[2004] World rankings: Overall

[Ramón Königshausen]

blabla....the season is over....


rmn

[Donald Campbell]

niall,i think sam should get an extra 50 points,same as me,for charging the streets of antibes at night,regardless of traffic and rowdy drivers.we were searching,in typical sportsman style,for a pack of cigarettes,paul,me and sam were desperate for a smoke.after approx 15 miles on board,we finally got a cheap pack at a "cheap" pub for the incredible sale prize of 6.- euros.
so that gives us extra mileage on that contest.since it's common use for airplane tickets to award etra mile points-why not here?

[Niall Horton-Stephens]

Or could you just change Sam back to GBR rather than UK... I rather liked that lofty position...

[Niall Horton-Stephens]

Thanks for your hard work Corky... and for the illumination on Sam vs. my placings... I think however Sam should be penalised for rowdy and drunken behaviour on at least two continents through the year... that's got to be worth at least 34 points...

And yes Mr Gordon, 004, next year... maybe ve vill all be vearing ze lycra... ya...?

Rock on CCR

[Donald Campbell]

tschörmannie siss points
hahahahahahahahaha

[Heiko Schöller]

Hi Corky

I want to check my points just for the fun of it. How many points does everybody get for witch place?
In formula 1 I know 1. place is 10 points and the 2.place is 8points...

Best regards Heiko

[Peter Klang]

Here I go again, sticking my BIG nose way out there.

About the ranking of competitions, Major, main and so on.

I think now, when more skaters travel to compete and more organizers are putting on event, all are in need of guidelines. Why not have a set format for what on organizer must provide (ex prize money). That way an organizer knows what to do if he/she wants to get a Main event. Riders know what event to book in there schedule. Just a thought.

[Sam Gordon]

Ha Ha! Thanks Corky. The CCR boys take top three positions in the GBR amateur rankings. Shopped to the top!



Next year then, Mr H-S?

[Hans Koraeus]

Ok, the rankings are updated with Sam's and Pierre's comments above. I noticed that I had not implemented the maximum 2 DQ point rule in my calculation. There was only one person (Henry Julier) who was touched by this rule so it doesn't seem like many has tried that DQ plan that the French where worried about. And there you see. Something good came out of it. Now the 2 DQ rule is implemented.

Sam, I couldn't resist looking into yours and Niall's rank data. This is something you will be able to do yourselves on the site later. Here are the underlaying data for your 2004 AM ranking points.

Point Place Event - Sam Gordon 1447 points
195 14 Grüningen, SUI
203 12 Cologne, GER
218 9 Antibes, FRA
241 6 Antibes, FRA
295 14 Morro Bay, USA
295 14 Morro Bay, USA

Point Place Event - Niall Horton-Stephens 1414 points
200 4 Brand Hatch, GBR
208 11 Antibes, FRA
210 3 Brand Hatch, GBR
251 5 Antibes, FRA
260 25 Morro Bay, USA
285 16 Morro Bay, USA

There you have it. The reason why you are ahead of Niall. Sam, your Morro Bay Major points was higher than your Cologne Major points. This mean Morro Bay will be counted with Major points and Cologne will be counted with Main points. Seems like you are ahead of Niall about the amount of points you where ahead in Morro Bay. So one could say you did battle it out at the Worlds and that it finished in your advantage. On top of that what I see in the AM ranking you have the number 1 place among the amateur Great Britains. Your slalom travels this year have paid off. Congratulations.

[Hans Koraeus]

Thanks Sam and Pierre for your input. Positive or negative doesn't matter. Critisism is not bad and it often leads to a better result in the end. Hitting down on guys giving critisism is not good even though you don't agree. You might then scare away others who might have had some good ideas as well.

Sam,
Don't be ashamed of your ranking position. You travel around a lot and by that you support the whole slalom scene. Without guys like you the ranking wouldn't be fun anyway. If people think they are better than you they only have to show up at competitions and proove it. I saw that both you and Linford had UK registered as nationality. It will be fixed to the next update.

Pierre,
I have fixed your comments as well.

The Super-G Women results from Antibes 2003 where missing in my database. They are now entered. It moved Alice into a respectable 13:th place in the 2003 Womens ranking. Anne Semay got a boost at the same time by moving up 5 places to a 7:th place.

Patrick Allan moved up from 130 to 110. Jojo Illegale moved up to 19:th in the 2003 Pro ranking (from 28 ).

About the DQ points I have just added a topic in the rules section. Have a look here. There is no risk for people missusing the DQ points. You can only count 2 DQ points into your yearly total ranking point.

About Pro and Am classes there will be a need for more specification with time. For now it is handled by organizers and racers themselves. There have been some grey zones but in general I think it has not been missused either. The day we will be forced to set limits on entrance into competitions we will certainly have to come up with something.

[Pierre Samray]

this is not critical. Anyway you make a great work and I respect it.
I'm just the spokesman of french slalom scene. I try to explain them the world ranking rules.

A lot of french don't understand why there are pro and amateur. I speak about two class as in several sports. But I think we have to explain clearly who is who. Now we have a world ranking , it can permit to make a selection between the 2 class.
By exemple : Only people from the 50 can register in the pro class, and we can give some wild card for national champion or old champion who is back (was in the 10 before). The precedents results must be the way to do the selection between pro and am. Not the racer who choice.
that's my opinion. Most of french follow me on this way.

[Pierre Samray]

Corky. Here is some mistakes I see concerning some racers.
Benjamin Brozzoni is french not swiss.
Alice Arthaud finish 3 in super gs in Antibes in 2003 and she has no results in 2003. (she was second this year)
Patrick Allan is two times in the world ranking : one as Patrick Allan and one as Allan Patrick. Swiss guy Jojo linder and Jojo Illegale are the same personne.

A lot of people in France don't understand you give point to people who doesn't finish their run and be DQ. Easy to note that a guy who has never practice slalom or even never skate can register in pro and go in the start without passing a cone can have a maximum of 1150 points if he participes to one major and 3 mains. so finish about 64 in men and 12 in woman just behind Elena Sidonova.

