[2006] Region East Atlantic: Europe

Moderator: Hans Koraeus

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:32 pm

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote:What it makes important for main status is the fact, that there are many rider's who can't make every trip to a race. And they want as well to have a chance to make some point's for the World Ranking. Give them the chance to tell their kids or grandchild what they have done and which place they had in the World Ranking.
Does it depend on where they earned their points?

Jadranko Radovanovic wrote: We didn't take the entry fees from the Latvians and we didn't take the entry fee from the Russians.
But you should still be able to pay for ordered things even if you do some "goodwill actions" like that.


Whatever...I'm curious about this new ranking mentioned by our "anonymous" user here.
It's maybe going to solve all the current problems we have got...

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:23 pm

What it makes important for main status is the fact, that there are many rider's who can't make every trip to a race. And they want as well to have a chance to make some point's for the World Ranking. Give them the chance to tell their kids or grandchild what they have done and which place they had in the World Ranking.

Grueningen makes it possible to attend a race with a small budget.
low entry fee, free accomodation, free transport from and to the airport
We didn't take the entry fees from the Latvians and we didn't take the entry fee from the Russians. Did you see more Latvians or Russians on another event than in Grueningen ?
Ask yourself if it's possible for you to spend a whole month's earn to go to a competition ?

If we are talking about a balance for the World Ranking and geographical criterias, than it's Grueningen which deservs the main status more than Antibes or Paris.
compare the number of rider's, compare the geographical location.

This is the point what i'm talking about!
The ISSA had to decide which criteria there are and how important which criteria is.
You can have some special rules like if you had the main status one year the other year another location has the advantage to have the main status.

That is a way. But not with undifferentiated statements. Look at the Forum which people wrote something about the Statuses. Look at the way of Donald, contact as many people as you can and they should say: yes i'm behind your project. The Forum gives you an input what this group of people think. But don't forget the other's who didn't make a statement or which aren't in this Forum. Perhaps it's an organisation needed with representatives who don't see only the own interest, but the interest of the Sport and the People who do this sport.

I don't want the Status from Antibes, Paris, Riga or Brixlegg.

But think about the way how it was decided and think about the other's who aren't in this Forum. And think differentiated when you compare the Event's with each other. Try to messure the criterias in a fair way. And try to weight the criterias. And in the end, don't forget it's your opinion and other's see it in another way.

/J-Rad

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:13 pm

The Bulla wrote:A new world ranking system is in the making.
B
Let me know your full name and I will update your profile. No pseudos please.

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yes!

Post by Steve Hinzen » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:20 am

Steve, is there a typo here? Does Paris deserve it or not?
Jani, the answer is: YES, it does !

-

Guest

Post by Guest » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:15 am

A new world ranking system is in the making.
All races with with good startingfields will recive
Main status. Corkys system will still exist but this
is just to see if it will change the ranking, more
info to come.

B

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:37 pm

So what's your plan now?

What makes it so important to get a main status for Grüningen once again since it has had one for the last...5 years?
In my opinion you should give other events that, so far, haven't had a higher status a chance to advance somehow. You cannot book a main status over 10 years in a row.
I personally don't care whether Grueningen gets a Main Status or not altough I'm in the same opinion with you J-Rad, according to the fact that Switzerland's got a really big, perhaps even the biggest, slalom scene. But I also think that hardly any Swiss guy would care whether Grueningen's got a Main or only a Prime Status.
And since nothing in this sport is really official, I guess nobody will care about how you will publish the whole thing here in Switzerland....


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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:07 pm

on a side note i see that your main focus of attack seems to be another race from another organizer again?
Don, there are no attacks to anybody or any event's.
It's only a view from another side. My main focus is to have a clearly System to messure the criterias and decide the statuses.
Also Antibes easily wins a competition against Grüningen for a main status for many reasons, not only because it's at the season's end.

If Hannover keeps establishing itself as a big one it definitely deserves a higher Status next year. It can easily overrun Grüningen in terms of attraction and professionalism.
Steve write things without facts. I gave your some facts. Those were important things for an Event.
may i ask you( i take the burden to be the bad man on my shoulders again) if it is professional to hold a "bigger" contest in a remote village somewhere in switzerland on a side lane of a main street?
or is it professional to fetch 20 euros from the entrants for a tank-top of the cheapest quality telling them they ordered it?
On the photos of this side lane you can see the development of the sport and the racers over the last 6 years. From 24 rider's to 96 rider's. Over 180 skater's from 13 country's raced this side lane.
The tank-top t-shirt was only for order. It was writing in 3 diffrent languages and you had to take your size. The standard of the registration was "no shirt" to order the shirt you had to take your size. 77 shirt's were ordered from the rider's with name and number. The price is swiss standard. And it was the choice of the raiders if they want one or not.
besides that i don't see anything unprofessional in chris taking over dans place during a race.you know damn well how experienced chris is,you are still far away from that.

