Idea for a race

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:23 pm

I discussed this with several people last weekend:

I woud like to see a race, Tight or Hybrid or Giant, where no racer is allowed to try the course before the actual race. You would be allowed to walk the course and look at it, but no skating. Violators would be punished with a DQ.
The one who sets the course may not race.
It would A: make things go faster and more predictable for the organisers
B: would make things interesting.

Most people found it a good idea.

What do you think about it?

Marty Schaub · Post by **Marty Schaub** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:42 pm

Chris,

Interesting idea but a huge bummer for the person you pick to set the course. Unless you have a guy out injured that can come set it, someone loses.

Why not take the names of all the registered racers, pick one and let them set the course and then race? Or better yet, draw three, one gets the top, on the middle and one the bottom. The variations off the other racers thought process would be interesting.

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm

Ok you are right.
Another version:
An amateur sets the pro course, a pro sets the amateur course.
Or I think there is always someone on the side who has the skills and can not skate or does not want to.
If not go to plan A...........

Marty Schaub · Post by **Marty Schaub** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Chris,

I like the comprimise. I see that someone is already planning on the format next year in Germany(?).

An am setting the pro course would be a hoot. 4 foot cones offset 6 - 12 inches....Why? because your pro's that's why......

Cheers from Georgia.

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:41 pm

we actually had a few cones set under 150 cm in Grueningen. It was quite a challenge. I liked it.

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:14 pm

Another good thing that just came to me:

With this format you can be sure that everyone watches everyone from the start to see where the hard offsets are.

The order must be drawn randomly..........put all names in a hat and let a beauty queen pull the names out and whisper it into a mic.....yeah!

Jani Soderhall · Post by **Jani Soderhall** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:00 pm

Chris Eggers wrote:The order must be drawn randomly..........put all names in a hat and let a beauty queen pull the names out and whisper it into a mic.....yeah!

Even better for racers and audience, start in reverse World Ranking order. Saves the best 'til the end.

/Jani

Chris Eggers · Post by **Chris Eggers** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:05 pm

Hm Jani, what ist better, the World Ranking or the Beauty Queen? (for the audience?)

Wesley Tucker · Post by **Wesley Tucker** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:32 pm

Well, since you're asking, I'll say that I don't like it at all. It turns slalom racing into an episode of FEAR FACTOR (do y'all have that in Europe?)

Before we start making bizarre variations on this sport, we really should work to standardize and optimize the racing for its maximum potential. That means bracketing based on qualifying time, dual racing and left/right lane heats for each racer.

If I were to suggest where we need to improve and get things better it would be COURSE COMUNICATION: faster cone counting, faster penalty inputs to the spreadsheets, faster course resets, shorter down time between heats. I'm still dreaming of the day when slalom can afford a large timing board that will announce each lane's elapsed time in 1-foot high letters for all to see. Then a second time pops up with the adjustments after the cone penalty is counted. No more hovering around the timing table asking, "how'd I do? Did I win? Don't let me bother you, but what was my time on that last run? Can I just look over your shoulder at the spreadsheet and see my time?"

I think Chris is just knocking around an idea to see if it flies and that's fun to do. My only concern, though, is someone will try it and turn a slalom race into an afternoon of mayhem with cones flying everywhere and bodies piled in a heap by the gutter. That's not why i do this.

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:53 pm

wesley

i am referring to a thread i just opened that is called:who's the ruler?.

this thread is also reflecting chris' idea and some random thoughts i had yesterday when driving back home.

i can see your point but let me tell you this:
europeans are a bit more open-minded when it comes to those things.
there will be no pileages of bodies anywhere-we all know that also.
next:if that kind of race is done i am very sure i won't see you there,since you don't seem to be a travelling man,when it comes going to europe.

am i wrong?

