ISSA World Record Rules -- Proposal and Discussion

[GARY GLASSER]

Records

I think that we can still recognize groups for a record. Ex. Women, kids under 16, the old bones. The idea that there are several areas means more people trying. (maybe call them Prime Records and Main Records, something like that. Main will be for the old bones kids and women and Prime for the Men vs Women, any age) Just throwing stuff out there.

I am against the ramp, box start at this time. If you can run hot into the first cone pulled by a Porsche, so be it. (Imagine one of the ColoRADo kids taking a 1 mile run into the first cone at Rist Canyon...at 65 mph!!!!)

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

Will it be voted on every Detail ?

If you vote on every detail you loose the view for the whole WR-Concept.

I want to vote for a Concept and don't for detail points which gives a new concept in the end.

Why not a proposal (concept) from the BOD ? And proposals (concept) from Members who want to do a proposal ? And than vote for a whole concept.

What we are doing here is just a workgroup which works on one variant. I as a Member want to choose the best variant from 3-4 variants.

Before discussing about the details. The question should be "What is the goal for the WR-Concept" or "How does the Result look like"

/J-Rad

[Pat Chewning]

See the 1st post in this topic area. I have started a draft of the poll questions for ISSA members to resolve some of the alternatives around World Records. If you want me to change the poll questions (clarify, add, delete, make less biased -- whatever), then please do so in this topic area.

I plan on launching the poll approx March 15th and closing approx March 30th.

[Martin Drayton]

7.1 Initial World Records for 100 cones.
Take also into account Martin Sweeney as the first World Record who we could say did start it all off. Then the once proposed is also ok and done according to the rules.

7.2 50-cones
No world Record initially exist

7.2 25-cones
No world Record initially exist.

Corky, as they say in the US, "Whatever"...Michael Dong is probably equally bothered.
That little organisation called Guinness recognise it (it was their idea), which is good enough for the US Government and consequently my Green Card is within sight. Also, due to the TV program, another 235 million people now know that skateboard slalom exists...
Have a nice day I'll leave you guys to it.

Martin.

[Pat Chewning]

Well, as long as it's OK with the vindictive little prick who purposefully blocked any links to Slalomskateboarder.com for five years.

Yes. Let's ask if he's OK with it.

Better yet, f#@k him and his 25-cone carnival ride. No ISSA recognition for this ridiculous bullshit.

Now you know how I'll vote.

Wes, can you separate your personal feelings for Adam and NCDSA from what the ISSA members might want, and whether or not the NCDSA.com CyberSlalom course is a reasonable and well-defined way to establish standardized world records for skateboarding?

Adam has stopped blocking links to slalomskateboarder.com Adam has set up a forum for ISSA discussions on NCDSA. I don't see why we can't move forward and let previous errors in policy in the past...

If you want to argue that the 25-cone NCDSA.com CyberSlalom is not a suitable method for establishing world records based on the course specifics, or having too many record courses, or it's too easy, or some other merit-based argument, then I'm all ears.

[Wesley Tucker]

I will check with NCDSA to see if they have any objections to the ISSA recognizing world records set with a 25-cone course. I thought that NCDSA had a trademark on "Cyberslalom" (the name) ...... but of course not the **IDEA** of holding 25-cone races. We can probably work with them on this.

Adam at NCDSA has indicated that he is OK with the ISSA recognizing world records for the 25-cone course as long as we title and credit the course as the "Ncdsa.com CyberSlalom" course.

Sounds good to me. So this is not an obstacle. All we have to do is to decide whether this form of course (25 cone, 6 foot, 0-cone allowance, push start, etc) is the type of course that the ISSA would want to recognize for world records.

-- Pat

Well, as long as it's OK with the vindictive little prick who purposefully blocked any links to Slalomskateboarder.com for five years.

Yes. Let's ask if he's OK with it.

Better yet, f#@k him and his 25-cone carnival ride. No ISSA recognition for this ridiculous bullshit.

Now you know how I'll vote.

[Hans Koraeus]

Here's the good old topic for you with the world records and rules discussion.

Here's the most recent topic for you about world records (and rules discussion).

Here is the last "inofficial rules" set up through discussions since way back.

Seems there is an endless need for reminding of the 100 cone rules:

100 cone rules ver 1.3
-------------------------------------------
1. Course
100 straight "full sized" cones, timed from the middle of first cone to the middle of the last cone.

2. Cone penalty
Cone penalty 0.1 sek for each "cone hit". (Cone limit to be discussed. 11 cones and more is a DQ?)

- "Full sized" = Minimum base diameter 12,5 cm / 5" and minimum hight 20,5 cm / 8".
- "Cone hit" = Fallen cone or outside base circle.