I know that Chris is well experienced, he helped me every year organising the race.
But chris was there as a rider not as the man who run's the race. It's very intresting that you know what my skills and what i do and what i did.
see,i raced when you were not even in the planning and i quit racing among with lots of other racers because the races were #a absolutely boring #b mostly held at remote locations.
I heard other causes from other skaters.

it's not only the sportive aspect that counts,going to any race is also a form of tourism.
me,being the guy who has to cover the expenses any race causes,i want to get the best out of it.grüningen will not be on my map ever again.
Don, never forget this is your point of you. I respect it, it's your decision.

Ask other people what they think. Ask Luca, Olson, Carrasco, Klangster, Macster, the gordan family, Chris, Lynn, Noemi, Pierre, the Russian team, and the swiss.
if you want a corporate body who has the ultimate power to cast any decision being made towards this sport,the you are talking about MONEY-these people need to be paid for what they do-i can't see that right now.
it's not every time a question of money. I don't think that the people race because of the money. Slalom is a passion for some of us. We like to show other people the sport. The people like to watch slalom. It's somthing what you didn't see every day. I think it's possible to have a body for the Szene with very less money. What you need are people who want volunteer. And i know a lot of those people...

/J-Rad

besides: 10 of the youngsters from Grüeningen started Slalomskating after the contest. They skated 3 times a week during the summer and they will start again in the spring 2006

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:36 pm

maybe hard to understand the way its written,but steve wanted to say that paris rules in his book.

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Post by Jani Soderhall » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:12 pm

Steve Hinzen wrote:History or not, from my point of view a main status for Paris was out of question.
Steve, is there a typo here? Does Paris deserve it or not?

/Jani

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Post by Donald Campbell » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:34 pm

yes-there are rules/guidelines!

most of the criteria has been given by corky in his previous postings already-maybe you should take your time and reread the definitions for statuses,so there's no need for this question.
on a side note i see that your main focus of attack seems to be another race from another organizer again?
may i ask you( i take the burden to be the bad man on my shoulders again) if it is professional to hold a "bigger" contest in a remote village somewhere in switzerland on a side lane of a main street?
or is it professional to fetch 20 euros from the entrants for a tank-top of the cheapest quality telling them they ordered it?

you know damn well what i'm talking about jadranko,don't try to ridicule me there.


i had my first full season in europe this last year and i openly admit that going to grüningen was the biggest bummer for me.
paris was right before grüningen and what a difference,i was absolutely speechless and disappointed.that was one of the worst locations i have seen so far.your crowd of spectators has been derived of the families of the local fire-house and some bored youngsters.

besides that i don't see anything unprofessional in chris taking over dans place during a race.you know damn well how experienced chris is,you are still far away from that.

see,i raced when you were not even in the planning and i quit racing among with lots of other racers because the races were #a absolutely boring #b mostly held at remote locations.

it's not only the sportive aspect that counts,going to any race is also a form of tourism.
me,being the guy who has to cover the expenses any race causes,i want to get the best out of it.grüningen will not be on my map ever again.

if you want a corporate body who has the ultimate power to cast any decision being made towards this sport,the you are talking about MONEY-these people need to be paid for what they do-i can't see that right now.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:34 pm

What i said is that there aren't rules for the decision.
If Hannover keeps establishing itself as a big one it definitely deserves a higher Status next year. It can easily overrun Grüningen in terms of attraction and professionalism.
I don't know what you understand under the word professionalism ?

Is it professional when Luca has to go three times down the course, to have a time ?

Is it professional when Dan Gesmer goes away with his LapTop for a phone call and Chris Hart takes his Lap Top to continue the race ?

Is it professional when you don't have a kind of ambulance at the race for the security of the raider's ?


The quality of the race and the quality of the starterfield should be the most important point.
Than you can talk about spread out over the season and all the other things...

A race like Paris/Riga/Hannover is important when we have an organisation behind the races. When we as ISSA are looking for sponsors, media coveriges and so on...

but we aren't now in this situation.

If the slalom event is a part of another big event or the location is in a touristic side, than it's no problem to have the spectators. But the other question is, how is the quality of spectators ? If you have the races for it self not a part of another event, than you get the people who are interested in this sport.

There is more than one way to Rome. We take more than one. We have event's like Grueningen/Uster/Wetzikon which are for it self. And we have one in Zurich which is a part of the car free day where we have thousends of spectators.

We make Folder's/Flyer's/ad in the buses/Posters to promote our races. For Zurich we need only to do a Folder or nothing and we have the spectators.

But the small races are those who bring new blood in to the sport and with this new blood the sport can grow.

In our situation now, i don't think that the criteria's for the decision of the racestatuses are the right one.