[Sam Gordon]

Corky, love the rankings because not only does it puts me higher than many skaters who can leave me standing, but also includes just about anyone who has put a foot near a slalom board. Top work!

Could I possibly be ranked under 'GBR' as opposed to 'UK?' At the moment I seem to be in a country of one, so no chance of a skate-off for top position. I'm coming first and last at the same time. It might also shake Niall H-S's lofty position in the UK Ams...!

Also, it seems that you have a listing of results from Dan G at Morro Bay. Is it possible that you could publish these?
Thank you,
Sam.

Corky diligently recording events at the Euro Championships, Koln 2004.

[Hans Koraeus]

Now I have updated the World Ranking database with the results from Morro Bay. There are still a few results missing but nothing that affects the top players.

So Kenny finally didn't get hold of that first place in the 2004 year ranking. This due to Strobels win on the last day TS and Mollicas "not as good as he hoped but still very good" results. He still managed to take 2:nd. Richy had that second place in his hand but lost it on the very last cones in the last final run against Maurus. But Mollica still have a first place to celebrate. He holds the first place in the 4-year ranking (which only holds 2003 and 2004 results for the moment). This year shows how important it is to show up at one of the yearly Majors. Luca would have had a good chance of taking a top placement but now "only" takes 10:th. Luca still holds on to a third place in the 4-year ranking though.

Surprises in top ten this year must be Jason Mitchell, Ramon Königshausen and Chris Barker. Ramon and Chris running as amateur in 2003 shows how good some of the "amatuers" can be. And it's not over. There will be new surprises for 2005 I'm sure. I just have to mention Steve Olson too. He is just outside top 10 with an 11:th place. He doesn't make too much noice of himself but the results speaks for him.

2004 Pro World Ranking
1 Maurus Strobel, SUI
2 Kenny Mollica, USA
3 Richy Carrasco, USA
4 Chris Hart, SUI
5 Jason Mitchell, USA
6 Gary Fluitt, USA
7 Ramón Königshausen, SUI
8 Paul Price, GBR
9 Chris Barker, USA
10 Luca Giammarco, ITA

[John Gilmour]

For those who want to have a look at the World Ranking(s) before Morro Bay the possibility exists. With great programing help from Daniel Poweleit the World Ranking site has taken its first step. For now only the different rankings are shown but more specific results will soon be possible for each event and person in detail. There are still some bugs and incorrect data but in the whole it's ok.

Before looking at the current ranking (2004 up until September) I want to make you aware of the fact that it is a little bit out of balance. Skaters that has still not entered a Major this year (most of those going to Morro Bay) have placements that are lower than expected. But remind youself that they will have a big boost of points after this weekend at the Worlds. Hard to say exactly how much but the majority will have between 500 and 1200 points added.

What you still can make out of the current ranking is that the 2004 season first place is a battle between Maurus Strobel, Kenny Mollica and Richy Carrasco. They are all in Morro Bay to battle it out. Others who will make a great jump up the ranking towards the very top is Jason Mitchell, Gary Fluitt, Chris Barker, Keith Hollien, Steve Olson, Bobby Mandarino, Barrett Deck, Vlad Popov and Michael Dong. As fast as I get the results from Morro Bay I will calculate and publish the final standings.

Have a look at The World Rankings and remember: Lot's of people will have a big point boost the coming weekend in Morro Bay.

The above analysis proved to be relatively accurate in the end.

What is most interesting is the few racers that haven't raced others When they finally meet and IF the ranking somewhat predicts who actually wins.

Of course this can get easily skewed when for instance a highly ranked GS specialist meets a lower ranked but proficient TS specialist for instance in a TS.

I suppose rankings could be created for each event as well. But then we get into the arguements over classifications of event such as a TS that is actuallya GS with a few ts cones or a Hybrid that is called a GS etc. Difficult to do without clear definitions.....it is a shame since slalom racing really wants to have defined rankngs- and for that the timer is king.

[Ramón Königshausen]

Funny. Same results as one of the disciplines in the Major in Cologne, Germany earlier this year. Maurus 1:st and Price 3:rd.

Oh, cool! That means I'm 2:nd! Am I?

rmn

[Hans Koraeus]

Just waiting for the official results to be able to calculate everything correctly but manually with what I know this is what I get out of it.

Pro World Rank after Morro Bay (Not official!)
1 Maurus Strobel, SUI 4220 (place unchanged)
2 Kenny Mollica, USA 4112 (2 up from 4:th place)
3 Richy Carrasco, USA 4060 (3 up from 6:th)
4 Chris Hart, SUI 3864 (2 down from 2:nd, point unchanged)

If Richy would have won against Strobel in the TS final he still would not have beaten Strobel in the ranking. With Strobels second place he would have gained less points but still enough to be ahead of Richy. But he would have taken the 2:nd place in the 2004 season Pro ranking. As it is now Mollica is taking the number two spot.

But as I can't say enough. When I get hold of the official result lists we will have the correct points. I might have done mistakes calculating by hand above.

[Hans Koraeus]

This is as fast as it gets. Just heard the final TS runs live on the phone. (Gesmers). Final between Richy Carrasco and Maurus Strobel. Runner up final between Keith Hoolien and Paul Price. With Henry Hesters commentary Strobel managed to keep his qualifying 1:st into a final world champ title. Finally, for him. But it was not heading that way at all. Richy had a big lead going into the second run. Strobel had a good start but took two cones early on. Richy seemed to play it safe but at the end he lost control and run over a bunch of cones and DQ'd. Almost the same thing happened in the runner up final. Hoolien with a good advantage but DQ let Paul take the third. Funny. Same results as one of the disciplines in the Major in Cologne, Germany earlier this year. Maurus 1:st and Price 3:rd.

[Hans Koraeus]

TS rumour 1: Strobel first after qualification. Yeah!

TS rumour 2: Stride 2:nd after qualification!? What timing system are they using over there?