I THINK NOT

don't take this as an offense.that race format i'm shooting for will be high class challenge for both ams and pros.
the sport will only advance with people who put in ideas and people who give the sport color.

what i will do next year in brixlegg will be completely different from any other race you have seen so far-it will seed out who's good and who's not.
the waiting time will also be cut down a lot,which will create a good flow of the vent itself.
the other idea i had is to combine this race with a pool-race,death race you name it.
the euro pros (vert guys) like that idea a lot and are totally into it.
this way i pull in all the big names of that scene to the event,creating more media interest for the slalom sport too.
the super g will be the shiznit and very challenging too.
i'm not talking about cakewalks i am talking about real sport.

there's no need to imply thoughts about stupid shows such as ff to that suggestion chris made.

brixlegg is located in austria near innsbruck and close to the german border next to munich.

its time to change things a bit and blow some fresh wind into the sport

Marty Schaub · Post by **Marty Schaub** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:12 pm

Donald,

I kinda like Chris's idea about the beauty queen, because since your a bit more open minded in Europe, she'd be topless wearing a floss thong!!!!

Can you say Hello Betty??? I knew you could.....

Seriously though, if you build it they will come. All with eyes open as that's the way you advertise it. I think this would be fun. And last time I checked I skateboarded because it was fun. WHY NOT have a race like this? If we would have thought this one up back in the old La Costa days, do you think guys like Skolberg, Hester, Piercy or any of the fast Am's would have said no?

I think not......

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:32 pm

thanks marty
your reaction to my idea is exactly what i expected, not only the europeans are open-minded.

let's put the fun back into racing

Pat Chewning · Post by **Pat Chewning** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:51 am

This is the way ski racing is done for slalom. You don't get to run the course before the race, you can inspect by walking or slipping through. The course is usually set by a team drawn by random, the course setter's don't race.

A couple of forerunners (pros running the AM course or AMs running the PRO course could do test runs to make sure it's not too dangerous and to make sure the equipment is running properly.

I think it would be a cool way to race. It would test more of your versatility and ability to choose setup and tactics by just viewing the course.

It could work.....

Marty Schaub · Post by **Marty Schaub** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:05 am

Remember.....

An open mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Chris, Donald,

I hope you pull this off. Don't forget to post pics of the Betty.......

Later Dudes

(That's Californian for b-bye)

Karl Floitgraf · Post by **Karl Floitgraf** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:41 am

My two cents: Moving the sport along by making competition more interesting is important, but often you travel a long way not just to compete but to enjoy skating. Practice runs and skating with all sorts of people, not just the ones your bracketed with is a lot of fun and I for one enjoy that and would not like to see a race where you can't skate a lot.

Jack Smith · Post by **Jack Smith** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:47 am

I love the idea of a no practice race.

You practice before you arrive at the race.

You race at the race!

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:24 am

i think that event is gonna be a blast
and,yes karl,you can practice as much as you want-but not on the official track.
the courses themselves won't be unforgiving for the ams or pros either,but they demand quite a bit of skill..
i will do that event with my friends from switzerland,germany,england.
maybe i can get some help from the french too?
i'm sure.
we have to set up a big event A BIG ONE
i already have 2 big sponsors at hand and more will follow

the combination of a pool race and a regular race event will kick ass for sure.
brixlegg has a very good infrastructure,is a cheap and lovely place to stay and will definitely hold a contest to remember next year!

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:29 am

here's a link to the park and the bowl section:
http://www.skatethecradle.com/index.php?id=54

Patrick Allan · Post by **Patrick Allan** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:03 am

I also think it sounds like a great idea... Things would go much faster, a lot less waiting around... Maybe even time for more than just two quali times?
If you have a beauty queen, Donald, I'm sure the french would all come...
I guess I need to start working on my park skills...

Donald Campbell · Post by **Donald Campbell** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:23 am

i'll make sure the idea of a beauty queen will be realized,especially for our french friends.
one week in marseille and you are ready for the bowl

Wes Eastridge · Post by **Wes Eastridge** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:37 pm

Are you going to go all out and have 7-foot tall poles sticking out of the cones, that each racer must hit with their elbow as they pass by it? What kind of wax will you all be using on the contact patch of your wheels?

