2008 ISSA Rules Update - Section 3 (Equipment)

[Pat Chewning]

I believe rules should be as simple as possible.

.......

Here are my proposed equipment rules:

Initial take on this proposal:

1) Too much emphasis on specifying exact wheel (size) and bearing (type and size).
2) "Riding in standing position" is a technique, not an equipment rule.
3) Increased emphasis on equipment safety (deck soundly built, pads, gloves) -- this looks more applicable to downhill racing than slalom. The rules should "allow" or "require" or "prohibit" equipment -- but I don't think we should "recommend" equipment.
4) Banning wheels that "show a significant advantage" and are "not commercially available" is not a problem in slalom right now. If we have any problem in this area, it is TRUCKS that are not "reasonably priced", and "commercially available", yet might give a "significant advantage".
5) The whole can of worms about banning custom-built, expensive equipment is not a path I want to go down. Then we need to monitor what's available commercially, keep a list of banned items, etc. This adds complexity to the rules that I don't think we need.
6) Other than items 4 and 5, yes, this proposal looks simpler than the original draft.
7) The proposed rules don't prohibit clutches, brakes, propulsion devices, fairings, etc. I understand you think these don't need to be in the rules because "no reasonable person" would attempt to do this. Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but there are a few unreasonable people in the Slalom world who will try to do anything that is not expressly prohibited in the rules.
8) I agree that rules should be updated more often (yearly) .... that applies to a different section of the rules than EQUIPMENT...

[Marcus Rietema]

I believe rules should be as simple as possible. Rule books should be updated on a yearly basis. In my experience they are dynamic and ever changing as new situations arise and equipment trends change. I feel the safety specifications are quite relaxed and should be improved in the future. At least recommending pads and gloves is a start. I don't believe worrying about futuristic energy systems and crazy steering systems should be where we focus our energy. Even six wheelers have not proven to have an advantage. They just look weird...

One piece of equipment I have seen make a big difference are wheels like the Momo. These have shown a performance advantage but are not available for the average racer to purchase. I'm all for companies being allowed to innovate so they can bring better products to the market place. The Momo has proven its' benefits and has been around for more than a year, but still is only available to a select few. I feel these are the types of products that should either be made available for sale or banned from future use.

Here are my proposed equipment rules:

1. SKATEBOARD SPECIFICATIONS: Competitors are required to ride in a standing (upright) position.

A. DECK: The deck must be structurally sound and not pose a safety hazard. It can be any shape or size.

B. TRUCKS: The trucks must be lean steer activated. They can be commercially available or custom built.

C. BEARINGS: Any bearing that fits into a hub designed to fit standard 608 Bearings. SKF 608 Bearing Specifications: Bore 8mm (0.3150”), OD Race 22mm (0.8661”), Width 7mm (0.2756”)

D. WHEELS: Wheels can be a maximum diameter of one hundred thirty millimeters (130mm / 5 1/8”). If a particular wheel proves to have a significant performance advantage and is not made commercially available* for a reasonable price, it could be specifically banned in the future.

E. BINDINGS: Bindings or other devices attaching the shoes to the deck are prohibited.

*Commercially available means the product must be available for sale to at least 24 people outside the company.



2. PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT

A. HELMETS: Hard shell is required. Helmets can be full face or open face design. The helmet must be worn to the manufactures recommendations. The helmet strap must be worn tight and secure as designed. NO EXCEPTIONS!

B. FOOTWEAR: Shoes are required. They must be in good condition and laced buckled or secured as designed.

C. GLOVES: Full fingered, all leather or leather and Kevlar gloves are recommended.

D. ELBOW AND KNEE PADS: Protective padding for the knees and elbows is recommended.

[Pat Chewning]

Is there a way I can attach documents on this website or do I need to find a place to host them?

I can attach documents on this website -- I have the secret password and login name. Send it to me and I can store it and give you a link.

Alternatively, you can host it somewhere yourself and post a link.

My offer applies to anyone with alternative rule proposals.

[Marcus Rietema]

If you have an alternative proposal for the "Equipment" section, please post it here and then we can include it in the voting that will certainly be required to resolve this controversial section of the rules. (This applies to anyone)

Thanks for the clarification Pat. I'll put something together. Is there a way I can attach documents on this website or do I need to find a place to host them?

[Wesley Tucker]

I guess I was wrong about Jet Sticks.

But I still think ski poles and skateboard slalom shouldn't mix.

[Pat Chewning]

Are you talking about fairings on the board, shoes, body, helmet. Take it from my experience... This is a very difficult rule to enforce!!! The simple teardrop shape of a board could be considered a fairing...
Yes, I'm talking about all of the above -- it is all equipment.* The shape of the board is not a fairing, it is still a board. Just because it is difficult to enforce does not mean it should not be a rule.

