World rankings: Overall

[Pat Chewning]

Why should a ranking be unstable? Of course a ranking should be stable. I think you are wrong there.

You say taking into account someones capacity is misleading. And then think it is ok that Joe Nobody is #1 on the world ranking. Talk about misleading.

Corky, most of the other ranking systems don't use "virtual points" -- and they are unstable until the season progresses.

Example: Soccer league rankings


Start of season: All teams are tied for last place (and 1st place with 0 points)

Week 1: Approx 1/2 of the teams have 3 points (won), 1/2 of the teams have 0 points (lost), some with 1 point (tie)

Week 2: Teams now have 6 points (won 2); 4 points (1 win 1 tie); 3 points (one win); 2 points (2 ties), or 0 points (2 losses)


Eventually, as the season progresses the best team will have the most points.

Notice that in week 1, the WORST team COULD possibly be in 1st place. It is unstable. Everyone realizes that. You cannot know who is the best at the beginning of the season. That is the reason for having the contests over the season. If you already knew who was the best at the beginning, then why hold the contests?

[Claude Regnier]

Corky, if you can't improve, why bother! No benefit, simply added cost.

Another fact is the system does not even count the two best major results. It's count 2 races at one major. This system is not your best 8 races of the yeaIt personally won't matter to me in the future but it certainly will affect racers and racing in the future.

Perhaps time to look at some changes to the system. For instance.

Why would Luca have gone to the worlds in 2007 after winning two of the 3 events in Hanover? he lost money just going to Hanover as the payout turned out to very little but at leats DEte did put some money in the pot after the Top 3 riders complained. There was no mention of no money in theprize purse beforehand. Rightfully so the racers were upset at this.

As Luca said at the time he could have chosen to go to Paris for the chance at the prize money there rather then none in Hanover.

I know there was more to Luca not attending the Wolrds but if you attend Major events you need to get points. As it stand now you are getting 2 values out of 6 races, if each event hold 3 races.

Perhaps the Worlds need to stand on their own seperate point system Higher (then Major) and hold a major on each continent as well. Tehn start in witht he mains. I'm not sure but this present system does need changes or modifications.

I know we had this discusion a long time ago and we put it on hold to focus on ISSA. Maybe now is the time to look closely at J-rads system and combine it with this one and make a new formula to encourage participation.

Any comments towards some kind of money being pooled from races included in the points system and the Season Overall winner gets a cash prize? That may also get some new things hapening.

[Hans Koraeus]

Claude, it seems more fair counting only the best Major at the moment. Few can attend both. And I don't agree it's a waste of time or money to attend both the Majors if you can.

1. Going to a second Major gives you the chance to improve your "Major points" that are the most important points during the season. Most racers only get one chance.

2. By going to a second Major even if you don't improve your own points you can make sure it will be harder for your fellow racers not to take high points.

3. You get a second trip to an event considered to be the most important of the year.

4. And even if your results will not count as Major point in the end they still do count as "Main points" that are not too bad to come by either.

[Claude Regnier]

Corky, thanks for clarifying that. Many more things makes sense now. The one thing I could never figure out was why more of the Worlds best Slalomracers never showed up at many big racers.

The point system as it stands is a deterant if you placed high in major races. Except for a Tittle you can not increase your point totals. You can only spend more money in hopes of losing less.

Maybe ISSA should open up a discussion on the Point System calcualtions for 2009 as well when they look into the rule changes. We should be trying to encourage the Best in the field to attend the Big races and perhaps pass ona few off the lesser ones?

[Hans Koraeus]

Sorry Claude,

I forgot about that.

Here are your points
516 10:th Worlds (GS pro)
480 13:th Worlds (TS pro)
350 7:th Buckeye (TS pro)
330 9:th Buckeye (Special Pro)
315 11:th COSS (GS pro)
315 11:th COSS (Special pro)
315 11:th Hannover (Special pro)
310 1:st Dixie Cup (Special open)
________
2931 Total for 2007

I think the problem is that you counted both Worlds and Hannover (the 2 Majors) with Major points. You can only count 1 event with Major points. So your best event (Worlds) are counted with Major points and Hanover is counted with Main points.