[Hans Koraeus]

Just saw a correct top 10 list of the cyber slalom. That made some changes in the temporary ranking above but the conclusion is the same. If any of Mollica, Strobel, Carrasco, Fluitt or Mitchell will be the winners of the TS it will take them to the very top of the ranking. If it will be enough for first place will then mostly depend of what place Mollica will have. If he is 2:nd or 3:rd it might still not be enough for the others.

No news on the TS yet...

[Hans Koraeus]

After some more snippets of information from the Saturday slalom there are already some interesting conclusions.

Mollica have managed to take home a 3:rd and a 4:th place to take the lead with only 27 points. Not much but enough for the moment. For Strobel to come back he has to place 5:th or better on Sundays TS. Not impossible so it's not over yet. The other ones who could threathen Mollica if they win the TS is Carrasco, Mitchell or Fluitt. That's the only threats to Mollica as I can see.


Pro World Rank after some results from Super-G, Cyber and Special slalom
1 Kenny Mollica, USA 4112 (3 up from 4:th place)
2 Maurus Strobel, SUI 4085 (1 down from 1:st, point unchanged)
3 Chris Hart, SUI 3864 (1 down from 2:nd, point unchanged)
4 Richy Carrasco, USA 3820 (2 up from 6:th)
5 Jason Mitchell, USA 3778 (3 up from 8:th)
6 Gary Fluitt, USA 3771 (5 up from 11:th)
7 Ramon Königshausen, SUI 3625 (4 down from 3:rd, point unchanged)
8 Luca Giammarco, USA 3375 (3 down from 5:th, point unchanged)
9 Michael Dong, USA 3319 (22 up from 31)

Many points missing so no use trying to rank any longer. After the above we have a group with
- Barret Deck, USA
- Chris Barker, USA
- Steve Olson, USA
- Marcus Seyffarth, SWE
- Paul Price, GBR


Once again. The more rumours I get the more accurate I can make it. All calculations are only temporary and calculated by hand. Lot's of results still missing. Waiting for complete result lists for official results.

[Hans Koraeus]

Results starts coming in but nothing official yet. With what I have and some manual calculations this is what I get out of it so far.

Pro World Rank after some results from Super-G and Cyber
1 Maurus Strobel, SUI 4085 (unchanged)
2 Jason Mitchell, USA 3890 (6 up from 8:th!)
3 Chris Hart, SUI 3864 (1 down from 2:nd, point unchanged)
4 Kenny Mollica, USA 3820 (place unchanged)
5 Richy Carrasco, USA 3720 (1 up from 6:th)
6 Ramon Königshausen, SUI 3625 (3 down from 3:rd, point unchanged)
7 Luca Giammarco, USA 3375 (2 down from 5:th, point unchanged)
8 Gary Fluitt, USA 3343 (3 up from 11:th)
9 Marcus Seyffarth, SWE (1 up from 10:th)

The longer I go the more it get unsure depending on all points I don't have but from here on it's a fight between many...
Paul Price, Barret Deck, Steve Olson.

Great climbers
Tay Hunt up 35 (from 55 to around 20)
Chris Chaput up 25 (from 62 to around 37)
Mike Maysey up 22 (from 67 to around 45)
Michael Dong up 11 (from 31 to around 19)
Barret Deck up 8 (from 22 to around 14)

The more rumours I get the more accurate I can make it. All calculations are only temporary and calculated by hand. Waiting for complete result lists for official results.

[Hans Koraeus]

For those who want to have a look at the World Ranking(s) before Morro Bay the possibility exists. With great programing help from Daniel Poweleit the World Ranking site has taken its first step. For now only the different rankings are shown but more specific results will soon be possible for each event and person in detail. There are still some bugs and incorrect data but in the whole it's ok.

Before looking at the current ranking (2004 up until September) I want to make you aware of the fact that it is a little bit out of balance. Skaters that has still not entered a Major this year (most of those going to Morro Bay) have placements that are lower than expected. But remind youself that they will have a big boost of points after this weekend at the Worlds. Hard to say exactly how much but the majority will have between 500 and 1200 points added.

What you still can make out of the current ranking is that the 2004 season first place is a battle between Maurus Strobel, Kenny Mollica and Richy Carrasco. They are all in Morro Bay to battle it out. Others who will make a great jump up the ranking towards the very top is Jason Mitchell, Gary Fluitt, Chris Barker, Keith Hollien, Steve Olson, Bobby Mandarino, Barrett Deck, Vlad Popov and Michael Dong. As fast as I get the results from Morro Bay I will calculate and publish the final standings.

Have a look at The World Rankings and remember: Lot's of people will have a big point boost the coming weekend in Morro Bay.

[Hans Koraeus]

It is up to each region to set the world ranking statuses on their own competitions. (See the region sections for this). They should know the best. The idea is to set the statuses in advance letting people have the chance to plan their season travels. Also to make sure top racers are sure to turn up for the most "important" world ranking races of the year.

In 2003 this was not possible. And only to some degree in 2004. But that is the goal. If some region want to change statuses for their 2003 competitions there is no problem with this from my part.

Putting the World Ranking Proposal in the Slalom! magazine was a way to reach out to more slalom skaters. This has apparently been the case and of course some will have strong opinions about it. That is normal, good and what it was intended for.

The world ranking is a mix of skill and attendence. So you can't just say that this guy is before me in the ranking but I'm better. It may very well be so, but the other guy maybe has been competing more and then naturally has more points. The question is how much attendence should play-in compared to skill. I have proposed a minimum of going to 4 competitions racing in at least 2 disciplines per year. I don't think this is too much to ask for for someone who wants to get good placements in a world ranking. Once this first basic goal is achieved the skill will show off much better. You should even be very careful comparing racers that has less than the 8 results if you only want to compare true world ranking slalom skills.

[John Gilmour]

CB,

I can't say I am sure as to why Hans chose WLAC races to be worth fewer points than 'da farm. IMHO I think it is likely that he took a few things into account.