3. Official World record titles
- Fastest run (time with cone penalties)
- Fastest clean run (time with no cones displaced)

4. Official results/events
Results from a 100-cone discipline on a minimum Prime status event. 2 competition runs for each racer. Best time counts (including cone penalty of course).

-------------------------------------------

Blaze into a 100 cone straight course with whatever start you like, on any hill, with any slope, with any surface, with any wind, with any cone spacing in any temperature and adjust your time with penalties. The smallest adjusted time wins.

Do it with your friends and you have an unofficial record. Do it at an official event and you might just break the official world record.

This is the easiest way to handle different courses and still be able to compete against the same World Record.

Something to note with these rules also is that you can never alone or with a couple of friends set up a course and make official World Records.

Lucas record from -95 was set with these rules. And the rules was done to take into account Martin Sweeneys record from before that.

What is missing is a shorter version for Winter/Indoor events. (25-30 cones)
And a medium long outdoor version. (around 50-60 cones)

4.1 Course type
Three different types like 100, 50, 25 cones is good . Good to have options for the organizers which fit the best for the occasion. In

4.2 Race classes
The normal event classes are there. Open and Junior. Male and Female. Quite ok. I don't know how much the Masters class is needed though.

5.1-5.3 25, 50, 100 course description
In my view they could all be the same as in the old "un-official" rules...

100 cone rules ver 1.3
-------------------------------------------
1. Course
100 straight "full sized" cones, timed from the middle of first cone to the middle of the last cone.

2. Cone penalty
Cone penalty 0.1 sek for each "cone hit". (Cone limit to be discussed. 11 cones and more is a DQ?)

- "Full sized" = Minimum base diameter 12,5 cm / 5" and minimum hight 20,5 cm / 8".
- "Cone hit" = Fallen cone or outside base circle.

3. Official World record titles
- Fastest run (time with cone penalties)
- Fastest clean run (time with no cones displaced)

4. Official results/events
Results from a 100-cone discipline on a minimum Prime status event. 2 competition runs for each racer. Best time counts (including cone penalty of course).

-------------------------------------------

Blaze into a 100 cone straight course with whatever start you like, on any hill, with any slope, with any surface, with any wind, with any cone spacing in any temperature and adjust your time with penalties. The smallest adjusted time wins.

Do it with your friends and you have an unofficial record. Do it at an official event and you might just break the official world record.

Simple and clean.
Don't care about flat or steepness. It will be handled by the free cone spacing.
Don't care about start. The start can be what you like. But since in these rules a minimum Prime status is demanded it will exclude the more exotic ones. I.e. normally there will be a start ramp under the normal ISSA rules.


7.1 Initial World Records for 100 cones.
Take also into account Martin Sweeney as the first World Record who we could say did start it all off. Then the once proposed is also ok and done according to the rules.

7.2 50-cones
No world Record initially exist

7.2 25-cones
No world Record initially exist.

Dongs record is for the Cyber Slalom (I guess even though they don't seem to be the same) that I think is a whole different kind of a discipline with specific rules invented by NCDSA. See http://www.ncdsa.com/cyber_slalom.asp
Don't know if we are just to steal that idea. And if we want it to become ISSA Cyber Slalom rules then for me it is a 4:th discipline with very specific/strange (existing) rules. And if so maybe we should just change the other "25-cone" to "30-cone" instead to make them differ.

[Pat Chewning]

I will check with NCDSA to see if they have any objections to the ISSA recognizing world records set with a 25-cone course. I thought that NCDSA had a trademark on "Cyberslalom" (the name) ...... but of course not the **IDEA** of holding 25-cone races. We can probably work with them on this.

Adam at NCDSA has indicated that he is OK with the ISSA recognizing world records for the 25-cone course as long as we title and credit the course as the "Ncdsa.com CyberSlalom" course.

Sounds good to me. So this is not an obstacle. All we have to do is to decide whether this form of course (25 cone, 6 foot, 0-cone allowance, push start, etc) is the type of course that the ISSA would want to recognize for world records.

-- Pat

[Ramón Königshausen]

I would propose to include the Ramp into the rules. No definitions on construction. Just include the distance (3-4 meters like on races) to the first cone to the rules.

Well then sorry for my pitiful suggestion but then I'd like to use Danny Way's ramp he used to jump over the Chinese Wall.

rmn

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

Pat,

please change my proposal to one course (100 Cones) in female/male categorie. (two world records)

I would propose to include the Ramp into the rules. No definitions on construction. Just include the distance (3-4 meters like on races) to the first cone to the rules.