If there is one thing which wasn't proffesional in Grueningen, than please tell us. You can be sure that every small point will be reflected. That is what we understand under qualiti and professionalism.

For me personal it doesn't depands which status our race have. I won't race at my race anyway. But there are a lot of folks here who want to have the chance to make some point's.

For me it's important to have some guidlines how it should be done and what the criteria are. That's the only way to measure if the event's deservs the status or not.

Without criterias, it's only your feeling who say which race deserves which status. And if you look which people wrote somthing, than you know which people has decided. But don't forget there are many other people outside of this Forum who feels in another way.

That's way we need precise criterias.

/J-Rad

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Post by Steve Hinzen » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:01 am

First congrats to You decision-makers from my side.

I think You came up with a very good concept for this year's european races.
It serves the best to the needs of the majority of racers.

History or not, from my point of view a main status for Paris was out of question.
Also Antibes easily wins a competition against Grüningen for a main status for many reasons, not only because it's at the season's end.

If Hannover keeps establishing itself as a big one it definitely deserves a higher Status next year. It can easily overrun Grüningen in terms of attraction and professionalism.

Jadranko, Corky did a good job in some of his posts where he explained very well on which arguments this final decision should be done. In this debate You were given the chance to get a main status by pushing Your event to the end of the season.

If no one else enters into competition for primes the great Western Series should get prime status. We need to know this until the 2nd of february. This is exactly 2 month ahead of the first of the two races.

-

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:36 am

Corky wrote:So this is how I see the situation for the moment.
Not everything is decided in stone but Riga and Brixlegg are Mains because of European and World championship titles. (Brixlegg taking the Major status). I tried earlier to propose not having Paris as Main to see what happened. I got the feeling that most feel that Paris has to have Main status. Once this was clear Hannover and Grüningen is losing out on Main status because they are too close to either Paris or Riga. People want to see the Mains spread out over the season and after Brixlegg Antibes is the only option we know so far.

So Hannover and Grüningen, both capable of holding Main status, in this years scenario falls down on Prime statuses.

As I said this is the conclusion of the discussions we have had so far. It's time to take the discussions another step forward if any new angles on the subject can be made.

There are also still 2 more Prime statuses that have not been discussed much. Don seems to have no problem taking care of them but I know Stockholm is interested in one of those Primes as well. And I still hope England could surprise us with something. Prime need to be decided 2 months ahead so for an early season opener the earliest date possible is know March 10. Time is running away quickly...

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Post by Dominik Kowalski » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:41 pm

Hey, guys calm down...
that is waisted webspace.....since you gotta pay for the side ;)

Anyway, ahh...hmm..no...argh..fxck!
I had a good idea to solve all the problems
in all discused problems in this forum but I just forgot it!

Dawm....think now I just waisted that one too, hugh?

Shame on all of you buzzc%§s

okay, back to the topic :)
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keep on rollin'...

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:56 pm

buzzcocks
shame on you

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:55 pm

no homework done

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:47 pm

wanna have another deathmatch here?

boredom(ok ramon which band did that song-let's see if you did your homework,reply-time is 2 mins from now...)

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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:42 pm

If you wanna discuss. So it'll be!

Events that, in my opinion, deserve a Main status are:
  • Paris
  • Hannover
  • Grueningen
  • Riga
  • Antibes
  • Brixlegg
bla

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Post by Heiko Schöller » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:21 pm

Jadranko it's always the same here. We are all talking and discuss everything till death and in the end the decision is made by the same guys...

I think Grüningen must get a main status because of it's history...but Paris and Antibes deserve a main too. Not my decision so I don't give a f#@k about the statues....
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Post by Ramón Königshausen » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:04 pm

It's because they don't want the season to be over in July already.
If we give Antibes a Main Status the season (of Main Events) ends in September instead in July already.

I wouldn't care so much about statuses....an event is as good as it feels and that really doesn't depend on the status it's got.

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:10 am

Don, i didn't ask you what you think or what conceivabilities you have.

I'm asking for the process - how it was decided ?

you should try to understand why that decision has been taken and accept it without complaint.
Every decision has a justification. And I would like to know what the justification is.


/J-Rad

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:35 am

the french deserve those two spots. besides a high-level race-event they offer everything a skateboard tourist wants. following up their heels is hannover who might deserve a better slot than it has right now.
you should try to understand why that decision has been taken and accept it without complaint.

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Post by Donald Campbell » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:30 am

ehmm corky i would definitely like to have a prime for our season-opener in germany.
i'm talking about the great western race.
this is no fun or outlaw-race, we will organize it together with axel fischer who did the euros 2004.
thanks from don

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Post by Jadranko Radovanovic » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:28 am

Why we get a Prime Status ?

How was the decision taken ?

Why have the French two Main's ?