I've raced both at WLAC and the farm. They differ in a few ways, from my point of view. WLAC as a venue suffers from lesser quality pavement- and for TS I would call the surface marginal. The GS requires a good skill level as the hill is crowned and also rough and steep. So in terms of venue quality likely the farm wins out. For TS at the farm you can set a course where skilled racers can separate out from the pack with much higher speeds and very high technical difficulty at the farm. At WLAC you can set a TS course that is difficult in that the surface will make it harder to make, but the poor surface quality limits the technical course setting. In GS, WLAC is certainly more "Hairball" mostly due to the surface and plunging crowned pitch, but the speeds for top racers are comparable for well set GS courses for both the farm and WLAC. Likely there are better contests on the West Coast in terms of venue and attendance than WLAC so WLAC was not awarded as high status as other West coast comps. Awarding a higher status to a comp would hopefully increase attendance for that race in that region...and you wouldn't want to push even more skaters to a venue that was not as good as another one. Don't get me wrong- I personally enjoyed WLAC myself very much (Like the 3 hills in one place aspect a lot) , but I would rather skate in better California venues until it gets a repaving ( a repaved WLAC would greatly increase its appeal for everyone- you could have a sick tech ts on the buttboard hill- and even wilder GS courses on the GS hill). Looking at the skill level in both WLAC and the farm- I think many riders would be surprised at the Skill level of the racers at the farm 3. I knew I was. The GS race was difficult as it got very difficult to hold on as the speed increased and Dong and Noah and many others were riding extremely well that day. Kenny Mollica was not riding as well as he usually does and yet I think he was surprised not to Podium. I think if we had seen more West Coast racers show up that day- the results would likely have not shifted much due to high technical nature of the courses(as techTS is practiced more on the East Coast), and that the surface allowed for super high pumping speeds by many racers- certainly- it was the best I have ever seen the East Coast riders skate, spectators were amazed. This is reflected in large time spreads. As for single lane evnts- I don't think people missed the Dual racing much as the hill quaility allowed for some very high level racing. As for being a limited event, many events are limited...but I never heard TK to Tway turn away any top level riders. They just limited it so in case there were unforseen delays- all races would be able to be completed. So in that respect attendance was only limited for c-group racers. Duals racing will be at this years Farm race.

(Also in terms of ranking- if all races were single track, it might be easier to mix classes and get more definitive results than with duals)

I think awarding a contest a status depends somewhat on those Venue quality factors. There are only so many races that are given high status in each region with the ones in each region that are best attended with good venue and organization being awarded the most points.

Also to encourage travel, each region gets a certain number of high status competitions awarded to it.

To recognize the higher concentration of strong riders on the West Coast both in numbers and in some cases skill level, The West Coast gets more competition points awarded to it than any other region. The idea being that if the points allocated were INSTEAD exactly the same..... we wouldn't get the results we want to see. If two skaters with Exactly the same near top skill level were to race, one Predominantly on the West Coast and the other predominately on the East coast we would expect to see lower points earned by the West coast racer if there were more higher skilled racers than him competing for the same number of points as on the East Coast.

To try and balance this out- Hans awarded more points to California races. The idea being that two identical twins with each being on separate coasts skating separately most of the time- but perhaps meeting in the Majors- would score nearly identical.

The one place where this could have a problem is if there was one exceptionally strong West Coast racer that never lost a race he entered in his region. He would garner more points than his identical twin on the East Coast. Mostly because he would sweep 3 main and 3 prime events- not leaving any points for his breathren. Again only the top 8 race events would count, he would still tie his identical twin on the East Coast and the Major events they would meet and determine a winner. The other points left for other West Coast racers would be usurped by this racer (Which could be a strategy for him) making it harder to catch up. On the East Coast the racers would not have any top spots left either- but for their size talent pool this would be normal. A West Coaster sweeping all of his events would not allow another East Coaster to travel West to try and score mose more points.

AS we have several disciplines Super G, GS, TS, (cyber etc...) you may have more than just a few first place finishes available to fight over anyway. A race having all of the above events would offer a total of 4 first place finishes of which 2 per contest can go towards a ranking.

So at such a race you could Launch two racers with perfect points.

(I didn't propose this system, but the more I think through the possibilities- the better thought out it seems, I do think the Pro Am separation is needed and in regards to Open races I think it would be possible to look at the number of pros attending and perhaps weight it accordingly- or discount points for a certain percentage. We should look to other sports and see what they do in these instances, no need to reinvent the wheel.)

[Jeff Goad]

ya, what about chicago and st louis? LOL

[Chris Barker]

I wouldn't have known about these funky ratings, nor would anyone be arguing about them, if it wasn't put in SLALOM! magazine. That's the real problem. I get the feeling it was all invented in a dark room and published in a sneaky way. Some people in the top 30 like Jani, Stride, Parsons, and Ohm will like their padded positions. Other top pros like Fluitt, Wahl, Sherman, O'Shei, and Peters would be wondering how they are ranked behind myself, Wallstreet Brewington, and Stanziale, at positions 31-33.

I'm all for encouraging travel, with or without points. Wahl and Fluitt make good points, maybe you should work through the emotions and see the wisdom.

Kosick vs Noah Example? Maybe their order is pretty close. Noah beat Kosick in both TS and GS at last WLAC I attended. I beat Kosick in GS and finished right behind him in TS. I think we also split in my previous WLAC/JPL adventure. So I think Noah, Kosick, and myself will ride pretty close at any race we all attend and the rankings have us all within 16 spots of each other.

What sucks is that Fluitt won the TS, but somehow Corky decided that race wasn't "good enough" for World Ranking Points. However, the earlier race I attended did count for a while. I think I got some points for that originally and then you guys changed your system and I dropped out of the top-30. So it didn't do any good rankings-wise for Fluitt, Noah, Smith, and myself to travel to JPL/WLAC for that race. Sure was a lot of fun though.

What still stinks is how the ranking points and race classifications were dealt out afterwards. DaFarm got big points, same as Breck I believe. Yet that was a single-lane push-start race that was actually closed off to most outsiders. Gorman had 2-3 JPL single lane events, with top riders present. Did any of those count for points? What about the whole WLAC series? How many of those counted and how did you decide which ones? I believe most of those races had a field at least as strong as DaFarm.