Looking at your points at www.slalomskateboarder.com (http://www.slalomranking.com/rankings/p ... hp?p_id=86) I notice that both the Majors are shown with Major points so it's easy to make that mistake. In the best of worlds that list should show the points used in the actual ranking. It doesn't in the case that you have entered both of the Majors of the year for the moment. When we manage to get the worldranking over to the ISSA server we will make a function where each racer can se how the ranking point is calculated for that person.

[Claude Regnier]

Psst! Corky, it's in the PM I sent you the other day. The one you replied to and said you would look into my concerns about the Math.

[Hans Koraeus]

Maybe it's a World Cup you are missing?

n West Atlantic races and n East Atlantic races. Set up the rules and let's go.

World Ranking
Why should a ranking be unstable? Of course a ranking should be stable. I think you are wrong there.

You say taking into account someones capacity is misleading. And then think it is ok that Joe Nobody is #1 on the world ranking. Talk about misleading.

And I thought I was up late. By the way I see that it is... late. I have to go to sleep.

[Pat Chewning]

I agree with Kevin Dunne that there should not be any "virtual points". It is confusing and misleading.

It is less misleading and confusing to start from 0 each season and earn points. Even if this shows Joe Nobody as #1 temporarily because of winning some BASIC contest in January. That's just an easier concept to follow than the "virutual points" method.

I also think that the 4-year ranking should not be the default ranking presented. What should be the default is THIS YEAR'S ranking -- even if it shows nothing (as it should, shortly after midnight on January 1st).

The ranking SHOULD be unstable at the beginning of the season ... and gradually become more stable as every racer goes to races and gets points to their maximum potential.

I think if you ask the Racers -- they would prefer the "NOW" rating, rather than the "HISTORY-BASED" rating methods.

================================

Of course, none of this will really be of much use if the contest organizers don't follow through and submit the results accurately and in a reasonable timeframe. We should know who is #1 in the World on Dec 31st, not sometime later near the end of January.

[Hans Koraeus]

Patrick, there seems to several problems with Total calculations in the present system. Unfortunately it seems that Corky is working alone and he can not do it all.

Peter maybe onto something. I know J-rads is much simpler and seems to be a little more accutrate then Corky's.

I've noticed some math issues within the present ranking calculations.

Please tell me more. I'm really interested in any problems/math issues you find with the current system. And also of any inaccuracy even though this may be all built only on pure feeling.

I feel it myself sometimes but every time I look into it there is always an explaination. I'm sure this is the case for your assumptions as well. Please challenge me on this. A challenge open for everyone by the way.

[Hans Koraeus]

One thing that should be changed is "Virtual Points" part. It seems rediculous that a racer should get points based on his last year's points total. I can't think of any other sport that starts off by giving every racer a head-start on points based on how well they did the year before. We have racers that have not competed for 2 years and they are still ranked among the top. I am not talking about the 2, 3, or 4 year rankings. I am talking about Virtual Points as described on Slalomranking.com
http://www.slalomranking.com/rules/?ses ... ac627d9fb5
It should not matter that one region holds a race earlier than another...those who race early in the year may be on top for a while until the rest of the world catches up. That's how it is in every sport. You race, you get points, you are ranked ahead of those who don't race...for whatever reason.

If it is a World Cup I think it's normal that you start from 0. For rankings it is not that obvious. The world ranking in golf counts 2 years back in time for example. A ranking is suposed to show the capacity of the skaters. For the current world ranking it is shown in the sence of the capacity to gain points on the slalom events on the slalom scene with all what that inflicts with statuses, points, attendance and travel.

For example Kenny Mollica, previous no 1 on the world ranking, is still quite high in the PRO world rankings even though he did not compete in 2007. He has fallen down but his capacity is still taken into account for a little while. One year off is allowed with the current system. If he continues to race very little he will continue to fall in the rankings.

