ISSA World Record Rules -- Proposal and Discussion

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ISSA World Record Rules -- Proposal and Discussion

Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:05 am

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND EFFORT. THE RULES ARE IN PLACE AND EFFECTIVE 06JUNE2008:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... ecords.pdf



Enclosed is a proposal to formalize the rules for setting World Records. Please discuss here, and then we can finalize these soon.

Poll Questions for ISSA World Records

1) Which overall proposal for ISSA-recognized World Records should be pursued?
A) A complete proposal for a timed 100-cone, ramp-start, 10-cone allowance, record described here:
http://www.pscontest.ch/project/jodli/C ... nes_WR.doc
B) A proposal for World Record recognition of the cumulative "most wins" of races.
C) A proposal for 3 course types (25, 50, 100 cone) basically following the way these courses have been run already, modified with individual poll questions for those controversial areas or areas that need clarification. Proposal here:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... ecords.pdf
D) The ISSA should not officially recognize World Records.

Questions 2-9 are clarifications/changes/decisions of individual items to proposal C. So the results of questions 2-9 will only apply if overall proposal C passes.

2) COURSES
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the 100-cone course type with cone penalties? YES NO
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the 100-cone course type (0 cone allowance)? YES NO
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the 50-cone course type? YES NO
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the 25-cone course type? YES NO

3) AGE GROUPS
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the Masters age group (45yrs +)? YES NO
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the Junior age group (17yrs -)? YES NO


4) TIMING
What rule shall be specified for timing requirements?
A) Tape Switches shall be used (activated with skateboard front wheels)
B) Light Beam shall be used (approximately ankle height)
C) Either Light-Beam or Tape Switches may be used, but the START must be identical to the FINISH.
D) No additional timing specification is needed.

5) START METHOD Distance (100-Cone and 50-Cone Courses)
What rule shall be specified for the distance from the start to the 1st cone?
A) No rule is needed
B) The start (end of ramp or push-start area) shall be 4m from the 1st cone.

6) START METHOD 100-Cone Course
What rule shall be specified for the start method?
A) Push-Start
B) Ramp-Start (per ISSA racing rules)
C) Either Ramp-Start or Push-Start
D) No specified start method

7) START METHOD 50-Cone Course
What rule shall be specified for the start method?
A) Push-Start
B) Ramp-Start (per ISSA racing rules)
C) Either Ramp-Start or Push-Start
D) No specified start method

8) START METHOD 25-Cone Course
What rule shall be specified for the start method?
A) Push-start with push-foot within the start box
B) No additional rule needed.

9) INITIAL RECORDS TO BE ENTERED
If the specified age-group and course-type is approved, should the following World Records be initially recorded?

• 100-Cone Male-Open: 20.56s Luca Giammarco YES NO
• 100-Cone Female-Open: 23.55s Yelena Sinadolova YES NO
• 100-Cone Male-Junior: 33.98s Alexey Alekseyev YES NO
• 50-Cone Male-Open: 12.83s Martin Drayton YES NO
• 25-Cone Male-Open: 8.112s Michael Dong YES NO[/quote]
Last edited by Pat Chewning on Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:35 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:20 am

My initial reaction:

The 50 and 100-cone records sound reasonable.

The ISSA should DROP the 25-cone criteria layed out in the proposal. It's nothing more than the ISSA absconding with Neil Gendzwil and NCDSA's Cyber Slalom. What's more is the Cyber Slalom is even now defunct as far as ISSA is concerned because it's a sanctioned and mandatory PUSH start. The ISSA and it's members are so much all over ramp starts that the box start for cyber slalom is now passe'.

Which of course then leads to the question of ramps for the 50 and 100-cone records. Do we leave it alone, mandate ramps of a certain height or just make it going for broke? The proposal has the start line at the first cone. We could say it can be done from a start ramp, a box start, an unlimited push start, towed in by a Porsche 911 or screaming down Mount Kilimanjaro and hitting the course on a flat run out.

I'm not complaining about the proposed 50 and 100-cones rules (I am about the 25-cone event,) just wondering how we establish the ENTRY into the course? Or do we?
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Post by Pat Chewning » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:34 am

I will check with NCDSA to see if they have any objections to the ISSA recognizing world records set with a 25-cone course. I thought that NCDSA had a trademark on "Cyberslalom" (the name) ...... but of course not the **IDEA** of holding 25-cone races. We can probably work with them on this.

