John Gilmours Begineer Slalom Courses

[Hans Koraeus]

I just reread Eric Groffs post above about breaking.

JG-You can talk all this Braking crap you want, as far as I'm concerned I hope it never plays a part in RACING, skateboards dont have brakes. Your analogys of slalom racing will only deter those that want to get involved from doing so.

I wast just amazed how wrong this is. It's like saying "Skateboards has no stearing wheel so you can't turn it". Well of course you can control speed with your board. And naturally it should be a big part of slalom racing.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hans Koraeus on 2003-05-26 10:37 ]</font>

[Eddy Martinez]

My question was answered at the 100 cone race in St Louis. I was having trouble making the course at bottom. I mentioned this to Ricky Byrd. He told me he was going to shorten his wheelbase on his Pocket Pistol. I decided to do the same to my Pocket Pistol. BADAHBING. I made the course. I had a bigass smile walking up that long course. So much imformation was gathered at this great race. Thanks Ricky. Jeff GO GO YOU DA MAN BRO. Eddy TEXAS OUTLAW Martinez

[Eddy Martinez]

Is a board with a shorter wheelbase easier to pump,than a board with a longer wheelbase. Eddy Martinez TEXAS OUTLAW

[Eric Groff]

Eddy-Glad to here things are goin good for ya! Good exercise to do is to see how far you can pump in an emty parking lot or uphill, for instance, start at a pre determined point take 5 pushes and pump as long as you can, Next time do it all over again and see if you have progressed, Did you go farther the next time, same drill but up a small grade.

Try double pumping also, Toe Toe turn Heel Heel turn. I learned to pump at an early age riding my skateboard 5 miles to the beach, Fatigue would set in and I taught myself to push with both feet, then the pumping came along and it sure did make the ride alot easier, When i was a kid I lived in a track of homes that had sidewalk twisting and turning forever, I could take off and not put my foot down to pus again for 10-15 minutes, PUMP PUMP PUMP.

When this whole slalom thing started I went back there to get my pump back in shape, it took about 2 weeks and I was right back up to speed.

Pumping is key in slalom! When you start wearing out rear wheels you'll know then that your pumping hard.

Good Luck and I may have a line on those trucks you were interested in. drop me a line.

Arab

[Eddy Martinez]

As a newbie I dont get to meet many slalom skaters in these parts of Texas. Today my friend Marcos Soulsby Monroy came down from Galveston to practice. This dude is fast and knows how to pump his board. Just from watching him shoot through the cones I learned how to pump my board or the evolution of a pump. All I know is that in the begining of the day, I would run out of speed in the middle of the Hybrid course we were running. By the end of the day I was shooting all the way through the course. I was weighting and unweighting. What a rush. Marcos thanks for the tips. I have much to learn. your Friend Eddy Martinez ,TEXAS OUTLAW,

[Eric Groff]

Eddy-some do some dont, I have seen world champ gary Cross ride old coned out wheels at races and do very good with them(WIN)

Sometimes its not so much about the speed as it is the grip, Old coned wheels sometimes grip better.

As far as bearings go, myself I ride inexpansive OUST bearings that last a long time, Sometimes I'll clean them for a race and sometimes I'll ride them for a few races before I clean them.

[Eddy Martinez]

Do the pros run new bearings and new wheels the day of the race. Do racers have certain rituals the perform prior to the race. Eddy Martinez,Texas Outlaw.

[David Eye]

JG; sorry, did not mean to 'slam' you on the bike-racing thing, I did get your point and I think its valid. So is Arabs point, I hear what hes saying also, but to say more would be digressing from the topic at hand; beginners courses.
My point is that if the FCR Series races represent 'beginners' courses then the beginning slalomers out there are in trouble.
Meaning dont count on any new blood from
them directly.
I think the beginner-course concept needs to be addressed via the Grass-roots efforts like we have here in CO.; thats where I am learning the sport. Keep,or raise the FCR standards for both ams and pros, then, when the beginners or novices like myself compete at the FCR Am level we'll have a true sense of acomplishment thats worth something (not that it is'nt now) I just think the FCR races should be focused on the more seasoned pros and ams curently competing, than to try and accomodate everybody.
Arab; cool LeMond story, maybe this year we'll meet at a race and I can tell you mine.

[Gary Fluitt]

Some of you may remember the survey that I did back around Christmas. It asked FCR participants what courses they liked and disliked, and about who should set courses. 53 resondents rated the courses below. I forgot to mention that Mark McCree wins the T-shirt prize. Hey Mark, I need your address. Below are some screen captures from the results and my smarmy comments.
Gary Fluitt

<img src="http://www.asphaltplayground.com/images/best.jpg">
Clearly the Catalina TS, a beginner course I think it was called, won most favored course status. I only wish I could have been there. Interesting that the Hood River Hybrid course recieved zero votes on popularity. Who set that course anyway? Ransom won that race, he must not have voted. And the Bear banked slalom did recieve 3 votes though it is not captured in the this screen shot, my mistake.

