you want to give to the pure fact of entering the 2 Majors instead of one".

In the perfect world we would have only one Major "The Worlds" but we might not be ready for that yet.
Claude Regnier wrote:Why would Luca have gone to the worlds in 2007 after winning two of the 3 events in Hanover?

See answer above
Claude Regnier wrote:Luca lost money just going to Hanover as the payout turned out to very little but at leats DEte did put some money in the pot after the Top 3 riders complained. There was no mention of no money in theprize purse beforehand. Rightfully so the racers were upset at this.

As Luca said at the time he could have chosen to go to Paris for the chance at the prize money there rather then none in Hanover.
Poor Luca. He lost money going to a competition. Well, welcome to the world 99,9% of all of us are living in. Sure it is good to have prizemoney but we can't squeeze it out of our wheels. And it affects a very few even though an important part because they are the better slalomers out there. But if you go to slalom races to only win money it's not the right sport for the moment. Right now most of the PRO purse is taken from the riders themselves with the PRO fee (and in some case also from the AM fee). If you have good (money) sponsors then set up a good prize purse. If not is it worth increasing the purse for the pros? Is that good for the sport. Many are already complaining about too high (PRO) entry fees. It's easy to decrease it but then you also decrase the money for Luca and the likes you want at your event. It's a balance. The dream solution is having same fee for Pro and Am and take all prize purse money from sponsors. The second best is what? Low Pro entry fee and low/no purse? High Pro entry fee and high purse for the top guys?

That about money. Then we have the World Ranking points. This is also a motivation and something all events can afford. Because they are free. (Maybe time to set a price on them? More on this below) Luca selected the high World Ranking points instead of the high money purse. It's not really selecting between pest and colera. It would be a nice choice for whoever of us who was in that situation.
Claude Regnier wrote:I know there was more to Luca not attending the Wolrds but if you attend Major events you need to get points. As it stand now you are getting 2 values out of 6 races, if each event hold 3 races.

No, you get 4 values of your 6 discipline races. 2 from each event as explained why above. 2 Major points and 2 Main points.
Claude Regnier wrote:Perhaps the Worlds need to stand on their own seperate point system Higher (then Major) and hold a major on each continent as well. Tehn start in witht he mains. I'm not sure but this present system does need changes or modifications.
This would be ok if we were in the situation were all the best could make it to one international World Championship. That has not been the case yet and is why the ranking has this solution with 1 Major on each side of the Atlantic. This could very well change in the future when we think the slalom scene is ready for one Major.
Claude Regnier wrote:I know we had this discusion a long time ago and we put it on hold to focus on ISSA. Maybe now is the time to look closely at J-rads system and combine it with this one and make a new formula to encourage participation.
Sure. Just don't forget to look closely also on the current World Ranking system.
Claude Regnier wrote: Any comments towards some kind of money being pooled from races included in the points system and the Season Overall winner gets a cash prize? That may also get some new things hapening.
This is a good idea that have been around but when events have a hard time getting their own economy together it has been hard to even propose such an idea. You could imagine theere was a pricetag for a World Ranking status that goes to ISSA that sets up a purse for the World Ranking. You could also imagine getting general sponsors to ISSA/World Ranking putting down money for it. That has been the whole idea for me with trying to build up the scene around an International body (ISSA) with slalom rules and a World Ranking (www.slalomranking.com). With this functioning we could be a very interesting "prospect" for a sponsor to invest in.

We did a small try with ConeRacing sponsring the Rookie rankings with money and products. It was suposed to be a teaser to others but noone took the hook. :-| But I don't blame them. You need someone who can sell the idea and talk to sponsors and so own. This is one of the most important posts in an event management company. ISSA would need such a person. Anyone up for it?
Pat Chewning wrote: Eventually, as the season progresses the best team will have the most points.

Notice that in week 1, the WORST team COULD possibly be in 1st place. It is unstable. Everyone realizes that. You cannot know who is the best at the beginning of the season. That is the reason for having the contests over the season. If you already knew who was the best at the beginning, then why hold the contests?
My answer is as before. You want a World Series or a World Cup. But in a World Ranking you should always see who is the "best" whenever you look at it. Two different things for me. Why make the viewer/media/sponsor have to realize if the ranking is stable or not? They won't realize this at all. They will only see who is no 1 of the ranking and be happy with that.
Ramón Königshausen wrote: The points are awarded according to who you were racing.
This is exactly what the current World Ranking do not want. If an organizer sets up an event and gets a high status and green light from the ISSA/Contest coordinators then if some good racers decide not to come then don't punish those who made the efffort to travel and come to the event. Punish those who did not come. Again a motivation for travel.
It's always easy with this "award according to who are there" idea when you live in an area with a lot of events and good slalomers. But what about the other good slalomers in areas where the slalom scene is not so big. The current system encourage all people to travel far once in a while and thus spreading the sport also to the areas with less of a slalom scene.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:57 am

In the perfect world we would have only one Major "The Worlds" but we might not be ready for that yet.
Quoting just a small stak of a whole meaning gives nothing. I just want to quote the beginning of the sentence: "In the perfect world..."

The question is not what is in the perfect world. The question is how do we reach this condition ?

What is the realistc goal of the ISSA ?

We have conflict of objectives. On one hand we want to spend less entry fee on the other hand the price purse is a big criteria for the Status.

Just one example, there are plenty of others.

Someone will need to do the job and organising the ISSA-work. And publish which Board Member is responsible for what and what the processes are to change somthing.

Dreaming and defendig the solutions we already have will let us stand at the same point for years.

Now i have to gratulate Noemi for her 2nd place in the Worldranking even when she raced at the Worlds in 2006 the last time...

/J-Rad

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