*EXCEPTION: The "body" is not equipment. Some bodies are more aerodynamically shaped than others . This rule does not apply to the skater's body since that is not "equipment"

Do you seriously think someone is going achieve an advantage by adjusting their board as they're flying down a slalom course??? If someone did actually come up with something like this I'd sure like to see it! Something that created that much of an advantage and was detrimental to the sport, could always be banned in the future.
These potential "adjustable" devices detract from the sport whether they create an advantage or not.


I still don't understand this one? You've already addressed bindings in a previous rule. When you talk about handles and seats it sounds like you're referring to a street luge??? What are "Jet sticks"???
A handle and a seat are not bindings. A "Jet stick" was a plastic device that attached to the back of leather ski boots to support the calf when doing the "jet turn" (circa 1972 or so). It extended the interface between the skier and the ski from the ankle to just about mid-calf.


This just seems incredibly redundant to me... I guess you should add in grip tape, axle nuts, bushings, modified bushings, wheels with cores, wheels without cores, ceramic bearings, bearing spacers, mounting screws, mounting nuts, riser pads, angled riser pads, aluminum trucks, steel trucks, composite trucks, etc, etc, etc... where does it end...
I agree it is somewhat redundant. But not "incredibly" so. That's why it says "including but not limiting" .. It is a clarification that is not meant to be all-inclusive.


Why does it matter how lean steering is achieved?
It doesn't matter how it is achieved, as long as there is at least one mechanism to achieve it.

If you have an alternative proposal for the "Equipment" section, please post it here and then we can include it in the voting that will certainly be required to resolve this controversial section of the rules. (This applies to anyone)

[Wesley Tucker]

Marcus,

I believe jet sticks are those ski poles some tried to bring to slalom in the early '80s.

Although I think they are maiming waiting to happen, I can also see where in GS someone who's very adept at their use could use them to PUSH from cone to cone. I don't know if it would be an advantage or not, but then again I have no desire to find out. Slalom is about turning, pumping, gravity and traction. Devices beyond a deck, trucks and wheels and a few common accessories like toe stops and C blocks keep it that way.

Pat's initiative here is to nip in the bud right now anyone getting too clever in the future and trying to turn slalom skateboarding into a technological arms race with endless gadgets being brought to the course.

Yes, it could be considered overkill and probably needs editing, but at least most every conceivable gadget is here for review. It's better in this process to DELETE than to realize later something was forgotten and attempt to add it to the list.

As far as fairings are concerned, I can't imagine a concept where any sort of fairing would be adapted to slalom. Trying to incorporate a fairing while trying to steer left and right just doesn't add up for me. And when considering how fast downhill ski slalomers go and the fact they have eschewed fairings for over a 100 years, I think it's safe to say it will be a very long time before we see any sort of draft management device stuck on a slalom board.

Of course, there's the issue of Spandex, but that's probably another rule (somewhere under lewd and lascivious behavior on race day.)

[Marcus Rietema]

1. EQUIPMENT
1.1. REQUIRED EQUIPMENT
Helmet
Shoes
Skateboard
Deck (rigid or semi-rigid flat platform for the feet) This rule makes concave and kicktails illegal!
4 Wheels This specific rule should be voted on by the membership!
At least one lean-to-steer mechanism attaching the wheels to the deck This rule should read, "Skateboards must be lean steer activated."
1.2. PROHIBITED EQUIPMENT
Propulsion devices or mechanisms
Brakes, clutches or other devices providing torque to the wheels.
Bindings or other devices attaching the shoes to the deck.
Aerodynamic fairings, parachutes, sails, or other such devices. What is the scope of this rule? What is the definition of a fairing?
Mechanisms which alter the flex, camber, stiffness, steering devices or other characteristics of the equipment during the race. Is this really a potential problem? Is this rule even needed? What are you trying to ban?
Handles, seats, supports, or other equipment that provides an interface from the racer to the board other than the sole of the shoe. Is this really a potential problem? Is this rule even needed? What are you trying to ban?
Equipment that is consumed, discarded, or jettisoned during the race.
Steering mechanisms activated by means other than lean-to-steer.
1.3. ALLOWED EQUIPMENT (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO)
Foot stops or other devices to limit the lateral movement of the feet on the deck.
Concave, kick-tail, camber, and other shape modifications to the flat deck.
Additional protective equipment (knee pads, elbow pads, gloves, etc)
Bearings for the wheels.