One of the reason why the virtual points was implemented was to get a stable ranking. I don't think it would look good if a winner of an early BASIC event would show up as no 1 in the ISSA PRO World Ranking. And maybe to be there all alone. It would not look like a serious world ranking to me. With the current system all ranking are always filled up with all racers from the start. And no newcomer can set up an early event to try and claim a place high up in the world rankings. High places you will have to earn the hard way by attending and racing a lot of events. The World PRO ranking and the Women ranking has been set up to make it even more difficult. It takes several seasons of travel and event results to get to the top.

The system is hard on the newcomers. But once you have showed comitment to the slalom race scene the ranking system will support you. The new people have the motivation automatically. This system tries to encourage people who have competed to continue to travel and compete to protect their ranking placements.

[Hans Koraeus]

simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...

This is beacuse they entered the Pro class at the COSS event. This made the program consider them to also be included in the Pro ranking. They will loose points both in Am and Pro ranking beacuse of fault with points for the Am class at the US Nationals. New ranking for Dec 31 should have that all fixed.

not much has changed...

and it's still not very clear how these guys got points for 6 races in am and 6 races in pro during the same season...

Kevin,

It is possible to get points in several classes at the same time. For example if a Junior races in the AM class he will get points both in the AM ranking and in the JUN ranking. If a woman races in an OPEN class she will get points both in AM ranking and in Women ranking. In the case above with a racer changing from AM to PRO during the season the racer can get points for both PRO ranking and AM ranking in the same event. But only if it is an OPEN where both PRO and AM are racing together.

Getting points for several rank classes does not mean they will get the same point in the different rankings because all rank classes have their own point tables.

[Kevin Dunne]

One thing that should be changed is "Virtual Points" part. It seems rediculous that a racer should get points based on his last year's points total. I can't think of any other sport that starts off by giving every racer a head-start on points based on how well they did the year before. We have racers that have not competed for 2 years and they are still ranked among the top. I am not talking about the 2, 3, or 4 year rankings. I am talking about Virtual Points as described on Slalomranking.com
http://www.slalomranking.com/rules/?ses ... ac627d9fb5
It should not matter that one region holds a race earlier than another...those who race early in the year may be on top for a while until the rest of the world catches up. That's how it is in every sport. You race, you get points, you are ranked ahead of those who don't race...for whatever reason.

[Claude Regnier]

Patrick, there seems to several problems with Total calculations in the present system. Unfortunatel it seems that Corky is working alone and he can not do it all.

Peter maybe onto something. I know J-rads is much simpler and seems to be a little more accutrate then Corky's.

I've noticed some math issues within the present ranking calculations.

There is simply too much material to handle and verify for one person. When results are submited late and in error it makes it even harder to stay up to date then to go try to find it all has to be an extra headache and time comsuming.

I'm not sure what the problem is with fixing AM-Pro results or if there needs to be an actual fix. The racers moved up from AM to Pro in the same season so they should be shown in the seperae classes as such just not have the same results counted.

This may be a good thing for future Slalomers to aspire too. If they work hard and have some talent they can climb rather quickly as time diferentials are minimal at the Top. They are minimal in all categories as well but there is a huge differences in groupings.

klangster, looking forward to seeing that new stuff, EH!

[Patrick Allan]

simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...

This is beacuse they entered the Pro class at the COSS event. This made the program consider them to also be included in the Pro ranking. They will loose points both in Am and Pro ranking beacuse of fault with points for the Am class at the US Nationals. New ranking for Dec 31 should have that all fixed.

not much has changed...

and it's still not very clear how these guys got points for 6 races in am and 6 races in pro during the same season...

[Peter Klang]

There is a solution coming soon. Race results in real time added on a web page for the world to see as it happens. The question is, are the slalom world ready for it?

Yours fastest
PK

[Pat Chewning]

Racers, contest organizers, Corky:

Do you have suggestions for how to avoid this problem in 2008? That is, how do we ensure that contest results are posted and included in the rankings?
A) In a timely manner
B) That the results are complete and accurate?

The racers really should be able to expect better than this in 2008, so I'm open to suggestions for how this can be accomplished.