<img src="http://www.asphaltplayground.com/images/worst.jpg">
OK, so hands down winner (or looser depending on how you look at it) is obvious, even a little shocking to me. I didn't think it was THAT bad. Ransom, again the winner. It appears Charlie has something for those courses no one likes. Maybe that's because he's the World PRO GS Champion. So what are you saying Fluitt? Really- I have no idea.
<img src="http://www.asphaltplayground.com/images ... etters.jpg">
Lots of additional comments on who should set courses. Most of them were a combination of ideas that sound great, but in my mind would result in on course fights by competing course setters, race day constipation, and an overall unimplementable solutions. So if you take out all the great individual ideas, it's pretty well split down the middle as to an impartial race organization (USSSF) or teams (SSS) setting courses. Locals recieved least support, and I agree with that. Too much local knowledge could be bad for competition.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gary Fluitt on 2003-02-10 18:41 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gary Fluitt on 2003-02-10 18:55 ]</font>

[John Gilmour]

David I never proposed to know anything about Bike racing (I don't even own a bike). I'm just trying to say that different skills can be represented in slalom other than Pumping and a good start.

Jack, GBJ said he had to take into account that he was setting a course for the girls as well as the pros.

Quote: (From the Dark Side)
"For me, just so people realize it, my frame of reference as a coursesetter is quite different from the individual's impression of a course. What I am keenly aware of as I am setting what is supposed to be a world-class course, is that I have also had to keep that course reasonably makeable by all classes of racer, including Juniors. That is a VERY tall order. Set a course that is reasonably makeable for Lauren Gordon (accomplished Junior slalomer that she is) AND that challenges Paul Dunn, John Gilmour, Chicken Deck, etc.??? Think about that. It's really absurd when you consider it. "

-GBJ


If GBJ set a course that caused all the Girls to DQ likely the girls wouldn't have liked that. Having one course serve all isn't always the only way to do things- but it is one way.

Having a pro level course has its problems like anything else. Some people might be confused over which event to enter if they are on the boarderline. But people would have a choice.

I would like to race the Deathrace course, but given that the last time I rode vert was in 1978- (save for a few slow runs on my slalom board at the Redbull event...) I wouldn't make the course. But I would hate to see the race promoters make the course easy so a non pro vert rider like myself could ride with a pro. That being said it would also be fun to participate without the pros on an easy Notsodeathrace course for fun.

I do feel that the slalom race promoters made it so a non pro level rider can ride with a pro. It was their decision. I think this year people have had the opportunity to ride the same course as the pros to compare their times.

If promoters still want to set simple courses so that people can race with the pros- that is great.....but I also hope they would set another course that would be satisfying for slalom racers that were looking for a more challenging course. Fun for spectators too.

Pro racers would have the option to enter either race or both. Payouts could be made relative to the pro or open designation.

Currently the courses are pretty simple.

From a commentators mouth...all you can say about the simple courses is this.

_______________________________________
Wow racer #1 has a really fast pump...he is ahead of racer #2.

Racer number #1 also got a great start...it will be hard for racer #2 to catch him. Those offsets might slow him down.

Wow! Look at that finish...within tenths of each other...now that is racing!
____________________________________

I want commentators to be able to say this.

Wow racer #1 is off to a great start, look at him tackle this offset section- now look at this diagram in slow motion- See the racers hips are not setting up for the next series of diagonal cones while racer #2 though behind has set up properly...that is going to cost him.

You can see that Racer #2 has taken advantage of that mistake. But here comes a straighter section where racer #1 might make up that lost time. They are pretty even now. Racer # 1 has pulled ahead- we can see that his long wheelbase is helping him through this wider section. Racer #2 is setting up high for the crown in the road and is going in awful fast for the next section of unevenly spaced cones- he might blow out- But look at Racer #2 wheels scrub ever so perfectly on this close up of his wheels skidding- nice turn!. Coming into the middle stretch we see racer #1 pull ahead and as he enters the next "s curve" of cones you can see he is well positioned as I superimpose the body of the Forerunner, Mr. Ritchie Carrasco (the course setter), from earlier in the day you can see he has near perfect positioning- his choice of smaller wheels certainly is helping him through this section. Racer #2 is behind and has to enter the next section with a lot of speed- and we see OHHHH! a great Criddle by Racer #1 allowing him to alter his line into the next series of cones...that tenth will cost him- but likely it will put him even with racer # 2. Coming into the straights we see racer #1 slightly ahead- but that before we add in his criddling penalty- and a great rush by racer #2 in the final technical section and ...Racer # 2 in in the lead but can he hold on- the last section will require him to get his hips way over to the left and at this speed..... he explodes- he's criddling way to many cones! We'll have to go to the clocks to determine the winner. Looks like Racer #1 by less than a tenth.