As a top open racer, the reason I traveled to LA for those events was to get an idea of how I would stack up against some of the nation's best riders. I am looking forward to Hood where the field includes Mollica, Carrasco, TK, Dong, Noah, Fluitt all in a *single* group. Heck, I might get a chance at knocking off the guy that makes my trucks. It would be nice if some of the SoCal boys would travel, but looks like it will just be the Brown Bomber carrying the flag. How are the points going to be broken up there Corky?

I asked you about Breck, but you don't have a good idea on that one either. The whole idea is to have the highest competition levels. Maybe Bert (Kosick) will make it out again. Either way, he will have to earn a top-16 bracket spot since that will all be based on qualifying times each day.

I think LaCosta and Worlds are the only races in the USA this year where a rider will have to declare Pro or Open. How is that going to work?

Anyway, since you decided to publish this whole points system in a world-wide slalom magazine before all the bugs/arguments were worked out, you should expect to have pissed some people off. Nobody would care except they are now in SLALOM! magazine, in fact right there on the cover it says "World Rankings" but should say "SlalomSkateboarder.Com World Rankings"

[Etienne de Bary]

Please feel free to have strong opinions on the ranking here but for personal issues I propose the Dark side of the cone.

Maybe we should start a new "low comments & judgements about people you know nothing about" topic instead ?

[Hans Koraeus]

This topic is intended for ranking comments like "Why is Mr X before me in the ranking?", "How is my point calculated?", "The ranking sucks!" and other ranking related subjects.

Please feel free to have strong opinions on the ranking here but for personal issues I propose the Dark side of the cone. It has been surprisingly quiet for a while by the way. Maybe it became all peace and love over there...

[Wesley Tucker]

I must digress. I do belive Octane Sports (Michael Stride) did pay for a month or two. Thank you, Mr. Stride.

But since England isn't considered part of the "international forum" or European slalom skating and is pretty much on its own, then I don't know whether or not to consider Michael's contribution as really being "international?"

After all, as we all know, "international" means whoever etienne du bary recognizes as someone who agrees with his rather narrow world view.

[Wesley Tucker]

Is this Arab again, or have we got another psycho ?

Etienne,

This is neither insulting nor provocative. Just rather pathetic.

By the by, since this is a "moderated international forum," then maybe we can see in the near future some international participants footing the bill? I see month after month after month one American after another supporting this website with their wallets. (Vlad Popv, Howard Gordon, Eric Groff, Joe Iacovelli and Rick Stanziale immediately come to mind.)

When can we expect to see a few international participants help pay the rent so Jani and Adam can continue to do their good and edited work?

[Etienne de Bary]

Is this Arab again, or have we got another psycho ?
We are not interested in your suburban redneck hairstyles, pants size and sexual behaviors preferences, mister, whatever your religious, sexual, racial fantasies. This is a moderated international forum, there is a lot of messy North Californian forums for people like you elsewhere.

[Bill Wahl]

etienne de bary....

don't waste your time or effort...you have missed the point completely. Corky has decided to rank all the world slalom racers without starting an organization, communicating and building a system with integrity and accuracy. He has looked to only a few skaters for some advise and annoyed the whole slalom world by printing the list in a publication. Why bother printing a ranking list if it isn't correct? Corky already admits it is a rough draft or whatever.....I am entitled to articulate however and whatever I like. If it displeases you, then you have the right to do or say what you like as well. God Bless America for the right to free speech. Because there is no doubt in my mind you have a set of roller blades in your closet next to some spandex pants and a pink ribbon for your girly hair faggot...

[Etienne de Bary]

One interesting thing that was relayed to me...someone told me that Avalon Sales in France exceeded the sales from within the entire USA. To me that is good news (is it true Dan?- It certainly surprised me.), as the gear spreads competition should intensify.
[...]
I do think some of Hans structure in the ranking will encourage some California racers to travel to at one race outside of their home base. Reasonably speaking...I don't think this is out of the question for the top ten fastest racers from California (as many have already traveled). East Coast racers will have to take at least two trips. Some will have to travel even more (like Kenny Mollica)- or grow their local scene and host a contest there. Kenny slaloms alone.

This is totally off topic but i'm so happy you bring this: if you could have come to the PSWC this year (we did miss you and Kenny) you would have seen that crowd of ams ! ... and you know what that spot is like... not for beginners like me. Since we are mainly converting DH racers and generally skilled skaters, these young people improve very quickly, and Chris Hart does the same kind of job in Switzerland.

Bill Wahl, whatever you have to say, if you go calling Corky funny names i will work on yours, i think there is a huge potential...
As a matter of fact it is hard to understand if you exactly dislike the fact that there is top riders out of California, or either doubt there is...
If it was the second option, it might be wise from you to question those who have actually fought against euro racers, and ask them if they have found it so easy to beat Elena or Luca, or even Nastassia, Chris Hart, Maurus, or even Airflow team teenager Manuel Schaub... As a matter of fact, it might very well be their inner feeling that you are making yourself ridiculous in their name.

[John Gilmour]

One thing that people should realize is that I am not ranked 3rd in the world in slalom. Hans ahs stated clearly that it is the UNoffical ranking - or inoffical whatever.

He is just trying to start a ranking system that lasts for more than a single season.

Wahl talks about starting from Zero every season. Well that would be a seasonal ranking. Almost like a series ranking. But then think of how much weight teh Worlds would have on that particular ranking. If by a fluke you did well at a single World Championship and then poorly in others...you would do well for that particular year and then drop off the radar.

This ranking is looking for more "career consistentcy" than that of a single season.

As for being democratic- we should find a way to elect a few representives to reason this out. And for that matter future questions on rules and such.

Perhaps a representive from each skating region...We should all think about this more. A list of questions could be debated- and finally we could vote.

One interesting thing that was relayed to me...someone told me that Avalon Sales in France exceeded the sales from within the entire USA. To me that is good news (is it true Dan?- It certainly surprised me.), as the gear spreads competition should intensify.