That means three variable (the slope/location, distance between the Cones and the hight of the ramp) are to be set by every organizer who holds a WR event.

/J-Rad

[Jack Smith]

Ever heard of world records for different age classes? I haven't.

Most sports that have World World Records based on time/distance are divided into age group categories.

For the 25, 50, 75, 100 or whatever number of cone record to have any validity, the start must be the same. Be it ramp, push, tow in, roll in from a big hill, you must choose one and stick with it.

For example the Men's 100m dash record is somewhere around 9.79 (I think), this is of course from a starting block start. The athlete who holds this record, could probably run the same distance in the "sub 8 second range" if he were allowed to have a 25m "flying start".

[Donald Campbell]

very good suggestion ramon and sooooooooooooooo true!

[Ramón Königshausen]

Ok leave the age groups away for me and you get 4 different world records.

Ever heard of world records for different age classes? I haven't.

e.g. the pyhsical strenght of an adolescent varies from individual to individual. Not every 16-year old rider is able to win a national championship in the men's category...


rmn

[Pat Chewning]

All,

Are these proposals for 2009?

Speaking specifically and only about the 50 cones guiness record. We'll be adhearing to the rules as Guiness states them. Doesn't that make sense?

Joe

Joe, I thought that these proposals would be for "Now and in the future" -- that is, they become effective once we decide on them, and they are constant until they need fixing.

That's just my opinion.


Another opinion of mine is that the Guiness method of timing the 50-cone course is wrong. Their timing specification is that you time the ENTRY into to the course and the EXIT out of the course. That is, time from the front-most part of the skateboard for the start, and the rear-most part of the skateboard for the finish. I think the timing should be consistent from start to finish. (e.g. Front wheel to front wheel).


I think I can say with high confidence that we (members of the ISSA) know a lot more about running skateboard races and timing them than Guiness. We should be telling them who has earned a proper world-record, not the other way around.

[Pat Chewning]

18 World Records is a bit too much.

Should we have age-group classes for world records? (Current proposal is 3 age classes)

Should we have no MALE/FEMALE classes for world records? (Current proposal is 2 classes)

Should we have 1 course, 2 courses, or 3 courses? (Current proposal is 3 courses)


Muliply all of these together and you get 18 world records.

JRAD is proposing only 1 course (100-Cone) (Therefore only 6 world records)
Ramon is proposing at least keeping two courses (50-Cone and 100-cone) (Therefore 12 world records)
Wes is proposing not doing the 25-cone course (therefore at most 12 world records)

I think I see a poll comming up with a vote for each course type......

[Ramón Königshausen]

That means that just a few rules need to be settled:

-Ramp-Start
-distanze to the first Cone
-Cone Penalty
-max Cone Penalty

I find those are too many requirements. One will have to have a ramp to be allowed to lay down a world record. The least possible amount of specifications should be used. No ramp means no restrictions on its construcion are needed, no specifictions on the distance between the ramp and the first cone etc.

What is important maybe is if it is allowed to use a light beam or if it can be tape switch only.

Furthermore, 100 cones are very much. You'll first have to find a good spot where you can place 100 cones. With 50 cones you'll be able to do this at the normal practising area...100 cones needs a of preperation and it is much a greater effort to lay down a good time (which would be an agrument for the 100 cone-record).


rmn

[Jadranko Radovanovic]

18 World Records is a bit too much.

One World Record (100 Cones) in three categories (Men, Women, Juniors) is enough!

The World Record holder should be the fastest men/women/junior arround 100 Cones.

That means that just a few rules need to be settled:

-Ramp-Start
-distanze to the first Cone
-Cone Penalty
-max Cone Penalty

The distanz between the Cones can be variable. Big distanz = long way trough the 100 Cones, Small distanz = short way risiko higher to hit Cones.

I would like too see a separate Website for this, which explains the rules and show the World Record holders, with an Calender for the next World Record breaking attempts.

The propesed version with 18 titles will be a sale out and the whole World Rekord thing will be just somthing for statistics.

/J-Rad

[Joe Iacovelli]

All,

Are these proposals for 2009?

Speaking specifically and only about the 50 cones guiness record. We'll be adhearing to the rules as Guiness states them. Doesn't that make sense?

Joe

[Karl Floitgraf]

For the sake of World Records it shouldn't make a difference how you start. If you can stay in the course when coming in super super hot I believe more power to you. Just my opinion though.