Jack Smith · Post by **Jack Smith** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:09 pm

Wes,

The poles will actually be 8' tall and made of tubular steel. The penalty for hitting them is picking yourself up off the pavement.

Steve Hinzen · Post by **Steve Hinzen** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:00 am

this is my first post in this forum ever, so first of all: hallo to everybody!
the international day of skateboarding should be a good date for registerating, I thought.

I totally agree with the ideas of Chris and Donald. I love the idea of focusing contest time and reducing waiting periods. It will be a must for organizers, if they want to make their competions more attractive to spectators and racers as well.
I am a newbe/backcomer to slalom-competition and subscribed myself to a bunch of euro-contests this year. Until now I have attended 4 contests this year. My personal resumee is that many if not all of them could have been a lot funnier if their time managment would have been better. Next year I will select my participations very carefully.

My suggestions for the near future:

1. set the course the day before the race (the pro/am exchange is a good idea).
2. give racers a chance to pratice on the course early in the morning while the staff gets everthing else built up.
3. make sure there will be NO "warm-up-sessions" before the races.

If organizers follow these 3 points they will easily win 2-6 hours per day.
This time can be better spent for other things as a nations-cup for example.

May in the future win the racer who is faster not the one who can better wait!

Jadranko Radovanovic · Post by **Jadranko Radovanovic** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:49 pm

What would this be for the slalom sport if in a Pro race, who is setted by an Amateur, 50% of the Pro's are DQ'd because they can't do the course.

Why we wait in Grueningen to set the Pro course parallel first on Saturday ?

The first version of the course was to hard for the Pro's. Luca, Maurus, Marcus, Ramon can do it, but what is with the other's ?

In Grueningen we start on Sunday at 11:15 and finished the contest at 17:00. That are 5 hours and 45 minutes for 86 riders in 4 Categories.

What was happened on Saturday ?

The Spreadsheet which i received from Dan Gesmer didn't work for the Eliminations. The Qualification was okay, but the elimination brackets were all empty !! I realized it when we want to start with the Juniors and Woman final's. We had luck that we installed wireless the day before at the race side. So we searched for the old file on our webserver. While we searching and preparing the new file, we let the Amateurs practice and start after with their qualification run's. That's way it takes so long on saturday.

I think it's not the time managment of the organisers. It's the no diszipline of the rider's ! No one is riding the info's of the organisers carefully, all mean they can ask at the day.

here is a calculation:

Qualification:

86 start's that all rider's has 2 times
172 times that you have fill in the spreadsheets
172 times count the cones together and fill in the Spreadsheets

Final's:
boy's: 8 starts, 16 times, 16 cones counting
woman: 32 starts, 64 times and 64 cones counting
am (bracket 32): 64 Starts, 128 times, 128 cone counting
pro: 32 starts, 64 times, 64 cone counting

You have on a race day:

222 strats from the Ramp, 444 different times, and 444 cone counting and 86 different rider who want to give their input for the race, during the race.
And don't forget the diszipline of the rider's. Sometimes they need 4 call's that they come to the starting ramp.

Here my advice for the next races:

1. registration and paying entry fee, latest one week before the race, so you can prepair the Spreadsheets and print the qualification.

2. give them practice time in the morning.

3. start the race how you want, but finish one categorie to the end befor starting the next.

4. Give them only one warm up run when you change the categorie.

J-Rad

Ramón Königshausen · Post by **Ramón Königshausen** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:04 pm

Important: Point 3 has to be changed in case of critical weather! Make sure that every rider has at least one qualification time when it starts to rain / the race is to be cancelled. And take the Pros first.

rmn

Marcus Seyffarth · Post by **Marcus Seyffarth** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:25 pm

I think the plan is to hold the European Championships in Stockholm pretty much this way.
- All registrations must be done before july 1:st (2 weeks prior to race)
- Startlists will be printed and can be found on the web 1 week prior to the race
- No practice in the race course, same course will be set for practice a few meters away.
- Computer displays with all results at the top and the bottom of the course.

Hopefully this will all work just fine and set a new standard for slalom racing.