Good point about the starts, the rules probably need something like this:

50-cone and 100-cone: "Starts may be accomplished in any manner."

25-cone: "Starts are by pushing." (This can be combined with the description of the push-start box.

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Masters?

Post by Martin Drayton » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:18 am

What age does Masters start at in the ISSA?
Last edited by Martin Drayton on Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Karl Floitgraf » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:08 am

For the sake of World Records it shouldn't make a difference how you start. If you can stay in the course when coming in super super hot I believe more power to you. Just my opinion though.
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Post by Joe Iacovelli » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:16 am

All,

Are these proposals for 2009?

Speaking specifically and only about the 50 cones guiness record. We'll be adhearing to the rules as Guiness states them. Doesn't that make sense?

Joe

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:12 am

18 World Records is a bit too much.

One World Record (100 Cones) in three categories (Men, Women, Juniors) is enough!

The World Record holder should be the fastest men/women/junior arround 100 Cones.

That means that just a few rules need to be settled:

-Ramp-Start
-distanze to the first Cone
-Cone Penalty
-max Cone Penalty

The distanz between the Cones can be variable. Big distanz = long way trough the 100 Cones, Small distanz = short way risiko higher to hit Cones.

I would like too see a separate Website for this, which explains the rules and show the World Record holders, with an Calender for the next World Record breaking attempts.

The propesed version with 18 titles will be a sale out and the whole World Rekord thing will be just somthing for statistics.

/J-Rad

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:38 am

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:
That means that just a few rules need to be settled:

-Ramp-Start
-distanze to the first Cone
-Cone Penalty
-max Cone Penalty
I find those are too many requirements. One will have to have a ramp to be allowed to lay down a world record. The least possible amount of specifications should be used. No ramp means no restrictions on its construcion are needed, no specifictions on the distance between the ramp and the first cone etc.

What is important maybe is if it is allowed to use a light beam or if it can be tape switch only.

Furthermore, 100 cones are very much. You'll first have to find a good spot where you can place 100 cones. With 50 cones you'll be able to do this at the normal practising area...100 cones needs a of preperation and it is much a greater effort to lay down a good time (which would be an agrument for the 100 cone-record).


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Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:01 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:18 World Records is a bit too much.
Should we have age-group classes for world records? (Current proposal is 3 age classes)

Should we have no MALE/FEMALE classes for world records? (Current proposal is 2 classes)

Should we have 1 course, 2 courses, or 3 courses? (Current proposal is 3 courses)


Muliply all of these together and you get 18 world records.

JRAD is proposing only 1 course (100-Cone) (Therefore only 6 world records)
Ramon is proposing at least keeping two courses (50-Cone and 100-cone) (Therefore 12 world records)
Wes is proposing not doing the 25-cone course (therefore at most 12 world records)

I think I see a poll comming up with a vote for each course type......

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Post by Pat Chewning » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:06 pm

Joe Iacovelli wrote:All,

Are these proposals for 2009?

Speaking specifically and only about the 50 cones guiness record. We'll be adhearing to the rules as Guiness states them. Doesn't that make sense?

Joe
Joe, I thought that these proposals would be for "Now and in the future" -- that is, they become effective once we decide on them, and they are constant until they need fixing.

That's just my opinion.


Another opinion of mine is that the Guiness method of timing the 50-cone course is wrong. Their timing specification is that you time the ENTRY into to the course and the EXIT out of the course. That is, time from the front-most part of the skateboard for the start, and the rear-most part of the skateboard for the finish. I think the timing should be consistent from start to finish. (e.g. Front wheel to front wheel).


I think I can say with high confidence that we (members of the ISSA) know a lot more about running skateboard races and timing them than Guiness. We should be telling them who has earned a proper world-record, not the other way around.

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:34 pm

Ok leave the age groups away for me and you get 4 different world records.

Ever heard of world records for different age classes? I haven't.

e.g. the pyhsical strenght of an adolescent varies from individual to individual. Not every 16-year old rider is able to win a national championship in the men's category...


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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:01 pm

very good suggestion ramon and sooooooooooooooo true!

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Post by Jack Smith » Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:09 pm

Ever heard of world records for different age classes? I haven't.
Most sports that have World World Records based on time/distance are divided into age group categories.

For the 25, 50, 75, 100 or whatever number of cone record to have any validity, the start must be the same. Be it ramp, push, tow in, roll in from a big hill, you must choose one and stick with it.