Announcer-
"So Henry- what would you have done."

Hester-
"Well I don't think I would have gone for that criddle on the 13th cone...I would taken out the 15th cone to take this line (see diagram on screen) you'll see the other top racers took out the 15th cone in an effort to center themselves for the next section- could have been a mistake by the racers part..or perhaps he had a different strategy."

Don O'Shei - "I don't know what you annoucers and racers are doing clogging up my view... GET OFF MY COURSE!"

Dan Gesmer- "Well as I see it the racers knew each other's racing strategies, I think in the technical section Racer # 2 could have carried more speed if he had been on my trucks"

Racer # 2- "I would have Dan, but I wasn't able to find silver springs!"

Racer #1- Yeah Dan- many thanks for getting me those silver springs....they made all the difference in return to center for that pumping section. I thought racer # 2 was going to get me in that final section- but I did the Classic move that Evans did to Ransom in Catalina where I pretended to go in fast to the technical section- to make the other racer blow up- without those magical springs he was a goner."

Announcer-
"Jack Smith, - your comments?"

Jack Smith-
"Well if we had been able to have a judge for each cone we might have been able to call Racer #1 on that first criddle and DQ'ed him, but unfortunately Hugh R refused to do it again and I wasn't able to convince anyone else to do it. Racer #2 wouldn't have had to criddle the end section because Racer #1 would have been DQ'ed much earlier in the course."

Annoucer-
"So Criddling is illegal?"

Jack Smith-
"Well in my book it is cheating. If you don't like it throw your own race. We'll be skating across the USA again, a bunch of us will be taking turns out of the van skating while the others watch from the van."

Annoucer-
"watch for what?"

Jack Smith-
To see if any of us knock over any traffic cones "intentionally" during our crossing of America. Any intentional criddler will be sent back to the start line to do the crossing again without van support.

Annoucer-
"What benefit will that have?"

Jack Smith-
"Well we were looking at a charity pledge type of format- and that way the people pledging would be penalized along with the criddler. It gets more intense that way- particularly if someone criddles just before he reaches the end- we might make some people raise twice as much cash for our cause."

Don O'Shei- "Yeah I would have liked to see Racer # 2 win since Racer #2 still owes us $300 entry fees- and we could have deducted it all from his winnings...HEY! GET OFF OF MY COURSE!- damn idiots! That top section wouldn't have had any criddleing if I had been able to place the offsets where I wanted them.........in Alaska and South Dakota."


Announcer-
"Let's hear from the starter."

Ed Economy "Well it came down to the start, and I was watching the racers all day and trying to figure who had the good start and who was running hot in practice. You know I only brought $2200 in cash (Waving hundred dollar bills wildly in racers faces) to buy slalom decks and I like to try and buy the pros decks before the race is over...that way they don't know if they are going to win any money- so I sometimes can get a better price. Also I know who is an up and coming racer so I can buy their stuff before it goes up in value- I've been looking at a 57 bedroom house in Encinitias with 6 jacuzzis and a hot tub and a private day spa for Danielle and her friends- I figure a few boards might cover the downpayment. So far I haven't gotten any of Dunn's Decks, and it looks like he is planning to be buried with them, but I have a shot at Chicken's Pocket Pistol that I have had my eye on since the World's last year." Racer #1 just spent some time in the mountains so I figured he had the edge. We'll all talk about this later over some beers at the hotel room. I do my best deals when the racers are good and drunk."

Hester-
"ED, Does this mean you owe me some beers? I heard someone bought a car with the cash from a pair of Indy suspension trucks."

Annoucer-
"Ed what would you have run?"

Ed Economy- "My longboard of course- dang kook!. I have no problem getting a 57 inch board through 6 foot cones. Get out of my face! You know I always ride longboards."

Announcer-
"Here we have one of the guys who was here all last night setting up the scaffolding- Mr. Arab- what did you think?"

Arab-
"I think the course sucked. I think all the courses suck- I didn't win this one- but I might win the next one, after all I have beaten ALL the FCR racers this tour."

Announcer -
"You beat every one head to head?

Arab-
"Well, no- some DQ'ed and I got to cruise to the finish. One guy was taken out by a hotdog truck during my run. Some didn't enter some of the races so I ...UHhhh I guess I beat them too. But I do keep stats on everyone I beat. I beat 'em all at one time or another, fair or not. Did you hear my son Nathan beat Tony Hawk's kid today? Since he is related to me, Nathan that is, in a way I guess I can say I beat Tony Hawk."

Announcer- "Beating Mr. Hawk is some feat. But you'll never be the skater Nathan is."

Arab- (not hearing) "Yeah....( lifting scaffolding ..out of breath).... and I did it on Indy's. I think it was pair number 987 that I bought I the summer of '81, the only year that Indy used to have Eye test minimum standards for their employees."