[Hans Koraeus]

<center>
http://www.slalomranking.com
Dec 31 - 2007
</center>

The final results for the 2007 ISSA World Rankings.

A small error was fixed with the Dixie Cup results. I had to recalculate the whole ranking again but very little have changed. At least now all discipline results from Dixie Cup should be listed correctly for the history.

[Hans Koraeus]

<center>
http://www.slalomranking.com
Dec 31 - 2007
</center>

Ok, there we go. The final results for the 2007 ISSA World Rankings. The date limit for adding or changing any results is passed.

Now also the Rookie Ranking for 2007 is up.

[Jani Soderhall]

it looks as though The Dixie Cup results from Nov. 2007 in N. Carolina are missing.

Corky has received them now. They'll be included in the next update.

/Jani

[Maria Carrasco]

Hi Corky -- Thanks for all your hard work keeping these results and tabulations in line.

I was just looking over the events listing, etc. and it looks as though The Dixie Cup results from Nov. 2007 in N. Carolina are missing. Maybe I have overlooked it in the line-up but if not, can you please check on that? I have the spreadsheets from Danny G if you need them.

All the best. Thanks again.

[Hans Koraeus]

Equinox, September 23, 2007
Event: Tight Slalom, Open

1 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 11.05
2 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 11.26
3 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 11.41
4 "Steve" "Collins" USA 12.02


2nd Annual Harbor Hundred, November 10, 2007
Event: Tight Slalom, Open

1 "Richy" "Carrasco" USA 23.22
2 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 23.38
3 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 25.38
4 "Steve" "Collins" USA 25.59
5 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 25.68
6 "Michael" "Kaelon" USA 27.37
7 "Scott" "Johnston" USA 27.50
8 "Cat" "Young" USA 27.51
9 "Tiger" "Williams" USA 28.26
10 "René" "Carrasco" USA 29.25
11 "Kirby" "Cox" USA DQ


So it was these. Probably I did not think they were complete. But ok then, I will add them.

[Steve Collins]

hi Corky

did you receive results for Pirate Slalom race #2 (December 2007), or do you want I send it to you again?

results are not in the ranking

I got it. They were sent to me in january which was too late for the Dec 31 ranking. Everything coming in during January will be put in a pile and will be the last chance for getting changes into the 2007 rankings. Then it is closed for the history books. The final and last update for any changes or errors is Jan 31.

Corky,

Please also include the results for the "Equinox" and "2nd Annual Harbor Hundred" races (posted above on December 12th) in your final 2007 ranking. They are currently not included.

Many thanks

[Hans Koraeus]

hi Corky

did you receive results for Pirate Slalom race #2 (December 2007), or do you want I send it to you again?

results are not in the ranking

I got it. They were sent to me in january which was too late for the Dec 31 ranking. Everything coming in during January will be put in a pile and will be the last chance for getting changes into the 2007 rankings. Then it is closed for the history books. The final and last update for any changes or errors is Jan 31.

[Guillaume Saint-Criq]

hi Corky

did you receive results for Pirate Slalom race #2 (December 2007), or do you want I send it to you again?

results are not in the ranking

[Hans Koraeus]

<center>
http://www.slalomranking.com
Dec 31 - 2007
</center>

[Hans Koraeus]

simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...

This is beacuse they entered the Pro class at the COSS event. This made the program consider them to also be included in the Pro ranking. They will loose points both in Am and Pro ranking beacuse of fault with points for the Am class at the US Nationals. New ranking for Dec 31 should have that all fixed.

[HUYNH BACH SAC Frédéric]

patrick:tu ne sois pas complentanieresseeee avec les chaussures pervertissement de la voiture avec le camenbert ou de frommage sensible,sil vous plait encore un fois!!!!

funny translation of your mind Don' !

or real one ?!

weird...

[Patrick Allan]

simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...

Can't anyone give me a straight answer?! or at least a hint as to how these two guys did two seasons in 2007?

[Patrick Allan]

gniagniagniagniagnia...