For example the Men's 100m dash record is somewhere around 9.79 (I think), this is of course from a starting block start. The athlete who holds this record, could probably run the same distance in the "sub 8 second range" if he were allowed to have a 25m "flying start".

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:38 pm

Pat,

please change my proposal to one course (100 Cones) in female/male categorie. (two world records)

I would propose to include the Ramp into the rules. No definitions on construction. Just include the distance (3-4 meters like on races) to the first cone to the rules.

That means three variable (the slope/location, distance between the Cones and the hight of the ramp) are to be set by every organizer who holds a WR event.

/J-Rad

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:20 am

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote: I would propose to include the Ramp into the rules. No definitions on construction. Just include the distance (3-4 meters like on races) to the first cone to the rules.
Well then sorry for my pitiful suggestion but then I'd like to use Danny Way's ramp he used to jump over the Chinese Wall.

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:51 am

Pat Chewning wrote:I will check with NCDSA to see if they have any objections to the ISSA recognizing world records set with a 25-cone course. I thought that NCDSA had a trademark on "Cyberslalom" (the name) ...... but of course not the **IDEA** of holding 25-cone races. We can probably work with them on this.
Adam at NCDSA has indicated that he is OK with the ISSA recognizing world records for the 25-cone course as long as we title and credit the course as the "Ncdsa.com CyberSlalom" course.

Sounds good to me. So this is not an obstacle. All we have to do is to decide whether this form of course (25 cone, 6 foot, 0-cone allowance, push start, etc) is the type of course that the ISSA would want to recognize for world records.

-- Pat

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:31 am

Here's the good old topic for you with the world records and rules discussion.

Here's the most recent topic for you about world records (and rules discussion).

Here is the last "inofficial rules" set up through discussions since way back.
Hans Koraeus wrote:Seems there is an endless need for reminding of the 100 cone rules:
100 cone rules ver 1.3
-------------------------------------------
1. Course
100 straight "full sized" cones, timed from the middle of first cone to the middle of the last cone.

2. Cone penalty
Cone penalty 0.1 sek for each "cone hit". (Cone limit to be discussed. 11 cones and more is a DQ?)

- "Full sized" = Minimum base diameter 12,5 cm / 5" and minimum hight 20,5 cm / 8".
- "Cone hit" = Fallen cone or outside base circle.

3. Official World record titles
- Fastest run (time with cone penalties)
- Fastest clean run (time with no cones displaced)

4. Official results/events
Results from a 100-cone discipline on a minimum Prime status event. 2 competition runs for each racer. Best time counts (including cone penalty of course).

-------------------------------------------

Blaze into a 100 cone straight course with whatever start you like, on any hill, with any slope, with any surface, with any wind, with any cone spacing in any temperature and adjust your time with penalties. The smallest adjusted time wins.

Do it with your friends and you have an unofficial record. Do it at an official event and you might just break the official world record.
This is the easiest way to handle different courses and still be able to compete against the same World Record.

Something to note with these rules also is that you can never alone or with a couple of friends set up a course and make official World Records.

Lucas record from -95 was set with these rules. And the rules was done to take into account Martin Sweeneys record from before that.

What is missing is a shorter version for Winter/Indoor events. (25-30 cones)
And a medium long outdoor version. (around 50-60 cones)

4.1 Course type
Three different types like 100, 50, 25 cones is good . Good to have options for the organizers which fit the best for the occasion. In

4.2 Race classes
The normal event classes are there. Open and Junior. Male and Female. Quite ok. I don't know how much the Masters class is needed though.

5.1-5.3 25, 50, 100 course description
In my view they could all be the same as in the old "un-official" rules...
100 cone rules ver 1.3
-------------------------------------------
1. Course
100 straight "full sized" cones, timed from the middle of first cone to the middle of the last cone.

2. Cone penalty
Cone penalty 0.1 sek for each "cone hit". (Cone limit to be discussed. 11 cones and more is a DQ?)

- "Full sized" = Minimum base diameter 12,5 cm / 5" and minimum hight 20,5 cm / 8".
- "Cone hit" = Fallen cone or outside base circle.

3. Official World record titles
- Fastest run (time with cone penalties)
- Fastest clean run (time with no cones displaced)

4. Official results/events
Results from a 100-cone discipline on a minimum Prime status event. 2 competition runs for each racer. Best time counts (including cone penalty of course).