Announcer- "And you, You seem to be taking this all in while disassembling and reasssembling your board hundreds of times during this whole exchange...and you're not any where near California you're from New Hampshire ."

Terence Kirby- "Yes I am."

Announcer- "And what was your take on this historical race"

Terence Kirby " Well I think they both raced well, and dialed in their equipment well, I really can't say a bad thing about either one of them."

Annoucer "Why's that?"

Terence Kirby "I just don't know why....it's something my Parents made me do, they said if I ever wanted to run for President, someday that would be part of it."

Racer # 1 - Into microphone
"Well I would like to thank my sponsors, Bahne Skateboards, and also my wonderful wife Nannette Parsons, and I was glad that I could race as well as I could today. This was the first time I didn't have to help with the timing equipment for a race. I actually got practice runs, which I think really helped."

Annoucer- "And your take on the race?"

GBJ-
"Well, I looked at the racers in the starting gates- it was apparent immediately that it was going to be an interesting race".

Annoucer- "Why was that?"

GBJ-
"Well- the most interesting thing was that no mongo pusher made it to the finals- which was unusual to say the least. I spent years developing my mongo push- despite the fact that a starting ramp should negate the mongo push. The secret to Chaput's longevity and success - even in streetluge- where he pushes with his front hand, is nearly 100% attributable to his mongo push."

Annoucer- "Why is that? I can see he pushes with the front foot."

GBJ-
"Well you see- it's like magic. We really can't explain it. Either you are born with it or you're not. I tried to develop my own "Magic" by trying to force myself to ride mongo- pretty crippling to try to do in the first few tries".

Gilmour-
"I'm just waiting to be able to set a course with a rocket sled entry into the cones. Racer # 2 might have had a chance if it had been an unlimited push course. Besides all courses are either too tight or too loose for my tastes...by the way (to annoucer)you wouldn't happen to be able to loan me some money for dinner and you wouldn't happen to have some crash space available on the floor of your hotel for myself and a girlfriend?

Annoucer-
"Well the Hotel rooms are strictly only for ABC sports annoucers...sorry, Why didn't you enter this race Mr. Gilmour?

Gilmour-
"Well, since the surface wasn't 4000 grit certified I didn't feel it was worth it. But I did meet this interesting girl, Alexis, during qualifying.

Annoucer-
"That's my daughter."

Wesley Tucker-
"You know, next year they will probably hold a vintage Pro pseudo-parallel race. I'll be riding what I always ride. Figure.. it'll be me, Kosick and Brewington in no particular order- except Bruce will be last.

Brewington-
"C'mon you guys. Did any of you see my shirt? You don't stand a chance. Besides I've got Mollica paid off to let me advance- team wall street you know.

Wesley-
"Hey Bruce, Ain't Wall Street on the East Coast- always knew you wanted to be one of us."





That's all and back to Howard Cossell.
---------------------------------

This was a paraody- the actors whether real or imaginary were not injured, do not try this at home- No animals were abused as far as they knew it.

[Moderator]

1st WARNING Eric Groff.

Future contiued usage of such derogatory name calling will have you permanantly removed as a MODERATOR and registered user at http://www.slalomskateboarder.com

Delete the derogatory names and I will retract the warning.

Thank you.

[Eric Groff]

BraDUH-No E vs W, its just plain fact that you are a Moron and the East Coast gets a bad rap by Kooks like you that come on message boards and talk about something you have no concept or knowlegde about.

JG-You can talk all this Braking crap you want, as far as I'm concerned I hope it never plays a part in RACING, skateboards dont have brakes. Your analogys of slalom racing will only deter those that want to get involved from doing so.

Slalom is so simple anybody can do it at any level, heck you and BraDUH have proved that, You the Consemate Pro and he The Idiot Amateur, neither can win on a beginner course agaisnt pros, Lean Left Turn Left, Lean Right Turn Right.

Where Do I Buy Brakes For My Slalom Board?
If weight played any part, I would win every race, You guys just dont get it, do you.

EYE-I raced bikes in the early-mid 70's, I dont know if you are familier with the Manhattan Beach Classic in California, But my second race as a junior I won that race, Who got second? Greg Lamond, I didnt bother with drafting or breaking on a 3 lap race, to me that was a sprint, everybody said i didnt know what I was doing, I said I won!, I must have known something. our next match-up was a big to do, I got out to a fast start for the first 2 laps, on the 3rd I passed out and landed in the gutter from heat exhaustion, Greg went on to win.

[Jack Smith]

John Gilmour - GBJ was not asked to set a course that all skill levels could make.
Where do you get this stuff?