Why is “Allowed Equipment” even in here? It’s not needed!! You have “Required Equipment” and “Prohibited Equipment”. Those are the only things that need to be in the rules. Everything else should be allowed.

I agree with:
Removing the word "flat"
Voting on controversial items such as the # of wheels.

I will explain:
Fairings: Devices which reduce aerodynamic drag.

Not allowing devices which alter flex ............: Because I want the ONLY control between the racer and the wheels to be achieved by foot interaction with the deck, either by leaning or weight-shifting. No levers, cables, voice-activated devices, turnbuckles, or other items interacting with the skateboard during the race.

Not allowing handles, supports, seats ........ ; Because I want the only interface between the racer and the board to be through the sole of the shoe and not through extra devices. "Supports" would include bindings or "jet sticks" or other devices to give a "better" attachment of the shoe or lower leg to the deck.

Allowed Equipment is a clarification section just to make sure that people won't assume (wrongly) that "flat" means so flat that foot stops, kicktails, camber, concave are not allowed. It prevents stupid questions like "You didn't say anything about bearings, can't I have bearings?"

This just seems incredibly redundant to me... I guess you should add in grip tape, axle nuts, bushings, modified bushings, wheels with cores, wheels without cores, ceramic bearings, bearing spacers, mounting screws, mounting nuts, riser pads, angled riser pads, aluminum trucks, steel trucks, composite trucks, etc, etc, etc... where does it end... If rules are well written there should be very little confusion

I don't understand:
The question about "scope".
Are you talking about fairings on the board, shoes, body, helmet. Take it from my experience... This is a very difficult rule to enforce!!! The simple teardrop shape of a board could be considered a fairing...

I disagree:
The lean-to-steer function is achieved through a mechanism. Therefore, calling for a lean-to-steer mechanism to be required makes sense.

Not allowing devices which alter flex ............: Because I want the ONLY control between the racer and the wheels to be achieved by foot interaction with the deck, either by leaning or weight-shifting. No levers, cables, voice-activated devices, turnbuckles, or other items interacting with the skateboard during the race.

Do you seriously think someone is going achieve an advantage by adjusting their board as they're flying down a slalom course??? If someone did actually come up with something like this I'd sure like to see it! Something that created that much of an advantage and was detrimental to the sport, could always be banned in the future.

Not allowing handles, supports, seats ........ ; Because I want the only interface between the racer and the board to be through the sole of the shoe and not through extra devices. "Supports" would include bindings or "jet sticks" or other devices to give a "better" attachment of the shoe or lower leg to the deck.

I still don't understand this one? You've already addressed bindings in a previous rule. When you talk about handles and seats it sounds like you're referring to a street luge??? What are "Jet sticks"???

Allowed Equipment is a clarification section just to make sure that people won't assume (wrongly) that "flat" means so flat that foot stops, kicktails, camber, concave are not allowed. It prevents stupid questions like "You didn't say anything about bearings, can't I have bearings?"

This just seems incredibly redundant to me... I guess you should add in grip tape, axle nuts, bushings, modified bushings, wheels with cores, wheels without cores, ceramic bearings, bearing spacers, mounting screws, mounting nuts, riser pads, angled riser pads, aluminum trucks, steel trucks, composite trucks, etc, etc, etc... where does it end...

I don't understand: The question about "scope".

Are you talking about fairings on the board, shoes, body, helmet. Take it from my experience... This is a very difficult rule to enforce!!! The simple teardrop shape of a board could be considered a fairing...


The lean-to-steer function is achieved through a mechanism. Therefore, calling for a lean-to-steer mechanism to be required makes sense.[/quote]

Why does it matter how lean steering is achieved?

[Pat Chewning]

Pat,

If your proposal is to LIMIT skateboards to four wheels, then you need to modify what you say:

- 4 wheels.

You're going to laugh at this, but six-wheelers have four wheels . . . plus two more. Technically a six wheeler would meet this standard.

If your proposal is eliminate six wheelers from ISSA sanctioned events, then I really suggest is says "Four wheels only." This eliminates six wheelers, 2-wheelers, 3-wheelers (sort of a tricycle arrangement) and anything Lonnie Toft designs.

That is, IF that was your intention.

Yes, the intent was to start with a more "traditional" definition of skateboard -- with exactly 4 wheels.

I understand that it will require an official vote to close this out.