Bill I have nothing to do with the world ranking- I, like yourself, am making suggestions as to what I think makes sense. I wouldn't tackle that workload with a ten foot pole.
I do think some of Hans structure in the ranking will encourage some California racers to travel to at one race outside of their home base. Reasonably speaking...I don't think this is out of the question for the top ten fastest racers from California (as many have already traveled). East Coast racers will have to take at least two trips. Some will have to travel even more (like Kenny Mollica)- or grow their local scene and host a contest there. Kenny slaloms alone.

[Hans Koraeus]

Trying to move over discussion to the rules topic.

[Gary Fluitt]

I haven't had time to catch up on this whole thread, but I have some thoughts to share.

1. You can't merge Ams and Pros into the same ranking system. Have you heard the term "Comparing apples to oranges"? They must be separated or the whole thing is irrelevant. Can you imagine World Cup Skiing rankings merging Juniors and Pro in the same system?
In races where pros and opens are racing together in one big love fest, the Ams are competing with pros for the same few points. The Ams are not going to do as well as the pros presumably. So their points are not going to be very high either. It's a level playing field then. You get what you get when you enter a heterogeneous race (pros and Ams racing together).

Personally I think the pro/open distinction is pointless. There is not enough money in the pros to even call it that. Very few races actually separate these riders so how is your level determined? Self proclamation?
There are better ways to group riders of like ability to make for good expert racing, good sport racing, and good recreational racing.
I know this has little to do with Corky's points system, but it's bugging me.

2. You must announce the points criteria start of the season. You can't arbitrarily pick them out after the season is over. This will no doubt leave some races out of the points, but pardon the pun, that IS the point. Let us know what you're going to count and what doesn't count so I can choose wisely.

3. Points don't mean much unless there is money or prizes involved. Paul Dunn won the 2002 FCR series, and didn't get a penny for that title. Who cares? Paul does no doubt, but it didn't have much impact on his career. He retired the following year. The American Cup series will pay something to the series winner. It may not be much, and it may come out of my pocket, but there will be some meaning to the points winner.


So in SUMMARY- Don't mix Pros with Ams, Announce the Points Races in advance of the season, Make the points count toward SOMETHING.

Wahl - Come to Hood. I want to watch you skate that Ramp in the old lumber mill again. You were killing it 2002.

[Bill Wahl]

How come an Am rider can be higher ranked than a Pro rider?
It is possible because the Am points table overlap the Pro points table a little bit. To simplify it, if you are in top 3 you may get more points than some of the lower placed Pro's.

Let's take an example. Noah Heinle has been racing as Am in 2003 and is ranked 14:th. Brent Kosick who races as Pro is in 19th.

In the Noah - Kosick case if we compare the 2 big races they both entered it looks like this
Morro Bay
Noah Am 2 and 3 (870 points), Kosick Pro 18 and 25 (860)
Breckenridge
Noah Am 1 and 1 (660), Kosick Pro 11 and 12 (523)

This post makes me sick!. What an idiot Corky is. Racing as an Am is completely different that racing as a Pro. Times don't mean a thing!. Kosick is one of the top GS racers on the West Coast. And he has proven it at La Coast, WLA etc.... His times at Morro Bay and his few races entered mean nothing considering the competition he has raced against at La Costa, WLA and JPL. Noahs points in a Am bracket should have NO impact on his placing in the Pro bracket. He should enter a ZERO and be forced to earn his Pro Status/Ranking...Kosick no doubt should not only be ranked higher than Noah but higher in the Pro standings period based off of his race results against a higher caliber of west coast pros.

[Bill Wahl]

Corky,

Your Euro lovers are not complaining because they know that there are only a handful that can really be compeititive in the Pro/Am divisions on steep grades. So whatever thier placings are I'm sure they are creaming thier tight euro jeans over it and not going to stir the pot fearing their talent won't even be recognized because they are less likely to travel then we are. Like I said only a hand full and you aren't one of them. I really like how you have ranked your races and yourself. Nice touch. Couldn't be further from reality. Like I say Kooky. There is no shame being an Am. I know it doesn't look as good on paper being seperated from the Pros and thus really showing where you stand. But it needs to be done. You need to rethink your very flawed system.

[Bill Wahl]

John,

Regarding the surfing ranking system. There is more than one competitive surfing association. I surfed in different west coast series over the years, but never qualified for the elite top 44 who surf competitive at world wide locations. To reach that level you have to qualify in a smaller yet very competitive series. Aside from that series there are also other series for the non world travelers who have a career or are older but like to remain completitive from time to time. Each year/series everyone started with zero points and your finish determined your ranking. The top 44 got a specific seading because they out rank the rest of the pros in some of the bigger Pro/Am events. This required a lessor ranked pro to move through the qualifying rounds and surf much more to be given the chance to go up against the top ranked 44. If you jumped into the pro field from an Am status you started with zero points and there was no transfer points or win requirements because the truth tells all. If you aren't ready you will get spanked and sent home very quickly. No age limits etc in Pro Surfing. But as an Am there is. I don't believe we can apply many surfing rules and ranking to slalom racing. I believe we could do better by taking a closer look to the skiing/snow boarding associatations. I don't think we will ever have the world wide mix of pros from Europe and the US racing each other. I'm sure this is Corkys intention, but a very unrealistic one. That is why I have been saying we should approach this differently. Hence the word WE not Corky and his small bunch of clowns who are deciding the future of world slalom ranking. I'm wondering why there isn't an organization and a democratic system to creating something that can maybe have some substance and integrity. But then again what am I thinking when I can't even post my feelings or articulate as I like without being censored because some fat foolio thinks skateboarding needs to be PG13. What a dream world you old f#¤kers are living in. Skateboarding will never change. You only fuel the fire by being little girls. John that was for you....xoxoxoxoxosillybilly.

[Etienne de Bary]

The age limit is set to 45 and up for the moment

That leaves me little time...

[Hans Koraeus]

I will start responding on world ranking rules comments in the World Ranking rules topic.

This topic was intended more for ranking comments like "Why is Mr X before me in the ranking?", "How is my point calculated?" and "The ranking sucks!".