[David Eye]

JG; your analogy shows you know nothing about bike racing. Lance Armstrong does quite a few "race -around -the -block" type races; they-re called "Criteriums" or in N.Europe ; its called a Kermesse. Its by far the most common bike race in the U.S. and maybe even in Europe, since its easier to close a block or two of streets than to close 100-160 miles of road. You see them in about every major U.S. city and they are typically 1/3-2/3 mile long.
They are very popular in European pro-racing in the early and late season and a rider can make alot of cash riding them. This type of racing emphasizes all-out speed (sprinting ability) bike handling and accelerating out of the corners; crowds love them! The pace is held very high compared to a road -race, by "Primes", this is when a bell is rang as the lead group passes the start/ finish and the next one to the line wins the cash or prize. Sometimes the prime is offered to the pack and not the lead break away. This causes a high burn-out factor and many in contention for the overall win, blow it by going for too many or maybe by just going for one.
Having done alot of bike -racing when I was young, I can tell you its often just as challenging to win a 50 min. / 30 mile Criterium (around a city block)where the average speed is 30-32 mph and its elbow to elbow, than to win a 100 mile road-race where the pace rarely breaks 23-27 mph and a lot of that time, you're just "sitting-in." drafting the pack. Certainly the major “Tours” or multi-day stage-races like TDF carry the most prestige in cycling, but you are not even going to qualify without first riding a lot of criteriums, like them or not.
So, while I think I understand the point you are trying to make, JG, some things are just flat-out wrong; by making the course shorter and with less obstacles, you really don’t change the amount of ability necessary to do well, only the TYPE of ability (ie sprinting ability vs. endurance)needed to do well. Lance may focus on the TDF or the Giro, but many others who lack the day after day endurance (and a strong team!) do not.

To bring this back to slalom skateboarding, I would say that a beginner course would
be one that a beginner would set and be able to run clean most of the time. I cannot imagine any beginner making any of the past years FCR courses, unless the beginner
is very talented at some other type of skating that would lend him/her the skills to pull it off.
I think, then, there are deferent types of beginners; those who maybe beginners at slalom, but that same person maybe very experienced at freestyle or vert or downhill riding. Or a true beginner might be someone completely new to any-type of skateboarding. There would also be a “beginner course” or “easy” course by pro-skater standards that would still be difficult for someone new to slalom.

[John Gilmour]

Things fall at the same speed (in a vacuum)- but rolling can be another matter. Snowflakes fall slowly, but they can roll over 70mph in a powder avalanche.

Weight is a factor in downhill racing.

More weight carries more momentum on the flats- and even on lesser slopes.

It would be possible,...if the course setter deemed it desireable, to set a course where weight was a factor. A course setter could also set a course where weight might be less desireable. It all depends on how the cones are placed.

My comments on California's FCR courses being "beginner" courses are based on my observations that it does not take much skill to make some of the couses- this was by design of the course setter.

I would like to see some stratified racing in 2003 where the courses match more closely the abilities of the participants.

A cycling analogy would be this----
We may as well invite Lance Armstrong and all the top cyclists to race around your block several hundred times instead of doing the Tour De France. Lance would probably win...but would that race around the block show his ability to handle hills- his ability to pace himself through varied terrain, his ability to judge where his opponents were through technical and non technical sections...doubt it. Would it be as exciting for the spectators?.... doubt it. Would Lance call it Beginner Cycling racing?...most likely. Is it great racing?.....not really.

A lot of the FCR courses last year were "pumping courses/drag races" and often the winner was determined at the start. The start figured in heavily over short courses, and the skill set required to win was a fast pump and good start- particularly over the flatter courses.

Skills that weren't in much demand were course reading skills, braking skills, criddling (cone penalties too high to make criddling a competitive option), when to pump and when to glide, and body placement.

My calling the courses Beginner courses was to identify the base level of skater capable of making the course- for that pretty much determines the level of the course. This was of likely by design of the course setter as one of the requirements of the course.

It's time to set a few beginner courses that aren't overly challenging to the beginners and a few courses that are at least High Intermediate courses for the pros.

The only thing Pro level about MB 2002 was the Pros riding the course and the level of promotion of the contest. MB 2002 was a beginner level course. Just Ask Andy- he set it, and was told to set a course that could be made by skaters of all levels.

If time constraints of duel racing limit the number of courses set...then perhaps we should look at the size of the brackets and just run off the final 4 as duals. That way we would have time to run beginner level in the morning and pro level in the afternoon.

[Brady Mitchell]

GBJ,
You`re right, 1# is 1#. Maybe it`s mass AND wind resistance of weight ratios? We were running downhill against a steady 15mph wind and I was just about stopped at the bottom of the hill while the other rider, at 70# more than me kept rolling by...hmmmm?

[Brady Mitchell]

Arab,
Maybe I have my FACTS a little ascewed but I was just trying to make a point.

How many courses during last years FCR series were boasted as great courses?

Since you have all the facts, I`ll let you expand on this.