[Pat Chewning]

1. EQUIPMENT
1.1. REQUIRED EQUIPMENT
Helmet
Shoes
Skateboard
Deck (rigid or semi-rigid flat platform for the feet) This rule makes concave and kicktails illegal!
4 Wheels This specific rule should be voted on by the membership!
At least one lean-to-steer mechanism attaching the wheels to the deck This rule should read, "Skateboards must be lean steer activated."
1.2. PROHIBITED EQUIPMENT
Propulsion devices or mechanisms
Brakes, clutches or other devices providing torque to the wheels.
Bindings or other devices attaching the shoes to the deck.
Aerodynamic fairings, parachutes, sails, or other such devices. What is the scope of this rule? What is the definition of a fairing?
Mechanisms which alter the flex, camber, stiffness, steering devices or other characteristics of the equipment during the race. Is this really a potential problem? Is this rule even needed? What are you trying to ban?
Handles, seats, supports, or other equipment that provides an interface from the racer to the board other than the sole of the shoe. Is this really a potential problem? Is this rule even needed? What are you trying to ban?
Equipment that is consumed, discarded, or jettisoned during the race.
Steering mechanisms activated by means other than lean-to-steer.
1.3. ALLOWED EQUIPMENT (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO)
Foot stops or other devices to limit the lateral movement of the feet on the deck.
Concave, kick-tail, camber, and other shape modifications to the flat deck.
Additional protective equipment (knee pads, elbow pads, gloves, etc)
Bearings for the wheels.

Why is “Allowed Equipment” even in here? It’s not needed!! You have “Required Equipment” and “Prohibited Equipment”. Those are the only things that need to be in the rules. Everything else should be allowed.

I agree with:
Removing the word "flat"
Voting on controversial items such as the # of wheels.

I will explain:
Fairings: Devices which reduce aerodynamic drag.

Not allowing devices which alter flex ............: Because I want the ONLY control between the racer and the wheels to be achieved by foot interaction with the deck, either by leaning or weight-shifting. No levers, cables, voice-activated devices, turnbuckles, or other items interacting with the skateboard during the race.

Not allowing handles, supports, seats ........ ; Because I want the only interface between the racer and the board to be through the sole of the shoe and not through extra devices. "Supports" would include bindings or "jet sticks" or other devices to give a "better" attachment of the shoe or lower leg to the deck.

Allowed Equipment is a clarification section just to make sure that people won't assume (wrongly) that "flat" means so flat that foot stops, kicktails, camber, concave are not allowed. It prevents stupid questions like "You didn't say anything about bearings, can't I have bearings?"

I don't understand:
The question about "scope".

I disagree:
The lean-to-steer function is achieved through a mechanism. Therefore, calling for a lean-to-steer mechanism to be required makes sense.

[Marcus Rietema]

1. EQUIPMENT
1.1. REQUIRED EQUIPMENT
Helmet
Shoes
Skateboard
Deck (rigid or semi-rigid flat platform for the feet) This rule makes concave and kicktails illegal!
4 Wheels This specific rule should be voted on by the membership!
At least one lean-to-steer mechanism attaching the wheels to the deck This rule should read, "Skateboards must be lean steer activated."
1.2. PROHIBITED EQUIPMENT
Propulsion devices or mechanisms
Brakes, clutches or other devices providing torque to the wheels.
Bindings or other devices attaching the shoes to the deck.
Aerodynamic fairings, parachutes, sails, or other such devices. What is the scope of this rule? What is the definition of a fairing?
Mechanisms which alter the flex, camber, stiffness, steering devices or other characteristics of the equipment during the race. Is this really a potential problem? Is this rule even needed? What are you trying to ban?
Handles, seats, supports, or other equipment that provides an interface from the racer to the board other than the sole of the shoe. Is this really a potential problem? Is this rule even needed? What are you trying to ban?
Equipment that is consumed, discarded, or jettisoned during the race.
Steering mechanisms activated by means other than lean-to-steer.
1.3. ALLOWED EQUIPMENT (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO)
Foot stops or other devices to limit the lateral movement of the feet on the deck.
Concave, kick-tail, camber, and other shape modifications to the flat deck.
Additional protective equipment (knee pads, elbow pads, gloves, etc)
Bearings for the wheels.

Why is “Allowed Equipment” even in here? It’s not needed!! You have “Required Equipment” and “Prohibited Equipment”. Those are the only things that need to be in the rules. Everything else should be allowed.

[Erik Basil]

For reference on the matter. http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/phpBB ... php?t=5136

[Wesley Tucker]

Pat,

If your proposal is to LIMIT skateboards to four wheels, then you need to modify what you say:

- 4 wheels.

You're going to laugh at this, but six-wheelers have four wheels . . . plus two more. Technically a six wheeler would meet this standard.

If your proposal is eliminate six wheelers from ISSA sanctioned events, then I really suggest is says "Four wheels only." This eliminates six wheelers, 2-wheelers, 3-wheelers (sort of a tricycle arrangement) and anything Lonnie Toft designs.