We were the most representative nation at the races in 2005 and we want to have a Main Status race in our country.

/J-Rad

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:34 am

So this is how I see the situation for the moment.

Major status subjects (1)
[Major] Brixlegg, AUT | World Championships of Slalom Skateboarding 2006 | July 21- 23

Main status subjects (3)
[Main] Paris, FRA | Paris Slalom World Cup | May 25-28
[Main] Riga, LAT | European Championships of Slalom Skateboarding 2006 | July 1-2
[Main] Antibes, FRA | World Cup - Antibes | Sep 31- Oct 1

Prime status subjects (4)
[Prime] Grüningen/Hinwil, SUI | Slalom Skateboard World Cup Grüningen/Hinwil | June 9 - 11
[Prime] Hannover, GER | Hannover World Cup | June 2-4
[Prime]
[Prime]
Stockholm, SWE | | July?

Any comments? Or should we wrap it up like this. Two Prime slots open.

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Post by Hans Koraeus » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:34 pm

The discussions for European World Ranking statuses for 2006 have already come a long way. They came up in another topic and discussion about selecting World Championships. There have been some hard discussions but now the Major is decided since Antibes did throw in the towel. And the European Championships in Riga also seems clear.

I'm moving over the discussion here where it should be. And there are still some time before we have crossed the finish line with this.

Here are two proposals following the latest discussions.

- 2006 Proposal 1
Paris May 25-28
Grüningen 9-11 June
Riga (EC) 1-2 July
Brixlegg (WC) 22-23 July

- 2006 Proposal 2
Paris May 25-28
Riga 1-2 July
Brixlegg 22-23 July
Antibes September

The first proposal is a little bit too compact concerning dates for my taste. The season ends to early. But possible.

The second proposal is better concering dates but have the problem of France getting two Main statuses. I think the French would select Paris before Antibes for having one Main status. And Paris is difficult to battle with for Hannover and Grüningen. That Antibes gets the last Main is mainly because it has no other competitor at the end of the season. If Grüningen was late in the season it would have got the Main status but where the event date is now for the season 2006 it is difficult.



Selection ideas
- Spread them out over the season
- Spread them out geographically
- Spread them out over odd and even years
- Avoid same country getting more than one of the highest statuses

Spread them out over the season
It's good if we have the races spread out over the season. This gives us maybe four season zones over the year. May/June, June/July, July/Aug, Aug/Sept. Races in the same date zone compete against each other.

- Zone May/June
Paris, May 25-28
Hannover, June 3-5
Gruningen, June 9-11

- Zone June/July
Riga/Jurmala, July 1-2

- Zone July/Aug
Brixlegg, July 22-23

- Zone Aug/Sept
Antibes, September

Spread them out geographically
Let's try to give as many as possible the chance to have at least one Main close by.

West: Paris, Antibes

South: Antibes

Middle: Grüningen, Brixlegg, Hannover

North: Riga, Stockholm

Spread them out over odd and even years
If one city gets the Main one year then other could get priority the coming year. Since the World Ranking (pros, wom) are over multiple years that will not affect the world ranking at all.

Avoid same country getting more than one of the highest statuses
This is only a problem for Antibes and Paris. Even though Brixlegg is in Austria it feels a lot like German or Swiss territory since the slalom scene in Austria haven't made itself shown very much.

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[2006] Region East Atlantic: Europe

Post by Hans Koraeus » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:42 am

I will try to keep this post updated with the current discussion.
1. Time to find out who has plans for organizing European competitions in 2006.
2. Who will recieve what World Ranking statuses for 2006.


World Ranking status proposal for 2006
__________________________________________________
Europe have 1 Major, 3 Mains and 4 Primes to set.
[Major] [Main] [Main] [Main] [Prime] [Prime] [Prime] [Prime]
__________________________________________________

Major status subjects (1)
[Major] Brixlegg, AUT | World Championships of Slalom Skateboarding 2006 | July 21- 23

Main status subjects (3)
[Main] Paris, FRA | Paris Slalom World Cup | May 25-28
[Main] Riga, LAT | European Championships of Slalom Skateboarding 2006 | July 1-2
[Main] Antibes, FRA | World Cup - Antibes | Sep 31- Oct 1

Prime status subjects (4)
[Prime] Grüningen/Hinwil, SUI | Slalom Skateboard World Cup Grüningen/Hinwil | June 9 - 11
[Prime] Hannover, GER | Hannover World Cup | June 2-4
[Prime]
[Prime]
Stockholm, SWE | | August?
Zürich, SUI | Swiss Slalom Series #4 Final | September 24

Basic Status
Basic and Plain statuses don't need any discussion since they are decided only on date when they are officially announced.
More than 1 month = Basic status. Less than 1 month = Plain status.

Other
Last edited by Hans Koraeus on Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:30 am, edited 5 times in total.

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