And for the love of god, please drop the E vs W thang!!!

Oh, and it`s Brady or bruddah....heh heh !!!

[Eric Groff]

BraDUH-Again you have displayed how little you know about Slalom, Slalom, Racing, The FCR Pro series and Me.

First off I complained more then anybody about a cone or 2 on the FCR courses, I have never called them beginner courses. Again before you talk out yer ass get it straight.

To show how little you know about Slalom racing and the FCR Pro Series, the numbers you use to show what a pro racer is, is so far from the actual facts, had you actually raced in more then the 1 race you have competed in over the last 2 years, you might know this info
Pro courses
Actual Pro Racers (those that earned money)
<b>Correct Answer: Those that raced for the money in a FCR Pro Series event, 56 total racers in 2002</b>
With 16 races, run by approx 60 racers at each race, there were only 3 money winners.
<b>Correct Answer: 15 FCR Pro Series races, Run by less then 35 per race on average, Money payed to the top 8 (except The Bear).</b>
That would mean there was approx 57 ametuers riding the pro courses. Majority rules?
<b>Correct Answer: NO, majority does not rule, unless you consider that over 2/3 of the racers won money last year then yes majority rules.
There was 23 different racers who earned money last year out of the 56 total who competed in the 15 FCR Pro Series events for 2002.</b>
And weren`t the AMs racing on the smae courses the PROS were?
<b>Correct Answer: No the Open class was racing on the FCR Pro Series courses with the Pros last year.</b>

Again BraDUH- you have not a f$%ing clue what you are talking about, And you wonder why the East Coast gets such a Bad Rap, with morons like you who havent the slightest inkling of how things work, or the slightest inkling of any slalom knowledge period, except for what you read here and elsewhere.

A beginner course is what you run down your driveway in that mecca of slalom, South FloriDUH .

You and JG don’t know what a pro racer is apparently.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ARAB on 2003-02-10 00:03 ]</font>

[Adam Trahan]

Cool post Brady.

I haven't thought of the pound of feathers and lead analogy. Mass and drag definately come into play, leverage, technique and all. You don't need to go back and check your stuff, I got it.

Anyway...

I can't speak for anyone except myself, but I would hope that FCR is setting race courses for racers. Call it what you will, begineer or beginner or professional alike, a race course no less. Fastest guy across the finish line is the winner. Slalom skateboarding at it's finest.

But then again, does this mean you have to win to be a "PRO"? Or say, if a child can make the course, does this make it too easy?

ARAB, I actually see your point. I read what you and John have posted this time and what ever reason John has come up for calling FCR courses "beginner" then he has some sort of reasoning behind this. Arab, you are calling him on this and well, I do see your point but could you give it a rest?

You made your point, did John?

Gilmour does not demand respect, he get's it from all of us because his actions are that of a seasoned racer, a professional, a pro. He has the respect of slalom skateboarders around the world and he didn't demand it, he earned it. He has worked very hard for this and a silly little post will not hurt him or you or FCR.

Brady, I would like to meet you at one of these beginner races one day. More than likely I will attend Elsinore and La Costa, hopefully Morro and or that ditch in New Mexico. If you are going to be at one of these beginner races, please try to find me and introduce yourself. Believe it or not, I am sort of shy.

Best Regards to all of you begineers and PROFESSIONALS alike. GBJ, we gotta have a beer and a smoke and sing kumbaya...

On 2003-02-09 22:32, Brady Mitchell wrote:
re: beginner courses...

I had a learning experiance today where I felt the heavier skater I was riding with had an advantage over me because of his weight.

Two issues come to mind, added traction because of weight and faster gravity roll because of weight (picture 1# of feathers falling vs 1# of lead).

Anyhoos, is it possible to set courses where weight is a factor vs skill?

And if FCR is (was) setting courses for the majority of thier racers, are they pushing the potential for actual slalom talent or holding it back?

And for what Arab keeps backing the courses of last years FCR series and yet he stated he complained the most about them, lets look at it as symantics play out..

Pro courses..
Actual Pro Racers (those that earned money)
With 16 races, run by approx 60 racers at each race, there were only 3 money winners. That would mean there was approx 57 ametuers riding the pro courses. Majority rules?
And weren`t the AMs racing on the smae courses the PROS were?

So if one money podium winner from FCR came out to da` Farm, would that be a PRO course?

[Andy Bittner]

Brady... You need to go back and look at Galileo's experiments from the Leaning Tower of Pisa, re-studying gravity and your basic sciences. Excluding the notion of wind resistance, which would slow down larger objects, objects of different weights fall at exactly the same rate. If I cleanly drop a bowling ball and a marble at the same time, they will strike the ground at the same time, regardless of the height. Furthermore, your example is even a little more pointless than that, because one pound is one pound, whether it's lead OR feathers. One pound of feathers would only fall slower because of air resistance.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Andy Bittner on 2003-02-09 23:22 ]</font>

[Brady Mitchell]

re: beginner courses...