Jadranko Radovanovic · Post by **Jadranko Radovanovic** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:52 pm

Marcus,

i will have our ALGE timing and the two tapeswitches with me just in case somthing happen with the timing...

J-Rad

Marcus Seyffarth · Post by **Marcus Seyffarth** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:18 pm

perfect!

alavoine jean paul · Post by **alavoine jean paul** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:04 pm

Patrick Allan wrote: If you have a beauty queen, Donald, I'm sure the french would all come...
...

It won't be hard to find a beauty queen in Sweden, do you need a judge from France for that event ???

CU all soon.

Wes Eastridge · Post by **Wes Eastridge** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:01 pm

If the purpose of the proposed race format is to make races easier on the organizers, how about this instead:
Allow people to practice the course without any cones set on it.

That seems like a decent compromize. I'll admit that it probably wouldn't work for a TS course. However, it has proven to be effective on hybrid and GS courses, as long as the pavement is marked well.

What do you all think?

Ramón Königshausen · Post by **Ramón Königshausen** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:29 pm

The cone judges would have to decide who the imaginary cone made and who missed it.
Isn't it easier to count a hit cone?

Can I make a suggestion?

My suggestion is: No cones, no marks; just a certain distance. You take all racers together and let them all push towards the finish line at the same time.
The contest would be done sooo quickly and easily!

Wes Eastridge · Post by **Wes Eastridge** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:01 pm

I'm suggesting a way to practice without needing anyone to replace cones.

We did this "no-cone" practice at the Luna race last year. It seemed ridiculous to many of us before we tried it. It turned out to be effective though. A really great thing about it was that you didn't even have to wait for the person in front of you to finish the course. One person goes and then the next person only has to wait approximately 5 seconds before they can go.

Ramón Königshausen · Post by **Ramón Königshausen** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:08 pm

Oh, sorry Wes. You're talking about the training runs only?

rmn

Wes Eastridge · Post by **Wes Eastridge** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:18 pm

Ramón Königshausen wrote:You're talking about the training runs only?

Yes, that's correct. I'll go edit that into my original post. I thought it was understood because the elimination of the practice/training runs is the main subject here.

Neil Gendzwill · Post by **Neil Gendzwill** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:22 am

Just to add my 2 cents - I think the reason practice runs are not allowed in ski slalom is because each run degrades the course. After the practices, you'd have to pull the gates, groom and reset. In downhill they always have practice runs, which are necessary for safety's sake.

Steve Hinzen · Post by **Steve Hinzen** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:36 am

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote: Here my advice for the next races:

1. registration and paying entry fee, latest one week before the race, so you can prepair the Spreadsheets and print the qualification.

2. give them practice time in the morning.

3. start the race how you want, but finish one categorie to the end befor starting the next.

4. Give them only one warm up run when you change the categorie.

I totally agree with J-Rads first 3 points for a better race day.
But as I said before we better forget about any time-consuming WARMUP-runs before the race. The racer who starts last in a race does not really profit from this anyway. Racers know other ways to warm up before they start. I'm not talking about PRACTICE runs. These are devinitely nessecary for the safety and that everyone can addapt his setup to the course.

Paul Keleher · Post by **Paul Keleher** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:42 am

On the whole, i agree with J-rad.

But...

what i would like to see, instead of a "free for all practice session" would be to pin it down to 4 or 5 timed practice runs, with your fastest time counting as qualifying.

I'm sure some people will agree that some of your practice/warm-up runs feel faster than your actual qualifying times, and you will know from the times if the little tweaks and mods you make between runs actually improve your time,

It wouldn't be that difficult to do either formally, or jam session style...we all had numbers on

This would especially assist those who had the strong wind blowing up the course on the Sunday at greuningan during qualification

Karl Floitgraf · Post by **Karl Floitgraf** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:31 pm

Somehow we made it work in Last Year's European Championship. They gave practice time blocks to different classes. A pro would have 45 minutes B pro might have an hour(because they are a larger group) and the boys might get 25 minutes or something. At least that's how I remember it.

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