[Donald Campbell]

patrick:tu ne sois pas complentanieresseeee avec les chaussures pervertissement de la voiture avec le camenbert ou de frommage sensible,sil vous plait encore un fois!!!!

[Patrick Allan]

simple question...

how come Martin Reeves and Joe Mclaren who are both at the top of the amateur ranking this year (top three) also have points for a full season (8 races) in the pro ranking?? I find that hard to understand...

[Guillaume Saint-Criq]

Corky

I just send you the results for Pirate Slalom race 1 (2007/11/25)

and I will send you soon results for race 2 (2007/12/16)

no status were asked for those 2 events

Guillaume

[Hans Koraeus]

Sending in results
Here is the topic about sending in results for the World Ranking on www.slalomranking.com

http://www.slalomranking.com/content/co ... =148&ct=12

The double quotes around names is only necessary when you have double names like "Jean Paul" or "de Smith" for example.

AM World ranking result
Will be calculated for Dec 31. That ranking will stand until the first ranking calculation for 2008 which is March 31.

[Kevin Dunne]

Corky- When will the overal standings for the Men's Am be corrected? I know you told me that incorrect points were awarded for the Nationals...are you waiting for someone in Colorado to send you the proper point allocation or is it just a matter of waiting until the beginning of the month when things are usually updated? If Brad Jackman is the true overall points winner, he deserves to have the sandings show it!

[Rick Floyd]

I have got Antrim and The Farm results by e-mail.

I will take the some of the event results entered here as well for next update Dec 31.

Hmm, those event results added above looks like the good old std format I once wanted to have for all events. Great work! I don't see it very often though. ...

Hey Corky - can you outline that preferred format? I didn't include the rider's country in the Farm and Antrim results I sent you, so I'm guessing that info would be helpful (duh!)...but are the quotes around the rider's names useful for some reason? Do you need the times as well?

-RF

[Hans Koraeus]

I have got Antrim and The Farm results by e-mail.

I will take the some of the event results entered here as well for next update Dec 31.

Hmm, those event results added above looks like the good old std format I once wanted to have for all events. Great work! I don't see it very often though. ...

[Kevin Dunne]

they may have been, it was posted here among some of other usual places:

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=4674

i bet you'd have liked the course, fast and tricky

That was the one where, if you took the corner too wide, you risked flying off the cliff into Hobo Gulch!

[Steve Collins]

they may have been, it was posted here among some of other usual places:

http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=4674

i bet you'd have liked the course, fast and tricky

[Claude Regnier]

Was anyone else aware of this? Including Kenny?

Steve C.


All of the following events received Basic Sanctioning by the ISSA.

Harbor Hybrid (name changed from Nature's Outlaw), June 3, 2007
Event: Hybrid Slalom, Open

1 "Chris" "Chaput" USA 9.73
2 "Kevin" "Dunne" USA 9.89
3 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 10.01
4 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 10.13
5 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 10.38
6 "Steve" "Collins" USA 10.73
7 "Tim" "Kienitz" USA 10.86
8 "Michael" "Kaelon" USA 10.98
9 "Tiger" "Williams" USA 11.06
10 "Nic" "Stakias" USA 12.44
11 "Wyatt" "Kircher" USA 12.55

Not that it matters any!

[Steve Collins]

All of the following events received Basic Sanctioning by the ISSA.

Harbor Hybrid (name changed from Nature's Outlaw), June 3, 2007
Event: Hybrid Slalom, Open

1 "Chris" "Chaput" USA 9.73
2 "Kevin" "Dunne" USA 9.89
3 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 10.01
4 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 10.13
5 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 10.38
6 "Steve" "Collins" USA 10.73
7 "Tim" "Kienitz" USA 10.86
8 "Michael" "Kaelon" USA 10.98
9 "Tiger" "Williams" USA 11.06
10 "Nic" "Stakias" USA 12.44
11 "Wyatt" "Kircher" USA 12.55


Equinox, September 23, 2007
Event: Tight Slalom, Open

1 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 11.05
2 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 11.26
3 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 11.41
4 "Steve" "Collins" USA 12.02