Funny is that I haven't got a single comment from Europeans that the ranking in 2003 is skewed in the USA (Californian) direction. This because of the worlds in California was the largest point producer. Never heard any complaints about Maurus Strobel and Chris Hart (some of the fastest skaters in the world) are ranked low. And they have never complained about it. They just realize that, "Hey, seems like I didn't compete enough last year. Better change that for 2004." And so they have. They don't automatically blame the ranking for not having a higher placement in the ranking. They blame themselves.

All this about I beat him so I should be higher ranked is so hard to judge. I did beat Ramon Königshausen last year. Now he is one of the fastest racers in Europe. Unfortunatley I'm far from that myself. Some competitions you do well other you might not. It's so complicated that I will not even try and explain it all. It may depend on the discipline, the course, the weather, you traveled all day before, it's your home spot, got a new board, wrong wheels a.s.o. a.s.o.

The ranking will reflect the world ranking rules. If you are a very good slalomer and you have competed the minimum requested of you then I would be surprised if you where not at the top of this ranking. If you haven't competed enough your point will not be accurate. The average point can give a hint of the caliber of the racer but having few competitions may skew even that. Tay Hunt for example has the best average of everyone since he did very well in his only counted competition last year, the Worlds. This doesn't mean he would have been number 1 if he had competed more. The more you compete the harder it is to maintain a high average. His "true" ranking is imossible to know until he competes more.

It's true that the top amateurs can be placed before pro's in the ranking. Or even an amateur that competes a lot can be before a pro that competes rarely. In the second case it's not the am's fault but rather the pro's fault for not competing enough. In the first case an Am running home a lot of top placements will get well awarded. Better than some of the medium pro's. But this you will not be able to do for more than one season. Beacuse then it's up to the pro's and prove yourself. It may also be a good thing to show that it is not because you call yourself a pro that you will be faster than all the better Am skaters. Even though you will always have an advantage racing pro in general. I think this is ok. If you want to call yourself a pro and race with the pro's you will be awarded positivly even though you may be slower than many Am's.

The so called "Legends" class already exist in the ranking rules. The age limit is set to 45 and up for the moment but we don't have a good measurement of what the age limit should be. For the moment some of the fastest skaters out there are quite old...

[Etienne de Bary]

Thanx John for your moderate point of view once again, of course for some it must be hard to understand why this "world ranking" is quite unlike the "World Championship" results. There are top racers all over this planet, and that is why Corky had to build a system that would transcend local hierarchies. That is an achievement in itself, and it is surprisingly acurate too as a matter of fact, and it will become more acurate as more results will be considered (though a listing by average value would be close to my subjective idea, maybe I do not value consistancy that much ?)
This site is a bit "overmoderated" and it probably has to be, as long as US people as average will have this "patriotic" relational problem, ... so to keep this forum international, moderators have no other solution than erase all agressive declarations. (But maybe the real problem is that everybody is a bit too polite to their potential sponsor, when not mad with rage, isn't it ?)
California hosts quite a bunch of top bravest pro racers, ... but I wouldn't hesitate saying the same of the Swiss/Italian axe, and there is the British too, and so and so...
Bill, your "Joe beats Jack" considerations have no value, some guys who are in the 30th rank or so have beaten Luca, Kenny or John once or twice, it does not mean they are number one.

[John Gilmour]

Ha ha ha- I missed the swearing. I personally think the swearing is funny- though I cringe when trying to refer parents to any site with bad language.

Anyhow- Bill I totally see your point. But I would want to discourage people from entering the pro ranks too early. Not giving any AM points might make a person enter the pro division early (And by definition he enters at the bottom) when in actuality- they could never win an AM race.

I understand you paid your dues going from AM surfing status to PRO by having to start over. Did you have to WIN a AM surfing event before you declared PRO? If so...then starting with zero points is OK...aaaaaaaaaaaaaand likely the best thing as you suggested. If you don't have to win an AM event before going pro....then I think Points could be pro rated to give racers a better option of waiting until thier skill level improves before going pro.

Were you happy with the Surfing ranking? Would it be applicable to our ranking? And if so do you think it would work better? I am not familiar with it. (I am curious as what happens when you have a concentration of surfing talent in a small place, can those competitors stay ..... and still do well in the ranking and not travel?)

In reference to separateing the disciplines... IT is a little difficult when some disciplines might be misnamed. The Bob Turner Memorial for instance at best could be called Hybrid or straight GS (Oxymoron)- ISSA tried to define the disciplines- but again it becomes difficult. Should a crappy GS on a flat hill be given the same weight as a good gs on a steep hill? Should a slow non technical TS grunter be given the same weight as a high speed tech ts on a steep hill? It is hard to judge....so the contests are weighted as opposed to the disciplines. Some Euro GS I've run would pass for some California TS...the lines are blurred.


I am impressed you are so into the ranking and looking for a solution- and I think if you keep at it and others join in- we may see some ideas that we may not have considered yet.

Basically- we have a bunch of results and we are trying to make sense of them as best we can. Nothing is perfect....but we hope to get as close as possible. I think it possible to get closer than what Hans has at the moment...but I also believe that as more results come in and more racers adapt to the system- Hans' system will yield a more accurate ranking the other previous rankings. Also Hans is open to suggestions and his goal is the same as yours-...an accurate ranking. He just hasn't had time to do all the possibilities. The goal of his ranking is not just to rank the skaters but to encourage skaters to go to more competitions- and not limit themselves to skating in their backyard (remember my Swiss and Austria Ski team analogy?)


BTW- if some AM points transfer......it is possible for the AM to still be at the very bottom of the pros, but ready to move up....and not from zero.

For instance...if Two AMS decided to enter Pro say Chris Stepanek (Ranked 129) with 620 points (2 comps) and Glenn S (ranked 283) 244 points (2 comps)- you wouldn't want both of them to start at zero you would expect the one with more points to have a bit of a lead. Certainly you could start them at Zero- but this would result in a skewed ranking. If we were to reduce their AM points by 1/2 in pro class even Chris Stepanek wouldn't rank higher than #235 Pär Svensson of Sweden- so certainly no Pro would be displaced by these ams taking 1/2 of their points with them.