[Martin Drayton]

What age does Masters start at in the ISSA?

[Pat Chewning]

I will check with NCDSA to see if they have any objections to the ISSA recognizing world records set with a 25-cone course. I thought that NCDSA had a trademark on "Cyberslalom" (the name) ...... but of course not the **IDEA** of holding 25-cone races. We can probably work with them on this.

Good point about the starts, the rules probably need something like this:

50-cone and 100-cone: "Starts may be accomplished in any manner."

25-cone: "Starts are by pushing." (This can be combined with the description of the push-start box.

[Wesley Tucker]

My initial reaction:

The 50 and 100-cone records sound reasonable.

The ISSA should DROP the 25-cone criteria layed out in the proposal. It's nothing more than the ISSA absconding with Neil Gendzwil and NCDSA's Cyber Slalom. What's more is the Cyber Slalom is even now defunct as far as ISSA is concerned because it's a sanctioned and mandatory PUSH start. The ISSA and it's members are so much all over ramp starts that the box start for cyber slalom is now passe'.

Which of course then leads to the question of ramps for the 50 and 100-cone records. Do we leave it alone, mandate ramps of a certain height or just make it going for broke? The proposal has the start line at the first cone. We could say it can be done from a start ramp, a box start, an unlimited push start, towed in by a Porsche 911 or screaming down Mount Kilimanjaro and hitting the course on a flat run out.

I'm not complaining about the proposed 50 and 100-cones rules (I am about the 25-cone event,) just wondering how we establish the ENTRY into the course? Or do we?

[Pat Chewning]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND EFFORT. THE RULES ARE IN PLACE AND EFFECTIVE 06JUNE2008:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... ecords.pdf



Enclosed is a proposal to formalize the rules for setting World Records. Please discuss here, and then we can finalize these soon.

Poll Questions for ISSA World Records

1) Which overall proposal for ISSA-recognized World Records should be pursued?
A) A complete proposal for a timed 100-cone, ramp-start, 10-cone allowance, record described here:
http://www.pscontest.ch/project/jodli/C ... nes_WR.doc
B) A proposal for World Record recognition of the cumulative "most wins" of races.
C) A proposal for 3 course types (25, 50, 100 cone) basically following the way these courses have been run already, modified with individual poll questions for those controversial areas or areas that need clarification. Proposal here:
http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/ISSA/ ... ecords.pdf
D) The ISSA should not officially recognize World Records.

Questions 2-9 are clarifications/changes/decisions of individual items to proposal C. So the results of questions 2-9 will only apply if overall proposal C passes.

2) COURSES
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the 100-cone course type with cone penalties? YES NO
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the 100-cone course type (0 cone allowance)? YES NO
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the 50-cone course type? YES NO
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the 25-cone course type? YES NO

3) AGE GROUPS
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the Masters age group (45yrs +)? YES NO
Shall the ISSA recognize world records in the Junior age group (17yrs -)? YES NO


4) TIMING
What rule shall be specified for timing requirements?
A) Tape Switches shall be used (activated with skateboard front wheels)
B) Light Beam shall be used (approximately ankle height)
C) Either Light-Beam or Tape Switches may be used, but the START must be identical to the FINISH.
D) No additional timing specification is needed.

5) START METHOD Distance (100-Cone and 50-Cone Courses)
What rule shall be specified for the distance from the start to the 1st cone?
A) No rule is needed
B) The start (end of ramp or push-start area) shall be 4m from the 1st cone.

6) START METHOD 100-Cone Course
What rule shall be specified for the start method?
A) Push-Start
B) Ramp-Start (per ISSA racing rules)
C) Either Ramp-Start or Push-Start
D) No specified start method

7) START METHOD 50-Cone Course
What rule shall be specified for the start method?
A) Push-Start
B) Ramp-Start (per ISSA racing rules)
C) Either Ramp-Start or Push-Start
D) No specified start method

8) START METHOD 25-Cone Course
What rule shall be specified for the start method?
A) Push-start with push-foot within the start box
B) No additional rule needed.

9) INITIAL RECORDS TO BE ENTERED
If the specified age-group and course-type is approved, should the following World Records be initially recorded?

• 100-Cone Male-Open: 20.56s Luca Giammarco YES NO
• 100-Cone Female-Open: 23.55s Yelena Sinadolova YES NO
• 100-Cone Male-Junior: 33.98s Alexey Alekseyev YES NO
• 50-Cone Male-Open: 12.83s Martin Drayton YES NO
• 25-Cone Male-Open: 8.112s Michael Dong YES NO[/quote]