-------------------------------------------

Blaze into a 100 cone straight course with whatever start you like, on any hill, with any slope, with any surface, with any wind, with any cone spacing in any temperature and adjust your time with penalties. The smallest adjusted time wins.

Do it with your friends and you have an unofficial record. Do it at an official event and you might just break the official world record.
Simple and clean.
Don't care about flat or steepness. It will be handled by the free cone spacing.
Don't care about start. The start can be what you like. But since in these rules a minimum Prime status is demanded it will exclude the more exotic ones. I.e. normally there will be a start ramp under the normal ISSA rules.


7.1 Initial World Records for 100 cones.
Take also into account Martin Sweeney as the first World Record who we could say did start it all off. Then the once proposed is also ok and done according to the rules.

7.2 50-cones
No world Record initially exist

7.2 25-cones
No world Record initially exist.

Dongs record is for the Cyber Slalom (I guess even though they don't seem to be the same) that I think is a whole different kind of a discipline with specific rules invented by NCDSA. See http://www.ncdsa.com/cyber_slalom.asp
Don't know if we are just to steal that idea. And if we want it to become ISSA Cyber Slalom rules then for me it is a 4:th discipline with very specific/strange (existing) rules. And if so maybe we should just change the other "25-cone" to "30-cone" instead to make them differ.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:11 am

Pat Chewning wrote:
Pat Chewning wrote:I will check with NCDSA to see if they have any objections to the ISSA recognizing world records set with a 25-cone course. I thought that NCDSA had a trademark on "Cyberslalom" (the name) ...... but of course not the **IDEA** of holding 25-cone races. We can probably work with them on this.
Adam at NCDSA has indicated that he is OK with the ISSA recognizing world records for the 25-cone course as long as we title and credit the course as the "Ncdsa.com CyberSlalom" course.

Sounds good to me. So this is not an obstacle. All we have to do is to decide whether this form of course (25 cone, 6 foot, 0-cone allowance, push start, etc) is the type of course that the ISSA would want to recognize for world records.

-- Pat
Well, as long as it's OK with the vindictive little prick who purposefully blocked any links to Slalomskateboarder.com for five years.

Yes. Let's ask if he's OK with it.

Better yet, f#@k him and his 25-cone carnival ride. No ISSA recognition for this ridiculous bullshit.

Now you know how I'll vote.
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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:39 am

Wesley Tucker wrote:Well, as long as it's OK with the vindictive little prick who purposefully blocked any links to Slalomskateboarder.com for five years.

Yes. Let's ask if he's OK with it.

Better yet, f#@k him and his 25-cone carnival ride. No ISSA recognition for this ridiculous bullshit.

Now you know how I'll vote.
Wes, can you separate your personal feelings for Adam and NCDSA from what the ISSA members might want, and whether or not the NCDSA.com CyberSlalom course is a reasonable and well-defined way to establish standardized world records for skateboarding?

Adam has stopped blocking links to slalomskateboarder.com Adam has set up a forum for ISSA discussions on NCDSA. I don't see why we can't move forward and let previous errors in policy in the past...

If you want to argue that the 25-cone NCDSA.com CyberSlalom is not a suitable method for establishing world records based on the course specifics, or having too many record courses, or it's too easy, or some other merit-based argument, then I'm all ears.

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Bothered?

Post by Martin Drayton » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:41 am

Hans Koraeus wrote:

7.1 Initial World Records for 100 cones.

Take also into account Martin Sweeney as the first World Record who we could say did start it all off. Then the once proposed is also ok and done according to the rules.

7.2 50-cones
No world Record initially exist

7.2 25-cones
No world Record initially exist.
Corky, as they say in the US, "Whatever"...Michael Dong is probably equally bothered.
That little organisation called Guinness recognise it (it was their idea), which is good enough for the US Government and consequently my Green Card is within sight. Also, due to the TV program, another 235 million people now know that skateboard slalom exists...
Have a nice day ;) I'll leave you guys to it.

Martin.

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:42 am

See the 1st post in this topic area. I have started a draft of the poll questions for ISSA members to resolve some of the alternatives around World Records. If you want me to change the poll questions (clarify, add, delete, make less biased -- whatever), then please do so in this topic area.

I plan on launching the poll approx March 15th and closing approx March 30th.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:11 am

Will it be voted on every Detail ?