I'm sure this system will improve with time. It is my hope that the ranking works way way down the list. It is far more exciting to move up from #312 to #89 than to go from #9 to #8.

[Bill Wahl]

Jani,

You have just stepped way out of line censoring my posts. For the sake of "generations to come" you should leave it in. Your weak ideals of what is right or pleasant to you is not in our futures best interest. Your idea of a "Tidy" forum is only YOUR Opinion. NCDSA has made an absolulte joke of itself by beginning any sort of censorship. You only make things worse by empowering yourself and others to "Tidy" things up. Since you think it is important to do this. Then I have just as much right to enforce my opinion on you anyway I desire. And I promise you it won't be in a literacy fashion. You have now made it a personal issue by doing this. I don't give a F---K what you think about my posts or whatever I decide to write in this forum, so don't bother.

[Rick Stanziale]

The quick and dirty solution is to sort racers by their average score (something that was vehemently opposed to when I applied averaging to FCR totals).

[Jani Soderhall]

Bill,

I like reading your point of view, but I have edited out all your foul language.

Like it or not but we decided to keep this site somewhat tidy for generations to come.

/Jani

[Bill Wahl]

Since I'm on a rambling roll. Let me please just mention this opinion or idea of mine that I beleive would have been a better start to the ranking mess Corky has started.

Put every Am and Pro racer seperated in thier categories on a list. Next to each racers name allow the appropriate space to rank them in each disipline. TS, Hybrid, GS, Super G and Banked Slalom. The ranking is done by every slalom racer in the world based on thier knowledge of the competitor. If they do not know enough to fairly rank the competitor then a default number would be given. Something low but fair. Total the ranking points and give each competitor their total "Value"

Remember this is just to start things from ground zero. So when Kenny Mollica enters the JPL race of a high Value ranking along with the likes of Ritchy, Steve Olson, Chicken etc...All with thier respective rankings. This would then give a total value to the JPL event based off of a democratic system, instead of someone like Corky who making bad assumtions as what the ranking should be. The competition is what should drive the value of each event. Not the size of the event, the region or even the amount of competitors. Perhaps the Eurpeans can have a seperate Value system and when they or us decide to travel then perhaps points can be added to thier "Value" becuase they have now helped mix the field of racers from abroad...This is just an idea..something I think would have been a better start than just Corky making assumtions about races and thier rankings...So take it or leave it...I'll still be racing .

[Bill Wahl]

Combining Ams with Pros is completely wrong. Gilmour made some very good points. From my experience I have never seen Ams combined in points with Pros. I have competed in both skateboarding and surfing in Pro/Am events where I was given the chance to measure my talent against others. A good example of this would be JPL or WLA. Even at a venue such as WLA an Am should be awarded for his placing even if he is not in the top Three. He should be awarded seperately for his efforts against the other Ams. So if he was six among a field of twenty but five pros were ahead of him, he still should be awarded first place as the Am and given equal points as the first place Pro. (Pro and Ams in seperate categories should recieve equal points. Keep it simple) The idea of a Pro Am is not to mix the points between the competitors. It is to allow the Ams an opportunity to measure thier talent against the pros on that given day, thus earning their respective Am points. They should still be seperate. Regarding an Am changing his status. It should be a clean slate. There should be NO points given to the Am. He is responsible for his discision and it should be timely. He may be more talented, but his racing circumstances, competitors and many many more factors will be different and this should all be considered. He should not enter into the Pro division with a ranking other than LAST. When I started surfing Pro events ten years ago I dropped $125.00 to get spanked and sent home after my first 20 minute heat. No complaints, I just worked harder at it and eventually made it to several finals. Now that I am older slower etc.. It only made sense for me to drop my Pro status and enter the Grand Masters division which is 37 and older. It is still very very competitive because everyone is so experienced and strong. But it is still not at the Pro level. So all this rambling can perhaps be looked at as constructive. I don't know, but I believe it supports Gilmours idea of a "Lengends" field or as surfing would call it Grand Masters. Reinstating yourself back as a pro should have its requirements as well. It should not be as simple as ordering an HBO fight the day before. A minimum amount of time should be required or certain race results. This would not allow locals to go pro just prior to thier hometown race.

[John Gilmour]

Hans,

I see what you mean about riders who are on the Cusp of going pro.

I see a few ways to do this.


One perhaps is to have the racer start with a clean slate once he goes pro. It might be more frustrating to do this- but the impetus would be that racers would gear up to switch in a particular season and really make the effort to go to many comps that first season to move up.

(Or perhaps one way to give an Am a "running start" would be to transfer only 75% of his points once he turns pro. In this way it is not a waste of money in earning points by racing in AM first...which of course should happen) Ideally we wouldn't want an entering AM to come in at teh top without ahving raced the top pros, likely the Am would enter near teh bottom. But it would be nice if the Am did not start at the very bottom of Pros with zero points if the Am is fast he should be able to readily progress upward through the pro ranks without having to race for a year and still be at the bottom in an effort to collect points.

The Pros can have their own separate ranking. In that only Pros should be in that ranking. Ideally a racer should win in AM before going Pro. At the bottom of Pro should be a few seasoned veterans who if they like can stay in pro or if they want to proceed further into the brackets return to AM (Which might be fun for Ams to face "Legends") At some point we may need a Legends class.

In other sports I am not so sure Amatuer status wins transfer to helping to rank in the Pro ranks. Realistically the only way to see how an AM would fair racing against the Pros is to use results from racing the PROS, Not AMS. A pro with a great racing strategy can displace an even faster pro (though perhaps you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time) I've seen it happen several times. (Perhaps a partial points transfer will suit our sport well without disrupting the Pro ranking much until attendance by the pros is filled out).


Finally A contest is a "Snapshot in time of ranking at that particular day"

A "World ranking is a "snapshot in time" as well......only that time interval is longer- 4 years as opposed to a day. Its like a contest series (with different mixes of racers at different venues) where only your top 8 results count.