That is, IF that was your intention.

[Robert Gaisek]

Sorry.......my brain is missing.

[Pat Chewning]

What about the "toestopper" or what the name is for it??

· Handles, seats, supports, or other equipment that provides an interface from the racer to the board other than the sole of the shoe.

3.3. Allowed Equipment (including, but not limited to)
· Foot stops or other devices to limit the lateral movement of the feet on the deck.

· Concave, kick-tail, camber, and other shape modifications to the flat deck.

· Additional protective equipment (knee pads, elbow pads, gloves, etc)

· Bearings for the wheels.

Sure looks like it is allowed to me. (Not listed under Prohibited, Listed under Allowed)

RTFM

[Robert Gaisek]

What about the "toestopper" or what the name is for it??

· Handles, seats, supports, or other equipment that provides an interface from the racer to the board other than the sole of the shoe.

[Toby Warg]

I do not use more than four wheels, but I am against restrictions.
I suggest that there should be no limit in the number of trucks or wheels on the deck.

[Pat Chewning]

Does the rule '4 wheels' mean that there cannot be less or more than 4 wheels?

That is correct. 4 wheels, not 3, not 5, not 6

My intent was to start with the "traditional" definition.

I expect there to be some controversy and discussion.

I expect we will be putting this to an official vote.

But I'd like to see if people want more restriction or less restriction on equipment (from the traditional definition).

[Toby Warg]

Does the rule '4 wheels' mean that there cannot be less or more than 4 wheels?

[Pat Chewning]

Two trucks (steering mechanism) is needed to turn the skateboard. Wouldn't that be easier and avoid any strange objects showing up at the race site.

Calling for two steering mechanisms MIGHT avoid any strange objects....
But: How many steering mechanisms are in a STROKER type of truck? (I count one mechanism for each wheel for a total of 4)

Only one steering mechanism is needed to turn the skateboard (by physics). We may require (by rule):
A) At least one.
B) At least two.
C) Exactly two.
D) At least one, but no more than the number of wheels (4).

I started simple with suggesting "at least one".

[Jani Soderhall]

One truck (steering mechanism) is needed to turn the skateboard.

Is there an alternative proposal?

Two trucks (steering mechanism) is needed to turn the skateboard. Wouldn't that be easier and avoid any strange objects showing up at the race site.

/Jani

[Pat Chewning]

I did not understand this:

"At least one lean-to-steer mechanism attaching the wheels to the deck"

Does it mean it's ok with one truck?

My thinking went this way:

One truck (steering mechanism) is needed to turn the skateboard.

The other truck (wheel mounting mechanism) need not steer the skateboard. In fact, some people are de-wedging the rear truck so much that it is approaching the point of adding no steering.

Is there an alternative proposal?

[Hans Koraeus]

I did not understand this:

"At least one lean-to-steer mechanism attaching the wheels to the deck"

Does it mean it's ok with one truck?

[Pat Chewning]

3. Equipment
3.1. Required Equipment
· Helmet

· Shoes

· Skateboard

· Deck (rigid or semi-rigid flat platform for the feet)

· 4 Wheels

· At least one lean-to-steer mechanism attaching the wheels to the deck

3.2. Prohibited Equipment
· Propulsion devices or mechanisms

· Brakes, clutches or other devices providing torque to the wheels.

· Bindings or other devices attaching the shoes to the deck.

· Aerodynamic fairings, parachutes, sails, or other such devices.

· Mechanisms which alter the flex, camber, stiffness, steering devices or other characteristics of the equipment during the race.

· Handles, seats, supports, or other equipment that provides an interface from the racer to the board other than the sole of the shoe.

· Equipment that is consumed, discarded, or jettisoned during the race.

· Steering mechanisms activated by means other than lean-to-steer.

3.3. Allowed Equipment (including, but not limited to)
· Foot stops or other devices to limit the lateral movement of the feet on the deck.

· Concave, kick-tail, camber, and other shape modifications to the flat deck.

· Additional protective equipment (knee pads, elbow pads, gloves, etc)

· Bearings for the wheels.

I placed a more "traditional" specification for the equipment here. I expect some controversy and comments. I expect the end result will be a vote.

If you have comments, I would appreciate a suggested wording of what you think might work. Or at least tell me if you want the rule to be more or less restrictive on equipment.

[Pat Chewning]

Put Comments for Section 3 here.

You may view the draft rules here in 3 forms:

As a WORD document: http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... -DRAFT.doc

As a PDF document:http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... FT-0_2.pdf

As a Webpage:http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... -DRAFT.htm