If you vote on every detail you loose the view for the whole WR-Concept.

I want to vote for a Concept and don't for detail points which gives a new concept in the end.

Why not a proposal (concept) from the BOD ? And proposals (concept) from Members who want to do a proposal ? And than vote for a whole concept.

What we are doing here is just a workgroup which works on one variant. I as a Member want to choose the best variant from 3-4 variants.

Before discussing about the details. The question should be "What is the goal for the WR-Concept" or "How does the Result look like"

/J-Rad

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Post by GARY GLASSER » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:01 pm

Records

I think that we can still recognize groups for a record. Ex. Women, kids under 16, the old bones. The idea that there are several areas means more people trying. (maybe call them Prime Records and Main Records, something like that. Main will be for the old bones kids and women and Prime for the Men vs Women, any age) Just throwing stuff out there.

I am against the ramp, box start at this time. If you can run hot into the first cone pulled by a Porsche, so be it. (Imagine one of the ColoRADo kids taking a 1 mile run into the first cone at Rist Canyon...at 65 mph!!!!)
I am the slowest COSS slalom racer..Lucky for you!

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Post by Pat Chewning » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:10 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:Will it be voted on every Detail ?

If you vote on every detail you loose the view for the whole WR-Concept.

I want to vote for a Concept and don't for detail points which gives a new concept in the end.

Why not a proposal (concept) from the BOD ? And proposals (concept) from Members who want to do a proposal ? And than vote for a whole concept.

What we are doing here is just a workgroup which works on one variant. I as a Member want to choose the best variant from 3-4 variants.

Before discussing about the details. The question should be "What is the goal for the WR-Concept" or "How does the Result look like"

/J-Rad
Yes, this is a workgroup on one variant. If you would like to propose a completely different variant, then go for it. I can include that in the voting. I didn't structure it that way because in my experience it is difficult to get anybody to create the "alternate variant".

I'll try to answer your questions:

1) What is the goal for the WR Concept?
Pat's goals:
A) Limited # of courses recognized for WR. So we don't have people doing the 67 68 69 cone world-records.
B) Uniform methodology so that we don't have to argue EACH time someone does this. (We only argue once -- to set the rules and methodology)
C) ISSA-sanctioned (So that alternate bodies -- e.g. Guiness Book of WR) are not telling us how to run WR's -- they are asking us.
D) Courses simple enough so that any reasonable contest director can follow them and set up a course for WR attempts.
E) Methodology rigorous enough so that WR's that are set are less subject to being disputed.
F) Use courses from past history to choose present rules (e.g. 100-cone, 25-cone, and 50-cone) -- don't re-invent courses if they've already been done.

2) What's it look like when it is done correctly?
A) Some contests start having WR attempts and WR's are set
B) The ISSA members are interested and BELIEVE the WR's being set
C) Communities where WR attempts are made are more receptive to holding races.
D) There are WR-specific contests set up -- with the specific and only goal to set WR's.

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Post by James Peters » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:47 pm

I think the idea of cone penalties complicates matters far too much. Keep it simple, clean runs only, even on the 100. If you can't do that, you're not WR material. Otherwise, it's just a matter of finding the steepest hill and plowing all the cones.

Age group records, it's fine for us to track them for our own internal purpose and edification, but I don't think Guinness breaks it down like that. Just one man / woman = one record, no?

The 25-cone cyber should stay as-is, IMHO. All the cone records require finesse, but the short cyber is the only one that requires true athleticism in the sprint, so it isolates a unique ability: acceleration on flats under your own power only. And given the current parameters its the most accessible record to work at, since its quite difficult to find a perfectly flat surface with adequate run-out, that can be run in both directions.

jp

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Post by Zack Levitt » Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:47 am

Why does the ISSA have to have a rule or whatever for everything. Is the ISSA in charge of world records? Leave it to the people who record and publish records. IF you make rules and standards for everything at some point it loses its fun factor and gets all about the rules. If you rip on on a 25 cone course does that disqualify you as having a propulsion device that was jettisoned? NCDSA.com Cyber slalom, that is just retarted. I dont agree with Wesley much, but Adam, seems like an ass from what I have read. He wants credit for the name of a course used, that is retarted. Stop with the rules and just SKATE.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:44 pm

Thanks for the info Pat.

Will try to send in the documentation till March 14.