I had a learning experiance today where I felt the heavier skater I was riding with had an advantage over me because of his weight.

Two issues come to mind, added traction because of weight and faster gravity roll because of weight (picture 1# of feathers falling vs 1# of lead).

Anyhoos, is it possible to set courses where weight is a factor vs skill?

And if FCR is (was) setting courses for the majority of thier racers, are they pushing the potential for actual slalom talent or holding it back?

And for what Arab keeps backing the courses of last years FCR series and yet he stated he complained the most about them, lets look at it as symantics play out..

Pro courses..
Actual Pro Racers (those that earned money)
With 16 races, run by approx 60 racers at each race, there were only 3 money winners. That would mean there was approx 57 ametuers riding the pro courses. Majority rules?
And weren`t the AMs racing on the smae courses the PROS were?

So if one money podium winner from FCR came out to da` Farm, would that be a PRO course?

[Eric Groff]

JG-Being one of the Greatest Professional Slalom Racers in the world, How come you have had such little success at FCR races with beginner courses, I would think someone of your stature would beable to win on anything.
You have been beat by beginners on beginner courses and pros on beginner courses.
What Gives?
What exactly is a Pro Course?
What exactly is a Pro Slalom Racer?
Will you be racing any of the FCR Pro series this year, or will you just race Pro Courses with beginners on the East Coast.

[John Gilmour]

I took the B engineering courses required and then got my Begineer Degree. Hte FCR courses are teh hsit.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-02-09 12:01 ]</font>

[Eric Groff]

JG-How did do you run the FCR begineer courses?

[John Gilmour]

One thing I tell beginners to do is to take a few runs with a piece of chalk in their pocket....and when they have a really good, fast, and accurate run, don't get off your board...coast to a stop and stoop down and outline your feet in chalk on your griptape.

Now you have a template for where your feet should be.

Practice pushing up to the first cone and try to drop your feet in the correct spot everytime.

You can also push a bit, pop your feet on the board, take a peek down before you enter teh course- adjust and then run the course...after a while you won't need to adjust your stance.

[Terry Kirby]

Eddy, practice getting your feet set right by the first turn. Also bring your offsets out further so you can learn to get around the deep ones with out your speed dying. I practiced offsets way off the fall line and it really helped . Use straight 6 footers to develope your pump . And most of all, pump up hill.TK

[Eddy Martinez]

I plan to race in an FCR race this year in the Open class. What type of offsets will I be facing. When I set up my practice courses I run 8 to 12 foot cones with 1 to 2 feet offset. I add Gillmourian curves to them as well. I also add 6 feet cones as well. I try to run straight cones as well as hybrid. I know that the East Coast skaters came up very fast because they set up very difficult courses. If any one can give some addvice it would be greatly appreciated. Eddy Martinez TEXAS OUTLAW.

[John Gilmour]

"By your definition a 4’ center straight course with 1’ offsets at 5’ set on a hill such as Avila would be a pro course, I’m so glad that nobody runs whatever your lame discription of a Pro Course would be. "
-ARAB

By my definition? No, that would be by your definition because I have never set nor run a 4 foot slalom course. Seeing as I wouldn't be able to make such a course I would have no part in setting one.

As for Losing to Duane Peters- that was cool. I like Duane and had lunch with him earlier in the day with his rad statuesque fire breathing girlfriend. Duanes a good skater and as Hardcore as they get..... I remember reading some story where he was being chased out of a parking garage and he vaulted several storys off the building into a dumpster....hurt both legs , crawled out of the dumpster and had to roll home on his skateboard using his hands.

(me being uncore would have not dragged himself home, nor would I have used my cell phone to ask my friends to get me out of the dumpster....because it would have taken the guts to jump first)

I don't mind losing to a guy like that.

[Wesley Tucker]

Arab, since you are determined to get answers, here's something to consider. I don't know of anyone who walked away from Avila Beach and said, "man, that is a great course!" Even you have said that slalom should be about "speed and not running obstacle courses!"

Well, the so-called giant slalom course was a ridiculous pinball-machine obstacle course that no one I have talked enjoyed racing. Is that the kind of giant slalom course a seasoned pro would set? Was it really a giant slalom course that took full advantage of the hill, the skill of the competitors and the quality of the equipment available? Or was it something thrown down willy nilly by a couple of guys who were concerned about "scrubbing off a lot of speed?"

So I have to ask was the Giant Slalom course at Avila Beach a course designed and appreciated by seasoned slalom pros? Or was it something else? If it wasn't a course for admiring pro skaters who travelled many miles and paid many dollars to ride, then it must have been . . . ?