2nd Annual Harbor Hundred, November 10, 2007
Event: Tight Slalom, Open

1 "Richy" "Carrasco" USA 23.22
2 "Mike" "Maysey" USA 23.38
3 "Lynn" "Kramer" USA 25.38
4 "Steve" "Collins" USA 25.59
5 "Brent" "Kosick" USA 25.68
6 "Michael" "Kaelon" USA 27.37
7 "Scott" "Johnston" USA 27.50
8 "Cat" "Young" USA 27.51
9 "Tiger" "Williams" USA 28.26
10 "René" "Carrasco" USA 29.25
11 "Kirby" "Cox" USA DQ

[Donald Campbell]

joe.
no tranny bashing here,ok?

[Joe Iacovelli]

Joe.... Wesley, just called you a smart a$$.

In my parts, them's fightin' words.

What would you suggest?

[Rick Floyd]

Joe.... Wesley, just called you a smart a$$.

In my parts, them's fightin' words.

In Wesley's parts that means you are a college graduate!

I kid Wesley, I kid.

[Rick Floyd]

The races in red from Pat's list are missing from the ranking database...

Needham Open 19MAY
Slalom St Louis 26MAY OK
Nature's Outlaw 03JUN OK
Canberra 01JUL OK
5th Czech 15SEP
Kentucky Fried Cone Fest 16SEP OK
Equiniox 23SEP
Blacktown Beast 07OCT
Harbor 100 11NOV
Overlook Open 27OCT
The Farm 10AUG
Dixie Cup 03NOV
Grande Premio Brasil 20NOV OK


Maybe some of these events was never done?

Corky - I just emailed you the Farm 2007 results as a text file - all cleaned up and official with peoples correctly spelled names, and notes on alternate (nick)names and possible mis-spellings. Let me know if you received them.

Thanks again.

-Rick (Pink) Floyd

[Cat Young]

Joe.... Wesley, just called you a smart a$$.

In my parts, them's fightin' words.

[Rick Floyd]

I have not got any Antrim results. I once got a hint to have a look at the ncdsa contest calendar but there was no results updated there. Had a look again right now and still no results.

Antrim was not a sanctioned event.

Yes, but Corky said it will at least get "Plain" points...it won't help me but might help somebody slightly.

It certainly should be sanctioned as it is one of the best hills, and best attended races in the Northeast US. I'm going to work with the race organizer next year to help him get it sanctioned. Thanks Pat!

[Rick Floyd]

I have not got any Antrim results. I once got a hint to have a look at the ncdsa contest calendar but there was no results updated there. Had a look again right now and still no results.

Strange - I've emailed them to you twice. Is corkyswe <at> yahoo.com your correct email address? Can you receive Excel spreadsheets as attachments? They were ony 300k and 84k. I'll try again right now. We corresponded on this before, so I know Antrim is only Plain status, which won't help me now that the Farm results are available, but it may help someboady a little.

Thanks again for all your hard work!

-RF

[Joe Iacovelli]

OK Wesley, truth be told I have been victim of split points myself and fully intended to go back and resolve name issues (all posts now edited). I was just trying to get things up first.

What I take exception to is before I can even finish posting, you take the opportunity to point out where I am wrong. I wasn't done, but you're so perfect and have so much free time, you can't wait. Did I invent the term "keyboard racer" for you? I forget.

Guess why I resigned from the board of directors? Because of "skateboarders" who don't know Wentzle's last name.

Hope you spell my name right when I come to your race next year.

[Joe Iacovelli]

C Class Dual from Farm 07

Nick Chamberlin
Tess Herman
Emilie Gascon
Henry Julier
Lisa Farrow
Nick Iacovelli
Zack Levitt

[Joe Iacovelli]

B Class Dual from Farm 07

gumby
justin Readings
tyler hager
Dan Parrish
Rick Floyd
Chris Gregowicz
Julie Boulanger
Joe Iacovelli
Eddy Martinez
William Tway
Leo Ojeda
Anthony Pistono
Scott Snow
Mike Grasso
Fatboy
Carl Crieder