/J-Rad

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Post by Martin Drayton » Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:23 pm

James Peters wrote:I think the idea of cone penalties complicates matters far too much. Keep it simple, clean runs only, even on the 100. If you can't do that, you're not WR material. Otherwise, it's just a matter of finding the steepest hill and plowing all the cones.

Age group records, it's fine for us to track them for our own internal purpose and edification, but I don't think Guinness breaks it down like that. Just one man / woman = one record, no?

The 25-cone cyber should stay as-is, IMHO. All the cone records require finesse, but the short cyber is the only one that requires true athleticism in the sprint, so it isolates a unique ability: acceleration on flats under your own power only. And given the current parameters its the most accessible record to work at, since its quite difficult to find a perfectly flat surface with adequate run-out, that can be run in both directions.

jp
Total sense...IMHO.
You will also need to decide whether you want Guinness to recognise the records set under ISSA auspices (clearly the very mention of the "G" word gets some folk here very vexed!), if so, they will no doubt have to be clean to be considered. That may not have been the case in Martin Sweeney's time, but is definately the way the current Guinness people want it.

Yes, they have lots of freaky records, but they also have Richie Carrasco, Danny Way, Shaun White and countless other 'serious' athletes in there too...

Why bother with Guinness? Well, if we ever want more than just the participants knowing what slalom skateboarding even is, involvement with them will bring it to a much wider audience, after all the GWR Book is the best-selling book on the planet. It could open doors to us if used as a marketing tool, just as the progressive thinkers holding the 'Race for the Old Jug' are doing.
They don't try to take over sports, just record events and recognise them.

Martin.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:39 pm

the first step to get a decent world record is the implementation of a timing system-not a stopwatch.
if guinness wants to walk the stopwatch way then it is totally uninteresting and contraproductive to any effort any race organizer has ever made when he put down a race.

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Post by James Peters » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:07 pm

Donald Campbell wrote:the first step to get a decent world record is the implementation of a timing system-not a stopwatch.
if guinness wants to walk the stopwatch way then it is totally uninteresting and contraproductive to any effort any race organizer has ever made when he put down a race.
This is a Non-Issue: Guinness will accept records claimed using an accurate timing system, like tape switches attached to a Tway timer. They'll also accept stopwatch times, but that doesn't mean we're required to use them at our events - so in fact we could make it ISSA "internal" stipulation that we use only a specific type of timing system.

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Post by Neil Orta » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:19 pm

For "World Record" it is my opinion that:
(1) set distance from time start to first cone
(2) set distance from last cone to time stop
(3) 50 cone
(4) 100 cone
(5) Men's
(6) Women's
(7) Clean runs only
timing system- electronically controlled start and finish(ie beams or tapes-no stop watches)
Keep it simple-4 possible World Records

The ISSA can also seperate "Title" into
(1)Junior
(2)Men's
(3)Women's
(4)Master's

For purposes of recording and/or awarding for accomplishments.

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100 cone fixed cone spacing

Post by Steve Collins » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:56 am

I've always wondered why the 100 cone doesn't have a specific cone spacing. I think it would provide a better apples-to-apples comparison of times. Putting aside the issue of slope variation, can someone provide a sound argument for not having a cone spacing requirement?

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Post by Neil Orta » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:19 pm

For me it seems that someone could place at say 5.5 feet on a flat and another could place at 8 feet on a slope. Who would get a faster time? the 5.5 placment would give a shortter distance but the sloped layout would provide more speed. In my opinion it is easier for everyone to give it a shot and not have to find the hill exact as the previous guy or to an exact spec some organization set rules to.

Just my two cents.

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:24 pm

Neil Orta wrote:For me it seems that someone could place at say 5.5 feet on a flat and another could place at 8 feet on a slope. Who would get a faster time? the 5.5 placment would give a shortter distance but the sloped layout would provide more speed.
That's not the necessarily the case at all.

When looking at someone like Michael Dong complete the cyber slalom (174 feet total) in under 8 seconds, then the acceleration from the pump is a real factor. A skater with bionic hips like Dong, Gilmour or Maysey could very easily go faster with 5.5 on the flat than another skater on a slope with 8 foot spacing.

And let's not forget this is for 100 cones. That's a real difference of 544.5 feet compared to 792 feet. The difference of 247 feet is almost enough space for another slalom course.
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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm

Here is the concept for a 100 Cone WR challenge: http://www.pscontest.ch/project/jodli/C ... nes_WR.doc

with Input from Macster and Stefan Bölsterli.