Just remember, "beginner" doesn't have to mean simple or wide open with no offsets. It can also mean poorly thought out, poorly designed, poorly put down on the street and completely indifferent to the topography of the road. It would be a far stretch to convince me a "pro" would do that many things poorly.

[Eric Groff]

Adam-All us pros only run beginner courses, so I guess none of us are pros in Johns eyes, oh if only we could be REAL Pros like John Gilmour.

[Adam Trahan]

From http://www.dictionary.com

be·gin·ner Pronunciation Key (b-gnr) n.

1. One that begins.

2. One who is just starting to learn or do something; a novice.

It's all semantics...

[Eric Groff]

TK-I'm glad you had a good time, It was great watching you jump right on a new board and flat out rip. I'm sorry but according to John the course you ran at JPL was a begineer course, because 3 Children made clean runs on it. Hope next time we can Improve the speeds and diifficulty and figure out what a true Pro Course is?

[Terry Kirby]

The Course at JPL was what slalom racing is all about. It was the only course this year where I felt I needed a bigger board than I normally ride. It was fast, required a good line AND body angulation.Very Few people crashed but a few top riders DQ'ed a run. No one complained. No one. I told John he would have loved it. We need more hills and courses like it. To see one of JGs courses go to the Farm race on the contest page and see the TS video.. As long as I have skated w/ JG he never ever set a 4 foot or even 5 foot on center course. John is not into super tight, he is into fast and challenging (John correct me here if I am wrong).

[Eric Groff]

John-You arnt a very good Pro Slalom racer if you cant win on all the beginner courses you raced last year, 3 children raced JPL this past weekend, I'm curious if TK thought JPL was a beginner course, TK?

Anybody can make any course at any time with any skill level, Speed will determine how difficult a course will be, How fast you want to go will determine if you’re a pro or not.
It seems to me that the way you would define a pro course is if, a child, kid, amateur, open racer would not be able to make the course. That would then determine the course to be a Pro Course,
That would be the most absurd thing I have ever heard, Chaput couldn’t make the GS at La Costa 2002, All the kids that entered along with every Open racer but 1 and every Pro but 1 and every female made the GS course. You describe that course as a pro course, so since everybody made it except 1 pro and 1
open racer, what type of course was it?

By your definition a 4’ center straight course with 1’ offsets at 5’ set on a hill such as Avila would be a pro course, I’m so glad that nobody runs whatever your lame discription of a Pro Course would be.

Don’t make excusses for your lack of wins or podieums on the courses, Dude you got beat by Duane Peters on a course most people couldn’t make, so that was a Pro course by your definition and you got beat by a guy with 3 races under his belt, what does that make you?

[John Gilmour]

I think it fair to say that if a course can easily be made by a child it is a children's course. Dylan has gotten really good over the past year- so I think it is fair to exclude Dylan.

In this respect many of the FCR races I attended were beginner slalom.

If you wish to consider beginner slalom different from child's slalom- that's fine. IMHO they are both beginner slalom. If a child wants more challenge he can race in an older age class- like in many other sports.

Battle by the Bay GS and La Costa were pro slaloms.

Battle by the Bay Hybrid, MB 2001-2002, Breckenridge Hybrid, Bob Turner Memorial, Catalina GS, all were very easy courses for kids to make. IMHO they were beginner slalom.

I do think there should be beginner slalom available at every event and a MUST for any grass roots event- exceptions for a A National championship race or higher- where time constraints make it too difficult. But again if at all possible there should be a separate course for the beginners.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Gilmour on 2003-02-05 16:03 ]</font>

[Brian Parsons]

I can’t speak for John as to his definition of a beginner slalom course but I know that John traveled to DC for a race on a beginner slalom course that I set. I think that the longboard slalom course I set on Sunday in Folly beach was a beginner course. John traveled to that one. I was at LaCosta this year I think the course on the first day was a beginner level course. You could even say that the GS course John set in Boston was a beginner course. He was living in the Hamptons at the time so he traveled to that one.

My opinion of a beginner level course is one where new racers can build their confidence. 8-12ft cone spacing with mellow offset sections across the fall line that can be ridden without having to stretch out to reach around cones. Keeping the racer planted at their center of gravity.

I have set courses for our races in DC that were not beginner level courses and several guys end up with DQs and get discouraged. This past year at Da Farm race the GS course was an intermediate level course (That I thought absolutely rocked!) but a good portion of the racers there were beginners so you had a large percentage of the racers that did not record a time due to DQs. My view is that to grow the sport you must create an environment that appeals to everyone. GBJ and John are both great course setters when it comes to this. They know how to create courses that “cruise easy and race hard”. I have yet to master this but steal ideas every time I ride one of their courses.

If anyone wants an excel file of some of the courses I have set at the DC park & ride. Send me an email.

[Eric Groff]

John-Could you please define "Begineer Slalom" and tell us all the begineer slalom courses you traveled to last year.