Summary

The idea is to have an official body for the Slalomsktaboard 100Cones world record challenge. There should be an assosiation which coordinate the official world records attempts on sanctioned or not sanctioned ISSA competitions. At the same time there should be a place for unofficial records, which can be published by the racer himself on a central place like a website.

The goals are:

-Present the fastest male / female on a skateboard around 100 Cones.
-Present Slalom Skateboarding trough a small Event to a big public.
-Motivation to compare with other skaters around 100 Cones.
-To have the Elements in Slalom mapped on the WR challenge.


-Publishing the offical rules for the 100Cone world record challenge.
-Coordinating and publishing the offical 100Cone world record attempts.
-Publishing the offical World Record Holders.
-Running the central webportal.

**************
-sorry for the English, my corrector had no time to write it in a readable english


/J-Rad

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:04 am

I've been thinking about this and I suddenly realized what WE as the ISSA should recognize as world records: victories.

Is there a world record for the fastest ski, snowboard or water ski slalom? No. Why? Because these sports recognize the impossibility of an absolute standard from course-to-course.

So, what should the ISSA recognize as a world record? The same thing FIA, NASCAR, IRL, WCS and any other racing organization recognizes: the most WINS. That's our world record holder.

World Record victories in ISSA-Sanctioned events for:

Men's Pro
Men's Open
Women's Pro
Women's Open
Boys
Girls.

I'm not certain but I have a feeling the current world record holders in two of the categories are Jason and Lynn. I can't guess who the Open and young skaters record holders are.

Oh, and these are WINS IN RACES, not overalls for the weekend. A win in the tight and a second in the hybrid and the GS means ONE win.

Michael Shumacher, Richard Petty, A.J. Foyt and Kenny Berstein have all held the record in their various endeavors. We should also recognize this achievement.

I know Martin set a World Record for the Guinness people and congratulations to him. I wish I was that fast. That's not, however, the type of records the ISSA should be calculating. Let's determined who's the record holders based on performances at OUR SANCTIONED EVENTS.
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Post by Martin Drayton » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:30 am

Wesley Tucker wrote:I've been thinking about this and I suddenly realized what WE as the ISSA should recognize as world records: victories.

Is there a world record for the fastest ski, snowboard or water ski slalom? No. Why? Because these sports recognize the impossibility of an absolute standard from course-to-course.

So, what should the ISSA recognize as a world record? The same thing FIA, NASCAR, IRL, WCS and any other racing organization recognizes: the most WINS. That's our world record holder.

World Record victories in ISSA-Sanctioned events for:

Men's Pro
Men's Open
Women's Pro
Women's Open
Boys
Girls.

I'm not certain but I have a feeling the current world record holders in two of the categories are Jason and Lynn. I can't guess who the Open and young skaters record holders are.

Oh, and these are WINS IN RACES, not overalls for the weekend. A win in the tight and a second in the hybrid and the GS means ONE win.

Michael Shumacher, Richard Petty, A.J. Foyt and Kenny Berstein have all held the record in their various endeavors. We should also recognize this achievement.

I know Martin set a World Record for the Guinness people and congratulations to him. I wish I was that fast. That's not, however, the type of records the ISSA should be calculating. Let's determined who's the record holders based on performances at OUR SANCTIONED EVENTS.
Firstly there ARE Ski and Snowboard Records for Speed Attained, set at the KL Course at Les Arcs, France. I also don't feel that its possible to compare those two sports to what we are talking about as there are far more variables involved on snow, let alone courses getting rutted from the moment the 1st racer goes down the course. In our races a trough doesn't get formed in the tarmac which ends up 18" deep by the time we get to the dual racing...

Your suggestion sounds reasonable, but how will it take into account that some have more available funds to travel to compete in the first place?
Athletics recognises the fastest times (running) to establish records ie WR for 100m etc. Isn't it a good idea to have a record that is not completely out of the realms of achievement for 99% of the participants? Joe Bloggs in Indiana can train on his 25/50/100 cone course alone and work towards a benchmark, how is he, a guy with a full-time job and not much holiday time, going travel the globe racing to gain a World record by being World Champ for the most wins? How can he compare his race performance to Jason's?
In terms of exposure for the sport, connection with something the general public can relate to (like Guinness) surely can only help improve its popularity, and personally I think slalom needs that.

Just another view...

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:46 pm

Martin Drayton wrote:Firstly there ARE Ski and Snowboard Records for Speed Attained, set at the KL Course at Les Arcs, France..
That's SPEED, right? As in KPH or MPH? Skateboarding also does that. What's the world record KPH through gates over a given distance on a snowboard or a pair of skis??
Last edited by Wesley Tucker on Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Martin Drayton » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:12 am

Wesley, just read the rest of that paragraph again...and the rest of my post.
Thanks

Martin.

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Post by James Peters » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:56 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote: Oh, and these are WINS IN RACES, not overalls for the weekend....We should also recognize this achievement.

....(Guinness World Records are) not, however, the type of records the ISSA should be calculating. Let's determined who's the record holders based on performances at OUR SANCTIONED EVENTS.
Wesley, I understood this thread as a proposal to organize and track records on very focused/specced out trials, something basically new for ISSA to consider.

Which seems like a reasonable addition to what I think is already being fairly well tracked, but just not very heavily promoted, publicized, and revered throughout the world: the World Rankings... isn't that where everyone's trend of wins in races is being tracked, over time?

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Post by Wesley Tucker » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:34 pm

James Peters wrote: the World Rankings... isn't that where everyone's trend of wins in races is being tracked, over time?
Not necessarily.

The World Ranking is based on points accrued at various events. A third place at a major is will lead to a higher ranking than a win at a Prime. What I'm advocating, though, is the win is a win whether it's a Major, Main or Prime. The most wins is a world record holder.
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Post by James Peters » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:40 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote:Not necessarily.
The World Ranking is based on points accrued at various events. A third place at a major is will lead to a higher ranking than a win at a Prime. What I'm advocating, though, is the win is a win whether it's a Major, Main or Prime. The most wins is a world record holder.
ok, then really what you're advocating is another way of crunching the world rankings numbers -- sounds fine a separate topic/argument...

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:27 pm

Wesley Tucker wrote:The most wins is a world record holder.
It's just a "fun" record for me, but absolutely worth recording. I think it would be fun to add a few more, such as:

- Most wins
- Most entries
- Most entries in a single year (Keith, this one is for you!)
- Highest ranking score (just comparing the number)
- Highest rookie score
- Best ever rookie position
- Biggest increase in ranking position in a single year (excluding rookies)


But I still think that a 100 cone record is more of a real record. The ones we're discussing now are more statistics/number crunching. But it's also a recognition for those worthy of them!

/Jani

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240 million and counting...

Post by Martin Drayton » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:25 pm

Just got the GWR Show DVD from China...Looks pretty cool. It was a featured record on the show and the only one that they showed in two sections.
A mere 240 million more people now know what skateboard slalom is! Here are a couple of screenshots;

Image
Naill demoing an Offset course...

Image
Getting a sponsor plug in...

Image
The run itself.

The full video should be online soon!
Hopefully when everything is said and done, this will have done something to help public awareness of slalom, which for me was the bottom line...
Thanks again to all those who helped, my family also thanks you for helping us on the road to our Green Cards.

Martin.

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Please comment on the structure and wording of the poll

Post by Pat Chewning » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:40 am

I updated the poll in the 1st post of this thread. I think it captures the essence of what proposals have been put forth.

Post here if you have changes to the poll and then I'll set it up (on ISSA-Members-Only forum) once it accurately captures the various proposals.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:04 am

Proposal A, "0-Cone awollance" is not correct. There are 10-Cone awollance


J-Rad

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Post by Pat Chewning » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:06 am

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:Proposal A, "0-Cone awollance" is not correct. There are 10-Cone awollance


J-Rad
Fixed now.

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Post by Pat Chewning » Sat May 17, 2008 4:05 am

VOTING FOR THESE OPTIONS IS NOW OPEN IN THE "ISSA MEMBERS ONLY" FORUM.

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Post by Steve Collins » Sat May 17, 2008 6:31 am

Pat, thanks for taking the initiative to do this.

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100 cone

Post by Richy Carrasco » Tue May 20, 2008 6:47 pm

100 cone , Keep it simple and that way we could all keep record of what was done in the past and challenges for the future , .10 per cone , timer at first and last cone, cone setting to the riders choice, ramp or no but no tow in, We should pick a date for 100 cone challenge weekend around the world so all racers could challenge and maybe set a new record! Oi!

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